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| | | Author: | cosmicray  | | Posted: | Jun 12, 2021 14:50 | | Subject: | Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 190 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| Up until now, I have not ventured into the world of crypto, either sending, receiving,
or investing. Something this morning got my attention, and makes me wonder if
the time has arrived.
I live in a small rural north Florida community. Agriculture is big here. There
is a significant Latino community, many who work in agriculture, and many who
send remittances to their families. Up until now, that has been done via Western
Union. This morning, I happened to visit a local grocery store (which has a WU
terminal), and there sitting next to front door, is a Bitcoin (BTC) ATM. I get
why it's there. But this is the same store where I once received WU payments
for BrickLink orders. So BTC is now being treated on the same level as WU.
That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax.
This is not purely a question concerning cross-border transactions. With Florida
about to become an implemented state for sales tax via BL, this would concern
both domestic buyers and international ones. Remember, some of those same agricultural
workers, might prefer to orders toys and pay with BTC. Sooner or later this bridge
has to be crossed.
Older threads that touched on this subject ...
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1030130
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=780377
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=643205
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1267299
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1128576
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1258621
Nita Rae
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| | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 12, 2021 16:11 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 71 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | […]
That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax. […]
|
Here’s what I think is the problem with any offsite payment and taxes:
As BL can’t affect nor even see offsite transactions, there’s no practical way
for BL to collect taxes on them.
Let’s see what should be done and how it could (not) work:
First, BL would need to change the whole system to have two payments for each
order: one for the seller and one for BL.
Then the whole transaction should be blocked until the payment to BL is done.
BL can’t have buyers and sellers complete the transaction while the tax is not
paid. BL is responsible for the tax.
But how would BL block the transaction? BL has no real leverage, neither on
the buyer nor the seller, because the buyer can still pay the seller offsite
and the seller can still send the order without waiting for BL.
If the seller has been paid but not BL, what does the seller do? Wait for the
buyer to pay BL and be sued because they didn’t send what was paid? (The seller
is not responsible for the taxes but they are responsible for the order.)
If the seller eventually sends the package, BL is left holding the chamber pot
and can’t do nothing much than ban the buyer, for $10 in unpaid taxes….
Or does BL also ban the seller because they didn’t cancel/NPB the order when
they saw the buyer didn’t pay for the taxes the seller is not responsible for?
And if BL does the cancellation/NPB, how does BL check the seller refunded the
buyer and didn’t send the order anyway?
Too much liability on BL’s side, too complicated. What we’d call a gas plant
here (too many pipes, too many leaks).
Plus, the very first point: “BL would need to change the whole spaghetti dish.”
So it’s simpler to say NO for offsite payments and taxes.
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| | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Jun 12, 2021 17:07 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | […]
That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax. […]
|
Here’s what I think is the problem with any offsite payment and taxes:
As BL can’t affect nor even see offsite transactions, there’s no practical way
for BL to collect taxes on them.
|
Actually there is a way, but I am hesitant to even suggest it. It would cause
much consternation, and might be only available to those who are the most trusted
sellers.
Nita Rae
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | popsicle | | Posted: | Jun 12, 2021 17:11 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | In Payment Methods, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | […]
That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax. […]
|
Here’s what I think is the problem with any offsite payment and taxes:
As BL can’t affect nor even see offsite transactions, there’s no practical way
for BL to collect taxes on them.
|
Actually there is a way, but I am hesitant to even suggest it. It would cause
much consternation, and might be only available to those who are the most trusted
sellers.
|
+1
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 12, 2021 17:13 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | […]
| | As BL can’t affect nor even see offsite transactions, there’s no practical way
for BL to collect taxes on them.
|
Actually there is a way, but I am hesitant to even suggest it. It would cause
much consternation, and might be only available to those who are the most trusted
sellers.
|
Well, as my opinion hinges on the basis that BL can’t trust all sellers (and
all buyers), then we agree.
Champagne!
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| | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jun 12, 2021 18:11 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | […]
That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
|
|
[..]
Clearly there is another way. It involves a major change of the role of BL but
it is the way OMP's are going to be.
BL becomes the actual and only real seller on this site. Customers order from
BL and BL invoices customers including all neccessary taxes and vat. However,
BL can only sell what stores offer. So, current sellers become suppliers of goods
(instead of sellers). Once an order has been confirmed and paid, BL instructs
the supplier to send the goods to the customer. Etc.
Of course there are some legal things to be dealt with, especially between BL
and the suppliers. But it seems the only right way to go.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 12, 2021 18:41 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, patpendlego writes:
| | […]
Clearly there is another way. It involves a major change of the role of BL but
it is the way OMP's are going to be.
