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| | | Author: | Legondary  | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 05:00 | | Subject: | New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 184 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| Hi,
Quick question to this group...
Apparently there are some changes to the EU VAT legislation with regards to E-commerce
or web shops.
From the 1st of July, when you operate an e-commerce business with generated
income of over 10.000€, you will need to charge the VAT rate of the country of
which you are selling to.
Eg. I sell over 10K€ per year. If I sell (based in Belgium) to France, I will
need to apply the French VAT rate on my order instead of the Belgian VAT rate.
Selling platforms like E-bay, Amazon, Bol.com and therefor in my opinion, BL
as well, will need to enable this way of invoicing.
Do any of you guys or girls know more about this?
I am including a link, if this is allowed?
https://business.trustedshops.nl/blog/btw-in-e-commerce
https://www.emerce.nl/achtergrond/nieuwe-btwregels-ecommerce-actiepunten-ondernemers
Kind regards,
Nick
|
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| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 06:14 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 73 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Legondary writes:
| | Hi,
Quick question to this group...
Apparently there are some changes to the EU VAT legislation with regards to E-commerce
or web shops.
From the 1st of July, when you operate an e-commerce business with generated
income of over 10.000€, you will need to charge the VAT rate of the country of
which you are selling to.
Eg. I sell over 10K€ per year. If I sell (based in Belgium) to France, I will
need to apply the French VAT rate on my order instead of the Belgian VAT rate.
Selling platforms like E-bay, Amazon, Bol.com and therefor in my opinion, BL
as well, will need to enable this way of invoicing.
Do any of you guys or girls know more about this?
I am including a link, if this is allowed?
https://business.trustedshops.nl/blog/btw-in-e-commerce
https://www.emerce.nl/achtergrond/nieuwe-btwregels-ecommerce-actiepunten-ondernemers
Kind regards,
Nick
|
Thanks for the headsup, didn't hear about this before. Will be interesting
to see how Bricklink is going to handle this one and if they manage to get it
done before July. It's also gonna require some work from the sellers to get
their administration organised per country.
For independent webshops this is going to be near impossible to implement in
the way it was intended - typically products just have a listing price and the
administration is calculated afterwards. The easiest way to accommodate the new
system, then, would be to simply count a higher ex-VAT price on the invoice for
countries with a lower VAT percentage, so that the listed prices remain constant.
Bottomline, nothing really changes, just more hassle for businesses, dealing
with dozens of figures instead of just one EU figure. No idea what they're
trying to gain with this.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | paulvdb | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 06:25 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 57 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Teup writes:
| | Bottomline, nothing really changes, just more hassle for businesses, dealing
with dozens of figures instead of just one EU figure. No idea what they're
trying to gain with this.
|
Preventing tax avoidance probably. Under the current rules a business could base
themselves in the country with the lowest VAT rate and charge lower prices to
their buyers and/or make more profit. There are already limits per country but
they are much higher than the new limit of 10000 EUR for sales to the whole EU.
So right now only large shops (for example Amazon) already have to charge the
VAT rate of the buyer's country.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | kaat | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 08:43 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| FYI There was a webinar hosted by the dutch tax agency in April that has some
interesting details and explanations. It's in dutch though. See: https://channel.royalcast.com/belastingdienst/#!/belastingdienst/20210420_1
You might want to apply for the One-stop solution ("Unieregeling" in dutch).
In General, Teup writes:
| | In General, Legondary writes:
| | Hi,
Quick question to this group...
Apparently there are some changes to the EU VAT legislation with regards to E-commerce
or web shops.
From the 1st of July, when you operate an e-commerce business with generated
income of over 10.000€, you will need to charge the VAT rate of the country of
which you are selling to.
Eg. I sell over 10K€ per year. If I sell (based in Belgium) to France, I will
need to apply the French VAT rate on my order instead of the Belgian VAT rate.
Selling platforms like E-bay, Amazon, Bol.com and therefor in my opinion, BL
as well, will need to enable this way of invoicing.
Do any of you guys or girls know more about this?
I am including a link, if this is allowed?
https://business.trustedshops.nl/blog/btw-in-e-commerce
https://www.emerce.nl/achtergrond/nieuwe-btwregels-ecommerce-actiepunten-ondernemers
Kind regards,
Nick
|
Thanks for the headsup, didn't hear about this before. Will be interesting
to see how Bricklink is going to handle this one and if they manage to get it
done before July. It's also gonna require some work from the sellers to get
their administration organised per country.
For independent webshops this is going to be near impossible to implement in
the way it was intended - typically products just have a listing price and the
administration is calculated afterwards. The easiest way to accommodate the new
system, then, would be to simply count a higher ex-VAT price on the invoice for
countries with a lower VAT percentage, so that the listed prices remain constant.
Bottomline, nothing really changes, just more hassle for businesses, dealing
with dozens of figures instead of just one EU figure. No idea what they're
trying to gain with this.
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 09:29 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| Thanks! Will check it later. Does that solution require application? I thought
it would work just like the "kleine ondernemersregeling": you can just apply
it or not.. since I don't see any more info on it.. did I miss something?
