|
 |
| | | Author: | helge  | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 09:57 | | Subject: | VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 149 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| I have an order to Germany that Bricklink has charged VAT on, and the buyer is
asked to pay VAT on again to receive it.
The value of the parts is 149,3 EUR, and shipping is 6,9 EUR. Bricklink has calculated
the VAT on the total of that, but should that have been done?
The value is 156,2 EUR, and is above the 150 EUR limit.
The order were sent with IOSS number and all correct labels and documentation.
Who is correct: the German customs service or Bricklink?
Regards,
Helge
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Dino | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 10:39 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 59 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | I have an order to Germany that Bricklink has charged VAT on, and the buyer is
asked to pay VAT on again to receive it.
The value of the parts is 149,3 EUR, and shipping is 6,9 EUR. Bricklink has calculated
the VAT on the total of that, but should that have been done?
The value is 156,2 EUR, and is above the 150 EUR limit.
The order were sent with IOSS number and all correct labels and documentation.
Who is correct: the German customs service or Bricklink?
Regards,
Helge
|
The value of the parts is less than € 150, so Bricklink has to calculated the
VAT. But VAT must be calculated on the value of goods and shipping costs.
Now, the German custo calculated the new VAT: value of the goods + shipping costs
+ VAT
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | helge | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 10:45 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 56 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, Dino1 writes:
| | In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | I have an order to Germany that Bricklink has charged VAT on, and the buyer is
asked to pay VAT on again to receive it.
The value of the parts is 149,3 EUR, and shipping is 6,9 EUR. Bricklink has calculated
the VAT on the total of that, but should that have been done?
The value is 156,2 EUR, and is above the 150 EUR limit.
The order were sent with IOSS number and all correct labels and documentation.
Who is correct: the German customs service or Bricklink?
Regards,
Helge
|
The value of the parts is less than € 150, so Bricklink has to calculated the
VAT. But VAT must be calculated on the value of goods and shipping costs.
Now, the German custo calculated the new VAT: value of the goods + shipping costs
+ VAT
|
But what is correct? It can't be correct that ordres with value of goods
bellow 150, but total cost above 150 shall be charged VAT twice. Even EU is not
able to come up with such a law.
Helge
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 10:56 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | […]
But what is correct? It can't be correct that ordres with value of goods
bellow 150, but total cost above 150 shall be charged VAT twice. Even EU is not
able to come up with such a law.
Helge
|
The problem is “double VATing.” It also happens when the total cost is still
below €150.
It happens because the IOSS was not correctly forwarded by the sending postal
services and/or receiving postal services or the Customs agents didn’t see it
or aren’t sure the VAT was paid to BL and don’t read the attached paperwork.
(“BrickLink? What’s that? We only know about Amazon, eBay or Alibaba….”)
The ones in the wrong are those who didn’t do their job. It’s the usual Kafkadministration….
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Dino | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 11:02 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | In Technical Issues, Dino1 writes:
| | In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | I have an order to Germany that Bricklink has charged VAT on, and the buyer is
asked to pay VAT on again to receive it.
The value of the parts is 149,3 EUR, and shipping is 6,9 EUR. Bricklink has calculated
the VAT on the total of that, but should that have been done?
The value is 156,2 EUR, and is above the 150 EUR limit.
The order were sent with IOSS number and all correct labels and documentation.
Who is correct: the German customs service or Bricklink?
Regards,
Helge
|
The value of the parts is less than € 150, so Bricklink has to calculated the
VAT. But VAT must be calculated on the value of goods and shipping costs.
Now, the German custo calculated the new VAT: value of the goods + shipping costs
+ VAT
|
But what is correct? It can't be correct that ordres with value of goods
bellow 150, but total cost above 150 shall be charged VAT twice. Even EU is not
able to come up with such a law.
Helge
|
Nothing should be taxed twice. But in all countries of the EU there is the sales
tax, commonly known as VAT. The tax for import is called "import sales tax" in
Germany. So if there is only VAT on the invoice, the official sees that as the
tax of the exporting country. So he calculates the import VAT himself: value
of the parts + shipping costs + VAT.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | helge | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 11:25 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| | |
Nothing should be taxed twice. But in all countries of the EU there is the sales
tax, commonly known as VAT. The tax for import is called "import sales tax" in
Germany. So if there is only VAT on the invoice, the official sees that as the
tax of the exporting country. So he calculates the import VAT himself: value
of the parts + shipping costs + VAT.
|
No, as I said the order were sent with IOSS number an all proper documentation
as all the other 100+ orders I have sent to EU the last months. All orders I
have sent to EU countries, including many to Germany, since October (when there
were some problems with the transfer of IOSS numbers) has worked fine. But this
is the only case I have had where the value of goods is below 150 EUR and the
value of goods + shipping is above. If Bricklink is doing this wrong, it need
to be corrected.