BL becomes the actual and only real seller on this site. Customers order from
BL and BL invoices customers including all neccessary taxes and vat. However,
BL can only sell what stores offer. So, current sellers become suppliers of goods
(instead of sellers). Once an order has been confirmed and paid, BL instructs
the supplier to send the goods to the customer. Etc.
Of course there are some legal things to be dealt with, especially between BL
and the suppliers. But it seems the only right way to go.
|
But even if BL (and marketplaces in general) were to go this way, I don’t think
they will start using offsite payment methods. They’ll stick with payment providers
that can ensure they are paid and that can link orders and payments, without
manual intervention.
So, all payment methods will be onsite and then you’re not answering the question,
you’re removing the possibility of the situtation in the question to happen 
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 12:30 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 29 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Payment Methods, patpendlego writes:
| | […]
Clearly there is another way. It involves a major change of the role of BL but
it is the way OMP's are going to be.
BL becomes the actual and only real seller on this site. Customers order from
BL and BL invoices customers including all neccessary taxes and vat. However,
BL can only sell what stores offer. So, current sellers become suppliers of goods
(instead of sellers). Once an order has been confirmed and paid, BL instructs
the supplier to send the goods to the customer. Etc.
Of course there are some legal things to be dealt with, especially between BL
and the suppliers. But it seems the only right way to go.
|
But even if BL (and marketplaces in general) were to go this way, I don’t think
they will start using offsite payment methods. They’ll stick with payment providers
that can ensure they are paid and that can link orders and payments, without
manual intervention.
|
Indeed I don't think so either. Too little control on that.
| |
So, all payment methods will be onsite and then you’re not answering the question,
you’re removing the possibility of the situtation in the question to happen
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LOL yeah simple avoid the issue completely
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 14:01 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Payment Methods, patpendlego writes:
| | […]
Clearly there is another way. It involves a major change of the role of BL but
it is the way OMP's are going to be.
BL becomes the actual and only real seller on this site. Customers order from
BL and BL invoices customers including all neccessary taxes and vat. However,
BL can only sell what stores offer. So, current sellers become suppliers of goods
(instead of sellers). Once an order has been confirmed and paid, BL instructs
the supplier to send the goods to the customer. Etc.
Of course there are some legal things to be dealt with, especially between BL
and the suppliers. But it seems the only right way to go.
|
But even if BL (and marketplaces in general) were to go this way, I don’t think
they will start using offsite payment methods.
|
There are two dates that enter into this discussion ... 18 November 2015 (when
onsite was automatically enabled for all new sellers) and 8 June 2017 (when offsite
was deleted for all new sellers). In theory, stores which predate 18 November
2015, can accept offsite. But, to some extent, that is being sequentially made
less usable because of sales tax and VAT collection. I have not heard anything
about older stores having any safe harbor. IBAN, which new stores can request
access to, may be less useful in the face of VAT. So offsite is slowly being
eroded, unless the seller and buyer agree to take the transaction completely
off BL. Because of ST collection, I'm, not even sure I could take a USPS
Money Order for the majority of US states.
In one sense, offsite is being neutered.
Nita Rae
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 14:50 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | In Payment Methods, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Payment Methods, patpendlego writes:
| | […]
Clearly there is another way. It involves a major change of the role of BL but
it is the way OMP's are going to be.
BL becomes the actual and only real seller on this site. Customers order from
BL and BL invoices customers including all neccessary taxes and vat. However,
BL can only sell what stores offer. So, current sellers become suppliers of goods
(instead of sellers). Once an order has been confirmed and paid, BL instructs
the supplier to send the goods to the customer. Etc.
Of course there are some legal things to be dealt with, especially between BL
and the suppliers. But it seems the only right way to go.
|
But even if BL (and marketplaces in general) were to go this way, I don’t think
they will start using offsite payment methods.
|
There are two dates that enter into this discussion ... 18 November 2015 (when
onsite was automatically enabled for all new sellers) and 8 June 2017 (when offsite
was deleted for all new sellers). In theory, stores which predate 18 November
2015, can accept offsite. But, to some extent, that is being sequentially made
less usable because of sales tax and VAT collection. I have not heard anything
about older stores having any safe harbor. IBAN, which new stores can request
access to, may be less useful in the face of VAT. So offsite is slowly being
eroded, unless the seller and buyer agree to take the transaction completely
off BL. Because of ST collection, I'm, not even sure I could take a USPS
Money Order for the majority of US states.
In one sense, offsite is being neutered.
Nita Rae
|
Nita, I agree with your statement with one exception: if the store in question
is trading margin goods (for which VAT is charged on total profit per quarter
of a year, instead of total order amount). In this case the marketplace simply
can't calculate or charge VAT per order because there is none.
