Discussion Forum: Thread 254531

 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Jul 9, 2019 04:48
 Subject: Benny's torso 973pb1652c02
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 Topic: Catalog
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yorbrick (666)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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This part is listed as

 
Part No: 973pb1652c02  Name: Torso Space Classic Moon with Simulated Wear Pattern / Blue Left Arm / Blue Left Hand / Pearl Dark Gray Mechanical Right Arm / Black Right Claw
* 
973pb1652c02 (Inv) Torso Space Classic Moon with Simulated Wear Pattern / Blue Left Arm / Blue Left Hand / Pearl Dark Gray Mechanical Right Arm / Black Right Claw
Parts: Minifigure, Torso Assembly

I have opened seven of the CMF versions and they do not come like this in the
set. The torso comes without the robot arm attached. Is there are reason having
only the assembly in the inventory, and not having it how it actually comes in
the CMF set?
 Author: randyf View Messages Posted By randyf
 Posted: Jul 9, 2019 05:12
 Subject: Re: Benny's torso 973pb1652c02
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randyf (361)

Location:  USA, Ohio
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In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  This part is listed as

 
Part No: 973pb1652c02  Name: Torso Space Classic Moon with Simulated Wear Pattern / Blue Left Arm / Blue Left Hand / Pearl Dark Gray Mechanical Right Arm / Black Right Claw
* 
973pb1652c02 (Inv) Torso Space Classic Moon with Simulated Wear Pattern / Blue Left Arm / Blue Left Hand / Pearl Dark Gray Mechanical Right Arm / Black Right Claw
Parts: Minifigure, Torso Assembly

I have opened seven of the CMF versions and they do not come like this in the
set. The torso comes without the robot arm attached. Is there are reason having
only the assembly in the inventory, and not having it how it actually comes in
the CMF set?

Precedence.

All of the other torsos that use
 
Part No: 62691  Name: Arm Mechanical
* 
62691 Arm Mechanical
Parts: Minifigure, Body Part
are handled the same way.

https://www.bricklink.com/catalogItemIn.asp?P=62691&in=P

Cheers,
Randy
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Jul 9, 2019 05:28
 Subject: Re: Benny's torso 973pb1652c02
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yorbrick (666)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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  Precedence.

All of the other torsos that use
 
Part No: 62691  Name: Arm Mechanical
* 
62691 Arm Mechanical
Parts: Minifigure, Body Part
are handled the same way.


OK, so it's historical. Will this ever be changed to reflect what is actually
received in a set rather than what is needed for a set, like the debate about
the sprued parts now being the whole sprue rather than the required parts only?

If parting these out it is necessary to assemble them, and I don't want to
assemble them if they later become the individual parts.
 Author: axaday View Messages Posted By axaday
 Posted: Jul 9, 2019 05:45
 Subject: Re: Benny's torso 973pb1652c02
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axaday (3675)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  
  Precedence.

All of the other torsos that use
 
Part No: 62691  Name: Arm Mechanical
* 
62691 Arm Mechanical
Parts: Minifigure, Body Part
are handled the same way.


OK, so it's historical. Will this ever be changed to reflect what is actually
received in a set rather than what is needed for a set, like the debate about
the sprued parts now being the whole sprue rather than the required parts only?

If parting these out it is necessary to assemble them, and I don't want to
assemble them if they later become the individual parts.

Please don't assemble ANY of the minifig parts if you are selling it to me.
Why would this imply that anyone wanted you to do that?
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Jul 9, 2019 06:56
 Subject: Re: Benny's torso 973pb1652c02
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yorbrick (666)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Yorbricks
In Catalog, axaday writes:
  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  
  Precedence.

All of the other torsos that use
 
Part No: 62691  Name: Arm Mechanical
* 
62691 Arm Mechanical
Parts: Minifigure, Body Part
are handled the same way.


