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| | | Author: | Graham.  | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 04:27 | | Subject: | Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 300 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | | Status: | Open | | Vote: | [Yes|No] | |
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| Dealing with stores with unreasonable terms
- that only become clear after being invoiced.
I would like to propose an extra simple step to the process of forming the contract:
-
step 1: - buyer clicks "complete order" (was submit order) - usually without
foreknowledge of invoice total (some stores, including mine make it clear but
a vast number do not)
step 2: - seller sends buyer invoice with demand for payment which now reveals
all the "extra's" that may have been hidden.
and the new step:- (ADD new "button" accept/decline)
step 3: - buyer either accepts invoice and makes payment, or declines - this
would give the buyer the option to not accept unreasonable fees.
Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
"Extra work"? do bare in mind a buyer has spent some time forming the order,
very few fall thru (not one for me yet), they are only likely to pull out due
to unreasonable fees in the first place!
Having low prices and high added fees isn't the best business model for anybody.
I am aware of the demands from Germany - perhaps that would form the Global model?
Thank you Graham
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| | | | | Author: | bricksalabim | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 05:25 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 76 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Dealing with stores with unreasonable terms
- that only become clear after being invoiced.
I would like to propose an extra simple step to the process of forming the contract:
-
step 1: - buyer clicks "complete order" (was submit order) - usually without
foreknowledge of invoice total (some stores, including mine make it clear but
a vast number do not)
step 2: - seller sends buyer invoice with demand for payment which now reveals
all the "extra's" that may have been hidden.
and the new step:- (ADD new "button" accept/decline)
step 3: - buyer either accepts invoice and makes payment, or declines - this
would give the buyer the option to not accept unreasonable fees.
Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
"Extra work"? do bare in mind a buyer has spent some time forming the order,
very few fall thru (not one for me yet), they are only likely to pull out due
to unreasonable fees in the first place!
Having low prices and high added fees isn't the best business model for anybody.
I am aware of the demands from Germany - perhaps that would form the Global model?
Thank you Graham
|
Hi Graham
I would not have any problem with that - I have no hidden fees and always try
to find the cheapest shipping for my buyers. I don't mind extra work (I have
just a small store and I love handling LEGO - even sorting and packing). Sometimes
it happens that the post office rejects my package for 1 gram too much, and I
have to go home (10 km), repack and return to the post office - no problem, that's
customer service for me. Last week I had an oversea order to be sent by Luxembourg
Post (half an hour drive, but costs only EUR 2.20). This may be 2 cm thick, and
it was difficult to pack the minifigs with helmets and visor for cas166 safely
into a 2 cm mail. And when I came to the post office there, they said it's 2.01
cm thick instead of 2.00 and rejected it. Ok, I didn't want to make my buyer
wait for the next trip to Luxembourg. So I went to a friend over there, we searched
his place for something thinner than my styrofoam/cardboard sandwich, and I repacked
everything to return it to the post office. Now it went through (and meanwhile
arrived without damage).
BUT: I see problems for big stores. Imagine that somebody (having to pay employees)
has to pull an order of several hundred parts before being able to determine
the shipping costs (and there are countries where it is much more difficult to
determine the shipping costs than in Germany). And if the order is declined,
he would have to restore hundreds of parts. I don't think that this is possible
for the big stores.
Why not simply change the rules: (1) no hidden or extra fees allowed (should
be included in the prices, this even makes comparison easier for buyers and would
improve the price guide), no lot limits (this can always be handled with bulk
amounts and/or minimum buy) and (2) clear shipping tables in store terms and
only actual shipping fee allowed
Renate
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| | | | | | | Author: | Rbobo | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 14:25 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 47 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| | | Why not simply change the rules: (1) no hidden or extra fees allowed (should
be included in the prices, this even makes comparison easier for buyers and would
improve the price guide), no lot limits (this can always be handled with bulk
amounts and/or minimum buy) and (2) clear shipping tables in store terms and
only actual shipping fee allowed
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1) Hidden fees, fine. But there are real costs to shipping an individual order
that cannot easily be distributed among parts. Were such a proposal passed I
would have to either have a minimum order amount (to guarantee that enough parts
were ordered to cover these set costs) or raise my prices to ridiculous levels
to insure that I don't get bled to death on $0.13 orders.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Rolf | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 17:30 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Rbobo writes:
| | | | Why not simply change the rules: (1) no hidden or extra fees allowed (should
be included in the prices, this even makes comparison easier for buyers and would
improve the price guide), no lot limits (this can always be handled with bulk
amounts and/or minimum buy) and (2) clear shipping tables in store terms and
only actual shipping fee allowed
|
1) Hidden fees, fine. But there are real costs to shipping an individual order
that cannot easily be distributed among parts. Were such a proposal passed I
would have to either have a minimum order amount (to guarantee that enough parts
were ordered to cover these set costs) or raise my prices to ridiculous levels
to insure that I don't get bled to death on $0.13 orders.