Regards,
Helge
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | helge | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 11:17 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 49 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| | | | |
The value of the parts is less than € 150, so Bricklink has to calculated the
VAT. But VAT must be calculated on the value of goods and shipping costs.
Now, the German custo calculated the new VAT: value of the goods + shipping costs
+ VAT
|
But what is correct? It can't be correct that ordres with value of goods
bellow 150, but total cost above 150 shall be charged VAT twice. Even EU is not
able to come up with such a law.
Helge
|
Do anybody has actual information?
Is the 150 EUR limit for goods only, or is it for goods + shipping?
Regards,
Helge
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 11:23 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | | | | |
The value of the parts is less than € 150, so Bricklink has to calculated the
VAT. But VAT must be calculated on the value of goods and shipping costs.
Now, the German custo calculated the new VAT: value of the goods + shipping costs
+ VAT
|
But what is correct? It can't be correct that ordres with value of goods
bellow 150, but total cost above 150 shall be charged VAT twice. Even EU is not
able to come up with such a law.
Helge
|
Do anybody has actual information?
Is the 150 EUR limit for goods only, or is it for goods + shipping?
Regards,
Helge
|
Ask your local experts on the subject. This kind of questions is depending on
too much variables, EU-law, local law, your business, etc. etc.
Good luck!
Paul
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | helge | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 11:30 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| | | | |
Do anybody has actual information?
Is the 150 EUR limit for goods only, or is it for goods + shipping?
Regards,
Helge
|
Ask your local experts on the subject. This kind of questions is depending on
too much variables, EU-law, local law, your business, etc. etc.
Good luck!
Paul
|
Thanks, bud I am asking what the rules are into Germany. This is not a complex
question, and it does not depend on anything on my side. The limit is either
on the value of the goods or the value of goods + shipping.
Helge
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 11:42 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, helge writes:
exactly and this is why I stopped looking for parts outside the EU and selling
outside the EU....
Call me stupid, but this is exactly what the EU politicians wanted: (economic)
walls around fortress Europe  . To my opinion, this is part of the Trump-heritage.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Dino | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 12:02 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, StarBrick writes:
| | In Technical Issues, helge writes:
exactly and this is why I stopped looking for parts outside the EU and selling
outside the EU....
Call me stupid, but this is exactly what the EU politicians wanted: (economic)
walls around fortress Europe . To my opinion, this is part of the Trump-heritage.
|
No, they want to protect local vendors. If you have to offer something including
VAT and a seller outside the EU offers it cheaper without VAT, the buyer will
always choose the cheaper one. Now taxes are charged on all goods, whether inside
or outside the EU. This is cheaper for the buyers, but it helps the sellers.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:20 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 24 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, StarBrick writes:
| | In Technical Issues, helge writes:
exactly and this is why I stopped looking for parts outside the EU and selling
outside the EU....
Call me stupid, but this is exactly what the EU politicians wanted: (economic)
walls around fortress Europe . To my opinion, this is part of the Trump-heritage.
|
Ofcourse the EU wants more trade within their borders and less money going out.
It's what every commercial oriented system does: less cost, more income.
Any way.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | helge | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 17:50 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, StarBrick writes:
| | In Technical Issues, helge writes:
exactly and this is why I stopped looking for parts outside the EU and selling
outside the EU....
Call me stupid, but this is exactly what the EU politicians wanted: (economic)
walls around fortress Europe . To my opinion, this is part of the Trump-heritage.
|
Actually I have started to be rather positive to this system. I had some cases
in September/October were the IOSS number apparently did not get transferred
correctly, and VAT got double charged, but after that things have gone mostly
quite smoothly.
After UK started with the same system one year ago, sending to UK has been faster
than before, and I have not had one single complaint about VAT charging. Before
the new system, packages could be held up in customs inspection for weeks, and
buyers got annoyed for being charged VAT.
I think it is only fair that all pay VAT, and with this system the buyers do
not get the processing fee as they did before.
Helge
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 18:00 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| | | I think it is only fair that all pay VAT [...]
|
Uh uh - and Bezos and Musk all pay normal taxes of course.