Arnoud
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 20:06 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, patpendlego writes:
| | […]
| | IBAN, which new stores can request
access to, may be less useful in the face of VAT.
|
[…]
Nita, I agree with your statement with one exception: if the store in question
is trading margin goods (for which VAT is charged on total profit per quarter
of a year, instead of total order amount). In this case the marketplace simply
can't calculate or charge VAT per order because there is none.
|
You two are missing one thing (or jumping the gun¹): mandatory VAT collection
is only for imported goods now¹.
So no EU seller needs onsite payment for their EU customers. They only need
onsite methods for their UK and US buyers. The European Single Market is big
enough (about 450 million people) for many a small seller, especially if/as US
buyers tend to buy local (or continental) too.
¹ I don’t know if our taxing² overlords are thinking about it but, if we take
the new VAT scheme as an example, the directives (laws) were voted in 2017, and
are only applied now, 4 years later. And I don’t know how long it took from
the idea to the vot but even if they were to vote it tomorrow, there’s still
at least 4 or 5 years. Besides, I think the root idea is more about fighting
non-EU competition than collecting more taxes (which is still a nice added benefit).
² I so do LOVE this pun 
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| | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | Jun 12, 2021 19:08 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| If PayPal of Stripe allow cryptocurrency payments, then it can be converted in
US $ and BL can get its share to pay Sales tax or VAT.
In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax.
|
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| | | | | | | Author: | peregrinator | | Posted: | Jun 12, 2021 22:15 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, MrPetovan writes:
| | If PayPal of Stripe allow cryptocurrency payments, then it can be converted in
US $ and BL can get its share to pay Sales tax or VAT.
|
You can already buy crypto with PayPal (BTC or ETH) and then use that to pay
under certain circumstances (not on BL, I think). In this case PayPal sells your
crypto to convert it to $.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 10:22 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| Yes, I assume you’d be able to pay with US $ PayPal balance obtained through
cryptocurrency remmitance, but not directly with it.
In Payment Methods, peregrinator writes:
| | In Payment Methods, MrPetovan writes:
| | If PayPal of Stripe allow cryptocurrency payments, then it can be converted in
US $ and BL can get its share to pay Sales tax or VAT.
|
You can already buy crypto with PayPal (BTC or ETH) and then use that to pay
under certain circumstances (not on BL, I think). In this case PayPal sells your
crypto to convert it to $.
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| | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 07:11 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, MrPetovan writes:
| | If PayPal of Stripe allow cryptocurrency payments, then it can be converted in
US $ and BL can get its share to pay Sales tax or VAT.
In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax.
|
|
Which is why I won't accept PP or Strip for cross-border ... the dispute
resolution tilts heavily towards the buyer when crossing borders. Dragging PayPal
and Stripe back into the transaction is taking three steps backwards, to get
one step forward.
BTC, and it's virtual currency cousins, are really the wild west, but they
also restore the balance between the buyer and the seller. The issue here is
a matter of trust ... between the buyer and the seller, and between the seller
and BL.
Nita Rae
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 10:30 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| If you don’t accept PayPal or Stripe for cross-borders payments, doesn’t it mean
you trust foreigners less than Americans?
In the buyer-seller relationship that BL mediates, it favors the Buyer by default.
It’s a publicly assumed policy, and I don’t think changing the payment method
will change anything to this fact.
In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | Which is why I won't accept PP or Strip for cross-border ... the dispute
resolution tilts heavily towards the buyer when crossing borders. Dragging PayPal
and Stripe back into the transaction is taking three steps backwards, to get
one step forward.
BTC, and it's virtual currency cousins, are really the wild west, but they
also restore the balance between the buyer and the seller. The issue here is
a matter of trust ... between the buyer and the seller, and between the seller
and BL.
Nita Rae
|
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| | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 10:53 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
|
| In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | Up until now, I have not ventured into the world of crypto, either sending, receiving,
or investing. Something this morning got my attention, and makes me wonder if
the time has arrived.
I live in a small rural north Florida community. Agriculture is big here. There
is a significant Latino community, many who work in agriculture, and many who
send remittances to their families. Up until now, that has been done via Western
Union. This morning, I happened to visit a local grocery store (which has a WU
terminal), and there sitting next to front door, is a Bitcoin (BTC) ATM. I get
why it's there. But this is the same store where I once received WU payments
for BrickLink orders. So BTC is now being treated on the same level as WU.
That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax.
This is not purely a question concerning cross-border transactions. With Florida
about to become an implemented state for sales tax via BL, this would concern
both domestic buyers and international ones. Remember, some of those same agricultural
workers, might prefer to orders toys and pay with BTC. Sooner or later this bridge
has to be crossed.
Older threads that touched on this subject ...