In General, kaat writes:
| | FYI There was a webinar hosted by the dutch tax agency in April that has some
interesting details and explanations. It's in dutch though. See: https://channel.royalcast.com/belastingdienst/#!/belastingdienst/20210420_1
You might want to apply for the One-stop solution ("Unieregeling" in dutch).
In General, Teup writes:
| | In General, Legondary writes:
| | Hi,
Quick question to this group...
Apparently there are some changes to the EU VAT legislation with regards to E-commerce
or web shops.
From the 1st of July, when you operate an e-commerce business with generated
income of over 10.000€, you will need to charge the VAT rate of the country of
which you are selling to.
Eg. I sell over 10K€ per year. If I sell (based in Belgium) to France, I will
need to apply the French VAT rate on my order instead of the Belgian VAT rate.
Selling platforms like E-bay, Amazon, Bol.com and therefor in my opinion, BL
as well, will need to enable this way of invoicing.
Do any of you guys or girls know more about this?
I am including a link, if this is allowed?
https://business.trustedshops.nl/blog/btw-in-e-commerce
https://www.emerce.nl/achtergrond/nieuwe-btwregels-ecommerce-actiepunten-ondernemers
Kind regards,
Nick
|
Thanks for the headsup, didn't hear about this before. Will be interesting
to see how Bricklink is going to handle this one and if they manage to get it
done before July. It's also gonna require some work from the sellers to get
their administration organised per country.
For independent webshops this is going to be near impossible to implement in
the way it was intended - typically products just have a listing price and the
administration is calculated afterwards. The easiest way to accommodate the new
system, then, would be to simply count a higher ex-VAT price on the invoice for
countries with a lower VAT percentage, so that the listed prices remain constant.
Bottomline, nothing really changes, just more hassle for businesses, dealing
with dozens of figures instead of just one EU figure. No idea what they're
trying to gain with this.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | paulvdb | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 09:42 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Teup writes:
| | Thanks! Will check it later. Does that solution require application? I thought
it would work just like the "kleine ondernemersregeling": you can just apply
it or not.. since I don't see any more info on it.. did I miss something?
In General, kaat writes:
|
According to https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/nl/btw/content/e-commerce-en-diensten-in-de-eu-kijk-wat-er-verandert-voor-de-btw-x
you should continue to charge your customers 21% Dutch VAT if you sell less than
10000 EUR to other EU countries. You only have to register if you want to charge
the buyer's country's VAT rate.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | kaat | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 09:55 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, paulvdb writes:
You either register in every EU country (that you sell to) and submit VAT statements
to each of them. Or, you register in a single EU country of choice and use the
OneStop method, which is called "Unieregeling" in Dutch. For this you need to
apply via "Mijn Belastingdienst Zakelijk". Then, you submit all EU VAT related
things in one go (next to the domestic VAT, so you have more paperwork in any
case).
Do watch the webinar, it has several examples and I found it worth the hour and
a half it took.
|
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 11:27 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, kaat writes:
| | In General, paulvdb writes:
You either register in every EU country (that you sell to) and submit VAT statements
to each of them. Or, you register in a single EU country of choice and use the
OneStop method, which is called "Unieregeling" in Dutch. For this you need to
apply via "Mijn Belastingdienst Zakelijk". Then, you submit all EU VAT related
things in one go (next to the domestic VAT, so you have more paperwork in any
case).
Do watch the webinar, it has several examples and I found it worth the hour and
a half it took.
|
Ok, will do. I guess that's going to make some extra fields appear on the
VAT report. Well, that was an awkward system anyway, where I had to report EU
sales as if they are "domestic" sales. (There was an EU field but it was only
intended for B2B.)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 12:03 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | General | |
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| In General, Teup writes:
| | […]
Well, that was an awkward system anyway, where I had to report EU
sales as if they are "domestic" sales. […]
|
But they were “domestic”: the point of sale was considered to be your home.
That’s what changes now: the point of sale is the buyer’s home (if you sell more
than €10,000 or if you choose to).
I think that’s an improvement… well, not on the paperwork side but at least as
a clarification: it was a nightmare before because it depended on what was sold,
to simplify material vs. electronic.
(Especially a nightmare because of tax evasion / optimization I guess.)
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 13:13 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, SylvainLS writes:
| | In General, Teup writes:
| | […]
Well, that was an awkward system anyway, where I had to report EU
sales as if they are "domestic" sales. […]
|
But they were “domestic”: the point of sale was considered to be your home.
That’s what changes now: the point of sale is the buyer’s home (if you sell more
than €10,000 or if you choose to).
I think that’s an improvement… well, not on the paperwork side but at least as
a clarification: it was a nightmare before because it depended on what was sold,
to simplify material vs. electronic.