Mmmmh I'm to see Bambi again 
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:18 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 23 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | | | | |
Do anybody has actual information?
Is the 150 EUR limit for goods only, or is it for goods + shipping?
Regards,
Helge
|
Ask your local experts on the subject. This kind of questions is depending on
too much variables, EU-law, local law, your business, etc. etc.
Good luck!
Paul
|
Thanks, bud I am asking what the rules are into Germany. This is not a complex
question, and it does not depend on anything on my side. The limit is either
on the value of the goods or the value of goods + shipping.
Helge
|
Still, a local expert on this should know the situation in Germany too. Here
on the Forum you will get a lot of opinions but who knows if these are expert
opinions.
Anyway, up to you what to believe 
Paul
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | hpoort | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:08 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | | | | |
The value of the parts is less than € 150, so Bricklink has to calculated the
VAT. But VAT must be calculated on the value of goods and shipping costs.
Now, the German custo calculated the new VAT: value of the goods + shipping costs
+ VAT
|
But what is correct? It can't be correct that ordres with value of goods
bellow 150, but total cost above 150 shall be charged VAT twice. Even EU is not
able to come up with such a law.
Helge
|
Do anybody has actual information?
Is the 150 EUR limit for goods only, or is it for goods + shipping?
Regards,
Helge
|
AFAIKT: goods only - the source text says "distance sales of imported goods in
consignments not exceeding EUR 150": https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/vat-e-commerce_en
with consignment probably meaning "a batch of goods destined for or delivered
to someone" https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:15 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
|
Yes but no -
If I charge 110€ items + 50€ fees, then the REAL price of the parts is 160€.
If those fees include VAT, then we're over the 150€ threshold.
Same for the shipping: the real price of the goods is the total price paid, including
shipping (if it contains VAT).
This is how Customs have taxed for tens of years IMO and because the real price
is the price paid, not only the parts value.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | helge | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 17:28 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, 1001bricks writes:
| |
Yes but no -
If I charge 110€ items + 50€ fees, then the REAL price of the parts is 160€.
If those fees include VAT, then we're over the 150€ threshold.
Same for the shipping: the real price of the goods is the total price paid, including
shipping (if it contains VAT).
This is how Customs have taxed for tens of years IMO and because the real price
is the price paid, not only the parts value.
|
Hi Sylvain,
The buyer has checked with the German customs service, and their website says
that it is the value of the goods only that need to be under 150 EUR. But had
this been the other way, the Norwegian customs service would have looked at the
total price (goods + shipping)
In this particular case, the German customs service has charged VAT on both goods,
shipping and the already charged VAT, and in addition added a fee for doing so.
So the buyer actually been triple charged VAT. I have asked him to not pay and
return the package.
To avoid situations like this in the future, I will advice my buyers to either
stay over the 150 EUR limit on goods, or below 150 on goods + shipping.
Thanks,
Helge
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 17:44 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| Hi Helge!!
| | To avoid situations like this in the future, I will advice my buyers to either
stay over the 150 EUR limit on goods, or below 150 on goods + shipping.
|
Yes, easy to automate for us with AC and IP
And what about fees? Many charge PayPal fees, (more or less legally, who cares).
But fees should be accounted in the items price.
Or I'd charge 1€ items and 1000€ fees next time!?
What happens now?
For us in EU, Business is just shrinking.
UK exited, selling to EU is a pain (many already gave up).
Export means taxes (like US ones).
In short, less for UK, less for EU, less for Export.
Very fine: a Shop still may sell inside it's own Country.
Until more regulations to come.
Please have a good one!
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SezaR | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 19:43 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | In Technical Issues, 1001bricks writes:
| |
Yes but no -
If I charge 110€ items + 50€ fees, then the REAL price of the parts is 160€.
If those fees include VAT, then we're over the 150€ threshold.
Same for the shipping: the real price of the goods is the total price paid, including
shipping (if it contains VAT).
This is how Customs have taxed for tens of years IMO and because the real price
is the price paid, not only the parts value.
|
Hi Sylvain,
The buyer has checked with the German customs service, and their website says
that it is the value of the goods only that need to be under 150 EUR. But had
this been the other way, the Norwegian customs service would have looked at the
total price (goods + shipping)
In this particular case, the German customs service has charged VAT on both goods,
shipping and the already charged VAT, and in addition added a fee for doing so.
So the buyer actually been triple charged VAT. I have asked him to not pay and
return the package.
