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| | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh  | | Posted: | Nov 23, 2011 06:15 | | Subject: | Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 1009 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | | Status: | Open | | Vote: | [Yes|No] | |
|
| This suggestion is a summary of my recommendations, plus input from others' many
private messages I received on this over the last few days that I would like
Admin to consider in the site upgrade.
BACKGROUND AND JUSTIFICATION:-
The BrickLink site has always required its' members, both buyers and sellers,
to trade legally and fairly. This is an essential aspect of the site's reputation
which makes it an attractive venue for buyers and sellers to trade here with
confidence and safety. The continued success of the site and enjoyment of it
experienced by its' members both depend heavilly on this being maintained.
The site continues to grow rapidly and welcomes many mew members, both buyers
and sellers every day. The financial success of the site has indeed secured its'
future beyond the loss of its' inspired founder. In the early days, this site
was a small community and the founder members and early adopters clearly did
a great job in building the principles of the site and policing it in a self-regulatory
way. For the most part this still works today but, as is demonstrated in the
many threads recently, some (buyers and sellers) are falling short of those principles
and indeed the law! This may be driven by the vast increase in membership which
makes this place less "personal" for some and combined with this; the laws and
regulations covering internet trading become more and more complex as governments
focus on the explosion of such trading and their need to close tax loopholes
and try to protect their consumers from substandard trading and scams.
I believe the site and ALL its' members (except for any that come here to do
unfair or illegal trading) will benefit from a more developed policy on safe
and legal trading for both their own protection and for the reputation of the
site in general which should help promote its' continued growth and success.
The following suggestions are simply my thougths on "how" some of the issues
might be addressed taking into account the direct input I have had from several
other members as well as many forum threads over the years but some recent ones
in particular:-
SUGGESTION #1 - EXPAND ON THIS IN TOS:-
TOS #11 REQUIRES the following.
"General Compliance with Laws:
You shall comply with all applicable laws, statutes, ordinances and regulations
regarding your use of our service and your listing, purchase and sale of items."
Whilst this "covers" the site in demonstrating to authorities its' intent not
to encourage illegal behaviour, in practice it does little or nothing to:
1. Help inform its' members about what those laws might be and where to find
out about them. Many of the problems here (for buyers and sellers) are caused
by a complete lack of knowledge on the relevent laws.
2. Provides no penalty for breaking them which unfortunately is the reason why
some of the intentional law breakers are comming here.
I suggest changing the TOS #11 to spell out some of the specific laws that members
need to comply with, namely:
Customs - sellers are required to complete customs documents as required by law
honestly and accurately which, for the purpose of selling here, means declaring
the sales value of the goods as stated on the invoice and NOT misprepresenting
commercial sales as gifts.
Compliance with local advertising, selling and consumer protection laws - sellers
are required to comply with all relevent laws applicable to their selling activities.
Taxation - prior to listing any items for sale, sellers are advised to check
the rules in their country relating to any taxation they may need to charge their
customers (e.g. sales tax, VAT as applicable) and any requirements to declare
to their tax authorities any sales activity they conduct on this site.
SUGGESTION #2 - MAKE CUSTOMS FRAUD A REPORTABLE OFFENCE:-
Just as we can report listings that do not comply with the TOS, have a similar
funtion where:
1. Sellers can report (with evidence e.g. private message) to Admin that a buyer
requested a fraudulent customs declaration.
2. Buyers can report (with evidence e.g. private message or something in sellers'
terms) that a seller is offering a fraudulent customs declaration.
3. If a penalty is given, just like an NPB or NSS, a buyer or seller can have
feedback removed if it was given in relation to a transaction subject to the
penalty.
4. A buyer or seller has the right to cancel an order without penalty if subject
to a validated request for customs fraud.
Validated reports would result in a penalty ranging from 1st warning, through
temporary suspension of buying or selling rights, to membership termination for
repeat offenders.
SUGGESTION #3 - HAVE A HELP GUIDE ON SAFETY AND THE LAW
Which members have to declare they have read before they can buy or sell on the
site.
Unlike eBay which has legal resources in many of its' markets, BL has a central
Administration which cannot be expected to be expert on these matter in all geographies.
Perhaps we cound have voluntary "country Admins" for this purpose who would be
responsible for maintaining content with an opening statement relevent to their
market and a number of (official government only) links to any laws relating
to internet buying and selling in their country and the official taxation and
customs sites for their country. This must have a legal disclaimer saying these
Admins and the site are not giving legal advice and it is the ultimate responsibility
of the individual member to ensure he/she complies with all applicable laws.
SUGGESTION #4 - HAVE SOME FUNCTION TO PROMPT BUYERS WHEN BUYING INTERNATIONALLY
-
When you put something in a cart of a store not in your country, you are prompted
to look at a page that says something like:-
"You are about to purchase from a store located outside of your country, you
are advised to check if you may be liable for any customs charges relating to
importing this item into your country WHICH ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY before committing
to this purchase. Purchasing from overseas may also limit your rights as a buyer."
Obviously, this needs some more thought! I would not want this message for EVERY
item I put in a store cart, maybe just the 1st one for example. Maybe give an
option "do not show this message again" after a couple of hits on it within a
certain time period.
SUMMING IT UP FOR ME:-
None of this changes anything that is not the intent of the current TOS.
It is not to differentiate between "private" or "business" sellers for any purpose
of promoting one above the other, although for UK at least and many EU countries,
Gareth's suggestion on that would help keep sellers on the right side of the
law so I still support that too. There does seem to be some differences of definition
on that between countries which would need to be addressed further.
This is intended to HELP buyers and sellers comply with their laws and avoid
some of the risks many are taking now through ignorance of them. Being reported
for falling foul of a law or being caught not complying with it in most cases
carries penalties that most people would be pleased to avoid if given a chance
and informing them better simply helps to avoid that possibility 
I would be happy to do more work on this if required as I am passionate about
keeping this a safe, respected place with trading standards that we can ALL be
proud of and enjoy.
CONGRATUALTIONS YOU GOT TO THE END OF THIS POST -
Thank you very much for your time!
Robert
|
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| | | | | Author: | jimred | | Posted: | Nov 23, 2011 08:08 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 102 times | | Topic: | Terms and Policies | |
|
| In Terms and Policies, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | This suggestion is a summary of my recommendations, plus input from others' many
private messages I received on this over the last few days that I would like
Admin to consider in the site upgrade.
BACKGROUND AND JUSTIFICATION:-
The BrickLink site has always required its' members, both buyers and sellers,
to trade legally and fairly. This is an essential aspect of the site's reputation
which makes it an attractive venue for buyers and sellers to trade here with
confidence and safety. The continued success of the site and enjoyment of it
experienced by its' members both depend heavilly on this being maintained.
The site continues to grow rapidly and welcomes many mew members, both buyers
and sellers every day. The financial success of the site has indeed secured its'
future beyond the loss of its' inspired founder. In the early days, this site
was a small community and the founder members and early adopters clearly did
a great job in building the principles of the site and policing it in a self-regulatory
way. For the most part this still works today but, as is demonstrated in the
many threads recently, some (buyers and sellers) are falling short of those principles
and indeed the law! This may be driven by the vast increase in membership which
makes this place less "personal" for some and combined with this; the laws and
regulations covering internet trading become more and more complex as governments
focus on the explosion of such trading and their need to close tax loopholes
and try to protect their consumers from substandard trading and scams.
