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| | | Author: | rmor  | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 13:13 | | Subject: | Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 145 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| Hello.
I received an order that was paid for by paypal. I sent the order in January
and now I have received it back because it has not been picked up. The customer
wants me to give him back what he paid for. He doesn't tell me why he didn't
pick it up. I told him I'll send it again if he pays the postage. But he
wants his money back. What can I do ? Thanks.
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| | | | | Author: | bobnikolov | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 13:18 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, rmor writes:
| | Hello.
I received an order that was paid for by paypal. I sent the order in January
and now I have received it back because it has not been picked up. The customer
wants me to give him back what he paid for. He doesn't tell me why he didn't
pick it up. I told him I'll send it again if he pays the postage. But he
wants his money back. What can I do ? Thanks.
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Just send the money back and move on
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| | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 13:19 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, rmor writes:
| | Hello.
I received an order that was paid for by paypal. I sent the order in January
and now I have received it back because it has not been picked up. The customer
wants me to give him back what he paid for. He doesn't tell me why he didn't
pick it up. I told him I'll send it again if he pays the postage. But he
wants his money back. What can I do ? Thanks.
|
Hi,
What’s the problem exactly? Just refund them.
If you don’t have any provision in your terms about returns (like a restocking
fee…), then you need to refund the total. (Provided the buyer is in EU… but
then, differentiating buyers is a bit petty.)
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| | | | | Author: | PlanetEarthToys | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 13:31 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, rmor writes:
| | Hello.
I received an order that was paid for by paypal. I sent the order in January
and now I have received it back because it has not been picked up. The customer
wants me to give him back what he paid for. He doesn't tell me why he didn't
pick it up. I told him I'll send it again if he pays the postage. But he
wants his money back. What can I do ? Thanks.
|
if you have the order in hand & buyer does not want to pay the postage to reship
it to them, refund the purchase price of the order, but not the shipping fees..
you do not have those shipping fee funds, those funds were used to ship the order
to the buyer , the buyer not picking up the order is a fault on the buyers end,
not yours. the initial postage fees do not exist any longer.
just relist the items & wait for them to sell again.
be sure to screenshot the tracking info for a possible PayPal dispute showing
you did your part as the seller in shipping out the order to the address the
buyer provided on the order & that the buyer did not do their part in picking
up the delivered order.
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| | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 13:35 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, PlanetEarthToys writes:
| | […]
if you have the order in hand & buyer does not want to pay the postage to reship
it to them, refund the purchase price of the order, but not the shipping fees..
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Unless specified in the store’s terms pror to the order, that’s illegal under
EU consumer laws.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 13:37 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 47 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Problem Order, PlanetEarthToys writes:
| | […]
if you have the order in hand & buyer does not want to pay the postage to reship
it to them, refund the purchase price of the order, but not the shipping fees..
|
Unless specified in the store’s terms pror to the order, that’s illegal under
EU consumer laws.
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For a shop, but OP doesn't seem to be a registered pro; I didn't
check carefully and may be wrong.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | rmor | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 13:48 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| But do I have to return the value of the order without the postage or also the
postage?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 13:49 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, rmor writes:
| | But do I have to return the value of the order without the postage or also the
postage?
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The full amount paid.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 13:51 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, 1001bricks writes:
| | […]
For a shop, but OP doesn't seem to be a registered pro; I didn't
check carefully and may be wrong.
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What registration? They could be a business without being VAT-registered.
Anyway:
1. 812 orders in 3½ years is way enough to qualify as a professional.
2. They are selling New items. That means they buy with the purpose of resaling,
that makes them professionals.
3. There’s no obvious difference on BL between a business and a hobbyist selling
their own collection. Buyers can’t know, therefore it must be assumed they are
professionals.
That’s a dead horse really.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 17:16 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| | | That’s a dead horse really.
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From EU consumer protection laws (extracts)
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A52021XC1229%2804%29
First, the consumer must NOT be buying for trading, selling
Is it the case here?
According to Article 2(1), ‘consumer’ is any natural person who, in contracts
covered by the Directive, is acting for purposes which are outside his/her trade,
business, craft or profession. It follows from that provision that two cumulative
conditions must be satisfied in order for a person to fall within the scope of
that concept, namely that: (i) the person is a natural person, and (ii) the persons
acts for non-professional purposes.
Furthermore, the Court held that the concept of ‘consumer’ refers to an individual
not engaged in commercial or trade activities.