To avoid situations like this in the future, I will advice my buyers to either
stay over the 150 EUR limit on goods, or below 150 on goods + shipping.
Thanks,
Helge
|
There may be another reason: the German customs did not get the IOSS number properly.
Something somewhere is probably messed up. This has happened to my buyer in Poland
and the Netherlands for orders of value about 30 Euro. For this reason, I added
extra warning in my terms in regards to Vat for buyers in Europe or UK.
In Canada, we can always request customs to reassess import fees. The package
would be returned from post office to customs and then, they will contact us
for further information/documents.
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:05 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | I have an order to Germany that Bricklink has charged VAT on, and the buyer is
asked to pay VAT on again to receive it.
The value of the parts is 149,3 EUR, and shipping is 6,9 EUR. Bricklink has calculated
the VAT on the total of that, but should that have been done?
|
This seems pretty obvious for me.
IF shipping has a VAT, then the total including shipping should be accounted
in the 150 threshold.
IF the shipping has no VAT, then it shouldn't count in the threshold.
In fact, the BrickLink calculation depends (I guess) on the check boxes you've
set up in your shop settings about where VAT is applied, like: items, additional
fees 1 & 2, shipping, credit...
HTH?
Sylvain
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:26 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, 1001bricks writes:
| | In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | I have an order to Germany that Bricklink has charged VAT on, and the buyer is
asked to pay VAT on again to receive it.
The value of the parts is 149,3 EUR, and shipping is 6,9 EUR. Bricklink has calculated
the VAT on the total of that, but should that have been done?
|
This seems pretty obvious for me.
IF shipping has a VAT, then the total including shipping should be accounted
in the 150 threshold.
IF the shipping has no VAT, then it shouldn't count in the threshold.
In fact, the BrickLink calculation depends (I guess) on the check boxes you've
set up in your shop settings about where VAT is applied, like: items, additional
fees 1 & 2, shipping, credit...
|
Seems rather odd. In what situation would a seller charge VAT on the goods but
NOT on the S&H?? Afaik this is not allowed, the VAT % charged on S&H must be
the same as the % charged on the goods.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:44 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| | | Seems rather odd. In what situation would a seller charge VAT on the goods but
NOT on the S&H?? Afaik this is not allowed, the VAT % charged on S&H must be
the same as the % charged on the goods.
|
If the shipping price doesn't contain VAT (like for stamps) or if you charge
the exact shipping price (with not any discount or not any addition), this is
tolerated and could fit in tax examptions, depending the Country.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:49 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 20 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, 1001bricks writes:
| | | | Seems rather odd. In what situation would a seller charge VAT on the goods but
NOT on the S&H?? Afaik this is not allowed, the VAT % charged on S&H must be
the same as the % charged on the goods.
|
If the shipping price doesn't contain VAT (like for stamps) or if you charge
the exact shipping price (with not any discount or not any addition), this is
tolerated and could fit in tax examptions, depending the Country.
|
Sorry, that is a common mistake. Stamps are perhaps VAT free for the Postal Company
issuing the stamps but never for the user of stamps. Exact shipping price is
neither relevant.
But it might be different per country, although I doubt that very much inside
the EU it should be the same for all countries.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:54 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| | | | | If the shipping price doesn't contain VAT (like for stamps) or if you charge
the exact shipping price (with not any discount or not any addition), this is
tolerated and could fit in tax examptions, depending the Country.
|
Sorry, that is a common mistake. Stamps are perhaps VAT free for the Postal Company
issuing the stamps but never for the user of stamps. Exact shipping price is
neither relevant.
|
Then I guess it's different in France.
If you invoice an ***exact*** stamp price, then you're allowed not to charge
VAT.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 14:04 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 26 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, 1001bricks writes:
| | | | | | If the shipping price doesn't contain VAT (like for stamps) or if you charge
the exact shipping price (with not any discount or not any addition), this is
tolerated and could fit in tax examptions, depending the Country.
|
Sorry, that is a common mistake. Stamps are perhaps VAT free for the Postal Company
issuing the stamps but never for the user of stamps. Exact shipping price is
neither relevant.
|
Then I guess it's different in France.
If you invoice an ***exact*** stamp price, then you're allowed not to charge
VAT.
|
I guess it is. I have checked again several Dutch sources on this subject and
all state the same: charge VAT on S&H. No mentioning whatsoever on exact shipping
cost. Well... I guess I have to go talk to an expert about it 
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 15:02 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, patpendlego writes:
| | […]
Sorry, that is a common mistake. Stamps are perhaps VAT free for the Postal Company
issuing the stamps but never for the user of stamps. Exact shipping price is
neither relevant.