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1030130
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=780377
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=643205
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1267299
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1128576
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1258621
Nita Rae
|
In regards to Crypto - my payment processor has recently issued a notice that
they no longer support transactions to buy/sell cryptocurrencies. I can't
remember if it was regarding all or just BTC.. but that's not terribly important
here. What's important is the fact itself.
Other thing - back when BL was bought by our Korean friend - BL was actually
looking into the possibilities of escrowing off-site transactions (IBAN). I assume
the idea got dropped once it was realized that this service is not going to be
provided for free. Keeping this in mind - I would keep my expectations reserved
in expecting BL to address our wishes in having more payment solutions available.
|
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| | | | | | | Author: | Kiks111 | | Posted: | Aug 19, 2021 07:27 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 71 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
|
| In Payment Methods, enig writes:
| | In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | Up until now, I have not ventured into the world of crypto, either sending, receiving,
or investing. Something this morning got my attention, and makes me wonder if
the time has arrived.
I live in a small rural north Florida community. Agriculture is big here. There
is a significant Latino community, many who work in agriculture, and many who
send remittances to their families. Up until now, that has been done via Western
Union. This morning, I happened to visit a local grocery store (which has a WU
terminal), and there sitting next to front door, is a Bitcoin (BTC) ATM. I get
why it's there. But this is the same store where I once received WU payments
for BrickLink orders. So BTC is now being treated on the same level as WU.
That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax.
This is not purely a question concerning cross-border transactions. With Florida
about to become an implemented state for sales tax via BL, this would concern
both domestic buyers and international ones. Remember, some of those same agricultural
workers, might prefer to orders toys and pay with BTC. Sooner or later this bridge
has to be crossed.
Older threads that touched on this subject ...
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1030130
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=780377
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=643205
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1267299
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1128576
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1258621
Nita Rae
|
In regards to Crypto - my payment processor has recently issued a notice that
they no longer support transactions to buy/sell cryptocurrencies. I can't
remember if it was regarding all or just BTC.. but that's not terribly important
here. What's important is the fact itself.
Other thing - back when BL was bought by our Korean friend - BL was actually
looking into the possibilities of escrowing off-site transactions (IBAN). I assume
the idea got dropped once it was realized that this service is not going to be
provided for free. Keeping this in mind - I would keep my expectations reserved
in expecting BL to address our wishes in having more payment solutions available.
|
I always pay with crypto where they have EllyPOS system ( https://elly.com/pos/en/mobile-soft-pos-system/
)
So far it works very well for me
|
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| | | | | Author: | Adjour | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 16:05 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| Not to get into a crypto discussion, but largely the users are either
speculators or people doing something illegal.
The whole point is to avoid being traced and to avoid taxes, government oversight
etc.
China want to crack down which is why cryptos tanked in price recently. Other
governments will follow right behind them. I honestly wouldn't worry about
missing anything, I'm of the opinion that it will be regulated
back into obsurity at some point, though one could argue we have another decade
to go.
I speculate on crypto to ride the hype and make some money, absolutely. Do I
"believe" in it as a currency replacement, absolutely not.
|
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| | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 16:51 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
|
| In Payment Methods, Adjour writes:
| | I speculate on crypto to ride the hype and make some money, absolutely. Do I
"believe" in it as a currency replacement, absolutely not.
|
Until two days ago, I would agree with you. Now that I see it's being used
to send remittances to other countries, it would appear to be a replacement for
WU. I have not investigated the relative costs tho. it is also possible that
the people using it are part of a group who do not have traditional bank accounts,
and need something that is more mobile. Something has certainly changed, and
the ATM vendors are responding to this change.
Nita Rae
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Adjour | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 17:20 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
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| In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | In Payment Methods, Adjour writes:
| | I speculate on crypto to ride the hype and make some money, absolutely. Do I
"believe" in it as a currency replacement, absolutely not.
|
Until two days ago, I would agree with you. Now that I see it's being used
to send remittances to other countries, it would appear to be a replacement for
WU. I have not investigated the relative costs tho. it is also possible that
the people using it are part of a group who do not have traditional bank accounts,
and need something that is more mobile. Something has certainly changed, and
the ATM vendors are responding to this change.
Nita Rae
|
Again, governments are moving to regulate it and even shut it down. It will be
hard or near impossible to do what you are describing in any capacity when that
occurs.
.02
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | leggodtshop | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 17:30 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
|
| In Payment Methods, Adjour writes:
| | In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | In Payment Methods, Adjour writes:
| | I speculate on crypto to ride the hype and make some money, absolutely. Do I
"believe" in it as a currency replacement, absolutely not.
|
Until two days ago, I would agree with you. Now that I see it's being used
to send remittances to other countries, it would appear to be a replacement for
WU. I have not investigated the relative costs tho. it is also possible that
the people using it are part of a group who do not have traditional bank accounts,
and need something that is more mobile. Something has certainly changed, and
the ATM vendors are responding to this change.