(Especially a nightmare because of tax evasion / optimization I guess.)
|
Well, I mean, it was just a gimmick of the Dutch tax site. I had to report my
sales to NL, to EU and to the rest of the world, and there was this strange custom
where you had to write your sales to EU down in the "NL" field. Otherwise it
would trigger an intracommunity transaction for (=B2B sale, with VAT IDs and
all). Clearly, the system assumes that consumers are all located in your own
country and sales to other countries must be business sales. Something from another
era I suppose 
I'm still highly confused if BL WILL or WILL NOT act as the seller for VAT
purposes for transactions within the EU. But I'll watch the webinar kaat
posted when I have time and I assume that will clear it up.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 13:55 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Teup writes:
| | […]
Well, I mean, it was just a gimmick of the Dutch tax site. I had to report my
sales to NL, to EU and to the rest of the world, and there was this strange custom
where you had to write your sales to EU down in the "NL" field. Otherwise it
would trigger an intracommunity transaction for (=B2B sale, with VAT IDs and
all). Clearly, the system assumes that consumers are all located in your own
country and sales to other countries must be business sales. Something from another
era I suppose
|
Well, VAT-wise, you have:
1. sales where you collect VAT,
2. sales where you don’t collect VAT and the buyer is supposed to auto-collect,
3. sales where you export out of EU and VAT is 0%.
The first two types can be local or intra-EU.
And, statistics-wise, your country wants to know how the sales are distributed
between local, EU, & out of UE.
The two are different, therefore different entries (plus, they always want you
to fill the same numbers in different ways so that they can catch “errors” 
).
| | I'm still highly confused if BL WILL or WILL NOT act as the seller for VAT
purposes for transactions within the EU.
|
AFAIK, there’s still no laws to make or even authorize BL to do that.
| | But I'll watch the webinar kaat
posted when I have time and I assume that will clear it up.
|
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 15:06 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, SylvainLS writes:
| | In General, Teup writes:
| | […]
Well, I mean, it was just a gimmick of the Dutch tax site. I had to report my
sales to NL, to EU and to the rest of the world, and there was this strange custom
where you had to write your sales to EU down in the "NL" field. Otherwise it
would trigger an intracommunity transaction for (=B2B sale, with VAT IDs and
all). Clearly, the system assumes that consumers are all located in your own
country and sales to other countries must be business sales. Something from another
era I suppose
|
Well, VAT-wise, you have:
1. sales where you collect VAT,
2. sales where you don’t collect VAT and the buyer is supposed to auto-collect,
3. sales where you export out of EU and VAT is 0%.
The first two types can be local or intra-EU.
And, statistics-wise, your country wants to know how the sales are distributed
between local, EU, & out of UE.
The two are different, therefore different entries (plus, they always want you
to fill the same numbers in different ways so that they can catch “errors”
).
| | I'm still highly confused if BL WILL or WILL NOT act as the seller for VAT
purposes for transactions within the EU.
|
AFAIK, there’s still no laws to make or even authorize BL to do that.
|
Oh... That would've saved a lot of paperwork...
Then it will be on us but with a setting (hopefully for July 1st 2021) on BL
to charge VAT % according to the consumer country.
| |
| | But I'll watch the webinar kaat
posted when I have time and I assume that will clear it up.
|
|
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 17:13 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 49 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Stellar writes:
| | In General, SylvainLS writes:
| | In General, Teup writes:
| | […]
Well, I mean, it was just a gimmick of the Dutch tax site. I had to report my
sales to NL, to EU and to the rest of the world, and there was this strange custom
where you had to write your sales to EU down in the "NL" field. Otherwise it
would trigger an intracommunity transaction for (=B2B sale, with VAT IDs and
all). Clearly, the system assumes that consumers are all located in your own
country and sales to other countries must be business sales. Something from another
era I suppose
|
Well, VAT-wise, you have:
1. sales where you collect VAT,
2. sales where you don’t collect VAT and the buyer is supposed to auto-collect,
3. sales where you export out of EU and VAT is 0%.
The first two types can be local or intra-EU.
And, statistics-wise, your country wants to know how the sales are distributed
between local, EU, & out of UE.
The two are different, therefore different entries (plus, they always want you
to fill the same numbers in different ways so that they can catch “errors”
).
|
|
Yeah, that makes sense, in the current tax layout here we only have 3 flavours:
"Dutch consumers + businesses", "EU businesses" and "world". So EU consumers
were kind of awkwardly dubbed "Dutch consumers" only to produce the correct VAT
result.. So yeah, I can see how that needs a makeover
| | | |
| | I'm still highly confused if BL WILL or WILL NOT act as the seller for VAT
purposes for transactions within the EU.
|
AFAIK, there’s still no laws to make or even authorize BL to do that.
|
Oh... That would've saved a lot of paperwork...
|
Yep, and a less friendly benefit to you, it would pretty much kill the hobby
sellers. If I am correct in assuming BL would be forced to charge VAT over all
sales. Bad for the hobby sellers, great for businesses. Although fewer hobby
sellers would mean less traffic to Bricklink, too. Will be interesting to see
if it ends up going in that direction or not.
| | Then it will be on us but with a setting (hopefully for July 1st 2021) on BL
to charge VAT % according to the consumer country.
|
It's a nice acid test to see if Bricklink is indeed on a track of starting
to take sellers seriously. They had some time to prepare it, it's a fairly
simple change for them, and it's an important change. 3 reasons why it should
just work on July 1st IMO.