But it might be different per country, although I doubt that very much inside
the EU it should be the same for all countries.
|
The difference is what can you account for as “débours” (disbursements?).
“Débours” are a cost the seller advances for the client. And in that case, you
transfer everything to the client, without added VAT.
In France, exact shipping costs can be considered as such (or must be).
In Belgium, every shipping costs must be considered as such.
Non-official reference for France and Belgium: https://vosfactures.fr/article/faut-il-appliquer-la-tva-sur-les-frais-de-livraison
Official reference for France
https://bofip.impots.gouv.fr/bofip/705-PGP.html/identifiant%3DBOI-TVA-BASE-10-20-10-20190807
Title II. Section A. Subsection 3. Paragraph f. Transports par colis postaux
“line” 280 and following:
“““
Les frais de transport par colis postaux qu'un vendeur réclame à son client,
en plus du prix des marchandises, doivent être soumis à la TVA lorsque la
facturation de ces frais n'est pas effectuée « au franc le franc » ou
lorsque le transfert de propriété n'intervient qu'au moment de la délivrance
des biens à l'acquéreur. En effet, même en cas de refacturation à l'identique,
les frais qu'une entreprise expose pour transporter ou faire transporter
des biens dont elle demeure responsable en cas de dommage, de destruction, de
perte ou de vol, afin de les délivrer matériellement et juridiquement à leur
acheteur, constituent pour cette entreprise des charges d'exploitation et
non des simples « débours » avancés au nom et pour le compte de son client. Pour
l'application du 2° du I de l'article 267 du CGI, ces frais sont un élément
du prix total de vente des marchandises, prix dont le montant hors taxe constitue
la base d'imposition à la TVA. Par contre, compte tenu du 2° du II de l'article
267 du CGI, si la vente est conclue aux conditions « départ », les biens étant
transportés aux risques et périls de l'acheteur, les frais de transport sont
exclus des bases d'imposition à la taxe du vendeur à condition que celui-ci
les facture à son client pour leur montant exact. Ces diverses dispositions s'appliquent
quelles que soient la qualité du transporteur et sa situation au regard de la
TVA (RM, n° 21294 à M. Gouze, député, JO, AN du 17 janvier 1983, p. 295).
”””
Translation of the emphasized text: “must be subject to VAT when the invoicing
of these charges is not done ‘franc to franc’” which means it “doesn’t must”
when it’s done “au franc le franc.”
It says “franc” because:
1. “au franc le franc” is a set expression,
2. it’s a direct quotation from an answer made to a député (national representant)
in 1983, but the BOFIP (Bulletin Officiel des Finances Publiques - Impôts) is
dated 2019-08-07, and is still valid.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:46 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, patpendlego writes:
| | […]
| | This seems pretty obvious for me.
IF shipping has a VAT, then the total including shipping should be accounted
in the 150 threshold.
IF the shipping has no VAT, then it shouldn't count in the threshold.
In fact, the BrickLink calculation depends (I guess) on the check boxes you've
set up in your shop settings about where VAT is applied, like: items, additional
fees 1 & 2, shipping, credit...
|
Seems rather odd. In what situation would a seller charge VAT on the goods but
NOT on the S&H?? Afaik this is not allowed, the VAT % charged on S&H must be
the same as the % charged on the goods.
|
This is how it works here (at least):
If the seller clearly separates shipping & handling on the invoice and the shipping
has no VAT to deduct (as it’s the case if the seller uses La Poste’s shipping
or stamps), then the seller may not collect VAT on the shipping. (Not “can’t,”
as an impossibility, but “may not” as an option.)
As soon as the seller adds to the shipping, even if it’s one cent, it becomes
shipping&handling and the VAT will apply to the whole cost.
Anyway, the rules for import or IOSS VAT are, as hpoort already pointed with
refs:
1. the €150 threshold is on the value for the goods,
2. the VAT is calculated on the total cost.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:50 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 27 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| | | If the seller clearly separates shipping & handling on the invoice and the shipping
has no VAT to deduct (as it’s the case if the seller uses La Poste’s shipping
or stamps), then the seller may not collect VAT on the shipping. (Not “can’t,”
as an impossibility, but “may not” as an option.)
