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| | | Author: | Leftoverbricks  | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 11:28 | | Subject: | In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 212 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| It is often repeated in the forum that charging PayPal costs to the buyer would
be illegal in the EU. I was of that opinion myself.
However, this is not the case.
It is legal for a company to charge the customer the costs for paying
with PP with the restriction that only the actual cost charged by PP may be transferred
to the buyer; so not a plain fee or an overall percentage.
Source Google https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=paypal+transactiekosten+doorberekenen
Since the introduction of PSD2 (February 2019), companies are no longer allowed
to charge surcharges for payments with debit card, credit card (from Visa and
Mastercard), transfer and direct debit. This is allowed for other payment methods
such as PayPal, iDeal and post-payment methods such as Klarna and Afterpay.
An eye-opener for me.
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| | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 11:38 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 79 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | It is often repeated in the forum that charging PayPal costs to the buyer would
be illegal in the EU. I was of that opinion myself.
However, this is not the case.
It is legal for a company to charge the customer the costs for paying
with PP with the restriction that only the actual cost charged by PP may be transferred
to the buyer; so not a plain fee or an overall percentage.
Source Google https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=paypal+transactiekosten+doorberekenen
Since the introduction of PSD2 (February 2019), companies are no longer allowed
to charge surcharges for payments with debit card, credit card (from Visa and
Mastercard), transfer and direct debit. This is allowed for other payment methods
such as PayPal, iDeal and post-payment methods such as Klarna and Afterpay.
An eye-opener for me.
|
It is against PayPal Terms not against the Law, they say something in the lines
that you must not charge any fee for one Payment method you offer and not for
others, so the same for all or nothing for all.
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| | | | | | | Author: | Leftoverbricks | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 11:48 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 77 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, Stellar writes:
| | In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | It is often repeated in the forum that charging PayPal costs to the buyer would
be illegal in the EU. I was of that opinion myself.
However, this is not the case.
It is legal for a company to charge the customer the costs for paying
with PP with the restriction that only the actual cost charged by PP may be transferred
to the buyer; so not a plain fee or an overall percentage.
Source Google https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=paypal+transactiekosten+doorberekenen
Since the introduction of PSD2 (February 2019), companies are no longer allowed
to charge surcharges for payments with debit card, credit card (from Visa and
Mastercard), transfer and direct debit. This is allowed for other payment methods
such as PayPal, iDeal and post-payment methods such as Klarna and Afterpay.
An eye-opener for me.
|
It is against PayPal Terms not against the Law, they say something in the lines
that you must not charge any fee for one Payment method you offer and not for
others, so the same for all or nothing for all.
|
The laws of the EU are dominant, PP should obey these laws.
Here's a popular analogy: two persons (or companies) could make a legal contract
that one can kill the other without consequences. For the law however this is
still murder and you can't get away with your contract - even if it's
agreed upon between the participants.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Cob | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 12:39 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 56 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | In Selling, Stellar writes:
| | In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | It is often repeated in the forum that charging PayPal costs to the buyer would
be illegal in the EU. I was of that opinion myself.
However, this is not the case.
It is legal for a company to charge the customer the costs for paying
with PP with the restriction that only the actual cost charged by PP may be transferred
to the buyer; so not a plain fee or an overall percentage.
Source Google https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=paypal+transactiekosten+doorberekenen
Since the introduction of PSD2 (February 2019), companies are no longer allowed
to charge surcharges for payments with debit card, credit card (from Visa and
Mastercard), transfer and direct debit. This is allowed for other payment methods
such as PayPal, iDeal and post-payment methods such as Klarna and Afterpay.
An eye-opener for me.
|
It is against PayPal Terms not against the Law, they say something in the lines
that you must not charge any fee for one Payment method you offer and not for
others, so the same for all or nothing for all.
|
The laws of the EU are dominant, PP should obey these laws.
Here's a popular analogy: two persons (or companies) could make a legal contract
that one can kill the other without consequences. For the law however this is
still murder and you can't get away with your contract - even if it's
agreed upon between the participants.
|
Regardless of the laws, PayPal can discontinue doing business with anyone who
breaks their terms of service.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 15:09 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 65 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, Cob writes:
| | In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | In Selling, Stellar writes:
| | In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | It is often repeated in the forum that charging PayPal costs to the buyer would
be illegal in the EU. I was of that opinion myself.
However, this is not the case.
It is legal for a company to charge the customer the costs for paying
with PP with the restriction that only the actual cost charged by PP may be transferred
to the buyer; so not a plain fee or an overall percentage.
Source Google https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=paypal+transactiekosten+doorberekenen
Since the introduction of PSD2 (February 2019), companies are no longer allowed
to charge surcharges for payments with debit card, credit card (from Visa and
Mastercard), transfer and direct debit. This is allowed for other payment methods
such as PayPal, iDeal and post-payment methods such as Klarna and Afterpay.