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That is what minimum orders is for. Mine is set to $3.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Rbobo | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 17:56 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Rolf writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rbobo writes:
| | | | Why not simply change the rules: (1) no hidden or extra fees allowed (should
be included in the prices, this even makes comparison easier for buyers and would
improve the price guide), no lot limits (this can always be handled with bulk
amounts and/or minimum buy) and (2) clear shipping tables in store terms and
only actual shipping fee allowed
|
1) Hidden fees, fine. But there are real costs to shipping an individual order
that cannot easily be distributed among parts. Were such a proposal passed I
would have to either have a minimum order amount (to guarantee that enough parts
were ordered to cover these set costs) or raise my prices to ridiculous levels
to insure that I don't get bled to death on $0.13 orders.
|
That is what minimum orders is for. Mine is set to $3.
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And for those that want to limit buyers to orders over an arbitrary amount that's
fine. I do not.
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| | | | | Author: | pollie1213 | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 06:01 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 61 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| Voted No.
My store terms are very clear, if you take the time to read them.
I always Invoice after picking the order for my buyer.
So if he declines the Invoice, i have had a lot of work for nothing. Only because
the buyer did not read the store terms.
On the other side I do feel that you should be able to cancel any order in which
the selleer is making up all sorts of extra costs that are not shown, in number,
in his or her store terms.
In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Dealing with stores with unreasonable terms
- that only become clear after being invoiced.
I would like to propose an extra simple step to the process of forming the contract:
-
step 1: - buyer clicks "complete order" (was submit order) - usually without
foreknowledge of invoice total (some stores, including mine make it clear but
a vast number do not)
step 2: - seller sends buyer invoice with demand for payment which now reveals
all the "extra's" that may have been hidden.
and the new step:- (ADD new "button" accept/decline)
step 3: - buyer either accepts invoice and makes payment, or declines - this
would give the buyer the option to not accept unreasonable fees.
Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
"Extra work"? do bare in mind a buyer has spent some time forming the order,
very few fall thru (not one for me yet), they are only likely to pull out due
to unreasonable fees in the first place!
Having low prices and high added fees isn't the best business model for anybody.
I am aware of the demands from Germany - perhaps that would form the Global model?
Thank you Graham
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| | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 06:04 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Dealing with stores with unreasonable terms
- that only become clear after being invoiced.
I would like to propose an extra simple step to the process of forming the contract:
-
step 1: - buyer clicks "complete order" (was submit order) - usually without
foreknowledge of invoice total (some stores, including mine make it clear but
a vast number do not)
step 2: - seller sends buyer invoice with demand for payment which now reveals
all the "extra's" that may have been hidden.
and the new step:- (ADD new "button" accept/decline)
step 3: - buyer either accepts invoice and makes payment, or declines - this
would give the buyer the option to not accept unreasonable fees.
|
Leggodt.nl does not have unreasonable fees, heck we have no fees at ALL.
However, after pulling e.g. a 400+ lot order I would not like at all the buyer
having the option to decline the invoice despite the fact that it is very reasonable:
no fees, just packaging and actual shipping cost.
Unreasonable fees should be a legitimate reason to cancel the order by the buyer
without having to face a penalty of -fb. The unreasonability should be well defined
and provable (easy: it is fact in the invoice).
The additional step of a new button is redundant imo.
| |
Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
"Extra work"? do bare in mind a buyer has spent some time forming the order,
very few fall thru (not one for me yet), they are only likely to pull out due
to unreasonable fees in the first place!
