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| | | Author: | BLUSER_302814  | | Posted: | Oct 18, 2013 16:42 | | Subject: | Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 362 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | | Status: | Open | | Vote: | [Yes|No] | |
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| It'd be nice if these could be culled out of the system in some manner.
Either with a specific, boldened "LL" (lot limit) tag/icon on stores that
use them and a means of excluding those stores from searches.
Even if lot limits are allowed they are a form of price fixing/scamming
that can be utilized to directly manipulate price patterns and selling trends
in searches. I'm not saying that every lot limit store does this, but the
potential to abuse the form is simply way, way too high to be so blatantly ignored.
Consider the following...I list actual sets in my store, say each set costs $50.
Now, I then go and list several dozen individual PARTS for prices that are,
say, HALF the average and calculate it out so that no combination of available
parts will actually be available with my set lot limits (meaning basically you
can only buy the sets, the parts will be effectively off limits).
At that point one would only need to use (abuse) the system's auto e-mail
price-watch system to instantly inform the scam artist every time they get a
"hit"...that is, a newbie seller, who sets their prices based on what they see
at first glance in searches.
The lot limit scammer is then able to rack up choice items at, essentially, half
price (or even better), artificially deflates the value of certain choice items
for however long they deem fit, basically screws the entire LEGO community, newbie
sellers and legitimate long time sellers (not to mention buyers).
Again, not saying that all those who use lot limits are doing this (most are
probably only doing it for slight gains/sales advantages), but the potential
for high level, systemic and rampant abuse most certainly exists.
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| | | | | Author: | Brickwilbo | | Posted: | Oct 18, 2013 16:46 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 75 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| Just move on to the next store.
In Suggestions, quipcake writes:
| | It'd be nice if these could be culled out of the system in some manner.
Either with a specific, boldened "LL" (lot limit) tag/icon on stores that
use them and a means of excluding those stores from searches.
Even if lot limits are allowed they are a form of price fixing/scamming
that can be utilized to directly manipulate price patterns and selling trends
in searches. I'm not saying that every lot limit store does this, but the
potential to abuse the form is simply way, way too high to be so blatantly ignored.
Consider the following...I list actual sets in my store, say each set costs $50.
Now, I then go and list several dozen individual PARTS for prices that are,
say, HALF the average and calculate it out so that no combination of available
parts will actually be available with my set lot limits (meaning basically you
can only buy the sets, the parts will be effectively off limits).
At that point one would only need to use (abuse) the system's auto e-mail
price-watch system to instantly inform the scam artist every time they get a
"hit"...that is, a newbie seller, who sets their prices based on what they see
at first glance in searches.
The lot limit scammer is then able to rack up choice items at, essentially, half
price (or even better), artificially deflates the value of certain choice items
for however long they deem fit, basically screws the entire LEGO community, newbie
sellers and legitimate long time sellers (not to mention buyers).
Again, not saying that all those who use lot limits are doing this (most are
probably only doing it for slight gains/sales advantages), but the potential
for high level, systemic and rampant abuse most certainly exists.
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| | | | | Author: | MassBricks | | Posted: | Oct 18, 2013 17:03 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 100 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, quipcake writes:
| | It'd be nice if these could be culled out of the system in some manner.
Either with a specific, boldened "LL" (lot limit) tag/icon on stores that
use them and a means of excluding those stores from searches.
Even if lot limits are allowed they are a form of price fixing/scamming
that can be utilized to directly manipulate price patterns and selling trends
in searches. I'm not saying that every lot limit store does this, but the
potential to abuse the form is simply way, way too high to be so blatantly ignored.
Consider the following...I list actual sets in my store, say each set costs $50.
Now, I then go and list several dozen individual PARTS for prices that are,
say, HALF the average and calculate it out so that no combination of available
parts will actually be available with my set lot limits (meaning basically you
can only buy the sets, the parts will be effectively off limits).
At that point one would only need to use (abuse) the system's auto e-mail
price-watch system to instantly inform the scam artist every time they get a
"hit"...that is, a newbie seller, who sets their prices based on what they see
at first glance in searches.
The lot limit scammer is then able to rack up choice items at, essentially, half
price (or even better), artificially deflates the value of certain choice items
for however long they deem fit, basically screws the entire LEGO community, newbie
sellers and legitimate long time sellers (not to mention buyers).