I believe the site and ALL its' members (except for any that come here to do
unfair or illegal trading) will benefit from a more developed policy on safe
and legal trading for both their own protection and for the reputation of the
site in general which should help promote its' continued growth and success.
The following suggestions are simply my thougths on "how" some of the issues
might be addressed taking into account the direct input I have had from several
other members as well as many forum threads over the years but some recent ones
in particular:-
SUGGESTION #1 - EXPAND ON THIS IN TOS:-
TOS #11 REQUIRES the following.
"General Compliance with Laws:
You shall comply with all applicable laws, statutes, ordinances and regulations
regarding your use of our service and your listing, purchase and sale of items."
Whilst this "covers" the site in demonstrating to authorities its' intent not
to encourage illegal behaviour, in practice it does little or nothing to:
1. Help inform its' members about what those laws might be and where to find
out about them. Many of the problems here (for buyers and sellers) are caused
by a complete lack of knowledge on the relevent laws.
2. Provides no penalty for breaking them which unfortunately is the reason why
some of the intentional law breakers are comming here.
I suggest changing the TOS #11 to spell out some of the specific laws that members
need to comply with, namely:
Customs - sellers are required to complete customs documents as required by law
honestly and accurately which, for the purpose of selling here, means declaring
the sales value of the goods as stated on the invoice and NOT misprepresenting
commercial sales as gifts.
Compliance with local advertising, selling and consumer protection laws - sellers
are required to comply with all relevent laws applicable to their selling activities.
Taxation - prior to listing any items for sale, sellers are advised to check
the rules in their country relating to any taxation they may need to charge their
customers (e.g. sales tax, VAT as applicable) and any requirements to declare
to their tax authorities any sales activity they conduct on this site.
SUGGESTION #2 - MAKE CUSTOMS FRAUD A REPORTABLE OFFENCE:-
Just as we can report listings that do not comply with the TOS, have a similar
funtion where:
1. Sellers can report (with evidence e.g. private message) to Admin that a buyer
requested a fraudulent customs declaration.
2. Buyers can report (with evidence e.g. private message or something in sellers'
terms) that a seller is offering a fraudulent customs declaration.
3. If a penalty is given, just like an NPB or NSS, a buyer or seller can have
feedback removed if it was given in relation to a transaction subject to the
penalty.
4. A buyer or seller has the right to cancel an order without penalty if subject
to a validated request for customs fraud.
Validated reports would result in a penalty ranging from 1st warning, through
temporary suspension of buying or selling rights, to membership termination for
repeat offenders.
SUGGESTION #3 - HAVE A HELP GUIDE ON SAFETY AND THE LAW
Which members have to declare they have read before they can buy or sell on the
site.
Unlike eBay which has legal resources in many of its' markets, BL has a central
Administration which cannot be expected to be expert on these matter in all geographies.
Perhaps we cound have voluntary "country Admins" for this purpose who would be
responsible for maintaining content with an opening statement relevent to their
market and a number of (official government only) links to any laws relating
to internet buying and selling in their country and the official taxation and
customs sites for their country. This must have a legal disclaimer saying these
Admins and the site are not giving legal advice and it is the ultimate responsibility
of the individual member to ensure he/she complies with all applicable laws.
SUGGESTION #4 - HAVE SOME FUNCTION TO PROMPT BUYERS WHEN BUYING INTERNATIONALLY
-
When you put something in a cart of a store not in your country, you are prompted
to look at a page that says something like:-
"You are about to purchase from a store located outside of your country, you
are advised to check if you may be liable for any customs charges relating to
importing this item into your country WHICH ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY before committing
to this purchase. Purchasing from overseas may also limit your rights as a buyer."
Obviously, this needs some more thought! I would not want this message for EVERY
item I put in a store cart, maybe just the 1st one for example. Maybe give an
option "do not show this message again" after a couple of hits on it within a
certain time period.
SUMMING IT UP FOR ME:-
None of this changes anything that is not the intent of the current TOS.
It is not to differentiate between "private" or "business" sellers for any purpose
of promoting one above the other, although for UK at least and many EU countries,
Gareth's suggestion on that would help keep sellers on the right side of the
law so I still support that too. There does seem to be some differences of definition
on that between countries which would need to be addressed further.
This is intended to HELP buyers and sellers comply with their laws and avoid
some of the risks many are taking now through ignorance of them. Being reported
for falling foul of a law or being caught not complying with it in most cases
carries penalties that most people would be pleased to avoid if given a chance
and informing them better simply helps to avoid that possibility
I would be happy to do more work on this if required as I am passionate about
keeping this a safe, respected place with trading standards that we can ALL be
proud of and enjoy.
CONGRATUALTIONS YOU GOT TO THE END OF THIS POST -
Thank you very much for your time!
Robert
|
I think this is a great suggestion.
Laws and taxation are confusing at the best of times, so trying to negotiate
international contract and sales law when many of us are just 'small enterprises'
(be it business or hobby) is just not going to happen and just ignoring it isn't
an option.
Likewise, many first-time casual buyers expect certain things from online retailers
and may not realise that some of the those things may or may not apply here and
may have never ordered anything that had to come from overseas before.
I think giving people information so they can then make an informed decision
can only be a good thing (as long as the information is sound). Even if it's
just a list of 'thing's to consider' it could prevent many of the problems.
James.
|
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| | | | | Author: | maxx3001 | | Posted: | Nov 23, 2011 08:18 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 66 times | | Topic: | Terms and Policies | |
|
| In Terms and Policies, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | This suggestion is a summary of my recommendations, plus input from others' many
private messages I received on this over the last few days that I would like
Admin to consider in the site upgrade.
|
Great read, mostly agree, only the "you are now ordering from someone overseas"
popup message needs a bit more tinkering
Maxx
| |
BACKGROUND AND JUSTIFICATION:-
The BrickLink site has always required its' members, both buyers and sellers,
to trade legally and fairly. This is an essential aspect of the site's reputation
which makes it an attractive venue for buyers and sellers to trade here with
confidence and safety. The continued success of the site and enjoyment of it
experienced by its' members both depend heavilly on this being maintained.
The site continues to grow rapidly and welcomes many mew members, both buyers
and sellers every day. The financial success of the site has indeed secured its'
future beyond the loss of its' inspired founder. In the early days, this site
was a small community and the founder members and early adopters clearly did
a great job in building the principles of the site and policing it in a self-regulatory
way. For the most part this still works today but, as is demonstrated in the
many threads recently, some (buyers and sellers) are falling short of those principles
and indeed the law! This may be driven by the vast increase in membership which
makes this place less "personal" for some and combined with this; the laws and
regulations covering internet trading become more and more complex as governments
focus on the explosion of such trading and their need to close tax loopholes
and try to protect their consumers from substandard trading and scams.