An eye-opener for me.
|
It is against PayPal Terms not against the Law, they say something in the lines
that you must not charge any fee for one Payment method you offer and not for
others, so the same for all or nothing for all.
|
The laws of the EU are dominant, PP should obey these laws.
Here's a popular analogy: two persons (or companies) could make a legal contract
that one can kill the other without consequences. For the law however this is
still murder and you can't get away with your contract - even if it's
agreed upon between the participants.
|
Regardless of the laws, PayPal can discontinue doing business with anyone who
breaks their terms of service.
|
They might, but you can contest that on grounds of discrimination.
Whether you can afford the right laywer is another question.......
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Llewyn | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 13:00 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 60 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | The laws of the EU are dominant, PP should obey these laws.
Here's a popular analogy: two persons (or companies) could make a legal contract
that one can kill the other without consequences. For the law however this is
still murder and you can't get away with your contract - even if it's
agreed upon between the participants.
|
No, you're getting things completely the wrong way around here.
The EU legislation you cite says you are allowed to charge a fee, it does NOT
say that PayPal are not allowed to prevent you. The more correct analogy is that
EU law allows you to advertise your Brickowl store online, but Bricklink terms
prevent you from doing so here. Bricklink is not breaking EU law by doing so,
and neither are PayPal.
(Noted, thanks Sylvain, that national law may forbid such terms as it does in
France and the Netherlands at least, but that isn't your argument.)
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| | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 12:06 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 79 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, Stellar writes:
| | In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | It is often repeated in the forum that charging PayPal costs to the buyer would
be illegal in the EU. I was of that opinion myself.
However, this is not the case.
|
|
Yes, Teup generally chimes in in such discussions to remind us 
| | | | It is legal for a company to charge the customer the costs for paying
with PP with the restriction that only the actual cost charged by PP may be transferred
to the buyer; so not a plain fee or an overall percentage.
Source Google https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=paypal+transactiekosten+doorberekenen
Since the introduction of PSD2 (February 2019), companies are no longer allowed
to charge surcharges for payments with debit card, credit card (from Visa and
Mastercard), transfer and direct debit. This is allowed for other payment methods
such as PayPal, iDeal and post-payment methods such as Klarna and Afterpay.
An eye-opener for me.
|
It is against PayPal Terms not against the Law, they say something in the lines
that you must not charge any fee for one Payment method you offer and not for
others, so the same for all or nothing for all.
|
PayPal’s terms differ from country to country.
It’s against the law in France and has been for a long time to charge for using
a specific payment method (it means you can charge, but only the same for all,
and with the recent EU directive, not more than cost).
(You can make discounts though.)
From what you say, my guess is the Spanish laws say about the same and that’s
why PayPal’s terms say that in Spain.
I didn’t check recently but the terms where against the law in France as they
didn’t say that.
And also because it’s also against the law for a payment processor to forbid
their clients to charge a fee, or offer discounts, or promote other payment methods.
Unfortunately, this only means such PayPal terms are null and void; nothing more
can be done (fine, class action…).
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Leftoverbricks | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 12:17 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 58 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Selling, Stellar writes:
| | In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | It is often repeated in the forum that charging PayPal costs to the buyer would
be illegal in the EU. I was of that opinion myself.
However, this is not the case.
|
|
Yes, Teup generally chimes in in such discussions to remind us
| | | | It is legal for a company to charge the customer the costs for paying
with PP with the restriction that only the actual cost charged by PP may be transferred
to the buyer; so not a plain fee or an overall percentage.
Source Google https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=paypal+transactiekosten+doorberekenen
Since the introduction of PSD2 (February 2019), companies are no longer allowed
to charge surcharges for payments with debit card, credit card (from Visa and
Mastercard), transfer and direct debit. This is allowed for other payment methods
such as PayPal, iDeal and post-payment methods such as Klarna and Afterpay.
An eye-opener for me.
|
It is against PayPal Terms not against the Law, they say something in the lines
that you must not charge any fee for one Payment method you offer and not for
others, so the same for all or nothing for all.
|
PayPal’s terms differ from country to country.
It’s against the law in France and has been for a long time to charge for using
a specific payment method (it means you can charge, but only the same for all,
and with the recent EU directive, not more than cost).
(You can make discounts though.)
From what you say, my guess is the Spanish laws say about the same and that’s
why PayPal’s terms say that in Spain.
I didn’t check recently but the terms where against the law in France as they
didn’t say that.
And also because it’s also against the law for a payment processor to forbid
their clients to charge a fee, or offer discounts, or promote other payment methods.