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| | | | | Author: | paulvdb | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 06:21 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 61 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Legondary writes:
| | From the 1st of July, when you operate an e-commerce business with generated
income of over 10.000€, you will need to charge the VAT rate of the country of
which you are selling to.
|
This is not entirely correct (or maybe a bit too simplified). If you sell more
than 10000 EUR to other EU countries you will have to charge the VAT rate of
the buyer's country. If you stay below the limit you may charge your own
country's VAT rate but you can voluntarily choose to charge the buyer's
country's VAT rate on all your sales.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | kaat | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 08:46 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, paulvdb writes:
| | In General, Legondary writes:
| | From the 1st of July, when you operate an e-commerce business with generated
income of over 10.000€, you will need to charge the VAT rate of the country of
which you are selling to.
|
This is not entirely correct (or maybe a bit too simplified). If you sell more
than 10000 EUR to other EU countries you will have to charge the VAT rate of
the buyer's country. If you stay below the limit you may charge your own
country's VAT rate but you can voluntarily choose to charge the buyer's
country's VAT rate on all your sales.
|
Indeed. Also, it's 10K to consumers. A sale to a EU business does not count,
as these would normally be taxed at 0% via the reverse charge.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | ZwarteMagica | | Posted: | Jun 2, 2021 06:49 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| If you go over €10k per country you are required to register in that country.
If you choose to apply the buyers tax rate you are also required to register
in that country. If both do not apply you are allowed to follow your local rules.
This counts for the Netherlands, but as far as my knowledge goes it is the same
in the whole EU.
In General, paulvdb writes:
| | In General, Legondary writes:
| | From the 1st of July, when you operate an e-commerce business with generated
income of over 10.000€, you will need to charge the VAT rate of the country of
which you are selling to.
|
This is not entirely correct (or maybe a bit too simplified). If you sell more
than 10000 EUR to other EU countries you will have to charge the VAT rate of
the buyer's country. If you stay below the limit you may charge your own
country's VAT rate but you can voluntarily choose to charge the buyer's
country's VAT rate on all your sales.
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 2, 2021 07:48 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| That's the old system, read the other posts for the new.
In short,
The bad news: there will be a single €10.000 limit for all foreign EU countries
combined.
The good news: you can register for the OSS ("unieregeling") so you can do it
all in one domestic report instead of having to deal with different foreign agencies:
https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/nl/btw/content/e-commerce-en-diensten-in-de-eu-kijk-wat-er-verandert-voor-de-btw-x
So yes, big sellers are going to have to keep track of sales per individual country
from now on.
In General, ZwarteMagica writes:
| | If you go over €10k per country you are required to register in that country.
If you choose to apply the buyers tax rate you are also required to register
in that country. If both do not apply you are allowed to follow your local rules.
This counts for the Netherlands, but as far as my knowledge goes it is the same
in the whole EU.
In General, paulvdb writes:
| | In General, Legondary writes:
| | From the 1st of July, when you operate an e-commerce business with generated
income of over 10.000€, you will need to charge the VAT rate of the country of
which you are selling to.
|
This is not entirely correct (or maybe a bit too simplified). If you sell more
than 10000 EUR to other EU countries you will have to charge the VAT rate of
the buyer's country. If you stay below the limit you may charge your own
country's VAT rate but you can voluntarily choose to charge the buyer's
country's VAT rate on all your sales.
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ZwarteMagica | | Posted: | Jun 2, 2021 08:36 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| Dank je voor je reactie en link Teup!
In General, Teup writes:
| | That's the old system, read the other posts for the new.
In short,
The bad news: there will be a single €10.000 limit for all foreign EU countries
combined.
The good news: you can register for the OSS ("unieregeling") so you can do it
all in one domestic report instead of having to deal with different foreign agencies:
https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/nl/btw/content/e-commerce-en-diensten-in-de-eu-kijk-wat-er-verandert-voor-de-btw-x
So yes, big sellers are going to have to keep track of sales per individual country
from now on.
In General, ZwarteMagica writes:
| | If you go over €10k per country you are required to register in that country.
If you choose to apply the buyers tax rate you are also required to register
in that country. If both do not apply you are allowed to follow your local rules.
This counts for the Netherlands, but as far as my knowledge goes it is the same
in the whole EU.
In General, paulvdb writes:
| | In General, Legondary writes:
| | From the 1st of July, when you operate an e-commerce business with generated
income of over 10.000€, you will need to charge the VAT rate of the country of
which you are selling to.
|
This is not entirely correct (or maybe a bit too simplified). If you sell more
than 10000 EUR to other EU countries you will have to charge the VAT rate of
the buyer's country. If you stay below the limit you may charge your own
country's VAT rate but you can voluntarily choose to charge the buyer's
country's VAT rate on all your sales.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 06:57 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 52 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Legondary writes:
| | Hi,
Quick question to this group...
Apparently there are some changes to the EU VAT legislation with regards to E-commerce
or web shops.
From the 1st of July, when you operate an e-commerce business with generated
income of over 10.000€, you will need to charge the VAT rate of the country of
which you are selling to.
Eg. I sell over 10K€ per year. If I sell (based in Belgium) to France, I will
need to apply the French VAT rate on my order instead of the Belgian VAT rate.
Selling platforms like E-bay, Amazon, Bol.com and therefor in my opinion, BL
as well, will need to enable this way of invoicing.
Do any of you guys or girls know more about this?