Having low prices and high added fees isn't the best business model for anybody.
I am aware of the demands from Germany - perhaps that would form the Global model?
Thank you Graham
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| | | | | Author: | wyldkat1976 | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 06:18 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| I disagree, not that I have anything to hide, but we all have enough problems
at the moment with NPB's anyway. Like most people I invoice people after picking
the order so errors can be found before invoice is paid. This option would leave
it open for buyers to abuse. You can could spend hours picking an order, then
invoice the buyer, who could then just think "I don't want them bits anymore",
or "I have seen somewhere cheaper in the mean time" and simply decline the invoice.
The seller then can do nothing as the buyer is not an NPB anymore due to your
suggestion of giving them the free option of simply choosing to accept or decline
the invoice. Your time wasted and buyer is free to do same to numerous others,
because there would be no way of warning others as feedback could not be left
and a problem cannot be raised.
Sorry mine is a big 'no' to this suggestion as it is a step towards the fleabay
system of wrapping the buyer in bubble wrap, allowing them to always be right,
even when they are scamming you.
Kev
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| | | | | | | Author: | wyldkat1976 | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 06:21 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| Also this would allow fishing for the best price; Place 12 orders for the same
items with 12 different stores, wait until they all invoice you, and then choose
the best price and decline the rest.
Kev
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| | | | | | | Author: | Brickwilbo | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 06:42 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, wyldkat1976 writes:
| | I disagree, not that I have anything to hide, but we all have enough problems
at the moment with NPB's anyway. Like most people I invoice people after picking
the order so errors can be found before invoice is paid. This option would leave
it open for buyers to abuse. You can could spend hours picking an order, then
invoice the buyer, who could then just think "I don't want them bits anymore",
or "I have seen somewhere cheaper in the mean time" and simply decline the invoice.
The seller then can do nothing as the buyer is not an NPB anymore due to your
suggestion of giving them the free option of simply choosing to accept or decline
the invoice. Your time wasted and buyer is free to do same to numerous others,
because there would be no way of warning others as feedback could not be left
and a problem cannot be raised.
Sorry mine is a big 'no' to this suggestion as it is a step towards the fleabay
system of wrapping the buyer in bubble wrap, allowing them to always be right,
even when they are scamming you.
Kev
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Agreed. (also nothing to hide).
I've read similar suggestions before, all declined with these arguments.
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| | | | | Author: | D.Rae.McCormick | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 07:28 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 64 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Dealing with stores with unreasonable terms
- that only become clear after being invoiced.
I would like to propose an extra simple step to the process of forming the contract:
-
step 1: - buyer clicks "complete order" (was submit order) - usually without
foreknowledge of invoice total (some stores, including mine make it clear but
a vast number do not)
step 2: - seller sends buyer invoice with demand for payment which now reveals
all the "extra's" that may have been hidden.
and the new step:- (ADD new "button" accept/decline)
step 3: - buyer either accepts invoice and makes payment, or declines - this
would give the buyer the option to not accept unreasonable fees.
Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
"Extra work"? do bare in mind a buyer has spent some time forming the order,
very few fall thru (not one for me yet), they are only likely to pull out due
to unreasonable fees in the first place!
Having low prices and high added fees isn't the best business model for anybody.
I am aware of the demands from Germany - perhaps that would form the Global model?
Thank you Graham
|
I vote "no" as well. I charge exact postage plus $1.00,
so I have no hidden fees to protect. I just think your
proposal would be a pain, open to abuse, and there is
NO NEED.
Hidden fees are already a listed reason for cancelling an order:
"Seller provided a shipping fee that was too high"
Yes, maybe you'd get a retaliatory feedback from a jerky seller,
but all you'd have to do is tell the truth in your reply.
A "black mark" as a buyer does not prevent anyone from buying
(OR SELLING) unless it gives them a negative feedback TOTAL.
And a "black mark" for outing a seller for having unreasonable
hidden fees would be a badge of honor. One tell-it-all feedback
would be enough to cure a seller of bad habits, without penalizing
*all* sellers like your proposal would.