Unfortunately, this only means such PayPal terms are null and void; nothing more
can be done (fine, class action…).
|
Thanks Sylvain. What PayPal says is what PayPal says. The legality however is
a different thing. It's simply not legal, see aforementioned analogy.
What we need is a European Parliamentarian who will put this on the map (to take
action to PP). It could just be a Frenchman. 
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 12:49 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | […]
Thanks Sylvain. What PayPal says is what PayPal says. The legality however is
a different thing. It's simply not legal, see aforementioned analogy.
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Yes, but it only makes the mentions null and void, and unlike a murder, they
can’t be sued over it (or for closing your account because of it).
| | What we need is a European Parliamentarian who will put this on the map (to take
action to PP). It could just be a Frenchman.
|
Oh, so I just need to get elected. Easy-peasy 
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Stuart9 | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 12:50 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 47 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| You’d have my vote but wrong nationality, sorry.
In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | […]
Thanks Sylvain. What PayPal says is what PayPal says. The legality however is
a different thing. It's simply not legal, see aforementioned analogy.
|
Yes, but it only makes the mentions null and void, and unlike a murder, they
can’t be sued over it (or for closing your account because of it).
| | What we need is a European Parliamentarian who will put this on the map (to take
action to PP). It could just be a Frenchman.
|
Oh, so I just need to get elected. Easy-peasy
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 12:59 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 50 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, Stuart9 writes:
| | You’d have my vote but wrong nationality, sorry.
|
Thanks
But nationality isn’t a problem: as you already moved South, you just need to
move a bit further South, wait a few year to ask for French nationality as a
resident and then you’ll be able to vote.
Well, you may have to wait a few years more before voting for me: the time I
get enough followers to make a 20-person list
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 19:18 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Selling, Stellar writes:
| | In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | It is often repeated in the forum that charging PayPal costs to the buyer would
be illegal in the EU. I was of that opinion myself.
However, this is not the case.
|
|
Yes, Teup generally chimes in in such discussions to remind us
|
Hi
As far as I can see, there's no immediate violation going on on PayPal's
side - if I recall right the EU directive restricts charging payment processing
fees to a maximum of the actual cost of processing, and then the PayPal
terms in many countries (not the Netherlands ) PayPal restricts this further
by disallowing charging their fees at all. No conflict there - there would be
a conflict if PayPal somehow demanded you to charge more than the actual fees.
However...
It does beg the question what such companies can get away with putting in their
terms. You cannot charge their fees in many countries. You are not even allowed
to speak negatively about PayPal. Yes. I am literally breaking their terms by
expressing my opinion here. You must make PayPal just as visible in your shop
as other payment methods - but if you enable some PayPal plugins in a webshop,
your webshop gets spammed with yellow banners everywhere on your website screaming
"YOU CAN PAY BY PAYPAL!! WHAT IS PAYPAL? CLICK HERE! YOU CAN PAY BY PAYPAL DID
YOU KNOW THAT??? DO IT NOW!" They put stuff in their terms not because it's
fair but simply because they get away with it.
And I have a problem with that. PayPal operates like one of these toxic venture
capital businesses - kill the competition, then go rampant on fees. With these
terms, PayPal found a way to cheat the natural capitalist free market priciple
where the person who decides is the person who pays. At PayPal, the customer
decides, but the shopkeeper pays. PayPal loves screaming everywhere that PayPal
is free, to get as much customers to choose their service as possible. And the
more customers choose it, the more PayPal tightens their grip on businesses and
increase their fees, because shopkeepers have no choice but to offer what the
customer wants. The costs of PayPal are deliberately being hidden in this way.
I recall 2 significant price increases over the years, and what's next? If
they reach their goal of every customer wanting PayPal, they can charge whatever
they like. I once posted a reply on one of their posts on Facebook that they're
actually not free and very expensive compared to other methods, and my comment
was removed and I was banned from commenting anything ever again on their posts.
That is how PayPal works. The truth has to be hidden at all costs.
So, I really like the concept of passing on fees to the customer for the sake
of transparency. As far as I can see it's the only remedy to the problem.
PayPal will be forced to charge a fair fee, just like every other service or
product. Unfortunately, the majority of customers on Bricklink are not used to
this the way we are used to it in the Netherlands (I get transaction fees tagged
on even if I order a pizza here, and I'm fine with it). So the dilemma for
me was whether to charge the fees or whether to match customer expectations.
My eventual solution was to just ditch PayPal completely And that happens
to save me a lot of transaction fee money
My personal opinion: It would be good if governments decided principally what
payment processing is allowed to cost, the same way the Dutch government decides
how much the postal service should cost, even though it's private business.
PayPal is just cheating the system with their hidden cost construction and it
needs to be tackled with policy.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 19:33 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| | | My eventual solution was to just ditch PayPal completely And that happens
to save me a lot of transaction fee money
|
Agree with almost all of this, but...