I believe the site and ALL its' members (except for any that come here to do
unfair or illegal trading) will benefit from a more developed policy on safe
and legal trading for both their own protection and for the reputation of the
site in general which should help promote its' continued growth and success.
The following suggestions are simply my thougths on "how" some of the issues
might be addressed taking into account the direct input I have had from several
other members as well as many forum threads over the years but some recent ones
in particular:-
SUGGESTION #1 - EXPAND ON THIS IN TOS:-
TOS #11 REQUIRES the following.
"General Compliance with Laws:
You shall comply with all applicable laws, statutes, ordinances and regulations
regarding your use of our service and your listing, purchase and sale of items."
Whilst this "covers" the site in demonstrating to authorities its' intent not
to encourage illegal behaviour, in practice it does little or nothing to:
1. Help inform its' members about what those laws might be and where to find
out about them. Many of the problems here (for buyers and sellers) are caused
by a complete lack of knowledge on the relevent laws.
2. Provides no penalty for breaking them which unfortunately is the reason why
some of the intentional law breakers are comming here.
I suggest changing the TOS #11 to spell out some of the specific laws that members
need to comply with, namely:
Customs - sellers are required to complete customs documents as required by law
honestly and accurately which, for the purpose of selling here, means declaring
the sales value of the goods as stated on the invoice and NOT misprepresenting
commercial sales as gifts.
Compliance with local advertising, selling and consumer protection laws - sellers
are required to comply with all relevent laws applicable to their selling activities.
Taxation - prior to listing any items for sale, sellers are advised to check
the rules in their country relating to any taxation they may need to charge their
customers (e.g. sales tax, VAT as applicable) and any requirements to declare
to their tax authorities any sales activity they conduct on this site.
SUGGESTION #2 - MAKE CUSTOMS FRAUD A REPORTABLE OFFENCE:-
Just as we can report listings that do not comply with the TOS, have a similar
funtion where:
1. Sellers can report (with evidence e.g. private message) to Admin that a buyer
requested a fraudulent customs declaration.
2. Buyers can report (with evidence e.g. private message or something in sellers'
terms) that a seller is offering a fraudulent customs declaration.
3. If a penalty is given, just like an NPB or NSS, a buyer or seller can have
feedback removed if it was given in relation to a transaction subject to the
penalty.
4. A buyer or seller has the right to cancel an order without penalty if subject
to a validated request for customs fraud.
Validated reports would result in a penalty ranging from 1st warning, through
temporary suspension of buying or selling rights, to membership termination for
repeat offenders.
SUGGESTION #3 - HAVE A HELP GUIDE ON SAFETY AND THE LAW
Which members have to declare they have read before they can buy or sell on the
site.
Unlike eBay which has legal resources in many of its' markets, BL has a central
Administration which cannot be expected to be expert on these matter in all geographies.
Perhaps we cound have voluntary "country Admins" for this purpose who would be
responsible for maintaining content with an opening statement relevent to their
market and a number of (official government only) links to any laws relating
to internet buying and selling in their country and the official taxation and
customs sites for their country. This must have a legal disclaimer saying these
Admins and the site are not giving legal advice and it is the ultimate responsibility
of the individual member to ensure he/she complies with all applicable laws.
SUGGESTION #4 - HAVE SOME FUNCTION TO PROMPT BUYERS WHEN BUYING INTERNATIONALLY
-
When you put something in a cart of a store not in your country, you are prompted
to look at a page that says something like:-
"You are about to purchase from a store located outside of your country, you
are advised to check if you may be liable for any customs charges relating to
importing this item into your country WHICH ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY before committing
to this purchase. Purchasing from overseas may also limit your rights as a buyer."
Obviously, this needs some more thought! I would not want this message for EVERY
item I put in a store cart, maybe just the 1st one for example. Maybe give an
option "do not show this message again" after a couple of hits on it within a
certain time period.
SUMMING IT UP FOR ME:-
None of this changes anything that is not the intent of the current TOS.
It is not to differentiate between "private" or "business" sellers for any purpose
of promoting one above the other, although for UK at least and many EU countries,
Gareth's suggestion on that would help keep sellers on the right side of the
law so I still support that too. There does seem to be some differences of definition
on that between countries which would need to be addressed further.
This is intended to HELP buyers and sellers comply with their laws and avoid
some of the risks many are taking now through ignorance of them. Being reported
for falling foul of a law or being caught not complying with it in most cases
carries penalties that most people would be pleased to avoid if given a chance
and informing them better simply helps to avoid that possibility
I would be happy to do more work on this if required as I am passionate about
keeping this a safe, respected place with trading standards that we can ALL be
proud of and enjoy.
CONGRATUALTIONS YOU GOT TO THE END OF THIS POST -
Thank you very much for your time!
Robert
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Nov 23, 2011 08:55 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 58 times | | Topic: | Terms and Policies | |
|
| In Terms and Policies, maxx3001 writes:
| | In Terms and Policies, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | This suggestion is a summary of my recommendations, plus input from others' many
private messages I received on this over the last few days that I would like
Admin to consider in the site upgrade.
|
Great read, mostly agree, only the "you are now ordering from someone overseas"
popup message needs a bit more tinkering
Maxx
|
Thanks Maxx,
That does reflect that I live on an island doesn't it 
Yep, agree this was not meant to be a completed solution, just the basis of an
idea that might help avoid the problem for the inexperienced without hurtng the
experts.
Robert
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | udenbricks | | Posted: | Nov 23, 2011 08:23 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 49 times | | Topic: | Terms and Policies | |
|
| Very well thinking:
Because you have to follow the law in any circumstances, i think it is enough
to follow suggestion #4 the "POPUP"
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Tracyd | | Posted: | Nov 23, 2011 09:03 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Terms and Policies | |
|
| In Terms and Policies, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | This suggestion is a summary of my recommendations, plus input from others' many
private messages I received on this over the last few days that I would like
Admin to consider in the site upgrade.
BACKGROUND AND JUSTIFICATION:-
The BrickLink site has always required its' members, both buyers and sellers,
to trade legally and fairly. This is an essential aspect of the site's reputation
which makes it an attractive venue for buyers and sellers to trade here with
confidence and safety. The continued success of the site and enjoyment of it
experienced by its' members both depend heavilly on this being maintained.
The site continues to grow rapidly and welcomes many mew members, both buyers
and sellers every day. The financial success of the site has indeed secured its'
future beyond the loss of its' inspired founder. In the early days, this site
was a small community and the founder members and early adopters clearly did
a great job in building the principles of the site and policing it in a self-regulatory
way. For the most part this still works today but, as is demonstrated in the
many threads recently, some (buyers and sellers) are falling short of those principles
and indeed the law! This may be driven by the vast increase in membership which
makes this place less "personal" for some and combined with this; the laws and
regulations covering internet trading become more and more complex as governments
focus on the explosion of such trading and their need to close tax loopholes
and try to protect their consumers from substandard trading and scams.
I believe the site and ALL its' members (except for any that come here to do
unfair or illegal trading) will benefit from a more developed policy on safe
and legal trading for both their own protection and for the reputation of the
site in general which should help promote its' continued growth and success.