OK, so it's historical. Will this ever be changed to reflect what is actually
received in a set rather than what is needed for a set, like the debate about
the sprued parts now being the whole sprue rather than the required parts only?

If parting these out it is necessary to assemble them, and I don't want to
assemble them if they later become the individual parts.

Please don't assemble ANY of the minifig parts if you are selling it to me.
Why would this imply that anyone wanted you to do that?

Because at Bricklink you cannot sell the torso assembly as it is supplied by
LEGO. There is not a catalogue entry for the torso, arm and hand and robot arm
without the claw, as supplied by LEGO. To match the catalogue entry, you need
to add the robot arm.

It implies you have to either add the arm to the torso, or bag them separately
to keep them together, or store them unattached but need to remember to add the
robot arm, and hope the buyer finds the robot arm before complaining that it
is missing the arm.
 Author: 62Bricks View Messages Posted By 62Bricks
 Posted: Jul 9, 2019 07:41
 Subject: Re: Benny's torso 973pb1652c02
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62Bricks (748)

Location:  USA, Missouri
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In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  In Catalog, axaday writes:
  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  
  Precedence.

All of the other torsos that use
 
Part No: 62691  Name: Arm Mechanical
* 
62691 Arm Mechanical
Parts: Minifigure, Body Part
are handled the same way.


OK, so it's historical. Will this ever be changed to reflect what is actually
received in a set rather than what is needed for a set, like the debate about
the sprued parts now being the whole sprue rather than the required parts only?

If parting these out it is necessary to assemble them, and I don't want to
assemble them if they later become the individual parts.

Please don't assemble ANY of the minifig parts if you are selling it to me.
Why would this imply that anyone wanted you to do that?

Because at Bricklink you cannot sell the torso assembly as it is supplied by
LEGO. There is not a catalogue entry for the torso, arm and hand and robot arm
without the claw, as supplied by LEGO. To match the catalogue entry, you need
to add the robot arm.

It implies you have to either add the arm to the torso, or bag them separately
to keep them together, or store them unattached but need to remember to add the
robot arm, and hope the buyer finds the robot arm before complaining that it
is missing the arm.

Another illustrative example of why the "consistency" approach doesn't work.
In cases like this, the admins have to choose which practice to be "consistent"
with, which creates inconsistency.

The way to avoid it is to have guidelines that are as simple as possible. "Define
parts based on how they are found in a sealed set" is one simple guideline. If
we always follow that guideline, then the set inventories take care of themselves
and parting out new sets works. If we make an exception, then make more exceptions
because of that first exception, then ultimately ignore the guideline because
"That's they way we've always done it," the guideline has lost its meaning.
When faced with a dilemma like this partly-assembled torso, the decision should
be made in favor of the more basic principle, not later exceptions.

I think it is clear that many of the inconsistencies in the catalog are the result
of implementing ever-more complicated "rules" that are put in place to handle
exceptions rather than basing decisions on a few simple guidelines.

It should surprise nobody that people attracted to Lego are also really into
elaborate systems, but the secret to Lego's success as a system is that it
is not elaborate. Just a few rules create a very flexible system.
 Author: axaday View Messages Posted By axaday
 Posted: Jul 9, 2019 08:12
 Subject: Re: Benny's torso 973pb1652c02
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axaday (3675)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  Because at Bricklink you cannot sell the torso assembly as it is supplied by
LEGO. There is not a catalogue entry for the torso, arm and hand and robot arm
without the claw, as supplied by LEGO. To match the catalogue entry, you need
to add the robot arm.

Do you really want to sell a torso with 1 arm? Is there is a market for that?

  It implies you have to either add the arm to the torso, or bag them separately
to keep them together, or store them unattached but need to remember to add the
robot arm, and hope the buyer finds the robot arm before complaining that it
is missing the arm.