~Rae
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| | | | | Author: | jeslego | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 07:43 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 65 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Dealing with stores with unreasonable terms
- that only become clear after being invoiced.
I would like to propose an extra simple step to the process of forming the contract:
-
step 1: - buyer clicks "complete order" (was submit order) - usually without
foreknowledge of invoice total (some stores, including mine make it clear but
a vast number do not)
step 2: - seller sends buyer invoice with demand for payment which now reveals
all the "extra's" that may have been hidden.
and the new step:- (ADD new "button" accept/decline)
step 3: - buyer either accepts invoice and makes payment, or declines - this
would give the buyer the option to not accept unreasonable fees.
Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
"Extra work"? do bare in mind a buyer has spent some time forming the order,
very few fall thru (not one for me yet), they are only likely to pull out due
to unreasonable fees in the first place!
Having low prices and high added fees isn't the best business model for anybody.
I am aware of the demands from Germany - perhaps that would form the Global model?
Thank you Graham
|
I'd like to think that my fees are not hidden. But that does not mean that every
buyer takes the time to read the store terms before placing an order. In fact,
most new buyers do not.
If Bricklink is going to start offering buyers the option of backing out, it
should only be offered to newish buyers (1 month? max 3 orders?) and it should
only be offered once. The other responses on this thread make clear why buyers
should not determine when a transaction is fully agreed upon.
Another alternative would be to create a "fees" tab where sellers would be responsible
for detailing their various handling charges. If it is not there, it can not
be charged.
jes
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| | | | | Author: | FigBits | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 08:42 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 62 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | ...
and the new step:- (ADD new "button" accept/decline)
step 3: - buyer either accepts invoice and makes payment, or declines - this
would give the buyer the option to not accept unreasonable fees.
Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
|
It's usually a bad idea to ascribe negative motivations to anyone who disagrees
with you.
--
Marc.
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| | | | | Author: | steekstra | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 08:57 | | Subject: | (Cancelled) | | Viewed: | 65 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| | (Cancelled) |
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| | | | | | | Author: | steekstra | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 09:05 | | Subject: | (Cancelled) | | Viewed: | 63 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| | (Cancelled) |
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| | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 09:21 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 62 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
|
If have no hidden fees, they are well-expressed in my store terms, but my vote
is still 'no'...
This would lead to having buyers 'cancel' orders because either they didn't read
properly (oops I didn't read, so I better cancel this one) either they compare
to other stores...
I have no problem with fees (any) as long as they are well expressed in the terms
(and easy to understand: not the case in some shops when it comes down to 'lot'
fees)
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| | | | | Author: | Reki_Lobsheek | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 09:32 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 61 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| you have my "yes" if the porposal includes an automated blocking to the store
in question, so abuse can be avoided.
Meaning, a clear banner stating "if you click "deny" you agree to being blocked
by this seller and will not have the option to place an order in this store again".
I think all fees should be made clear in advance (meaning be written in the store's
TOS) and that any unmentioned fees should be able to lead to a cancellation of
the order and an automated negative FB for the seller including the denial of
leaving FB themselves.
I believe any situation in life enholds rights and duties for both parties involved.
You have the right to drive your car on the road (if you have a permit that is),
but that enholds the duty to follow ALL traffic laws. If you do not know the
traffic laws, it will not free you from a fine when breaking them. 
Same should go for Bricklink IMO: clicking "submit" on an order means you AGREE
to the store's TOS and all complaining afterwards is 20/20 hindsight and should
not be accomadated in any way.
ONLY when unexpected fees arise, but that is in my experience very rarily the
case on Bricklink, your proposal would make sense.
Reki
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| | | | | Author: | mnementh | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 09:42 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 90 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
|
I suggest that you consider the implications of the solution that you suggest
rather than cast aspersions on those sellers that may oppose it.
Sellers will not do the work of packing orders to get accurate shipping if the
buyer can just decide they do not want the order. This will lead to estimating
the shipping costs, and sellers will always err on the side of over-charging.
So, in the end you may eliminate hidden fees but you will pay more for shipping
anyways.
I would still favor an automated checkout process, but this is for convenience
and the elimination of NPB's. It will not lower fees, it will likely raise shipping
costs for the reasons stated above. But at least you will know.