The following suggestions are simply my thougths on "how" some of the issues
might be addressed taking into account the direct input I have had from several
other members as well as many forum threads over the years but some recent ones
in particular:-
SUGGESTION #1 - EXPAND ON THIS IN TOS:-
TOS #11 REQUIRES the following.
"General Compliance with Laws:
You shall comply with all applicable laws, statutes, ordinances and regulations
regarding your use of our service and your listing, purchase and sale of items."
Whilst this "covers" the site in demonstrating to authorities its' intent not
to encourage illegal behaviour, in practice it does little or nothing to:
1. Help inform its' members about what those laws might be and where to find
out about them. Many of the problems here (for buyers and sellers) are caused
by a complete lack of knowledge on the relevent laws.
2. Provides no penalty for breaking them which unfortunately is the reason why
some of the intentional law breakers are comming here.
I suggest changing the TOS #11 to spell out some of the specific laws that members
need to comply with, namely:
Customs - sellers are required to complete customs documents as required by law
honestly and accurately which, for the purpose of selling here, means declaring
the sales value of the goods as stated on the invoice and NOT misprepresenting
commercial sales as gifts.
Compliance with local advertising, selling and consumer protection laws - sellers
are required to comply with all relevent laws applicable to their selling activities.
Taxation - prior to listing any items for sale, sellers are advised to check
the rules in their country relating to any taxation they may need to charge their
customers (e.g. sales tax, VAT as applicable) and any requirements to declare
to their tax authorities any sales activity they conduct on this site.
SUGGESTION #2 - MAKE CUSTOMS FRAUD A REPORTABLE OFFENCE:-
Just as we can report listings that do not comply with the TOS, have a similar
funtion where:
1. Sellers can report (with evidence e.g. private message) to Admin that a buyer
requested a fraudulent customs declaration.
2. Buyers can report (with evidence e.g. private message or something in sellers'
terms) that a seller is offering a fraudulent customs declaration.
3. If a penalty is given, just like an NPB or NSS, a buyer or seller can have
feedback removed if it was given in relation to a transaction subject to the
penalty.
4. A buyer or seller has the right to cancel an order without penalty if subject
to a validated request for customs fraud.
Validated reports would result in a penalty ranging from 1st warning, through
temporary suspension of buying or selling rights, to membership termination for
repeat offenders.
SUGGESTION #3 - HAVE A HELP GUIDE ON SAFETY AND THE LAW
Which members have to declare they have read before they can buy or sell on the
site.
Unlike eBay which has legal resources in many of its' markets, BL has a central
Administration which cannot be expected to be expert on these matter in all geographies.
Perhaps we cound have voluntary "country Admins" for this purpose who would be
responsible for maintaining content with an opening statement relevent to their
market and a number of (official government only) links to any laws relating
to internet buying and selling in their country and the official taxation and
customs sites for their country. This must have a legal disclaimer saying these
Admins and the site are not giving legal advice and it is the ultimate responsibility
of the individual member to ensure he/she complies with all applicable laws.
SUGGESTION #4 - HAVE SOME FUNCTION TO PROMPT BUYERS WHEN BUYING INTERNATIONALLY
-
When you put something in a cart of a store not in your country, you are prompted
to look at a page that says something like:-
"You are about to purchase from a store located outside of your country, you
are advised to check if you may be liable for any customs charges relating to
importing this item into your country WHICH ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY before committing
to this purchase. Purchasing from overseas may also limit your rights as a buyer."
Obviously, this needs some more thought! I would not want this message for EVERY
item I put in a store cart, maybe just the 1st one for example. Maybe give an
option "do not show this message again" after a couple of hits on it within a
certain time period.
SUMMING IT UP FOR ME:-
None of this changes anything that is not the intent of the current TOS.
It is not to differentiate between "private" or "business" sellers for any purpose
of promoting one above the other, although for UK at least and many EU countries,
Gareth's suggestion on that would help keep sellers on the right side of the
law so I still support that too. There does seem to be some differences of definition
on that between countries which would need to be addressed further.
This is intended to HELP buyers and sellers comply with their laws and avoid
some of the risks many are taking now through ignorance of them. Being reported
for falling foul of a law or being caught not complying with it in most cases
carries penalties that most people would be pleased to avoid if given a chance
and informing them better simply helps to avoid that possibility
I would be happy to do more work on this if required as I am passionate about
keeping this a safe, respected place with trading standards that we can ALL be
proud of and enjoy.
CONGRATUALTIONS YOU GOT TO THE END OF THIS POST -
Thank you very much for your time!
Robert
|
For Suggestion 4 the pop-up should be upon check-out.
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| | | | | Author: | bb5160 | | Posted: | Nov 23, 2011 09:09 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Terms and Policies | |
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| Excellent suggestion! Very well thought out and articulate.
-Bill
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| | | | | Author: | beardurham | | Posted: | Nov 23, 2011 09:14 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Terms and Policies | |
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| | |
CONGRATUALTIONS YOU GOT TO THE END OF THIS POST -
Thank you very much for your time!
Robert
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Very succinct, I read it all with great interest.
You have provided a valuable source document there Robert.
If we can now persuade everyone to live up to it...
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| | | | | Author: | DallasBricks | | Posted: | Nov 23, 2011 10:22 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | Terms and Policies | |
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| Very nicely stated Robert. I appreciate your attention to detail in addressing
several annoying issues that continue to pop up and cause problems for sellers
and buyers alike. As this community continues to grow, it's issues with taxing
authorities will grow as well. It is wise that we continue to bring up and address
these issues before they come back to "byte" us (pun intended). Thanks again.
David
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| | | | | Author: | legoman77 | | Posted: | Nov 23, 2011 11:37 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 124 times | | Topic: | Terms and Policies | |
|
| In Terms and Policies, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | This suggestion is a summary of my recommendations, plus input from others' many
private messages I received on this over the last few days that I would like
Admin to consider in the site upgrade.
BACKGROUND AND JUSTIFICATION:-
The BrickLink site has always required its' members, both buyers and sellers,
to trade legally and fairly. This is an essential aspect of the site's reputation
which makes it an attractive venue for buyers and sellers to trade here with
confidence and safety. The continued success of the site and enjoyment of it
experienced by its' members both depend heavilly on this being maintained.
The site continues to grow rapidly and welcomes many mew members, both buyers
and sellers every day. The financial success of the site has indeed secured its'
future beyond the loss of its' inspired founder. In the early days, this site
was a small community and the founder members and early adopters clearly did
a great job in building the principles of the site and policing it in a self-regulatory
way. For the most part this still works today but, as is demonstrated in the
many threads recently, some (buyers and sellers) are falling short of those principles
and indeed the law! This may be driven by the vast increase in membership which
makes this place less "personal" for some and combined with this; the laws and
regulations covering internet trading become more and more complex as governments
focus on the explosion of such trading and their need to close tax loopholes
and try to protect their consumers from substandard trading and scams.
I believe the site and ALL its' members (except for any that come here to do
unfair or illegal trading) will benefit from a more developed policy on safe
and legal trading for both their own protection and for the reputation of the
site in general which should help promote its' continued growth and success.