Again, not saying that all those who use lot limits are doing this (most are
probably only doing it for slight gains/sales advantages), but the potential
for high level, systemic and rampant abuse most certainly exists.
|
If I understand your post, your complaint has nothing to do with lot limits.
Someone could also open a store with all the parts they want at low prices, and
then set a minimum buy higher than the total value of their inventory. Why bother
selling sets at all?
Lot limits are useful as a means of reducing time on packing orders, so as to
provide competitive prices. I don't use them, but I have no problem with
stores that do.
For instance, if I have a bulk lot that cost me half a cent a piece, I can sell
you a hundred pieces for a penny each; however, if I had a hundred such lots,
there is no way I could sell you one piece from each lot for only a penny, since
it would take way too long to pack it all. Now instead of placing bulk quantities
on every item in the store, a seller can have an overall limit. "Alright, I sell
you some single parts at low cost, as long as you buy more of other parts to
pay for my time."
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| | | | | | | Author: | BLUSER_302814 | | Posted: | Oct 18, 2013 18:59 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 103 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| Oh so then you agree with me. 
Yes, "lot limits" should definitely be the same as "minimum buys" clearly labeled
and clearly shown in searches, just as MassBricks implied.
In Suggestions, MassBricks writes:
| | If I understand your post, your complaint has nothing to do with lot limits.
Someone could also open a store with all the parts they want at low prices, and
then set a minimum buy higher than the total value of their inventory. Why bother
selling sets at all?
Lot limits are useful as a means of reducing time on packing orders, so as to
provide competitive prices. I don't use them, but I have no problem with
stores that do.
For instance, if I have a bulk lot that cost me half a cent a piece, I can sell
you a hundred pieces for a penny each; however, if I had a hundred such lots,
there is no way I could sell you one piece from each lot for only a penny, since
it would take way too long to pack it all. Now instead of placing bulk quantities
on every item in the store, a seller can have an overall limit. "Alright, I sell
you some single parts at low cost, as long as you buy more of other parts to
pay for my time."
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | pikachu3 | | Posted: | Oct 18, 2013 21:01 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 57 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, quipcake writes:
| | Oh so then you agree with me.
Yes, "lot limits" should definitely be the same as "minimum buys" clearly labeled
and clearly shown in searches, just as MassBricks implied.
|
The first thing I do upon seeing that any store has the parts I want is check
its splash page and terms. If they have objectionable fees, then I'm out.
It's as simple as that. I don't mind it, just like they don't mind
losing what they consider to be an unprofitable sale. Lot fees can be complex
and varied; I wouldn't want all that on the search screen, there's enough
info there already. That's what the store terms page is for.
Your scenario is not a scam; their prices are perfectly visible. They simply
wouldn't get many orders, meaning they're only hurting themselves. And
that's their choice.
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| | | | | Author: | eileenkeeney | | Posted: | Oct 18, 2013 21:11 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 63 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| Another way to help effect the average and minimum prices without actually having
to sell at the low prices.
I like it.
I hadn't thought of this one.
I am always trying to think of ways I can manipulate prices, but have no desire
to deal with all of the overhead of actually selling, such as having to ship
stuff to people.
Seriously,
I understand why stores have lot limits, in that each lot has a labor cost associated
with it.
But I see where it can be misused (as can super lots).
Really I want to figure out how to be first to list new parts so I can help set
the price they will sell for.
I want to be able to do this without breaking any rules, and without actually
having to sell the parts unless the sale yields me a LOT of profit.
A lot of significantly overpriced inventory, for parts I have no desire to ever
buy (meaning I don't care if I push prices up), along with a high minimum,
might work here.
Then when I add in the new parts, at very low prices, no one will actually buy
them, unless they buy a lot of overpriced parts with them.
This is so much easier than lot limits, but also more obvious.
I need a scheme that is not obvious.
In Suggestions, quipcake writes:
| | It'd be nice if these could be culled out of the system in some manner.
Either with a specific, boldened "LL" (lot limit) tag/icon on stores that
use them and a means of excluding those stores from searches.