Troy
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| | | | | | | Author: | Graham. | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 12:40 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, mnementh writes:
| | In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
|
I suggest that you consider the implications of the solution that you suggest
rather than cast aspersions on those sellers that may oppose it.
|
I did not mean to do that - apologies
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| | | | | | | Author: | Graham. | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 12:59 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 62 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, mnementh writes:
| | In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
|
I suggest that you consider the implications of the solution that you suggest
rather than cast aspersions on those sellers that may oppose it.
Sellers will not do the work of packing orders to get accurate shipping if the
buyer can just decide they do not want the order. This will lead to estimating
the shipping costs, and sellers will always err on the side of over-charging.
So, in the end you may eliminate hidden fees but you will pay more for shipping
anyways.
I would still favor an automated checkout process, but this is for convenience
and the elimination of NPB's. It will not lower fees, it will likely raise shipping
costs for the reasons stated above. But at least you will know.
Troy
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Personally I would rather pay more and know exactly what I'm in for,
to date I have not had a single NPB - my terms are simple and clear maybe that
helps, it's on a win some loose some basis, costs are slightly high on small
orders, but low on larger orders, but in any case as shipping is charged at a
flat rate (within UK) and based on cart weight WW - anyone who places an order
will know exactly what they will be charged when invoiced.
I cant agree with "not knowing shipping prices" some state - it's no mystery
and scales are VERY cheap to buy.
As added at the end :-
What about Germany?
BrickLink will have to comply with the (I think its called) "button law" - perhaps
that would form the Global model?
This is the solution - you should be provided a grand total BEFORE you are required
to submit an order -
Bricklink is the ONLY WWW venue I am aware of where FULL price is not revealed
until after receiving an invoice.
I would say that at least 30% of orders I have placed ended up costing more
than anticipated from store T's & C's, not once has it been less. and on at least
4 occasions a rip off.
Graham
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | wyldkat1976 | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 13:22 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| I would give up if I was you, I haven't seen many people supporting this proposal
in this thread, and all for the same reasons. If you haven't had any NPB's, then
it is down to luck, not because you are an exemplary seller. NPB's are for many
reasons and not just because of high shipping costs. In fact the NPB's I have
had, not one has been because of shipping costs. The proposal is too flawed and
will cause far more issues than it solves. In fact as this thread has gone on,
it appears to have become more of a "look what a good seller I am and I do everything
right" than addressing the issue. Most of the people who have taken the time
to read, follow and comment on this thread are seasoned sellers with godd feedbacks
and reputations, and they all disagree, so therefore by your implication that
only people with something to hide would have a reason to object to it, you are
saying we are all bad sellers and our terms are laced with hidden charges. I
for one certainly am not. I have a table of actual shipping costs that it will
cost per weight, tell people to ask for a shipping quote for orders over £46
in value as they will only be sent by insured tracked service, and clearly state
that the only extra charge we impose is a 50c handling charge for orders under
$2.00 total. Nothing, no surprises, we even have weight enabled in the cart to
allow people to see the weight as they order. In fact today I have just sent
a message to a new buyer (zero feedback) who has ordered 18c of parts to be shipped
to USA, to check they are aware that these 18c of parts will cost $5.98 with
shipping and the handling charge of 50c, and gave them the option to cancel the
order before I send the invoice in case they can get a better deal nearer to
home. Does that sound like trying to hide fees?
Kev
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | wyldkat1976 | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 13:27 | | Subject: | (Cancelled) | | Viewed: | 68 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| | (Cancelled) |
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Rbobo | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 14:35 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 69 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| | | This is the solution - you should be provided a grand total BEFORE you are required
to submit an order -
Bricklink is the ONLY WWW venue I am aware of where FULL price is not revealed
until after receiving an invoice.
|
Okay, try this experiment:
1) Find a bolt and screw supply company in another country.
2) Go to their website and place and try to find a clean, easy to use interface
for buying individual parts.
3) Place an order for 50 different types of parts in quantities ranging from
1 to 100.
4) Checkout immediately without having to wait for an invoice.
4) Demand to pay only actual shipping with no markup.