The following suggestions are simply my thougths on "how" some of the issues
might be addressed taking into account the direct input I have had from several
other members as well as many forum threads over the years but some recent ones
in particular:-
SUGGESTION #1 - EXPAND ON THIS IN TOS:-
TOS #11 REQUIRES the following.
"General Compliance with Laws:
You shall comply with all applicable laws, statutes, ordinances and regulations
regarding your use of our service and your listing, purchase and sale of items."
Whilst this "covers" the site in demonstrating to authorities its' intent not
to encourage illegal behaviour, in practice it does little or nothing to:
1. Help inform its' members about what those laws might be and where to find
out about them. Many of the problems here (for buyers and sellers) are caused
by a complete lack of knowledge on the relevent laws.
2. Provides no penalty for breaking them which unfortunately is the reason why
some of the intentional law breakers are comming here.
I suggest changing the TOS #11 to spell out some of the specific laws that members
need to comply with, namely:
Customs - sellers are required to complete customs documents as required by law
honestly and accurately which, for the purpose of selling here, means declaring
the sales value of the goods as stated on the invoice and NOT misprepresenting
commercial sales as gifts.
Compliance with local advertising, selling and consumer protection laws - sellers
are required to comply with all relevent laws applicable to their selling activities.
Taxation - prior to listing any items for sale, sellers are advised to check
the rules in their country relating to any taxation they may need to charge their
customers (e.g. sales tax, VAT as applicable) and any requirements to declare
to their tax authorities any sales activity they conduct on this site.
SUGGESTION #2 - MAKE CUSTOMS FRAUD A REPORTABLE OFFENCE:-
Just as we can report listings that do not comply with the TOS, have a similar
funtion where:
1. Sellers can report (with evidence e.g. private message) to Admin that a buyer
requested a fraudulent customs declaration.
2. Buyers can report (with evidence e.g. private message or something in sellers'
terms) that a seller is offering a fraudulent customs declaration.
3. If a penalty is given, just like an NPB or NSS, a buyer or seller can have
feedback removed if it was given in relation to a transaction subject to the
penalty.
4. A buyer or seller has the right to cancel an order without penalty if subject
to a validated request for customs fraud.
Validated reports would result in a penalty ranging from 1st warning, through
temporary suspension of buying or selling rights, to membership termination for
repeat offenders.
SUGGESTION #3 - HAVE A HELP GUIDE ON SAFETY AND THE LAW
Which members have to declare they have read before they can buy or sell on the
site.
Unlike eBay which has legal resources in many of its' markets, BL has a central
Administration which cannot be expected to be expert on these matter in all geographies.
Perhaps we cound have voluntary "country Admins" for this purpose who would be
responsible for maintaining content with an opening statement relevent to their
market and a number of (official government only) links to any laws relating
to internet buying and selling in their country and the official taxation and
customs sites for their country. This must have a legal disclaimer saying these
Admins and the site are not giving legal advice and it is the ultimate responsibility
of the individual member to ensure he/she complies with all applicable laws.
SUGGESTION #4 - HAVE SOME FUNCTION TO PROMPT BUYERS WHEN BUYING INTERNATIONALLY
-
When you put something in a cart of a store not in your country, you are prompted
to look at a page that says something like:-
"You are about to purchase from a store located outside of your country, you
are advised to check if you may be liable for any customs charges relating to
importing this item into your country WHICH ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY before committing
to this purchase. Purchasing from overseas may also limit your rights as a buyer."
Obviously, this needs some more thought! I would not want this message for EVERY
item I put in a store cart, maybe just the 1st one for example. Maybe give an
option "do not show this message again" after a couple of hits on it within a
certain time period.
SUMMING IT UP FOR ME:-
None of this changes anything that is not the intent of the current TOS.
It is not to differentiate between "private" or "business" sellers for any purpose
of promoting one above the other, although for UK at least and many EU countries,
Gareth's suggestion on that would help keep sellers on the right side of the
law so I still support that too. There does seem to be some differences of definition
on that between countries which would need to be addressed further.
This is intended to HELP buyers and sellers comply with their laws and avoid
some of the risks many are taking now through ignorance of them. Being reported
for falling foul of a law or being caught not complying with it in most cases
carries penalties that most people would be pleased to avoid if given a chance
and informing them better simply helps to avoid that possibility
I would be happy to do more work on this if required as I am passionate about
keeping this a safe, respected place with trading standards that we can ALL be
proud of and enjoy.
CONGRATUALTIONS YOU GOT TO THE END OF THIS POST -
Thank you very much for your time!
Robert
|
Very good and it is something admin should read and think about. BrickLink needs
more active involvement in making requests to do something illegal not proper.
Now they just leave it up to the seller and close their eyes about any suggestion
to make this needed improvement.
John P
|
|
|
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| | | | | | | Author: | George_Lucy | | Posted: | Nov 23, 2011 13:07 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 94 times | | Topic: | Terms and Policies | |
|
| I just had a trade with a international buyer. It was for almost $700.00. I
gave him 10% off ($70.00) and free shipping (As per my fourm offer) and he gave
me nothing off and his shipping was $35.00. My shipping Express mail insured
was $65.00. I sent he sent.
He then emails me and says he has to pay $200.00 tax to get package because
I declared the value. I had no choice from me it has to match insured value and
custom value. He said I could of sent multiple packages with value under $25.00.
To do that legally meaning actually putting $25.00 worth Lego to match the value
in each package and sending registered mail would of cost me $372.00.
Now he emails me and tells me I should split the diffrence of the tax with
him and he wants $100.00. I still have no product. It is clearly stated on my
splash page and to be honest I am tired of international buyers whinning about
there import resposibility and asking me to lie on documents. It is NOT my problem.
In Terms and Policies, legoman77 writes:
| | In Terms and Policies, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | This suggestion is a summary of my recommendations, plus input from others' many
private messages I received on this over the last few days that I would like
Admin to consider in the site upgrade.
BACKGROUND AND JUSTIFICATION:-
The BrickLink site has always required its' members, both buyers and sellers,
to trade legally and fairly. This is an essential aspect of the site's reputation
which makes it an attractive venue for buyers and sellers to trade here with
confidence and safety. The continued success of the site and enjoyment of it
experienced by its' members both depend heavilly on this being maintained.
The site continues to grow rapidly and welcomes many mew members, both buyers
and sellers every day. The financial success of the site has indeed secured its'
future beyond the loss of its' inspired founder. In the early days, this site
was a small community and the founder members and early adopters clearly did
a great job in building the principles of the site and policing it in a self-regulatory
way. For the most part this still works today but, as is demonstrated in the
many threads recently, some (buyers and sellers) are falling short of those principles
and indeed the law! This may be driven by the vast increase in membership which
makes this place less "personal" for some and combined with this; the laws and
regulations covering internet trading become more and more complex as governments
focus on the explosion of such trading and their need to close tax loopholes
and try to protect their consumers from substandard trading and scams.