Second, to be protected, ther other party must be a trader:
Classification as a ‘trader’ requires a case-by-case assessment of the, taking
into account the following indicative criteria:
* whether the sale was carried out in an organised manner;
* whether that sale was intended to generate profit;
* whether the seller had technical information and expertise relating to the
products which they offered for sale which the consumer did not necessarily have,
with the result that the seller was placed in a more advantageous position than
the consumer;
* whether the seller had a legal status which enabled them to engage in commercial
activities;
* to what extent the sale was connected to the seller’s commercial or professional
activity;
* whether the seller was subject to VAT;
* whether the seller, acting on behalf of a particular trader or on his/her own
behalf or through another person acting in his/her name and on his/her behalf,
received remuneration or an incentive;
* whether the seller purchased new or second-hand goods in order to resell them,
thus making that a regular, frequent and/or simultaneous activity in comparison
with their usual commercial or business activity;
* whether the goods for sale were all of the same type or of the same value;
* whether the offer was concentrated on a small number of goods.
And also:
In this respect, Directive (EU) 2019/2161 amended the CRD, introducing a requirement
for the providers of online marketplaces to inform the consumer whether the third
party supplier is acting as a ‘trader’ or ‘non-trader’ (peer-consumer), on the
basis of a declaration by the third party supplier to the provider of the online
marketplace. The information requirements for online marketplaces are addressed
in section 3.4.2.
In short, it's not (about the info we have) 100% sure this is the case for
consumer protection here; sorry about the horse beaten again.
While I 100% agree this person should simply full refund and move on 
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 18:07 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, 1001bricks writes:
One thing is sure: it makes people read 
| | […]
In short, it's not (about the info we have) 100% sure this is the case for
consumer protection here; sorry about the horse beaten again.
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And part of the fault is on BL….
(Note that I think I’ve seen suggestions to clearly differentiate pro/not-pro
sellers accounts (“traders”/“consumers”) before 2019. EU lawmakers copied us!
On the other hand, it’s only on the say-so of the members… so “I’m not a pro,
I only make 20 sales a week!”)
But there’s, in general and in this case, way better odds the seller is a trader
and the buyer a consumer than the other way around
| | While I 100% agree this person should simply full refund and move on
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Phew! That’s fortunate. Imagine the thread if you didn’t!
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | PlanetEarthToys | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 13:54 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Problem Order, PlanetEarthToys writes:
| | […]
if you have the order in hand & buyer does not want to pay the postage to reship
it to them, refund the purchase price of the order, but not the shipping fees..
|
Unless specified in the store’s terms pror to the order, that’s illegal under
EU consumer laws.
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i am not 100% fluent with EU rules.. but from what i gather from the seller's
post.. the buyer did not inform them of wanting to cancel the order within the
14-day Cooling-Off Period...
--
"If you buy goods in a shop, you have no EU legal right to return the goods
(for exchange or refund) unless the item is faulty. However, many shops voluntarily
allow customers to return or exchange goods during a certain time period, provided
you have the receipt. Check your receipt or the returns policy of the shop where
you made your purchase for more information.
How to cancel a purchase
You must tell the trader that you want to cancel your purchase. It is
not enough just to send the goods back. The trader must give you a model withdrawal
form which you can use to tell them about your decision, but you don't have
to use it. You can inform the trader and send back your goods at the same time,
for example, by adding a written statement with the goods that you are returning
by post, by sending an e-mail, or by completing an online returns form on the
trader's website.
You must send the goods back within 14 days of informing the trader.
Some traders may not charge you for returning your goods. However, they should
tell you in advance (before you order) if you will have to pay if you decide
to return your order. If they don't tell you that you must pay for your return,
the trader will have to pay for it. You don't have to pay any other charges
that you were not informed of.
For bulky goods (such as large household appliances or furniture), the trader
must give you at least an estimate of the cost of returning your order. Bulky
goods bought off-premises, such as by catalogue or from a door-to-door salesperson,
and delivered to you immediately must always, however, be collected by the trader
at their own expense.
Getting a refund
The trader must give you a refund within 14 days of receiving your cancellation
request. However, they can delay refunding you if they haven't received the
goods or evidence that you've returned them.
Your refund must include any shipping charges you paid when you made your purchase.
However, the trader may charge you delivery costs if you specifically requested
non-standard delivery (such as express delivery).
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 14:15 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, PlanetEarthToys writes:
| | […]
i am not 100% fluent with EU rules.. but from what i gather from the seller's
post.. the buyer did not inform them of wanting to cancel the order within the
14-day Cooling-Off Period...
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It’s not a “I received, I changed my mind, I return without warning” situation,
or even a “it was presented to me and I refused,” it’s a “I didn’t pick it up”
/ “I didn’t receive it” (we don’t know which exactly).
Now that the package has made its way back to the seller, the buyer says “forget
it.”