Let me know how this goes. Bricklink has a different checkout process because
there is simply nothing out there similar.
Most venues are not multinational. Most venues do not deal with large quantities
of small, inexpensive parts that can be ordered individually or in bulk. And
no others (that I know of) have our culture of using actual shipping costs rather
and inflated flat shipping costs.
Which of these attributes do you want to give up?
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Stacey_Love | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 15:03 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 57 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Rbobo writes:
| | | | This is the solution - you should be provided a grand total BEFORE you are required
to submit an order -
Bricklink is the ONLY WWW venue I am aware of where FULL price is not revealed
until after receiving an invoice.
|
Okay, try this experiment:
1) Find a bolt and screw supply company in another country.
2) Go to their website and place and try to find a clean, easy to use interface
for buying individual parts.
3) Place an order for 50 different types of parts in quantities ranging from
1 to 100.
4) Checkout immediately without having to wait for an invoice.
4) Demand to pay only actual shipping with no markup.
Let me know how this goes. Bricklink has a different checkout process because
there is simply nothing out there similar.
Most venues are not multinational. Most venues do not deal with large quantities
of small, inexpensive parts that can be ordered individually or in bulk. And
no others (that I know of) have our culture of using actual shipping costs rather
and inflated flat shipping costs.
Which of these attributes do you want to give up?
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I SO WANT A LIKE button to press !!!
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Brickwilbo | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 15:56 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, stacey_love writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rbobo writes:
| | | | This is the solution - you should be provided a grand total BEFORE you are required
to submit an order -
Bricklink is the ONLY WWW venue I am aware of where FULL price is not revealed
until after receiving an invoice.
|
Okay, try this experiment:
1) Find a bolt and screw supply company in another country.
2) Go to their website and place and try to find a clean, easy to use interface
for buying individual parts.
3) Place an order for 50 different types of parts in quantities ranging from
1 to 100.
4) Checkout immediately without having to wait for an invoice.
4) Demand to pay only actual shipping with no markup.
Let me know how this goes. Bricklink has a different checkout process because
there is simply nothing out there similar.
Most venues are not multinational. Most venues do not deal with large quantities
of small, inexpensive parts that can be ordered individually or in bulk. And
no others (that I know of) have our culture of using actual shipping costs rather
and inflated flat shipping costs.
Which of these attributes do you want to give up?
|
I SO WANT A LIKE button to press !!!
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| | | | | Author: | BricksThatStick | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 09:57 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 72 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Dealing with stores with unreasonable terms
- that only become clear after being invoiced.
|
Is it really that big a problem?
I've yet to encounter this from anyone I've bought from.
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| | | | | | | Author: | Graham. | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 12:38 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, BricksThatStick writes:
| | In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Dealing with stores with unreasonable terms
- that only become clear after being invoiced.
|
Is it really that big a problem?
I've yet to encounter this from anyone I've bought from.
|
Maybe I've been less fortunate than most!
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| | | | | Author: | aftepes | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 10:04 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 65 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Dealing with stores with unreasonable terms
- that only become clear after being invoiced.
I would like to propose an extra simple step to the process of forming the contract:
-
step 1: - buyer clicks "complete order" (was submit order) - usually without
foreknowledge of invoice total (some stores, including mine make it clear but
a vast number do not)
step 2: - seller sends buyer invoice with demand for payment which now reveals
all the "extra's" that may have been hidden.
and the new step:- (ADD new "button" accept/decline)
step 3: - buyer either accepts invoice and makes payment, or declines - this
would give the buyer the option to not accept unreasonable fees.
Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
"Extra work"? do bare in mind a buyer has spent some time forming the order,
very few fall thru (not one for me yet), they are only likely to pull out due
to unreasonable fees in the first place!
Having low prices and high added fees isn't the best business model for anybody.
I am aware of the demands from Germany - perhaps that would form the Global model?
Thank you Graham
|
No, have you thought of the abuse that this added step could produce? Or the
added work from the seller's perspective? Suppose a store has no hidden fees
and at the appropriate new step in the process the buyer decides against actually
completing the order. Is the headache needed here?