I believe the site and ALL its' members (except for any that come here to do
unfair or illegal trading) will benefit from a more developed policy on safe
and legal trading for both their own protection and for the reputation of the
site in general which should help promote its' continued growth and success.
The following suggestions are simply my thougths on "how" some of the issues
might be addressed taking into account the direct input I have had from several
other members as well as many forum threads over the years but some recent ones
in particular:-
SUGGESTION #1 - EXPAND ON THIS IN TOS:-
TOS #11 REQUIRES the following.
"General Compliance with Laws:
You shall comply with all applicable laws, statutes, ordinances and regulations
regarding your use of our service and your listing, purchase and sale of items."
Whilst this "covers" the site in demonstrating to authorities its' intent not
to encourage illegal behaviour, in practice it does little or nothing to:
1. Help inform its' members about what those laws might be and where to find
out about them. Many of the problems here (for buyers and sellers) are caused
by a complete lack of knowledge on the relevent laws.
2. Provides no penalty for breaking them which unfortunately is the reason why
some of the intentional law breakers are comming here.
I suggest changing the TOS #11 to spell out some of the specific laws that members
need to comply with, namely:
Customs - sellers are required to complete customs documents as required by law
honestly and accurately which, for the purpose of selling here, means declaring
the sales value of the goods as stated on the invoice and NOT misprepresenting
commercial sales as gifts.
Compliance with local advertising, selling and consumer protection laws - sellers
are required to comply with all relevent laws applicable to their selling activities.
Taxation - prior to listing any items for sale, sellers are advised to check
the rules in their country relating to any taxation they may need to charge their
customers (e.g. sales tax, VAT as applicable) and any requirements to declare
to their tax authorities any sales activity they conduct on this site.
SUGGESTION #2 - MAKE CUSTOMS FRAUD A REPORTABLE OFFENCE:-
Just as we can report listings that do not comply with the TOS, have a similar
funtion where:
1. Sellers can report (with evidence e.g. private message) to Admin that a buyer
requested a fraudulent customs declaration.
2. Buyers can report (with evidence e.g. private message or something in sellers'
terms) that a seller is offering a fraudulent customs declaration.
3. If a penalty is given, just like an NPB or NSS, a buyer or seller can have
feedback removed if it was given in relation to a transaction subject to the
penalty.
4. A buyer or seller has the right to cancel an order without penalty if subject
to a validated request for customs fraud.
Validated reports would result in a penalty ranging from 1st warning, through
temporary suspension of buying or selling rights, to membership termination for
repeat offenders.
SUGGESTION #3 - HAVE A HELP GUIDE ON SAFETY AND THE LAW
Which members have to declare they have read before they can buy or sell on the
site.
Unlike eBay which has legal resources in many of its' markets, BL has a central
Administration which cannot be expected to be expert on these matter in all geographies.
Perhaps we cound have voluntary "country Admins" for this purpose who would be
responsible for maintaining content with an opening statement relevent to their
market and a number of (official government only) links to any laws relating
to internet buying and selling in their country and the official taxation and
customs sites for their country. This must have a legal disclaimer saying these
Admins and the site are not giving legal advice and it is the ultimate responsibility
of the individual member to ensure he/she complies with all applicable laws.
SUGGESTION #4 - HAVE SOME FUNCTION TO PROMPT BUYERS WHEN BUYING INTERNATIONALLY
-
When you put something in a cart of a store not in your country, you are prompted
to look at a page that says something like:-
"You are about to purchase from a store located outside of your country, you
are advised to check if you may be liable for any customs charges relating to
importing this item into your country WHICH ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY before committing
to this purchase. Purchasing from overseas may also limit your rights as a buyer."
Obviously, this needs some more thought! I would not want this message for EVERY
item I put in a store cart, maybe just the 1st one for example. Maybe give an
option "do not show this message again" after a couple of hits on it within a
certain time period.
SUMMING IT UP FOR ME:-
None of this changes anything that is not the intent of the current TOS.
It is not to differentiate between "private" or "business" sellers for any purpose
of promoting one above the other, although for UK at least and many EU countries,
Gareth's suggestion on that would help keep sellers on the right side of the
law so I still support that too. There does seem to be some differences of definition
on that between countries which would need to be addressed further.
This is intended to HELP buyers and sellers comply with their laws and avoid
some of the risks many are taking now through ignorance of them. Being reported
for falling foul of a law or being caught not complying with it in most cases
carries penalties that most people would be pleased to avoid if given a chance
and informing them better simply helps to avoid that possibility
I would be happy to do more work on this if required as I am passionate about
keeping this a safe, respected place with trading standards that we can ALL be
proud of and enjoy.
CONGRATUALTIONS YOU GOT TO THE END OF THIS POST -
Thank you very much for your time!
Robert
|
Very good and it is something admin should read and think about. BrickLink needs
more active involvement in making requests to do something illegal not proper.
Now they just leave it up to the seller and close their eyes about any suggestion
to make this needed improvement.
John P
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | legoman77 | | Posted: | Nov 23, 2011 14:46 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 68 times | | Topic: | Terms and Policies | |
|
| In Terms and Policies, George_Lucy writes:
| | I just had a trade with a international buyer. It was for almost $700.00. I
gave him 10% off ($70.00) and free shipping (As per my fourm offer) and he gave
me nothing off and his shipping was $35.00. My shipping Express mail insured
was $65.00. I sent he sent.
He then emails me and says he has to pay $200.00 tax to get package because
I declared the value. I had no choice from me it has to match insured value and
custom value. He said I could of sent multiple packages with value under $25.00.
To do that legally meaning actually putting $25.00 worth Lego to match the value
in each package and sending registered mail would of cost me $372.00.
Now he emails me and tells me I should split the diffrence of the tax with
him and he wants $100.00. I still have no product. It is clearly stated on my
splash page and to be honest I am tired of international buyers whinning about
there import resposibility and asking me to lie on documents. It is NOT my problem.
|
In my opinion it is BrickLinks because they refuse to do anything about it.
But it falls back on the seller.
It would be easy for BrickLink to get involved. Send Admin a copy of the email
or refer the Bricklink message. Bricklink could tell the buyer that it is not
acceptable to do this and if there are more incidents they will be removed as
a buyer. Simple and easy, supports the honest sellers, supports honest buyers,
does not support dishonest buyers. This can affect BrickLink as much as NPB
or NSS. If BrickLink can take action there they could take action on this problem
if they wanted to.
John P
|
|
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| | | | | Author: | 1977_mauro | | Posted: | Dec 21, 2011 13:31 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 132 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| No...
Why?
Several sellers have said that MANY buyers are wanting to undevalue their packages.
This means that not only 5% of BL users want it but almost the half (in my opinion).
So it does not make a big sense in my eyes...
Beside this, I can understand the people.
The custom taxes are there to protect the own market against foreign influence.
This is great and makes also sense for new LEGO sets.
BUT:
It does make NO sense for very old sets that exists ONLY in a foreign country.
From this point of view the buyer has no chances to buy it from his own country!
So what does the customs here protect??? Nothing and in this case the people
pay the tayes for nothing!
And I would say that in most cases people are buying sets from foreign countries
not because of cheaper prices but because of missing them in their own states...