I am including a link, if this is allowed?
https://business.trustedshops.nl/blog/btw-in-e-commerce
https://www.emerce.nl/achtergrond/nieuwe-btwregels-ecommerce-actiepunten-ondernemers
Kind regards,
Nick
|
Here is the official EU website link:
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/vat-e-commerce_en
The existing thresholds for distance sales of goods within the EU will be
abolished and replaced by a new EU-wide threshold of EUR 10 000. Below this EUR
10 000 threshold, the supplies of TBE (telecommunications, broadcasting and electronic)
services and distance sales of goods within the EU may remain subject to VAT
in the Member State where the taxable person is established.
The best would be if BL handles it like the orders to UK but with accepting offsite
payment methods too, like IBAN.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 07:27 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Stellar writes:
| | In General, Legondary writes:
| | Hi,
Quick question to this group...
Apparently there are some changes to the EU VAT legislation with regards to E-commerce
or web shops.
From the 1st of July, when you operate an e-commerce business with generated
income of over 10.000€, you will need to charge the VAT rate of the country of
which you are selling to.
Eg. I sell over 10K€ per year. If I sell (based in Belgium) to France, I will
need to apply the French VAT rate on my order instead of the Belgian VAT rate.
Selling platforms like E-bay, Amazon, Bol.com and therefor in my opinion, BL
as well, will need to enable this way of invoicing.
Do any of you guys or girls know more about this?
I am including a link, if this is allowed?
https://business.trustedshops.nl/blog/btw-in-e-commerce
https://www.emerce.nl/achtergrond/nieuwe-btwregels-ecommerce-actiepunten-ondernemers
Kind regards,
Nick
|
Here is the official EU website link:
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/vat-e-commerce_en
The existing thresholds for distance sales of goods within the EU will be
abolished and replaced by a new EU-wide threshold of EUR 10 000. Below this EUR
10 000 threshold, the supplies of TBE (telecommunications, broadcasting and electronic)
services and distance sales of goods within the EU may remain subject to VAT
in the Member State where the taxable person is established.
The best would be if BL handles it like the orders to UK but with accepting offsite
payment methods too, like IBAN.
|
Hmm good point, I hadn't considered the change of the marketplaces becoming
responsible for VAT. So I guess BL will pay the appropriate VAT amount to the
authorities, and then charge the seller that VAT amount alongside their monthly
fees, something like that? (as separate statements: fees are a business cost,
tax is not). And of course issue a document as proof that VAT has been paid,
like they do now for UK.
I have no idea how to make invoices with "someone else paid my VAT" - is it going
to be an 'export' to California? Anyway, how to handle that is probably
not Bricklink's responsibility, as long as they provide that proof.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | paulvdb | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 07:56 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 50 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Teup writes:
| | Hmm good point, I hadn't considered the change of the marketplaces becoming
responsible for VAT. So I guess BL will pay the appropriate VAT amount to the
authorities, and then charge the seller that VAT amount alongside their monthly
fees, something like that? (as separate statements: fees are a business cost,
tax is not). And of course issue a document as proof that VAT has been paid,
like they do now for UK.
I have no idea how to make invoices with "someone else paid my VAT" - is it going
to be an 'export' to California? Anyway, how to handle that is probably
not Bricklink's responsibility, as long as they provide that proof.
|
The marketplace will only collect VAT for imports into the EU, the same way they
already do for UK VAT and US sales tax. You will still collect VAT for all your
sales to buyers in other EU countries and will report the VAT on those sales
to your own country's tax authority. Your country's tax authority will
then report and pay the VAT to the tax authorities of your buyers' countries.
In order to make this work BL will have to make changes to their VAT system so
that sellers have the option to choose if they will charge the buyer's country's
VAT rate (this will be mandatory if you sell more than 10000 EUR to other EU
countries) or your own country's VAT rate (this will be optional if you sell
less than 10000 EUR to other EU countries). And just to make it clear, it will
of course be up to the seller to make sure that they choose the correct option.
BL won't know if you sell more than 10000 EUR to other EU countries if you
also sell on other marketplaces and/or your own website.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Legondary | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 08:43 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, paulvdb writes:
| | In General, Teup writes:
| | Hmm good point, I hadn't considered the change of the marketplaces becoming
responsible for VAT. So I guess BL will pay the appropriate VAT amount to the
authorities, and then charge the seller that VAT amount alongside their monthly
fees, something like that? (as separate statements: fees are a business cost,
tax is not). And of course issue a document as proof that VAT has been paid,
like they do now for UK.
I have no idea how to make invoices with "someone else paid my VAT" - is it going
to be an 'export' to California? Anyway, how to handle that is probably
not Bricklink's responsibility, as long as they provide that proof.
|
The marketplace will only collect VAT for imports into the EU, the same way they
already do for UK VAT and US sales tax. You will still collect VAT for all your
sales to buyers in other EU countries and will report the VAT on those sales
to your own country's tax authority. Your country's tax authority will
then report and pay the VAT to the tax authorities of your buyers' countries.
In order to make this work BL will have to make changes to their VAT system so
that sellers have the option to choose if they will charge the buyer's country's
VAT rate (this will be mandatory if you sell more than 10000 EUR to other EU
countries) or your own country's VAT rate (this will be optional if you sell
less than 10000 EUR to other EU countries). And just to make it clear, it will
of course be up to the seller to make sure that they choose the correct option.