Even if lot limits are allowed they are a form of price fixing/scamming
that can be utilized to directly manipulate price patterns and selling trends
in searches. I'm not saying that every lot limit store does this, but the
potential to abuse the form is simply way, way too high to be so blatantly ignored.
Consider the following...I list actual sets in my store, say each set costs $50.
Now, I then go and list several dozen individual PARTS for prices that are,
say, HALF the average and calculate it out so that no combination of available
parts will actually be available with my set lot limits (meaning basically you
can only buy the sets, the parts will be effectively off limits).
At that point one would only need to use (abuse) the system's auto e-mail
price-watch system to instantly inform the scam artist every time they get a
"hit"...that is, a newbie seller, who sets their prices based on what they see
at first glance in searches.
The lot limit scammer is then able to rack up choice items at, essentially, half
price (or even better), artificially deflates the value of certain choice items
for however long they deem fit, basically screws the entire LEGO community, newbie
sellers and legitimate long time sellers (not to mention buyers).
Again, not saying that all those who use lot limits are doing this (most are
probably only doing it for slight gains/sales advantages), but the potential
for high level, systemic and rampant abuse most certainly exists.
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| | | | | | | Author: | FigBits | | Posted: | Oct 18, 2013 23:42 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 92 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, eileenkeeney writes:
| | Really I want to figure out how to be first to list new parts so I can help set
the price they will sell for.
I want to be able to do this without breaking any rules, and without actually
having to sell the parts unless the sale yields me a LOT of profit.
A lot of significantly overpriced inventory, for parts I have no desire to ever
buy (meaning I don't care if I push prices up), along with a high minimum,
might work here.
Then when I add in the new parts, at very low prices, no one will actually buy
them, unless they buy a lot of overpriced parts with them.
This is so much easier than lot limits, but also more obvious.
I need a scheme that is not obvious.
|
Your ultimate goal (to set the price that a part will sell for) won't be
achieved, except maybe in the very short term. Prices will move toward what the
market will bear. If you try to drive down the price, all you will do is accelerate
the sales of those other low-priced listings. Other items for sale at higher
prices will then be the only ones remaining. Plus, some sellers will notice the
trend, and deliberately price higher, to find out where the maximum return is.
And finally, part of the selling price is determined by the acquisition price.
If the part-out value on a new set is lower than the price of the set, then nobody
will be parting it out. Very low supply on high-demand parts will drive up the
price quickly.
--
Marc.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | BLUSER_302814 | | Posted: | Oct 19, 2013 07:29 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 61 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| But the person whose doing the fixing generally profits the most since they can
specifically abuse "wanted lists" in order to be instantly notified. Even further,
BrickLink has no form of CAPTCHA or any sort of bot or augmented browsing deterrents
which further magnifies the potential problem. Basically one could easily setup
a bot to instantly buy when a new/inexperienced user winds up tricked by the
scam.
To a certain extent that's actually already a pretty blatant problem, primarily
with countries like the Netherlands which have insane shipping costs. The sellers
tend to price their goods at far below the average to compensate for it, so even
though the overall end cost is similar they basically get "first ranking" so
to speak in the catalog.
It's also possible to abuse the system in that regard, similar to SEO scamming/tricks
in order to essentially get free/better advertising. A person who specialized
in just selling say full sets can basically list several hundred parts and by
setting the prices very, very low and making use of very high LL (that generally
only work with buying sets) basically countless thousands of people will be continually
tricked into going to the person's store with hundreds of items that are,
essentially, unbuyable (realistically) and at the very least seeing the name
of their shop and the terms. Even if they're only getting a .01% turn around,
well, out of 10,000 potential tricked customers that's 100 customers they
didn't have before by directly utilizing pretty unethical business practices.
At the very least I think it would be good to have some kind of easy to read
disclaimer/instruction message/warning for new site users giving them a general
"heads up" about the catalog/prices and some "common sense" tips...well, "common"
for those that have been around on the site long enough to become "street wise"
or "catalog wise" so to speak.
| | Your ultimate goal (to set the price that a part will sell for) won't be
achieved, except maybe in the very short term. Prices will move toward what the
market will bear. If you try to drive down the price, all you will do is accelerate
the sales of those other low-priced listings. Other items for sale at higher
prices will then be the only ones remaining. Plus, some sellers will notice the
trend, and deliberately price higher, to find out where the maximum return is.