What about the buyers who choose not to read a store's terms before placing an
order? If the fees are listed, but are buried on a 5,000 word Terms & Condition
page, is this considered hidden when a buyer doesn't feel like reading?
If there are fees added to an order that are above and beyond what are posted,
you have two avenues: First, file an OCR for excessive shipping or second, leave
appropriate feedback. (The second is available even if the OCR is rejected.)
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| | | | | Author: | Graham. | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 12:48 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 63 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| What about Germany?
BrickLink will have to comply with the (I think its called) "button law" - perhaps
that would form the Global model?
This is the ultimate solution you should be provided a grand total BEFORE you
are required to submit an order - this is the ONLY WWW venue in the world where
FULL price is not revealed until after receiving an invoice.
I would say that at least 30% of orders I have placed ended up costing more
than anticipated from store T's & C's, not once has it been less. and on at least
4 occasions a rip off.
Graham
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| | | | | | | Author: | Brickwilbo | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 12:58 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 56 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | I would say that at least 30% of orders I have placed ended up costing more
than anticipated from store T's & C's, not once has it been less. and on at least
4 occasions a rip off.
Graham
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I don't see this statement reflected in your posted buyer-feedbacks.
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| | | | | | | Author: | steekstra | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 13:24 | | Subject: | (Cancelled) | | Viewed: | 62 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| | (Cancelled) |
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | steekstra | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 14:23 | | Subject: | (Cancelled) | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| | (Cancelled) |
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | steekstra | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 15:27 | | Subject: | (Cancelled) | | Viewed: | 52 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| | (Cancelled) |
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| | | | | | | Author: | bagelboybugle | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 16:00 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 49 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | What about Germany?
BrickLink will have to comply with the (I think its called) "button law" - perhaps
that would form the Global model?
This is the ultimate solution you should be provided a grand total BEFORE you
are required to submit an order - this is the ONLY WWW venue in the world where
FULL price is not revealed until after receiving an invoice.
|
Technically, this is also true in the UK. Although in enforcing price indications
law, the nature of the difficult to know for sure on postage costs thing would
likely be taken into account.
| | I would say that at least 30% of orders I have placed ended up costing more
than anticipated from store T's & C's, not once has it been less. and on at least
4 occasions a rip off.
|
Have they all been from undeclared fees? Or have some been from confusing policies
or wording that made it hard to estimate what the final price could be?
Gareth
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| | | | | Author: | PurpleDave | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 18:13 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
|
I just voted No, and I don't even have a store. I have, however, considered
the one issue that all of you sellers seem to have overlooked. If you set this
up, I guarantee that you'll have some punk kids abusing the system just for kicks,
going through as many stores as they can, placing huge orders, getting the sellers
to pull and pack the orders, and then hitting the Cancel button at the end so
their account remains untainted with NPB's and they can do it all over again.
And the entire time this process is going on, parts that _I_ might want to actually
buy are being removed from saleable inventory so I can't touch them.
I agree that it might be nice to have the German "button law" system become universal
at some point in the future (but make sure you get all the kinks worked out before
forcing it on all the other sellers). But the only way to lock out childish
abuse of the system would be to continue to force buyers to commit to the order
when placing the order.
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| | | | | Author: | lmeyer | | Posted: | Sep 9, 2012 23:25 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 55 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| No. There is no extra step needed. Reading the store's TOS is what is needed
before placing the order. We are adults here and it's not the sites' responsibility
to get you out of an order because you didn't read the TOS of the store you order
from.
People need to read store terms beforehand. If a person tries putting fees on
later after not having that in store terms, the buyer should be able to cancel.
If they are spelled out in the store's TOS and you didn't see them, don't buy
from them again, and perhaps share them with the rest of us on the forum.
Good and bad experiences help all of us here who read the forum posts. Most
people tend to want to avoid sellers who do this kind of stuff (ie nickel and
dime you to death while seemingly using enticing offers to get you to buy from
them).
In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Dealing with stores with unreasonable terms
- that only become clear after being invoiced.