BL won't know if you sell more than 10000 EUR to other EU countries if you
also sell on other marketplaces and/or your own website.
|
Hi Paul, I totally agree! It should be the seller's responsibility to choose
between both options. If BL would be able to enable the choice between sellers
VAT rate or buyer (based on country they live in) VAT rate, that would be a suitable
solution! Where should we address this? Kind regards, Nick
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 09:31 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, paulvdb writes:
| | In General, Teup writes:
| | Hmm good point, I hadn't considered the change of the marketplaces becoming
responsible for VAT. So I guess BL will pay the appropriate VAT amount to the
authorities, and then charge the seller that VAT amount alongside their monthly
fees, something like that? (as separate statements: fees are a business cost,
tax is not). And of course issue a document as proof that VAT has been paid,
like they do now for UK.
I have no idea how to make invoices with "someone else paid my VAT" - is it going
to be an 'export' to California? Anyway, how to handle that is probably
not Bricklink's responsibility, as long as they provide that proof.
|
The marketplace will only collect VAT for imports into the EU, the same way they
already do for UK VAT and US sales tax. You will still collect VAT for all your
sales to buyers in other EU countries and will report the VAT on those sales
to your own country's tax authority. Your country's tax authority will
then report and pay the VAT to the tax authorities of your buyers' countries.
In order to make this work BL will have to make changes to their VAT system so
that sellers have the option to choose if they will charge the buyer's country's
VAT rate (this will be mandatory if you sell more than 10000 EUR to other EU
countries) or your own country's VAT rate (this will be optional if you sell
less than 10000 EUR to other EU countries). And just to make it clear, it will
of course be up to the seller to make sure that they choose the correct option.
BL won't know if you sell more than 10000 EUR to other EU countries if you
also sell on other marketplaces and/or your own website.
|
My bad - I thought it was about all imports including with the EU. Well, in that
case all that Bricklink has to do is just show buyers the price including either
the fixed VAT percentage, or the percentage of the country of the buyer in case
the seller has switched on that option. Not much work for Bricklink, mostly extra
work for the sellers to do their administration correctly.
|
|
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| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 20:24 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Legondary writes:
| | […]
From the 1st of July, when you operate an e-commerce business with generated
income of over 10.000€, you will need to charge the VAT rate of the country of
which you are selling to.
Eg. I sell over 10K€ per year. If I sell (based in Belgium) to France, I will
need to apply the French VAT rate on my order instead of the Belgian VAT rate.
|
BTW, it’s if you sell 10k€ per year PER COUNTRY, not your total income.
So it’s if you sold over 10k€ last year to country X that you need to apply country
X’s VAT rate to your country X buyers now.
Before, you needed to check the threshold for every country and necessarily register
IN EACH COUNTRY you made more than THIS COUNTRY’s threshold.
Now, the threshold is the same for every country, and you may use a “One-Shop-Stop”
internet website to fill all your paperwork (and not have to register in each
country).
So, as I understand it, that only works for the countries in which you sell over
10k€, not the others. In the others, you still charge your local VAT.
E.g., you’re French, you make 100.000€ a year, you’re registered for VAT in France.
You made 15.000€ in Belgium and 9.000€ in Germany last year.
— Before, you didn’t have to register in Belgium or Germany, everybody paid French
VAT.
— Now, you’ll have to use the Belgian VAT rate for your Belgian buyers but you’ll
still use French VAT for French and German buyers. And you can either register
for VAT in Belgium or use the website to declare the Belgian VAT. Your sales
in Germany are treated as before.
What’s funny is if you’re below your country’s threshold (85,600€ in France)
but above 10k€ in one other EU country….
| | Selling platforms like E-bay, Amazon, Bol.com and therefor in my opinion, BL
as well, will need to enable this way of invoicing.
|
Yeah, BL will need to allow sellers to say in which EU countries they need to
apply the buyer’s VAT rate and not the seller’s VAT rate. Or allow sellers to
change the VAT rate on the invoices manually (but if you make more than 10k€
in one country, you certainly have many orders there, so that could be tedious).
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | paulvdb | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 20:43 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, SylvainLS writes:
| | BTW, it’s if you sell 10k€ per year PER COUNTRY, not your total income.
So it’s if you sold over 10k€ last year to country X that you need to apply country
X’s VAT rate to your country X buyers now.
|
It is my understanding that it is 10000 EUR to all EU countries added together
(except your own country). So if a Dutch sellet sold for example 9000 EUR to
Germany and 2000 EUR to Belgium they'd have to charge the buyer's country's
VAT rate on all their sales in the EU.
The 10000 EUR threshold is based on sales value excluding VAT and excluding intra-community
supplies (sales at 0% VAT to VAT-registered businesses in other EU countries).
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 1, 2021 21:25 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, paulvdb writes:
| | In General, SylvainLS writes:
| | BTW, it’s if you sell 10k€ per year PER COUNTRY, not your total income.
So it’s if you sold over 10k€ last year to country X that you need to apply country
X’s VAT rate to your country X buyers now.
|
It is my understanding that it is 10000 EUR to all EU countries added together
(except your own country). So if a Dutch sellet sold for example 9000 EUR to
Germany and 2000 EUR to Belgium they'd have to charge the buyer's country's
VAT rate on all their sales in the EU.