Nita Rae
|
Again, governments are moving to regulate it and even shut it down. It will be
hard or near impossible to do what you are describing in any capacity when that
occurs.
.02
|
I suspect that late adopters are in BC with so much real money ($$) they are
looking for a ways to get BC accepted broader in order to earn as much as possible
real money back. Ending it sometime near future in a giant soapbubble.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | wildchicken13 | | Posted: | Jun 14, 2021 01:05 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
|
| In Payment Methods, Adjour writes:
| | Not to get into a crypto discussion, but largely the users are either
speculators or people doing something illegal.
The whole point is to avoid being traced and to avoid taxes, government oversight
etc.
China want to crack down which is why cryptos tanked in price recently. Other
governments will follow right behind them. I honestly wouldn't worry about
missing anything, I'm of the opinion that it will be regulated
back into obsurity at some point, though one could argue we have another decade
to go.
I speculate on crypto to ride the hype and make some money, absolutely. Do I
"believe" in it as a currency replacement, absolutely not.
|
While I agree with you in that cryptocurrencies are kind of shady, not all governments
are cracking down on them. In fact, the U.S. Federal Reserve is considering creating
a digital currency of its own:
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/what-is-a-central-bank-digital-currency.htm
While I am not a financial expert and I don't fully understand what the differences
are between Bitcoin and this proposed digital currency, I don't think what
cosmicray is suggesting is that far-fetched.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Jun 14, 2021 07:22 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 24 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
|
| In Payment Methods, Adjour writes:
| | Not to get into a crypto discussion, but largely the users are either
speculators or people doing something illegal.
The whole point is to avoid being traced and to avoid taxes, government oversight
etc.
|
It has not been that long ago that India reissued their currency overnight. That
could be another reason why some people dislike the currency of their own country.
Nita Rae
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Heartbricker | | Posted: | Jun 13, 2021 22:29 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
|
| In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | Up until now, I have not ventured into the world of crypto, either sending, receiving,
or investing. Something this morning got my attention, and makes me wonder if
the time has arrived.
I live in a small rural north Florida community. Agriculture is big here. There
is a significant Latino community, many who work in agriculture, and many who
send remittances to their families. Up until now, that has been done via Western
Union. This morning, I happened to visit a local grocery store (which has a WU
terminal), and there sitting next to front door, is a Bitcoin (BTC) ATM. I get
why it's there. But this is the same store where I once received WU payments
for BrickLink orders. So BTC is now being treated on the same level as WU.
That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax.
This is not purely a question concerning cross-border transactions. With Florida
about to become an implemented state for sales tax via BL, this would concern
both domestic buyers and international ones. Remember, some of those same agricultural
workers, might prefer to orders toys and pay with BTC. Sooner or later this bridge
has to be crossed.
Older threads that touched on this subject ...
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1030130
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=780377
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=643205
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1267299
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1128576
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1258621
Nita Rae
|
Even though we seem to constantly be hearing about crypto currency; it is not
considered a legitimate form of currency by the government because it is decentralized
so governments have limited access to monitor its activity in their mission to
prosecute illegal activities from ransom to tax evasion.
Therefore; no government regulated financial institution (banks or PayPal etc.)
are allowed to process it therefore; Bricklink or any other sellers will not
be able to use it in transactions where taxes have to be collected (state taxes
or income taxes) without circumventing tax laws or Bricklink’s TOS.
The threshold for reporting income for taxation purposes is virtually $0 right
now so any use of decentralized currency for income purposes is not compliant
with the tax code.
The only legitimate reason that governments consider using crypto currency is
for transferring money rather than for business or trade reasons.
As long as crypto currency remains decentralized, it will not be considered a
lawful form of payment for goods or services.
Much of the tax code for reporting income that isn’t processed by a centralized
system (bank or PayPal) such as accepting crypto currency or cash or any other
tangible assets is based on “the honor system” where the IRS hopes that you report
it as required but most people take advantage of the this lack of supervision
but financial institutions are not able to process any payment without being
subjected to supervision.
Bottom line: as long as crypto currency remains decentralized: you won’t be able
to use it legitimately on Bricklink.
Once/if it becomes supervise-able by the government; you’ll be able to use crypto
currency but you won’t be able to call it a decentralized currency anymore…
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Jun 14, 2021 07:19 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
|
| In Payment Methods, Heartbricker writes:
| | In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | Up until now, I have not ventured into the world of crypto, either sending, receiving,
or investing. Something this morning got my attention, and makes me wonder if
the time has arrived.