Also, you need to explicit the procedure to cancel in your terms. Otherwise,
the “market practices” prevail. And then you can blame most professionals whose
procedure is to refuse the package and/or not pick it up.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | PlanetEarthToys | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 14:21 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Problem Order, PlanetEarthToys writes:
| | […]
i am not 100% fluent with EU rules.. but from what i gather from the seller's
post.. the buyer did not inform them of wanting to cancel the order within the
14-day Cooling-Off Period...
|
It’s not a “I received, I changed my mind, I return without warning” situation,
or even a “it was presented to me and I refused,” it’s a “I didn’t pick it up”
/ “I didn’t receive it” (we don’t know which exactly).
Now that the package has made its way back to the seller, the buyer says “forget
it.”
Also, you need to explicit the procedure to cancel in your terms. Otherwise,
the “market practices” prevail. And then you can blame most professionals whose
procedure is to refuse the package and/or not pick it up.
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info needed is: was the buyer presented with a delivery notice from the shipping
company their order has arrived & is ready for pick-up , & they refused to pick
it up.
if the buyer was presented with a deivery notice & did not act on it to pick-up
their order, that is not a fault of the seller. the seller has zero control over
the buyers actions or lack of action.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 14:31 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, PlanetEarthToys writes:
| | […]
info needed is: was the buyer presented with a delivery notice from the shipping
company their order has arrived & is ready for pick-up , & they refused to pick
it up. […]
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No. The very first information that is needed is: was there anything in the
seller’s terms?
There’s nothing there. That’s a fault of the seller. You can’t blame the buyer
for the seller’s (and BrickLink’s) lack of information.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | PlanetEarthToys | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 14:45 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Problem Order, PlanetEarthToys writes:
| | […]
info needed is: was the buyer presented with a delivery notice from the shipping
company their order has arrived & is ready for pick-up , & they refused to pick
it up. […]
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No. The very first information that is needed is: was there anything in the
seller’s terms?
There’s nothing there. That’s a fault of the seller. You can’t blame the buyer
for the seller’s (and BrickLink’s) lack of information.
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from what i gather from the EU Rules, the buyer MUST inform the seller of cancellation
within 14 days of purchase, the items were not faulty, thus the buyer has no
legal avenue to pursue.
the lack of seller terms do not affect the default EU rules about returning non-faulty
items.
the buyer has no legal rights to return a purchase that is not faulty.
that's what the rule states.
right..?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 15:07 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, PlanetEarthToys writes:
| | […]
from what i gather from the EU Rules, the buyer MUST inform the seller of cancellation
within 14 days of purchase, the items were not faulty, thus the buyer has no
legal avenue to pursue.
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We don’t know what happened. The buyer may have been waiting for the package
all along (not having been presented with the package, not having been made aware
it was available for pick up) and, now that it arrived back to the seller, they
are saying “forget it” = I would want to cancel.
That means they are under the 14 days because they never received anything (the
delay runs from the moment the buyer takes possession: no possession, no delay),
and they are communicating with the seller now.
One argument for this situation is that the buyer is only asking for their money
now. They didn’t ask for a refund before the seller asked them.
| | the lack of seller terms do not affect the default EU rules about returning non-faulty
items.
the buyer has no legal rights to return a purchase that is not faulty.
that's what the rule states.
right..?
|
1. It was not “returned,” it was “not picked up.”
2. The rules first state that the seller must provide information, otherwise
defaults apply and, among them, the “market practices.” Market practices is
that refusing / not picking up the package is enough to signify a cancellation.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | PlanetEarthToys | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 15:30 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Problem Order, PlanetEarthToys writes:
| | […]
from what i gather from the EU Rules, the buyer MUST inform the seller of cancellation
within 14 days of purchase, the items were not faulty, thus the buyer has no
legal avenue to pursue.
|
We don’t know what happened. The buyer may have been waiting for the package
all along (not having been presented with the package, not having been made aware
it was available for pick up) and, now that it arrived back to the seller, they
are saying “forget it” = I would want to cancel.
That means they are under the 14 days because they never received anything (the
delay runs from the moment the buyer takes possession: no possession, no delay),
and they are communicating with the seller now.
One argument for this situation is that the buyer is only asking for their money
now. They didn’t ask for a refund before the seller asked them.
| | the lack of seller terms do not affect the default EU rules about returning non-faulty
items.
the buyer has no legal rights to return a purchase that is not faulty.
that's what the rule states.
right..?
|
1. It was not “returned,” it was “not picked up.”
2. The rules first state that the seller must provide information, otherwise
defaults apply and, among them, the “market practices.” Market practices is
that refusing / not picking up the package is enough to signify a cancellation.