And finally, part of the selling price is determined by the acquisition price.
If the part-out value on a new set is lower than the price of the set, then nobody
will be parting it out. Very low supply on high-demand parts will drive up the
price quickly.
--
Marc.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Brickwilbo | | Posted: | Oct 19, 2013 08:04 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, quipcake writes:
| | But the person whose doing the fixing generally profits the most since they can
specifically abuse "wanted lists" in order to be instantly notified. Even further,
BrickLink has no form of CAPTCHA or any sort of bot or augmented browsing deterrents
which further magnifies the potential problem. Basically one could easily setup
a bot to instantly buy when a new/inexperienced user winds up tricked by the
scam.
To a certain extent that's actually already a pretty blatant problem, primarily
with countries like the Netherlands which have insane shipping costs.
|
Your statement is wrong, with the US rates starting at $6.55, it's cheaper
to ship 50 gram Lego from The Netherlands to the US than from the US to The Netherlands.
| | The sellers
tend to price their goods at far below the average to compensate for it, so even
though the overall end cost is similar they basically get "first ranking" so
to speak in the catalog.
It's also possible to abuse the system in that regard, similar to SEO scamming/tricks
in order to essentially get free/better advertising. A person who specialized
in just selling say full sets can basically list several hundred parts and by
setting the prices very, very low and making use of very high LL (that generally
only work with buying sets) basically countless thousands of people will be continually
tricked into going to the person's store with hundreds of items that are,
essentially, unbuyable (realistically) and at the very least seeing the name
of their shop and the terms. Even if they're only getting a .01% turn around,
well, out of 10,000 potential tricked customers that's 100 customers they
didn't have before by directly utilizing pretty unethical business practices.
At the very least I think it would be good to have some kind of easy to read
disclaimer/instruction message/warning for new site users giving them a general
"heads up" about the catalog/prices and some "common sense" tips...well, "common"
for those that have been around on the site long enough to become "street wise"
or "catalog wise" so to speak.
| | Your ultimate goal (to set the price that a part will sell for) won't be
achieved, except maybe in the very short term. Prices will move toward what the
market will bear. If you try to drive down the price, all you will do is accelerate
the sales of those other low-priced listings. Other items for sale at higher
prices will then be the only ones remaining. Plus, some sellers will notice the
trend, and deliberately price higher, to find out where the maximum return is.
And finally, part of the selling price is determined by the acquisition price.
If the part-out value on a new set is lower than the price of the set, then nobody
will be parting it out. Very low supply on high-demand parts will drive up the
price quickly.
--
Marc.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | WILYKAT | | Posted: | Oct 19, 2013 08:15 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 59 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, quipcake writes:
| | But the person whose doing the fixing generally profits the most since they can
specifically abuse "wanted lists" in order to be instantly notified. Even further,
BrickLink has no form of CAPTCHA or any sort of bot or augmented browsing deterrents
which further magnifies the potential problem. Basically one could easily setup
a bot to instantly buy when a new/inexperienced user winds up tricked by the
scam.
|
Sucks for them if a bot can't read -_- I still prefer that a live person
inspect the store before committing to buy or blacklisting the store.
| | To a certain extent that's actually already a pretty blatant problem, primarily
with countries like the Netherlands which have insane shipping costs. The sellers
tend to price their goods at far below the average to compensate for it, so even
though the overall end cost is similar they basically get "first ranking" so
to speak in the catalog.
|
Some buyers do have the option of limiting international sellers to avoid shipping
costs. If the seller and buyer are in the same country and the seller tries
exorbitant shipping for no reason, the buyer can yell and shame the seller.
| | It's also possible to abuse the system in that regard, similar to SEO scamming/tricks
in order to essentially get free/better advertising. A person who specialized
in just selling say full sets can basically list several hundred parts and by
setting the prices very, very low and making use of very high LL (that generally
only work with buying sets) basically countless thousands of people will be continually
tricked into going to the person's store with hundreds of items that are,
essentially, unbuyable (realistically) and at the very least seeing the name
of their shop and the terms. Even if they're only getting a .01% turn around,
well, out of 10,000 potential tricked customers that's 100 customers they
didn't have before by directly utilizing pretty unethical business practices.