The 10000 EUR threshold is based on sales value excluding VAT and excluding intra-community
supplies (sales at 0% VAT to VAT-registered businesses in other EU countries).
|
My, I found less simplified / less confusing sites, and you’re right. That’s
a ginormous change!
They went from a 35k€ to 100k€ threshold per country to a 10k€ global threshold.
That means the per-country threshold actually went down to 1€.
That also means there’s even more risks of being forced to collect VAT for other
EU countries while you still don’t have to in your own country. Madness.
On the other hand, that simplifies BL’s work: always apply buyer’s rate or always
apply seller’s rate.
Even more happy not to be a real seller 
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 2, 2021 04:46 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 50 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, SylvainLS writes:
| | That also means there’s even more risks of being forced to collect VAT for other
EU countries while you still don’t have to in your own country. Madness.
|
Haha, that's an interesting point actually. I wonder which takes prevalence
here: The fact you don't need to charge VAT, or the fact that you should
use the percentage of the country of the buyer. I would guess the first, but
it can totally turn out to be one of those oversights in the system..
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 2, 2021 11:50 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Teup writes:
| | In General, SylvainLS writes:
| | That also means there’s even more risks of being forced to collect VAT for other
EU countries while you still don’t have to in your own country. Madness.
|
Haha, that's an interesting point actually. I wonder which takes prevalence
here: The fact you don't need to charge VAT, or the fact that you should
use the percentage of the country of the buyer. I would guess the first, but
it can totally turn out to be one of those oversights in the system..
|
Well, in the old scheme, the thresholds were high enough that nobody was in the
situation of not being registered at home and having to register abroad.
With a threshold of €85,800 in France, €10,000 sold in EU is 11.65%. I believe
that’s low, no?
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 2, 2021 14:12 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, SylvainLS writes:
| | In General, Teup writes:
| | In General, SylvainLS writes:
| | That also means there’s even more risks of being forced to collect VAT for other
EU countries while you still don’t have to in your own country. Madness.
|
Haha, that's an interesting point actually. I wonder which takes prevalence
here: The fact you don't need to charge VAT, or the fact that you should
use the percentage of the country of the buyer. I would guess the first, but
it can totally turn out to be one of those oversights in the system..
|
Well, in the old scheme, the thresholds were high enough that nobody was in the
situation of not being registered at home and having to register abroad.
With a threshold of €85,800 in France, €10,000 sold in EU is 11.65%. I believe
that’s low, no?
|
Yep, but the question is which rule will apply first. Is this new rule of exact
percentages for everybody, and the VAT exemption applying only domestically,
or do you first need to qualify as a VAT registered business in the first place,
and THEN you have to look at what exact percentages to levy? I am assuming the
latter - I think the rule is about making the percentages more precise rather
than making sellers be obligated to pay VAT more often. But yes, if it turns
out it's the other way around, it's going to be an odd side effect.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 2, 2021 14:58 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Teup writes:
| | […]
Yep, but the question is which rule will apply first. Is this new rule of exact
percentages for everybody, and the VAT exemption applying only domestically,
or do you first need to qualify as a VAT registered business in the first place,
and THEN you have to look at what exact percentages to levy? I am assuming the
latter - I think the rule is about making the percentages more precise rather
than making sellers be obligated to pay VAT more often. But yes, if it turns
out it's the other way around, it's going to be an odd side effect.
|
I eventually found this:
“Quelles entreprises sont concernées ?
Le guichet unique de TVA concerne tous les assujettis, quel que soit leur régime
d’imposition à la TVA : […]”
“Which businesses are concerned?
The VAT one-stop-shop concerns all taxable persons, regardless of their VAT regime”
https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/professionnel/suis-je-concerne-0
So one’d need to be “assujettis” (subjected / taxable) first (if you don’t apply
VAT, you’re “non assujettis”). Phew!
Why can’t the people who write these explanation articles really explain things?
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | kaat | | Posted: | Jun 2, 2021 17:34 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, SylvainLS writes:
| | In General, Teup writes:
| | […]
Yep, but the question is which rule will apply first. Is this new rule of exact
percentages for everybody, and the VAT exemption applying only domestically,
or do you first need to qualify as a VAT registered business in the first place,
and THEN you have to look at what exact percentages to levy? I am assuming the
latter - I think the rule is about making the percentages more precise rather
than making sellers be obligated to pay VAT more often. But yes, if it turns
out it's the other way around, it's going to be an odd side effect.
|
I eventually found this:
“Quelles entreprises sont concernées ?
Le guichet unique de TVA concerne tous les assujettis, quel que soit leur régime
d’imposition à la TVA : […]”
“Which businesses are concerned?
The VAT one-stop-shop concerns all taxable persons, regardless of their VAT regime”
https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/professionnel/suis-je-concerne-0
So one’d need to be “assujettis” (subjected / taxable) first (if you don’t apply
VAT, you’re “non assujettis”). Phew!