If you attach the arm one time, it is still new according to the rules. That
option is on the table. Bagging them separately and together are both on the
table, together being probably preferable if you are afraid the buyer will not
find the arm.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Jul 9, 2019 08:44
 Subject: Re: Benny's torso 973pb1652c02
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yorbrick (666)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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Store: Yorbricks
In Catalog, axaday writes:
  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  Because at Bricklink you cannot sell the torso assembly as it is supplied by
LEGO. There is not a catalogue entry for the torso, arm and hand and robot arm
without the claw, as supplied by LEGO. To match the catalogue entry, you need
to add the robot arm.

Do you really want to sell a torso with 1 arm? Is there is a market for that?


It is what lego supplied. It has two arms, just no robot arm / claw extension.
I don't know if there is a market for it, as it cannot be sold that way.

And there are plenty of listings for torsos without arms, whether there is a
market for them or not. They all get catalogued even though this is not how lego
supply them. Yet these pieces don't get listed as they are supplied - but
do get catalogued if you either add another part or remove some parts.
 Author: axaday View Messages Posted By axaday
 Posted: Jul 9, 2019 09:06
 Subject: Re: Benny's torso 973pb1652c02
 Viewed: 33 times
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axaday (3675)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  It is what lego supplied. It has two arms, just no robot arm / claw extension.
I don't know if there is a market for it, as it cannot be sold that way.

Isn't what Lego supplies what is in the picture, just not all put together?
You just said it has two arms, but it doesn't unless you are counting the
unattached robot arm and claw. The catalog picture for a minifigure shows the
minifigure assembled. Most catalog pictures for sets show the set assembled.
But your customers are not expecting you to take what Lego supplied and assemble
it for them like the picture.

  And there are plenty of listings for torsos without arms, whether there is a
market for them or not. They all get catalogued even though this is not how lego
supply them. Yet these pieces don't get listed as they are supplied - but
do get catalogued if you either add another part or remove some parts.

Yes, there are listings for EVERY torso with arms. While Lego never supplied
them with no arms and the market for unattached torsos varies greaty among them,
the point of having every torso in the catalog is that every torso is a discrete
Lego element. The catalog tries to contain every discrete Lego element, but
has always been cautious about having listings for combinations of pieces. A
full minifig, yes. Some big figs and brickbuilt animals now, yes. Combined
turntables that sometimes came assembled in sets, yes. Some combinations that
are hard to take back apart without damage, yes. But some minifig parts in an
obviously incomplete assembly because Lego supplied them? I don't see the
point and it opens a giant can of worms. Did you know that through the 80s and
90s, minifig torsos usually came with their heads attached? Should we have a
listing for each of those head/torso combinations because Lego supplied them
that way? Does anyone really want a head and torso with no hat or legs? Or
a torso with 1 arm and 1 hand? I doubt it unless the price is very low.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Jul 9, 2019 09:26
 Subject: Re: Benny's torso 973pb1652c02
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yorbrick (666)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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   You just said it has two arms, but it doesn't unless you are counting the
unattached robot arm and claw.

 
Part No: 981  Name: Arm, Left
* 
981 Arm, Left
Parts: Minifigure, Body Part

 
Part No: 62691  Name: Arm Mechanical
* 
62691 Arm Mechanical
Parts: Minifigure, Body Part

I make that two arms.

  The catalog picture for a minifigure shows the
minifigure assembled. Most catalog pictures for sets show the set assembled.
But your customers are not expecting you to take what Lego supplied and assemble
it for them like the picture.

I agree. Most customers buying new parts expect me to take the new parts as supplied
by LEGO and send those. They do not expect me to assemble them. But I cannot
sell the parts that LEGO supplied here, I have to sell either a combination of
them or pull them apart. There is no option to sell it as it was originally supplied.