|
Blacklist offending store if they get your attention and you find out you can't
get it or if you would have to pay too much.
| | At the very least I think it would be good to have some kind of easy to read
disclaimer/instruction message/warning for new site users giving them a general
"heads up" about the catalog/prices and some "common sense" tips...well, "common"
for those that have been around on the site long enough to become "street wise"
or "catalog wise" so to speak.
| | Your ultimate goal (to set the price that a part will sell for) won't be
achieved, except maybe in the very short term. Prices will move toward what the
market will bear. If you try to drive down the price, all you will do is accelerate
the sales of those other low-priced listings. Other items for sale at higher
prices will then be the only ones remaining. Plus, some sellers will notice the
trend, and deliberately price higher, to find out where the maximum return is.
And finally, part of the selling price is determined by the acquisition price.
If the part-out value on a new set is lower than the price of the set, then nobody
will be parting it out. Very low supply on high-demand parts will drive up the
price quickly.
--
Marc.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | FigBits | | Posted: | Oct 19, 2013 12:44 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, quipcake writes:
| | ...Even if they're only getting a .01% turn around,
well, out of 10,000 potential tricked customers that's 100 customers they
didn't have before by directly utilizing pretty unethical business practices.
|
No. 0.01% of 10000 is 1, not 100.
And you won't get 10000 store visits by listing something at a low price.
--
Marc.
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| | | | | | | Author: | BLUSER_302814 | | Posted: | Oct 19, 2013 07:39 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| I think it's less about labor personally and more about laziness/disorganization.
If you just pile all your inventory into a big bag all jumbled together...well
yeah, it's going to take you forever to fill out any large order. But if
you've got your inventory properly sorted/organized...then no, large orders,
small orders, shouldn't really be an issue at all.
In Suggestions, eileenkeeney writes:
| | Seriously,
I understand why stores have lot limits, in that each lot has a labor cost associated
with it.
But I see where it can be misused (as can super lots).
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| | | | | Author: | WILYKAT | | Posted: | Oct 18, 2013 22:03 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 82 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Trying to understand this, assume I have only 2 things in my store. A single
in rare medium blue, new, priced at only $5 (price guide shows one new sold at
28, one current at 35) and a
priced at $50 and I set the minimum to oh say, $25 per lot average, then the
only way to buy the blue hand cheap is to buy the set priced at 4x retail price.
I can see how it's sneaky but it's easy to blacklist the store that has
unreasonable term and move on.
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| | | | | Author: | bb314137 | | Posted: | Oct 19, 2013 12:52 | | Subject: | Re: Allowed Lot Limit Scam Tactics | | Viewed: | 59 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, quipcake writes:
| | It'd be nice if these could be culled out of the system in some manner.
Either with a specific, boldened "LL" (lot limit) tag/icon on stores that
use them and a means of excluding those stores from searches.
Even if lot limits are allowed they are a form of price fixing/scamming
that can be utilized to directly manipulate price patterns and selling trends
in searches. I'm not saying that every lot limit store does this, but the
potential to abuse the form is simply way, way too high to be so blatantly ignored.
Consider the following...I list actual sets in my store, say each set costs $50.
Now, I then go and list several dozen individual PARTS for prices that are,
say, HALF the average and calculate it out so that no combination of available
parts will actually be available with my set lot limits (meaning basically you
can only buy the sets, the parts will be effectively off limits).
At that point one would only need to use (abuse) the system's auto e-mail
price-watch system to instantly inform the scam artist every time they get a
"hit"...that is, a newbie seller, who sets their prices based on what they see
at first glance in searches.
The lot limit scammer is then able to rack up choice items at, essentially, half
price (or even better), artificially deflates the value of certain choice items
for however long they deem fit, basically screws the entire LEGO community, newbie
sellers and legitimate long time sellers (not to mention buyers).
Again, not saying that all those who use lot limits are doing this (most are
probably only doing it for slight gains/sales advantages), but the potential
for high level, systemic and rampant abuse most certainly exists.
|
Never thought about this... I'm surprised what some people are up to!
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USA, Washington
Netherlands, Gelderland
Canada, Ontario
Spain, Andalucia Ceuta i Melilla