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hence an hour ago i wrote this " info needed is: was the buyer presented
with a delivery notice from the shipping company their order has arrived & is
ready for pick-up , & they refused to pick it up."
you said "No, that doesn't mnatter the first info needed was seller terms"
, now you are saying it does matter if the buyer was aware of the delivered parcel
via a pick-up notice. the package was returned to the seller by the shipping
company because the buyer did not pick it up.
so again, info needed is -- was the buyer aware of the delivered parcel
via a notice from the shipping company..? was the buyer presented with the notice
of delivery & if so, did they inform the seller of wanting to cancel the transaction
within the 14 days of receiving that notice of delivery?
if not picking up a delivered order entails the seller must eat the postage cost
paid to deliver the item to the buyer... hmmm.. good luck EU sellers.. 10 friends
could get together & drive your business into the ground by not picking up packages
& forcing you to shell out a few hundred Euro's in shipping fees.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 15:42 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, PlanetEarthToys writes:
| | […]
| | 1. It was not “returned,” it was “not picked up.”
2. The rules first state that the seller must provide information, otherwise
defaults apply and, among them, the “market practices.” Market practices is
that refusing / not picking up the package is enough to signify a cancellation.
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hence an hour ago i wrote this " info needed is: was the buyer presented
with a delivery notice from the shipping company their order has arrived & is
ready for pick-up , & they refused to pick it up."
you said "No, that doesn't mnatter the first info needed was seller terms"
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(1) and (2) are two independant objections.
| | […]
if not picking up a delivered order entails the seller must eat the postage cost
paid to deliver the item to the buyer... hmmm.. good luck EU sellers.. 10 friends
could get together & drive your business into the ground by not picking up packages
& forcing you to shell out a few hundred Euro's in shipping fees.
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First, the EU sellers just need to be clear about what is refunded and what procedures
to follow.
Second, that’s preposterous.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | PlanetEarthToys | | Posted: | May 24, 2023 16:05 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Problem Order, PlanetEarthToys writes:
| | […]
| | 1. It was not “returned,” it was “not picked up.”
2. The rules first state that the seller must provide information, otherwise
defaults apply and, among them, the “market practices.” Market practices is
that refusing / not picking up the package is enough to signify a cancellation.
|
hence an hour ago i wrote this " info needed is: was the buyer presented
with a delivery notice from the shipping company their order has arrived & is
ready for pick-up , & they refused to pick it up."
you said "No, that doesn't mnatter the first info needed was seller terms"
|
(1) and (2) are two independant objections.
| | […]
if not picking up a delivered order entails the seller must eat the postage cost
paid to deliver the item to the buyer... hmmm.. good luck EU sellers.. 10 friends
could get together & drive your business into the ground by not picking up packages
& forcing you to shell out a few hundred Euro's in shipping fees.
|
First, the EU sellers just need to be clear about what is refunded and what procedures
to follow.
Second, that’s preposterous.
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how is that scenario preposterous?
it's true.. correct?
10 Euro-Friends could go to this sellers store right now , all 10 place orders
with 30 Euro shipping fees, none of the 10 ever pick-up their orders & not inform
the seller of wanting to cancel the orders.
all 10 buyers have their orders returned to the seller by the shipping company
& the seller will be forced to fork out 300 Euro's from their own pocket
in order to process the 10 refunds in full...
then those 10 friends could do it all over again to another seller the next week.
& it would never cost them a red cent.
imagine how much chaos those 10 friends could cause by copy & pasting this scenario
weekly across the EU targeting certain sellers & shops
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| | | | | | | Author: | Reki_Lobsheek | | Posted: | May 25, 2023 06:47 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| I agree: just refund the price of the item, not the postage costs.
Erikk
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | May 25, 2023 10:18 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, Reki_Lobsheek writes:
| | I agree: just refund the price of the item, not the postage costs.
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That could well lead to negative feedback and a paypal complaint for non-delivery
if the buyer has already asked for a full refund.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | PlanetEarthToys | | Posted: | May 25, 2023 10:36 | | Subject: | Re: Problem with a refund | | Viewed: | 47 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
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| In Problem Order, yorbrick writes:
| | In Problem Order, Reki_Lobsheek writes:
| | I agree: just refund the price of the item, not the postage costs.
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That could well lead to negative feedback and a paypal complaint for non-delivery
if the buyer has already asked for a full refund.
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any threat or notion of the buyer leaving the seller a negative feedback if the
seller doesn't do as ordered by the buyer when the seller did everything
correctly is called Extortion & is illegal.
as far as Paypal is concerned, all the seller has to do is prove they shipped
out the parcel to the specified address on the order within a reasonable timeframe
& that the buyer did not pick up the order after being notified it was delivered
& ready for pick-up by the shipping company.
simple
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Portugal
Bulgaria, Sofia City
France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
USA, Arkansas
United Kingdom, England
Belgium, Brussels