* PayPal is 80% our buyers payment mode (our accounting for 2020); I just can't
get rid of 80% of my orders 
* As myself as a buyer, I *do* appreciate when I buy (at any place), that PayPal
protects me. The last time I used PayPal protection (2 years ago) it was for
1000€+ order; never shipped, but all refunded. If I'd pay with IBAN, I'd
lose this.
* Some pay using their Credit Card, meaning (here) we pay the bill at the end
of each month, while IBAN and such are immediately debited. This is both a bit
dangerous, sure, but also UBER convenient if you correctly manage this delay.
Sincerely I also dislike it, but it has major pros...
Sylvain
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jan 6, 2022 10:46 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, 1001bricks writes:
| | | | My eventual solution was to just ditch PayPal completely And that happens
to save me a lot of transaction fee money
|
Agree with almost all of this, but...
* PayPal is 80% our buyers payment mode (our accounting for 2020); I just can't
get rid of 80% of my orders
* As myself as a buyer, I *do* appreciate when I buy (at any place), that PayPal
protects me. The last time I used PayPal protection (2 years ago) it was for
1000€+ order; never shipped, but all refunded. If I'd pay with IBAN, I'd
lose this.
* Some pay using their Credit Card, meaning (here) we pay the bill at the end
of each month, while IBAN and such are immediately debited. This is both a bit
dangerous, sure, but also UBER convenient if you correctly manage this delay.
Sincerely I also dislike it, but it has major pros...
Sylvain
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True, it was just my personal solution, not a recommendation for all I understand
why you need PayPal, which is after all a result of how PayPal works - they make
businesses need it. I'm just lucky that I can live without it because I happen
to live in a country where it's not so popular. Outside of Bricklink (most
of my sales), I actually do have PayPal enabled, but luckily only around 5% of
buyers use it.
You wouldn't lose 80% though - I think at least more than half of those would
agree to pay by Stripe's card method. And if Bricklink finally succeeds in
adding the payment methods they've been meaning to add for several years
now, you'd lose even less.
As for protection, true, it's a service and services cost money. But IMO
(again, just my opinion) I prefer the official authorities to protect me rather
than a private business, since A. who checks PayPal? They're not an authority
and their interest is usually to side with the buyer (useful though if you ARE
the buyer, as you said ) and B. I rather have things like protection as a
public service rather than funneling money to some foreign CEOs for keeping us
safe. However, it's probably going to take decades before the police has
a decent way of protecting us online.... (However, once I actually did get my
money back from a foreign scammer once as a result of a police report!)
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| | | | | Author: | Nicolasamico37 | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 12:28 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 67 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| Hi,
A lot of sellers charge for Paypal fees, a lot of them charge much more than
real fees. I charged buyers for fees (exact paypal costs) for a year, but from
now on, for a few months, I don't do it anymore. I think that I'm happy
to make sales and fees are not that important so I can take them for me. Buyers
are happy not to have additional fees.
Another problem is that some sellers haven't any "Terms and conditions" and
don't point out of anything.
I asked a seller for the shipping price for the 10261 RollerCoaster. I had a
reply: 23€ for the shipping. And there would be also 20€ handling fee ! He also
thought about raising his price, thinking he would make his sale !
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| | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 17:47 | | Subject: | Re: In the EU it is legal to charge PayPal costs! | | Viewed: | 63 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| Hi -
At least in FR PayPal Terms, they say: "You MAY (in your Country) invoice PayPal
fees IF it's legally allowed (in your Country)".
I again checked on May 2021, In France:
* you are NOT allowed to invoice payment fees,
* you are allowed to propose other payment methods, or to offer a rebate if they
chose another payment method, and PayPal are NOT allowed to forbid this in their
Terms.
In short, in France as of today:
* it's illegal to invoice PayPal fees,
* you can offer a rebate for an alternative payment method if you wish,
* PayPal terms cannot forbid you to do so.
That will depend of your own Country laws; please read them well.
Also, as a reminder: do NOT "bother" PayPal. PayPal can refuse to serve you.
This is for LIFE.
Please have a fine and better new Year - I guess it should be easy seeing what
the previous 2 have been
Sylvain
In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
| | It is often repeated in the forum that charging PayPal costs to the buyer would
be illegal in the EU. I was of that opinion myself.
However, this is not the case.
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| | | | | Author: | bricksonmove | | Posted: | Jan 5, 2022 22:51 | | Subject: | (Cancelled) | | Viewed: | 22 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| | (Cancelled) |
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Netherlands, Overijssel
Spain, Comunidad Valenciana
USA, Missouri
United Kingdom, England
France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Australia, Victoria