I live in a small rural north Florida community. Agriculture is big here. There
is a significant Latino community, many who work in agriculture, and many who
send remittances to their families. Up until now, that has been done via Western
Union. This morning, I happened to visit a local grocery store (which has a WU
terminal), and there sitting next to front door, is a Bitcoin (BTC) ATM. I get
why it's there. But this is the same store where I once received WU payments
for BrickLink orders. So BTC is now being treated on the same level as WU.
That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax.
This is not purely a question concerning cross-border transactions. With Florida
about to become an implemented state for sales tax via BL, this would concern
both domestic buyers and international ones. Remember, some of those same agricultural
workers, might prefer to orders toys and pay with BTC. Sooner or later this bridge
has to be crossed.
Older threads that touched on this subject ...
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1030130
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=780377
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=643205
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1267299
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1128576
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1258621
Nita Rae
|
Even though we seem to constantly be hearing about crypto currency; it is not
considered a legitimate form of currency by the government because it is decentralized
so governments have limited access to monitor its activity in their mission to
prosecute illegal activities from ransom to tax evasion.
Therefore; no government regulated financial institution (banks or PayPal etc.)
are allowed to process it therefore; Bricklink or any other sellers will not
be able to use it in transactions where taxes have to be collected (state taxes
or income taxes) without circumventing tax laws or Bricklink’s TOS.
The threshold for reporting income for taxation purposes is virtually $0 right
now so any use of decentralized currency for income purposes is not compliant
with the tax code.
|
BitCoin (under the rubric of cryptocurrency) is certainly recognized by the IRS.
If you send, receive, or invest, there is a checkbox on the 1040 where you
are supposed to disclose that. It isn't so much treated as a liquid currency,
but as a fungible commodity. Compared to USD, it can gain or lose value, so it
is a commodity. A commodity which is being used to transact all kinds of business,
both legal and illegal. Think of it more like a bushel of corn, than a greenback.
The USA (and I'm sure other countries) has always had a shadow economy. An
economy which operates in the darkness. Bitcoin is merely an electronic
expression of that. USD has been used for untracked translations since the first
coin was minted.
| | The only legitimate reason that governments consider using crypto currency is
for transferring money rather than for business or trade reasons.
As long as crypto currency remains decentralized, it will not be considered a
lawful form of payment for goods or services.
Much of the tax code for reporting income that isn’t processed by a centralized
system (bank or PayPal) such as accepting crypto currency or cash or any other
tangible assets is based on “the honor system” where the IRS hopes that you report
it as required but most people take advantage of the this lack of supervision
but financial institutions are not able to process any payment without being
subjected to supervision.
Bottom line: as long as crypto currency remains decentralized: you won’t be able
to use it legitimately on Bricklink.
|
Just like the shadow economy, the IRS wants you to honestly report your activity.
The IRS's desire is to avoid cryptocurrency becoming de regure, and
beginning to replace USD for everyday unregulated transactions. eCurrency (denominated
in USD) is already beginning to supplant physical fiat. The big difference here
is that the US Treasury has no printing press to mint more Bitcoins. There is
a finite limit to how many can exist. As the perceived value of each goes up,
the divided portion that equals a USD gets smaller. It is ingenious in one sense.
Whether you like it or not, people are beginning to use it. The ATM I spotted
suggests sufficient regulatory hurdles have been overcome to make that possible.
That is the moment where my perception began to evolve.
Nita Rae
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Heartbricker | | Posted: | Jun 14, 2021 09:07 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
|
| In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | In Payment Methods, Heartbricker writes:
| | In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | Up until now, I have not ventured into the world of crypto, either sending, receiving,
or investing. Something this morning got my attention, and makes me wonder if
the time has arrived.
I live in a small rural north Florida community. Agriculture is big here. There
is a significant Latino community, many who work in agriculture, and many who
send remittances to their families. Up until now, that has been done via Western
Union. This morning, I happened to visit a local grocery store (which has a WU
terminal), and there sitting next to front door, is a Bitcoin (BTC) ATM. I get
why it's there. But this is the same store where I once received WU payments
for BrickLink orders. So BTC is now being treated on the same level as WU.
That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax.
This is not purely a question concerning cross-border transactions. With Florida
about to become an implemented state for sales tax via BL, this would concern
both domestic buyers and international ones. Remember, some of those same agricultural
workers, might prefer to orders toys and pay with BTC. Sooner or later this bridge
has to be crossed.
Older threads that touched on this subject ...
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1030130
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=780377
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=643205
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1267299
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1128576
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1258621
Nita Rae
|
Even though we seem to constantly be hearing about crypto currency; it is not
considered a legitimate form of currency by the government because it is decentralized
so governments have limited access to monitor its activity in their mission to
prosecute illegal activities from ransom to tax evasion.