Why can’t the people who write these explanation articles really explain things?
|
Haha it's like a puzzle
On the site of the dutch chamber of commerce, I found that when you do not use
VAT (In NL the limit is 20K) but you do have 10K+ sales to EU consumers, you
will then need to use the tax system anyway and so the 20K limit is gone. Source
(in dutch) https://www.kvk.nl/advies-en-informatie/internationaal-ondernemen/e-commerce/btw-regels-voor-e-commerce-in-de-eu/
In this case, it's not possible to be liable for EU VAT and exempt for domestic
VAT. The reverse is possible, in case you stay below the 10K EU limit. But EU
VAT means also domestic VAT.
Quote:
When you make use of the small business scheme (KOR), you have an annual turnover
of less than 20,000 euros. By participating in the KOR you are exempt from VAT.
If you exceed the threshold of 10,000 euros in turnover in EU Member States other
than the Netherlands with your webshop, you become liable for VAT in the relevant
EU Member States. At that time, the VAT rules of the EU member state of your
consumer apply. The Dutch KOR will then no longer apply.
|
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 2, 2021 18:16 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, kaat writes:
| | […]
| | Why can’t the people who write these explanation articles really explain things?
|
Haha it's like a puzzle
On the site of the dutch chamber of commerce, I found that when you do not use
VAT (In NL the limit is 20K) but you do have 10K+ sales to EU consumers, you
will then need to use the tax system anyway and so the 20K limit is gone. Source
(in dutch) https://www.kvk.nl/advies-en-informatie/internationaal-ondernemen/e-commerce/btw-regels-voor-e-commerce-in-de-eu/
In this case, it's not possible to be liable for EU VAT and exempt for domestic
VAT. The reverse is possible, in case you stay below the 10K EU limit. But EU
VAT means also domestic VAT.
Quote:
When you make use of the small business scheme (KOR), you have an annual turnover
of less than 20,000 euros. By participating in the KOR you are exempt from VAT.
If you exceed the threshold of 10,000 euros in turnover in EU Member States other
than the Netherlands with your webshop, you become liable for VAT in the relevant
EU Member States. At that time, the VAT rules of the EU member state of your
consumer apply. The Dutch KOR will then no longer apply.
|
Dang. “Puzzle” is too kind a word!
I dug a bit more:
– in France, you need a French VAT number to register to the OSS,
— when they talk about the threshold for registration, they don’t say anything
about the new 10k€ threshold for EU sales, it’s still “just” 82,800€ for commercial
activities.
At the same time, everybody says that if you’re above the threshold, you are
liable for VAT. So you need to register to the OSS¹ but, for that, you need
to be registered domestically.
Catch 22!
(¹ Or in each EU country, but let’s keep it simple )
And all that needs to be done before July 1st / before your first non-domestic
sale.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | Jun 2, 2021 16:00 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, SylvainLS writes:
| | In General, paulvdb writes:
| | In General, SylvainLS writes:
| | BTW, it’s if you sell 10k€ per year PER COUNTRY, not your total income.
So it’s if you sold over 10k€ last year to country X that you need to apply country
X’s VAT rate to your country X buyers now.
|
It is my understanding that it is 10000 EUR to all EU countries added together
(except your own country). So if a Dutch sellet sold for example 9000 EUR to
Germany and 2000 EUR to Belgium they'd have to charge the buyer's country's
VAT rate on all their sales in the EU.
The 10000 EUR threshold is based on sales value excluding VAT and excluding intra-community
supplies (sales at 0% VAT to VAT-registered businesses in other EU countries).
|
My, I found less simplified / less confusing sites, and you’re right. That’s
a ginormous change!
They went from a 35k€ to 100k€ threshold per country to a 10k€ global threshold.
That means the per-country threshold actually went down to 1€.
That also means there’s even more risks of being forced to collect VAT for other
EU countries while you still don’t have to in your own country. Madness.
On the other hand, that simplifies BL’s work: always apply buyer’s rate or always
apply seller’s rate.
|
So this rates:
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/vat-rates_en
Belgium 21
Bulgaria 20
Czech Republic 21
Denmark 25
Germany 19
Estonia 20
Ireland 23
Greece 24
Spain 21
France 20
Croatia 25
Italy 22
Cyprus 19
Latvia 21
Lithuania 21
Luxembourg 17
Hungary 27
Malta 18
Netherlands 21
Austria 20
Poland 23
Portugal 23
Romania 19
Slovenia 22
Slovakia 20
Finland 24
Sweden 25
But which for North Ireland? UK 20% or Seller %?
United Kingdom 20
And what about Monaco?
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/territorial-status-eu-countries-certain-territories_en
| |
Even more happy not to be a real seller
|
|
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | Jun 3, 2021 04:37 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 58 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, kaat writes:
Thanks!
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | BunteSteinewelt | | Posted: | Jun 16, 2021 02:18 | | Subject: | Re: New OSS : EU VAT changes from 1st of July | | Viewed: | 64 times | | Topic: | General | |
|
| In General, Stellar writes:
| | In General, kaat writes:
Thanks!
|
Hi,
as the 1st of July is comming closer, I want to ask if there are any news about
this?
Will Bricklink provide any tools to support EU-VAT-Sellers on that matter?
Thank you very much!
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Belgium
Netherlands, Utrecht
France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Spain, Comunidad Valenciana
Germany, Niedersachsen