Mauro
In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | This suggestion is a summary of my recommendations, plus input from others' many
private messages I received on this over the last few days that I would like
Admin to consider in the site upgrade.
BACKGROUND AND JUSTIFICATION:-
The BrickLink site has always required its' members, both buyers and sellers,
to trade legally and fairly. This is an essential aspect of the site's reputation
which makes it an attractive venue for buyers and sellers to trade here with
confidence and safety. The continued success of the site and enjoyment of it
experienced by its' members both depend heavilly on this being maintained.
The site continues to grow rapidly and welcomes many mew members, both buyers
and sellers every day. The financial success of the site has indeed secured its'
future beyond the loss of its' inspired founder. In the early days, this site
was a small community and the founder members and early adopters clearly did
a great job in building the principles of the site and policing it in a self-regulatory
way. For the most part this still works today but, as is demonstrated in the
many threads recently, some (buyers and sellers) are falling short of those principles
and indeed the law! This may be driven by the vast increase in membership which
makes this place less "personal" for some and combined with this; the laws and
regulations covering internet trading become more and more complex as governments
focus on the explosion of such trading and their need to close tax loopholes
and try to protect their consumers from substandard trading and scams.
I believe the site and ALL its' members (except for any that come here to do
unfair or illegal trading) will benefit from a more developed policy on safe
and legal trading for both their own protection and for the reputation of the
site in general which should help promote its' continued growth and success.
The following suggestions are simply my thougths on "how" some of the issues
might be addressed taking into account the direct input I have had from several
other members as well as many forum threads over the years but some recent ones
in particular:-
SUGGESTION #1 - EXPAND ON THIS IN TOS:-
TOS #11 REQUIRES the following.
"General Compliance with Laws:
You shall comply with all applicable laws, statutes, ordinances and regulations
regarding your use of our service and your listing, purchase and sale of items."
Whilst this "covers" the site in demonstrating to authorities its' intent not
to encourage illegal behaviour, in practice it does little or nothing to:
1. Help inform its' members about what those laws might be and where to find
out about them. Many of the problems here (for buyers and sellers) are caused
by a complete lack of knowledge on the relevent laws.
2. Provides no penalty for breaking them which unfortunately is the reason why
some of the intentional law breakers are comming here.
I suggest changing the TOS #11 to spell out some of the specific laws that members
need to comply with, namely:
Customs - sellers are required to complete customs documents as required by law
honestly and accurately which, for the purpose of selling here, means declaring
the sales value of the goods as stated on the invoice and NOT misprepresenting
commercial sales as gifts.
Compliance with local advertising, selling and consumer protection laws - sellers
are required to comply with all relevent laws applicable to their selling activities.
Taxation - prior to listing any items for sale, sellers are advised to check
the rules in their country relating to any taxation they may need to charge their
customers (e.g. sales tax, VAT as applicable) and any requirements to declare
to their tax authorities any sales activity they conduct on this site.
SUGGESTION #2 - MAKE CUSTOMS FRAUD A REPORTABLE OFFENCE:-
Just as we can report listings that do not comply with the TOS, have a similar
funtion where:
1. Sellers can report (with evidence e.g. private message) to Admin that a buyer
requested a fraudulent customs declaration.
2. Buyers can report (with evidence e.g. private message or something in sellers'
terms) that a seller is offering a fraudulent customs declaration.
3. If a penalty is given, just like an NPB or NSS, a buyer or seller can have
feedback removed if it was given in relation to a transaction subject to the
penalty.
4. A buyer or seller has the right to cancel an order without penalty if subject
to a validated request for customs fraud.
Validated reports would result in a penalty ranging from 1st warning, through
temporary suspension of buying or selling rights, to membership termination for
repeat offenders.
SUGGESTION #3 - HAVE A HELP GUIDE ON SAFETY AND THE LAW
Which members have to declare they have read before they can buy or sell on the
site.
Unlike eBay which has legal resources in many of its' markets, BL has a central
Administration which cannot be expected to be expert on these matter in all geographies.
Perhaps we cound have voluntary "country Admins" for this purpose who would be
responsible for maintaining content with an opening statement relevent to their
market and a number of (official government only) links to any laws relating
to internet buying and selling in their country and the official taxation and
customs sites for their country. This must have a legal disclaimer saying these
Admins and the site are not giving legal advice and it is the ultimate responsibility
of the individual member to ensure he/she complies with all applicable laws.
SUGGESTION #4 - HAVE SOME FUNCTION TO PROMPT BUYERS WHEN BUYING INTERNATIONALLY
-
When you put something in a cart of a store not in your country, you are prompted
to look at a page that says something like:-
"You are about to purchase from a store located outside of your country, you
are advised to check if you may be liable for any customs charges relating to
importing this item into your country WHICH ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY before committing
to this purchase. Purchasing from overseas may also limit your rights as a buyer."
Obviously, this needs some more thought! I would not want this message for EVERY
item I put in a store cart, maybe just the 1st one for example. Maybe give an
option "do not show this message again" after a couple of hits on it within a
certain time period.
SUMMING IT UP FOR ME:-
None of this changes anything that is not the intent of the current TOS.
It is not to differentiate between "private" or "business" sellers for any purpose
of promoting one above the other, although for UK at least and many EU countries,
Gareth's suggestion on that would help keep sellers on the right side of the
law so I still support that too. There does seem to be some differences of definition
on that between countries which would need to be addressed further.
This is intended to HELP buyers and sellers comply with their laws and avoid
some of the risks many are taking now through ignorance of them. Being reported
for falling foul of a law or being caught not complying with it in most cases
carries penalties that most people would be pleased to avoid if given a chance
and informing them better simply helps to avoid that possibility
I would be happy to do more work on this if required as I am passionate about
keeping this a safe, respected place with trading standards that we can ALL be
proud of and enjoy.
CONGRATUALTIONS YOU GOT TO THE END OF THIS POST -
Thank you very much for your time!
Robert
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | JediRob | | Posted: | Dec 21, 2011 13:35 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 87 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, 1977_mauro writes:
| | No...
Why?
Several sellers have said that MANY buyers are wanting to undevalue their packages.
This means that not only 5% of BL users want it but almost the half (in my opinion).
So it does not make a big sense in my eyes...
Beside this, I can understand the people.
The custom taxes are there to protect the own market against foreign influence.
This is great and makes also sense for new LEGO sets.
BUT:
It does make NO sense for very old sets that exists ONLY in a foreign country.
From this point of view the buyer has no chances to buy it from his own country!
So what does the customs here protect??? Nothing and in this case the people
pay the tayes for nothing!
And I would say that in most cases people are buying sets from foreign countries
not because of cheaper prices but because of missing them in their own states...
Mauro
|
So, you are in favor of violating laws? You are in faovor of unfaair trade? You
are unwilling to deal with your own government's use of taxes, so you suggest
simply undercutting the system under which you live?
Laws are not suggestions...
-R
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | 1977_mauro | | Posted: | Dec 21, 2011 13:50 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 68 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Rob why me?
Ask the other 50% the BL users for the reasons...