Therefore; no government regulated financial institution (banks or PayPal etc.)
are allowed to process it therefore; Bricklink or any other sellers will not
be able to use it in transactions where taxes have to be collected (state taxes
or income taxes) without circumventing tax laws or Bricklink’s TOS.
The threshold for reporting income for taxation purposes is virtually $0 right
now so any use of decentralized currency for income purposes is not compliant
with the tax code.
|
BitCoin (under the rubric of cryptocurrency) is certainly recognized by the IRS.
If you send, receive, or invest, there is a checkbox on the 1040 where you
are supposed to disclose that. It isn't so much treated as a liquid currency,
but as a fungible commodity. Compared to USD, it can gain or lose value, so it
is a commodity. A commodity which is being used to transact all kinds of business,
both legal and illegal. Think of it more like a bushel of corn, than a greenback.
The USA (and I'm sure other countries) has always had a shadow economy. An
economy which operates in the darkness. Bitcoin is merely an electronic
expression of that. USD has been used for untracked translations since the first
coin was minted.
| | The only legitimate reason that governments consider using crypto currency is
for transferring money rather than for business or trade reasons.
As long as crypto currency remains decentralized, it will not be considered a
lawful form of payment for goods or services.
Much of the tax code for reporting income that isn’t processed by a centralized
system (bank or PayPal) such as accepting crypto currency or cash or any other
tangible assets is based on “the honor system” where the IRS hopes that you report
it as required but most people take advantage of the this lack of supervision
but financial institutions are not able to process any payment without being
subjected to supervision.
Bottom line: as long as crypto currency remains decentralized: you won’t be able
to use it legitimately on Bricklink.
|
Just like the shadow economy, the IRS wants you to honestly report your activity.
The IRS's desire is to avoid cryptocurrency becoming de regure, and
beginning to replace USD for everyday unregulated transactions. eCurrency (denominated
in USD) is already beginning to supplant physical fiat. The big difference here
is that the US Treasury has no printing press to mint more Bitcoins. There is
a finite limit to how many can exist. As the perceived value of each goes up,
the divided portion that equals a USD gets smaller. It is ingenious in one sense.
Whether you like it or not, people are beginning to use it. The ATM I spotted
suggests sufficient regulatory hurdles have been overcome to make that possible.
That is the moment where my perception began to evolve.
Nita Rae
|
I’m gonna sidestep the whole regulatory issue and say this:
I’d be very apprehensive about accepting crypto currency because of the way it
fluctuates so suddenly.
Here’s a scenario: a person buys an enormous amount of LEGO from us using one
Bitcoin that is worth $40,000, the following week Bitcoin doubles in price and
the buyer figured out that if they returned all the merchandise (even after paying
shipping) they will receive back from PayPal 1 Bitcoin that is now worth $80,000
- we all know PayPals (and most other payment processors’) proclivity to side
with buyers so all the work and supplies and shipping cost we have put into the
order will be gone.
Crypto currency will not be adopted as payment method by any OMP until it is
adopted by regulated financial institutions so in order to accept payment for
an order that has any taxes that Bricklink (or any other OMP) has to collect;
you’ll be either breaking the law (unless you collect and remit the taxes to
each state a buyer has sent you payment from which is an expensive and time consuming
process) or/and break Bricklink’s terms of service and risk your place on the
platform.
Bottom line: this isn’t happening until PayPal/stripe or any other payment processor
BrickLink is connected to starts accepting digital currency as a form of payment.
Demanding such services from Bricklink is barking at the wrong tree since they
are not payment processors.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Jun 14, 2021 12:34 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
|
| In Payment Methods, Heartbricker writes:
| | Bottom line: this isn’t happening until PayPal/stripe or any other payment processor
BrickLink is connected to starts accepting digital currency as a form of payment.
Demanding such services from Bricklink is barking at the wrong tree since they
are not payment processors.
|
If BL could still collect/remit the ST and VAT, I think their resistance to Bitcoin
just might soften. Solving that problem, in a way that the sellers are willing
to accept, also goes a long way to opening the door to other offsite payment
methods (e.g. IBAN). This is not purely a Bitcoin issue, but Bitcoin makes the
issue glaringly obvious.
Nita Rae
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | TedNFlitsBricks | | Posted: | Jul 10, 2021 10:42 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
|
| In Payment Methods, Heartbricker writes:
| | In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | Up until now, I have not ventured into the world of crypto, either sending, receiving,
or investing. Something this morning got my attention, and makes me wonder if
the time has arrived.
I live in a small rural north Florida community. Agriculture is big here. There
is a significant Latino community, many who work in agriculture, and many who
send remittances to their families. Up until now, that has been done via Western
Union. This morning, I happened to visit a local grocery store (which has a WU
terminal), and there sitting next to front door, is a Bitcoin (BTC) ATM. I get
why it's there. But this is the same store where I once received WU payments
for BrickLink orders. So BTC is now being treated on the same level as WU.