I would like to propose an extra simple step to the process of forming the contract:
-
step 1: - buyer clicks "complete order" (was submit order) - usually without
foreknowledge of invoice total (some stores, including mine make it clear but
a vast number do not)
step 2: - seller sends buyer invoice with demand for payment which now reveals
all the "extra's" that may have been hidden.
and the new step:- (ADD new "button" accept/decline)
step 3: - buyer either accepts invoice and makes payment, or declines - this
would give the buyer the option to not accept unreasonable fees.
Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
"Extra work"? do bare in mind a buyer has spent some time forming the order,
very few fall thru (not one for me yet), they are only likely to pull out due
to unreasonable fees in the first place!
Having low prices and high added fees isn't the best business model for anybody.
I am aware of the demands from Germany - perhaps that would form the Global model?
Thank you Graham
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| | | | | Author: | relhak | | Posted: | Sep 10, 2012 00:23 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 49 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| I think it would be more productive to code the various types of fees that sellers
charge so they appear in the cart before checking out. Eg. standard handling
fee, international handling fee, paypal fee, international paypal fee, per-lot
fee, excessive lot fee, small order fee, etc. That way the only thing the seller
should have to put in would be the exact postage.
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| | | | | Author: | Johan.V.D. | | Posted: | Sep 12, 2012 08:14 | | Subject: | Re: Please add a step to form the contract | | Viewed: | 29 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Dealing with stores with unreasonable terms
- that only become clear after being invoiced.
I would like to propose an extra simple step to the process of forming the contract:
-
step 1: - buyer clicks "complete order" (was submit order) - usually without
foreknowledge of invoice total (some stores, including mine make it clear but
a vast number do not)
step 2: - seller sends buyer invoice with demand for payment which now reveals
all the "extra's" that may have been hidden.
and the new step:- (ADD new "button" accept/decline)
step 3: - buyer either accepts invoice and makes payment, or declines - this
would give the buyer the option to not accept unreasonable fees.
Please consider this solution as I believe the only ones who would vote against,
would be stores that HAVE hidden fees.
"Extra work"? do bare in mind a buyer has spent some time forming the order,
very few fall thru (not one for me yet), they are only likely to pull out due
to unreasonable fees in the first place!
Having low prices and high added fees isn't the best business model for anybody.
I am aware of the demands from Germany - perhaps that would form the Global model?
Thank you Graham
|
Contrary to most posters here, and looking at it from a buyers not seller perspective,
at first sight I would vote in favour of something as proposed.
However I do understand the concerns as stated by most sellers : the work it
takes to pull and pack an order, the danger of being hit by fun-buyers, the NPB
flagging being the only real defence and policing tool against this..
Afterall, though sales are called "binding contracts" here, in fact they only
are inside the bricklink world. Consumer rights and legislation about on-line
selling would probably most of the time concur if a buyer decides not to continue
the sale after receiving the invoice. Specially when dealing with a "professional"
seller.
But bricklink being and operating as it is, some house rules are needed in order
to continue functioning this way.
So I guess the proposition is not a good idea. BL needs tools to flagg people
that dont play by the rules (NPB etc..) and based on that eventually ban them.
The proposition as presented by OP gives the posibility to stay under the radar.
However, I think it wouldnt hurt to take a look at the motifs why the OS proposed
to implement his system. The misunderstandings that sometimes arise about the
full amount to pay when closing a deal.
Many posters above claim that their fees are clearly stated in their TOS, and
that buyers should read them first before submitting an order. And while everybody
of course supposes their TOS is clear on things (of course, because seller did
write it himself), several times it isn't.
Personally I never was confronted with additional costs (a lot) higher then I
expected, but I must say that I already turned away from several shops, just
because their TOS was a headache to read through, or wasnt realy clear at at
all, or difficult to compare with other shops..
I think it would help a lot if there was, or all buyers used, a kind of standard
TOS page. With that I dont mean they all need to state the same TOS rules, but
it would help buyers a lot if rules were structured and (additional) fees were
listed in a uniform way.
So once you understand a TOS page, you wouldnt have to figure it all out again
for the next shop you visit. It would just come down to comparing some figures...
just my 2 cent..
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USA, Tennessee
Germany, Rheinland-Pfalz
Netherlands, Zuid-Holland
United Kingdom, England
Canada, Ontario
Belgium, Flemish Brabant
France, Occitanie