As soon as the seller adds to the shipping, even if it’s one cent, it becomes
shipping&handling and the VAT will apply to the whole cost.
|
I confirm.
| | Anyway, the rules for import or IOSS VAT are, as hpoort already pointed with
refs:
1. the €150 threshold is on the value for the goods,
2. the VAT is calculated on the total cost.
|
1. Strange for the threshold calculation.
Next time I'll ship a 1€ part and a 1000€ shipping fee...
Really weird, and I'd like to see an official text about this.
2. Agreed.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 14:01 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 29 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, 1001bricks writes:
| | […]
1. Strange for the threshold calculation.
Next time I'll ship a 1€ part and a 1000€ shipping fee...
Really weird, and I'd like to see an official text about this.
|
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/system/files/2020-09/vatecommerceexplanatory_notes_30092020.pdf
From the PDF:
Consignment – goods packed together and dispatched simultaneously by the
same supplier or underlying supplier to the same consignee and covered by the
same transport contract.
Intrinsic value –
(a) for commercial goods: the price of the goods themselves when sold for export
to the customs territory of the Union, excluding transport and insurance costs,
unless they are included in the price and not indicated separately on the invoice,
and excluding any other taxes and charges as ascertainable by the customs authorities
from any relevant document(s);
(b) for goods of a non-commercial nature: the price which would have been paid
for the goods themselves if they were sold for export to the customs territory
of the Union.
Low value goods – goods in consignments whose intrinsic value at import
does not exceed EUR 150 (except products subject to excise duties).
Phew
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 14:12 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| | | Low value goods – goods in consignments whose intrinsic value at import
does not exceed EUR 150 (except products subject to excise duties).
|
Uh uh... weird anyway.
I guess BrickLink doesn't calculate it like this, otherwise Helge wouldn't
have posted...
| |
Phew
|
Please put this is a frame on your wall - it's RARE.
Sylvain
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | helge | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 17:36 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 27 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, 1001bricks writes:
| | | | Low value goods – goods in consignments whose intrinsic value at import
does not exceed EUR 150 (except products subject to excise duties).
|
Uh uh... weird anyway.
I guess BrickLink doesn't calculate it like this, otherwise Helge wouldn't
have posted...
|
From what I can see BrickLink is doing it correct, and the German customs service
did a mistake. Getting them to admit that they made a mistake though, is not
something I would try to do
The order were sent with IOSS number correctly filled in on the electronically
registered CN23, the VAT confirmation from BrickLink were in an plastic envelope
on the outside, the order printout was inside, and I had put on a sticker with
"VAT prepaid" So it should have been clear.
Helge
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 14:14 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Technical Issues, 1001bricks writes:
| | […]
1. Strange for the threshold calculation.
Next time I'll ship a 1€ part and a 1000€ shipping fee...
Really weird, and I'd like to see an official text about this.
|
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/system/files/2020-09/vatecommerceexplanatory_notes_30092020.pdf
From the PDF:
Consignment – goods packed together and dispatched simultaneously by the
same supplier or underlying supplier to the same consignee and covered by the
same transport contract.
Intrinsic value –
(a) for commercial goods: the price of the goods themselves when sold for export
to the customs territory of the Union, excluding transport and insurance costs,
unless they are included in the price and not indicated separately on the invoice,
and excluding any other taxes and charges as ascertainable by the customs authorities
from any relevant document(s);
(b) for goods of a non-commercial nature: the price which would have been paid
for the goods themselves if they were sold for export to the customs territory
of the Union.
Low value goods – goods in consignments whose intrinsic value at import
does not exceed EUR 150 (except products subject to excise duties).
Phew
|
That PDF has a very good example:
Example 2: Invoice indicating total amount of the price paid for the goods
split between net price of the goods and transport charges. VAT amount indicated
separately.
Price of the goods as indicated in the invoice: EUR 140
Transport charges as indicated in the invoice: EUR 20
VAT (20%) as indicated in the invoice: EUR 32
Total invoice amount: EUR 192
In this example, transport costs are mentioned separately in the order/invoice.
As such, transport costs are excluded from the intrinsic value. The intrinsic
value of the goods is not exceeding EUR 150 and therefore, IOSS can be used and
no VAT or customs duties is levied at importation. To be noted that VAT is applied
on the total value of the sale (e.g. the EUR 160 value of the goods and the transport
charges).
That should clear everything, thanks for finding it.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 14:31 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | […]
That PDF has a very good example:
|
Yes.
| | […]
That should clear everything, thanks for finding it.
|
I’m not the one who found it first, I think I was made aware of its existence
here, maybe by patpendlego himself?