That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax.
|
|
| |
Even though we seem to constantly be hearing about crypto currency; it is not
considered a legitimate form of currency by the government because it is decentralized
so governments have limited access to monitor its activity in their mission to
prosecute illegal activities from ransom to tax evasion.
Therefore; no government regulated financial institution (banks or PayPal etc.)
are allowed to process it therefore; Bricklink or any other sellers will not
be able to use it in transactions where taxes have to be collected (state taxes
or income taxes) without circumventing tax laws or Bricklink’s TOS.
The threshold for reporting income for taxation purposes is virtually $0 right
now so any use of decentralized currency for income purposes is not compliant
with the tax code.
The only legitimate reason that governments consider using crypto currency is
for transferring money rather than for business or trade reasons.
As long as crypto currency remains decentralized, it will not be considered a
lawful form of payment for goods or services.
Much of the tax code for reporting income that isn’t processed by a centralized
system (bank or PayPal) such as accepting crypto currency or cash or any other
tangible assets is based on “the honor system” where the IRS hopes that you report
it as required but most people take advantage of the this lack of supervision
but financial institutions are not able to process any payment without being
subjected to supervision.
Bottom line: as long as crypto currency remains decentralized: you won’t be able
to use it legitimately on Bricklink.
Once/if it becomes supervise-able by the government; you’ll be able to use crypto
currency but you won’t be able to call it a decentralized currency anymore…
|
There is also the conversation of whether or not cryptocurrency should be treated
as a "currency" or as a form of property.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | molten.brick | | Posted: | Jul 10, 2021 11:13 | | Subject: | Re: Bitcoin, how would it work with VAT or ST ? | | Viewed: | 29 times | | Topic: | Payment Methods | |
|
| I do believe that in Australia - cryto data, whether you gain or lose is updated,
and therefore taxed accordingly, directly to our taxation department.
Whatever gains you make you pay tax on, but whatever you lose you gain tax credits
on. Lol vicious!
In Payment Methods, TedNFlitsBricks writes:
| | In Payment Methods, Heartbricker writes:
| | In Payment Methods, cosmicray writes:
| | Up until now, I have not ventured into the world of crypto, either sending, receiving,
or investing. Something this morning got my attention, and makes me wonder if
the time has arrived.
I live in a small rural north Florida community. Agriculture is big here. There
is a significant Latino community, many who work in agriculture, and many who
send remittances to their families. Up until now, that has been done via Western
Union. This morning, I happened to visit a local grocery store (which has a WU
terminal), and there sitting next to front door, is a Bitcoin (BTC) ATM. I get
why it's there. But this is the same store where I once received WU payments
for BrickLink orders. So BTC is now being treated on the same level as WU.
That leads to my question ... How could BTC payments (which are offsite) be handled
by BL, to account for VAT or Sales Tax collection ? I don't believe that
BL is getting involved with offsite payments, other than denying the ability
for buyers to use offsite for those states where BL is collecting/remitting sales
tax.
|
|
| |
Even though we seem to constantly be hearing about crypto currency; it is not
considered a legitimate form of currency by the government because it is decentralized
so governments have limited access to monitor its activity in their mission to
prosecute illegal activities from ransom to tax evasion.
Therefore; no government regulated financial institution (banks or PayPal etc.)
are allowed to process it therefore; Bricklink or any other sellers will not
be able to use it in transactions where taxes have to be collected (state taxes
or income taxes) without circumventing tax laws or Bricklink’s TOS.
The threshold for reporting income for taxation purposes is virtually $0 right
now so any use of decentralized currency for income purposes is not compliant
with the tax code.
The only legitimate reason that governments consider using crypto currency is
for transferring money rather than for business or trade reasons.
As long as crypto currency remains decentralized, it will not be considered a
lawful form of payment for goods or services.
Much of the tax code for reporting income that isn’t processed by a centralized
system (bank or PayPal) such as accepting crypto currency or cash or any other
tangible assets is based on “the honor system” where the IRS hopes that you report
it as required but most people take advantage of the this lack of supervision
but financial institutions are not able to process any payment without being
subjected to supervision.
Bottom line: as long as crypto currency remains decentralized: you won’t be able
to use it legitimately on Bricklink.
Once/if it becomes supervise-able by the government; you’ll be able to use crypto
currency but you won’t be able to call it a decentralized currency anymore…
|
There is also the conversation of whether or not cryptocurrency should be treated
as a "currency" or as a form of property.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
USA, Florida
France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Netherlands, Overijssel
Lithuania, Panevėžys
Australia, Tasmania