It is the inconsistency that is a problem. Going back to the sprues, LEGO did
not intend them to be used according to the pictures of the sets. But BL catalogues
these parts as coming on a sprue. They are listed as coming that way in the set,
whether or not all the parts are needed. There is an option to sell the parts
connected to a sprue (or in a bag) as supplied or sell the parts individually.
Whereas here, they are not listed as they come in the set. There is no option
to sell the parts as supplied.
 Author: randyf View Messages Posted By randyf
 Posted: Jul 9, 2019 12:53
 Subject: Re: Benny's torso 973pb1652c02
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randyf (361)

Location:  USA, Ohio
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In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  I agree. Most customers buying new parts expect me to take the new parts as supplied
by LEGO and send those. They do not expect me to assemble them. But I cannot
sell the parts that LEGO supplied here, I have to sell either a combination of
them or pull them apart. There is no option to sell it as it was originally supplied.

My first reply to you was just an answer to your question. I do not agree with
the inconsistency, also, but I am not a catalog associate yet who can do anything
about it. I would be happy to have Marek add it to the Catalog Roadmap for consideration
of being worked on, but it would be rather low on the priority list. Although,
it would not be a big issue to tackle, so could be done rather quickly.

Cheers,
Randy
 Author: 62Bricks View Messages Posted By 62Bricks
 Posted: Jul 9, 2019 10:21
 Subject: Re: Benny's torso 973pb1652c02
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62Bricks (748)

Location:  USA, Missouri
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In Catalog, axaday writes:
  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  It is what lego supplied. It has two arms, just no robot arm / claw extension.
I don't know if there is a market for it, as it cannot be sold that way.

Isn't what Lego supplies what is in the picture, just not all put together?
You just said it has two arms, but it doesn't unless you are counting the
unattached robot arm and claw. The catalog picture for a minifigure shows the
minifigure assembled. Most catalog pictures for sets show the set assembled.
But your customers are not expecting you to take what Lego supplied and assemble
it for them like the picture.

  And there are plenty of listings for torsos without arms, whether there is a
market for them or not. They all get catalogued even though this is not how lego
supply them. Yet these pieces don't get listed as they are supplied - but
do get catalogued if you either add another part or remove some parts.

Yes, there are listings for EVERY torso with arms. While Lego never supplied
them with no arms and the market for unattached torsos varies greaty among them,
the point of having every torso in the catalog is that every torso is a discrete
Lego element. The catalog tries to contain every discrete Lego element, but
has always been cautious about having listings for combinations of pieces. A
full minifig, yes. Some big figs and brickbuilt animals now, yes. Combined
turntables that sometimes came assembled in sets, yes. Some combinations that
are hard to take back apart without damage, yes. But some minifig parts in an
obviously incomplete assembly because Lego supplied them? I don't see the
point and it opens a giant can of worms. Did you know that through the 80s and
90s, minifig torsos usually came with their heads attached? Should we have a
listing for each of those head/torso combinations because Lego supplied them
that way? Does anyone really want a head and torso with no hat or legs? Or
a torso with 1 arm and 1 hand? I doubt it unless the price is very low.

I think the "can of worms" is when BL makes exceptions based on precedent in
one case, but ignores precedent in other cases. The squishy definition of what
merits a separate entry in the catalog is part of what has led to issues like
this.

There may indeed be people who want to buy the torso/head assemblies from the
older sets, and there would be no harm in adding them to the catalog and including
them in inventories. But an exception has been made. We are told that some assemblies
need to be deleted from the catalog because they were never packaged that way,
yet some assemblies that were issued as new are not? Why is that?

Well, it isn't based on what people want, obviously. The market for 1x1 round
plates on the sprue is tiny compared to that for the individual plates, yet that
is the part inventoried in sets where it appeared. The market for the 1x4 hinge
assembly is many times larger than the market for the individual pieces, yet
the assembly is marked for deletion.

Consistent application of a set of simple guidelines would eliminate a lot of
these issues. In the past - and even now - it seems when faced with conflicts
like this the admins have chosen to add complexity rather than opt for simplicity.
Either way is going to result in apparent inconsistencies, but the way that requires
the least amount of waffling and explanation is preferable, in my opinion.