And I now try to link & quote it in every discussion about the new EU VAT rules
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 17:16 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | […]
That PDF has a very good example:
|
Yes.
| | […]
That should clear everything, thanks for finding it.
|
I’m not the one who found it first, I think I was made aware of its existence
here, maybe by patpendlego himself?
|
Nope, not me. I do not even understand it at all, come on 99 pages to explain
VAT? Way to complex.
| | And I now try to link & quote it in every discussion about the new EU VAT rules
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 17:37 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 29 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, patpendlego writes:
| | […]
Nope, not me. I do not even understand it at all, come on 99 pages to explain
VAT? Way to complex.
|
Indeed, I got my Dutchmen named Paul all mixed up: https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1226302
Sorry, Paul & Paul,
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 17:43 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 21 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Technical Issues, patpendlego writes:
| | […]
Nope, not me. I do not even understand it at all, come on 99 pages to explain
VAT? Way to complex.
|
Indeed, I got my Dutchmen named Paul all mixed up: https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1226302
Sorry, Paul & Paul,
|
No problem.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 17:46 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Technical Issues, patpendlego writes:
| | […]
Nope, not me. I do not even understand it at all, come on 99 pages to explain
VAT? Way to complex.
|
Indeed, I got my Dutchmen named Paul all mixed up: https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1226302
Sorry, Paul & Paul,
|
Yes Sylvain!
Sylvain.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:48 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, patpendlego writes:
| | In Technical Issues, 1001bricks writes:
| | In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | I have an order to Germany that Bricklink has charged VAT on, and the buyer is
asked to pay VAT on again to receive it.
The value of the parts is 149,3 EUR, and shipping is 6,9 EUR. Bricklink has calculated
the VAT on the total of that, but should that have been done?
|
This seems pretty obvious for me.
IF shipping has a VAT, then the total including shipping should be accounted
in the 150 threshold.
IF the shipping has no VAT, then it shouldn't count in the threshold.
In fact, the BrickLink calculation depends (I guess) on the check boxes you've
set up in your shop settings about where VAT is applied, like: items, additional
fees 1 & 2, shipping, credit...
|
|
That's right Sylvain, but most out of EU sellers don't have the VAT settings
(attached image) for those and probably they are unchecked by default. The calculation
should take that into account.
| |
Seems rather odd. In what situation would a seller charge VAT on the goods but
NOT on the S&H?? Afaik this is not allowed, the VAT % charged on S&H must be
the same as the % charged on the goods.
|
Here if you charge actual shipping cost that is in the "Servicio Postal Universal"
(aka UPU) like lettermail and it is exempt of VAT you can not charge VAT on it,
but as most don't charge actual shipping and the price has additional costs
then it must have VAT included.
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:53 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 24 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| | | | | | | In fact, the BrickLink calculation depends (I guess) on the check boxes you've
set up in your shop settings about where VAT is applied, like: items, additional
fees 1 & 2, shipping, credit...
|
|
That's right Sylvain, but most out of EU sellers don't have the VAT settings
(attached image) for those and probably they are unchecked by default. The calculation
should take that into account.
|
Most don't have those enabled???
Mine are:
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:58 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 22 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, 1001bricks writes:
| | | | | | | | In fact, the BrickLink calculation depends (I guess) on the check boxes you've
set up in your shop settings about where VAT is applied, like: items, additional
fees 1 & 2, shipping, credit...
|
|
That's right Sylvain, but most out of EU sellers don't have the VAT settings
(attached image) for those and probably they are unchecked by default. The calculation
should take that into account.
|
Most don't have those enabled???
Mine are:
|
I still think these are odd options. VAT must be charged on the total, including
all additional cost. Period. So far I've never heard or read about exceptions
like "exact shipping cost". I definitely would like to see proof of that case.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 14:10 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 22 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, 1001bricks writes:
| | | | | | | | In fact, the BrickLink calculation depends (I guess) on the check boxes you've
set up in your shop settings about where VAT is applied, like: items, additional
fees 1 & 2, shipping, credit...
|
|
That's right Sylvain, but most out of EU sellers don't have the VAT settings
(attached image) for those and probably they are unchecked by default. The calculation
should take that into account.
|
Most don't have those enabled???
Mine are:
|
Didn't know you were a seller that is outside of the EU!
Last time I checked France was in
Example:
https://www.bricklink.com/messageThread.asp?ID=315443&nID=1321630
PD: My English could be better, sorry
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 14:16 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| | | | | | | That's right Sylvain, but most out of EU sellers don't have the VAT settings
(attached image) for those and probably they are unchecked by default. The calculation
should take that into account.
|
Most don't have those enabled???
Mine are:
|
Didn't know you were a seller that is outside of the EU!
Last time I checked France was in
|
We're not IOSS for now, it'll be very soon.
Apart this, sure France is in EU, even more than Spain, ha ha
| | PD: My English could be better, sorry
|
Mine was - but abuse of Time makes your language(s) poorer, unfortunately.
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | briky | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 13:20 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | I have an order to Germany that Bricklink has charged VAT on, and the buyer is
asked to pay VAT on again to receive it.
The value of the parts is 149,3 EUR, and shipping is 6,9 EUR. Bricklink has calculated
the VAT on the total of that, but should that have been done?
The value is 156,2 EUR, and is above the 150 EUR limit.
The order were sent with IOSS number and all correct labels and documentation.
Who is correct: the German customs service or Bricklink?
Regards,
Helge
|
Happened to me too with an order from you...value without shipping below Euro
150.
With a label Tax Paid...one could spot from a mile away...nevertheless they managed
to tax me twice(taking in account order value and shipping costs)...postal services
are very happy they can cash their handlingcosts(Euro 15...or double if order
is +Euro 150)...you can always protest afterwards....and waste a lot of time...and
end up nowhere....my next orders will be over the treshold.
Greets
Chris
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 17:47 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | I have an order to Germany that Bricklink has charged VAT on, and the buyer is
asked to pay VAT on again to receive it.
The value of the parts is 149,3 EUR, and shipping is 6,9 EUR. Bricklink has calculated
the VAT on the total of that, but should that have been done?
The value is 156,2 EUR, and is above the 150 EUR limit.
The order were sent with IOSS number and all correct labels and documentation.
Who is correct: the German customs service or Bricklink?
Regards,
Helge
|
Did you know we owe a thank you to the French for introducing VAT?
In 1953 the French started with TVA (la Taxe sur la Valeur Ajoutée). Soon after
it got introduced in Germany and then The Netherlands could not stay behind..........
The rest is history.
Have nice evening
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jan 12, 2022 18:07 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, patpendlego writes:
| | […]
Did you know we owe a thank you to the French for introducing VAT?
|
Indeed, in France, we don’t have oil but we have ideas!¹
Well, mostly taxing ideas… but, as you noted, they export well 
———
¹ “En France, on n’a pas de pétrole mais on a des idées”: French slogan from
1973 onward. Can’t have a day without someone using it. I’ve done my part
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | TBS | | Posted: | Jan 13, 2022 04:11 | | Subject: | Re: VAT calculation into Germany | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, helge writes:
| | I have an order to Germany that Bricklink has charged VAT on, and the buyer is
asked to pay VAT on again to receive it.
The value of the parts is 149,3 EUR, and shipping is 6,9 EUR. Bricklink has calculated
the VAT on the total of that, but should that have been done?
The value is 156,2 EUR, and is above the 150 EUR limit.
The order were sent with IOSS number and all correct labels and documentation.
Who is correct: the German customs service or Bricklink?
Regards,
Helge
|
Hi Helge,
here is some ideas from me. I am not an expert on IOSS, but what i noticed is
this.
Norway is not in the EU, from an economic viewpoint.
So for the german customs it is labeled import.
The Value is added together (even with VAT) because they say, shipping is a logical
part of the product.
Which is then crashing the 150 € threshold for customs.
In the past, everything above 150€ was labeled for customs which were 7% on plastic
building toys. Then they charge "Import-Vat-Tax" on top of all this.
Ask the buyer, what the custom agency told him.
As an advice, you could write the buyer a confirmation email that the german
VAT tax has ALREADY been paid by you in the IOSS-System (or the buyer in that
sense), so the import level is way below the 150€ on a net-base, so neither Customs
or VAT on top has to be charged.
Hope that works out for both of you.
But it proves that those VAT-systems are pure BS, or better they should have
implemented all buerocratic bases first, and then add the sellers and buyers
handling as a last step.
But as always, they do first, and handle the broken backend later, so the paperpushers
have more work and thereby can say. "See, we are very important. Without us all
would be in shambles!"
Good luck
|
|
|
|
|
|
Norway
Luxembourg
France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Netherlands, Overijssel
Canada, British Columbia
Spain, Comunidad Valenciana
Belgium, Oost-Vlaanderen
Germany, Sachsen