I have been asked several times from USA users to send the PayPal as personal
payment.
We have no such options so I had no the option to break the laws for this...
But such questions and others similar to this one happen often here. So I think
that such a suggestion will not help to prevent such questions.
But in general I understand that countries need taxes for several projects and
I pay them without beeing angry as I know it. But laws are not allways fair and
when the laws are not fair then the people are not willing to follow it.
As an example in Germany: It is not fair that you pay 46% of your earned money
to the country as taxes and for health organization and so on but when you go
to the dentist then you have to pay between 25 - 100 Euro for a white plomb!
Mauro
In Suggestions, Master_Jedi_Rob writes:
| | In Suggestions, 1977_mauro writes:
| | No...
Why?
Several sellers have said that MANY buyers are wanting to undevalue their packages.
This means that not only 5% of BL users want it but almost the half (in my opinion).
So it does not make a big sense in my eyes...
Beside this, I can understand the people.
The custom taxes are there to protect the own market against foreign influence.
This is great and makes also sense for new LEGO sets.
BUT:
It does make NO sense for very old sets that exists ONLY in a foreign country.
From this point of view the buyer has no chances to buy it from his own country!
So what does the customs here protect??? Nothing and in this case the people
pay the tayes for nothing!
And I would say that in most cases people are buying sets from foreign countries
not because of cheaper prices but because of missing them in their own states...
Mauro
|
So, you are in favor of violating laws? You are in faovor of unfaair trade? You
are unwilling to deal with your own government's use of taxes, so you suggest
simply undercutting the system under which you live?
Laws are not suggestions...
-R
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | JediRob | | Posted: | Dec 21, 2011 13:55 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 85 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, 1977_mauro writes:
You posted, I responded.
| | Ask the other 50% the BL users for the reasons...
|
You assume 50%, but is this just some number you've made up without facts to
back it up?
| | I have been asked several times from USA users to send the PayPal as personal
payment.
|
A risky way to pay, as a buyer.
| | We have no such options so I had no the option to break the laws for this...
But such questions and others similar to this one happen often here. So I think
that such a suggestion will not help to prevent such questions.
But in general I understand that countries need taxes for several projects and
I pay them without beeing angry as I know it. But laws are not allways fair and
when the laws are not fair then the people are not willing to follow it.
As an example in Germany: It is not fair that you pay 46% of your earned money
to the country as taxes and for health organization and so on but when you go
to the dentist then you have to pay between 25 - 100 Euro for a white plomb!
|
If you don't like your own system, work to change it, until then, laws are not
suggestions.
-R
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Mlani | | Posted: | Dec 21, 2011 15:35 | | Subject: | (Cancelled) | | Viewed: | 59 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | (Cancelled) |
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | JediRob | | Posted: | Dec 21, 2011 15:52 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 89 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Mlani writes:
| | In Suggestions, Master_Jedi_Rob writes:
| |
Laws are not suggestions...
|
They are (kind of).
We ... suggest you follow this and that way of conduct or else ...
You can choose not to follow the suggestion.
Some say that is unfair
Some say it is criminal
Some disobey trying to avoid custom Taxes for several reasons.
|
My integrity dictates a different belief in this matter.
I do actually stop for pedestrians, set my speed at the limit, do not dance on
sunday's in the world of footloose. I, if need be, attempt to change things,
when I disagree.
What say you? Shall we all cheat to win? Shall we all step on others, no matter
the cost, for our own greed?
It was explained to me, how I could cheat the state government for extra moneys
by telling a small lie, it would mean I could get thousands of $$ in heath care...
But even on this issue, I can not lie. A lie for profit, via state or person
is, in my eyes reprehensible.
There are many who seem to think it's O.K. to lie, cheat, or steal to get ahead.
Perhaps this is the way the world, and this community has devolved to.
I'll not be happy, or stand idle for this.
I'll post opinions (until silenced) and stand for the good of the community.
Again, what say you!
-R
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Daave | | Posted: | Jun 9, 2013 04:47 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 79 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| RE customs valuations,
I found out that it can also depend on what the items are declared as,
I had a $120 package from the USA to the UK and I had to pay about £30 in fees
to receive the package
I also have received in the past a $120 package from the USA and paid nothing
in import taxes and fees
The only difference was the item declared on the packages..
We need to work out a universal declaration that is accurate and true.
I'm assuming if each user contacted their country's customs, they could
find out what to write..
Apparently, some countries have a specific code (numerical code) for certain
items...
I currently write "used plastic toy parts"
I have received parcels with parted out Lego in them stating 'new Lego'
by my standards that would mean retail from the online Lego.com store.. Not
Lego that's been opened and stored in a brick linkers spare room for a few
years...
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Jun 9, 2013 05:04 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 88 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Daave writes:
| | RE customs valuations,
I found out that it can also depend on what the items are declared as,
I had a $120 package from the USA to the UK and I had to pay about £30 in fees
to receive the package
I also have received in the past a $120 package from the USA and paid nothing
in import taxes and fees
The only difference was the item declared on the packages..
We need to work out a universal declaration that is accurate and true.
I'm assuming if each user contacted their country's customs, they could
find out what to write..
Apparently, some countries have a specific code (numerical code) for certain
items...
I currently write "used plastic toy parts"
I have received parcels with parted out Lego in them stating 'new Lego'
by my standards that would mean retail from the online Lego.com store.. Not
Lego that's been opened and stored in a brick linkers spare room for a few
years...
|
Hi Dave,
There are universal customs codes but for UK importing, it is really just the
amount paid for the goods that matters. New/used has no impact on customs valuation
and the difference between writing Lego/toys/toy parts/etc won't either.
Aside from incorrect/false declarations, the difference between one package and
the next one is often just a case of some slipping through and some not (good
luck) although there is a general crackdown in EU as tax revenue is in high demand
by governments at the moment! Last time I looked the official wording on the
UK customs site was "construction toys". In my reco that you refer to I would
simply put a link on the relevant BL country help page to the relevant HMRC page(s)
Robert
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | Kevin.NXT | | Posted: | Jun 9, 2013 08:18 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 69 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Daave writes:
| | RE customs valuations,
I found out that it can also depend on what the items are declared as,
I had a $120 package from the USA to the UK and I had to pay about £30 in fees
to receive the package
I also have received in the past a $120 package from the USA and paid nothing
in import taxes and fees
The only difference was the item declared on the packages..
We need to work out a universal declaration that is accurate and true.
I'm assuming if each user contacted their country's customs, they could
find out what to write..
Apparently, some countries have a specific code (numerical code) for certain
items...
|
HS Codes. I believe it is 9503.00 for Lego parts.
| |
I currently write "used plastic toy parts"
I have received parcels with parted out Lego in them stating 'new Lego'
by my standards that would mean retail from the online Lego.com store.. Not
Lego that's been opened and stored in a brick linkers spare room for a few
years...
|
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | QCBricks | | Posted: | Jun 9, 2013 15:04 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 96 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | This suggestion is a summary of my recommendations, plus input from others' many
private messages I received on this over the last few days that I would like
Admin to consider in the site upgrade.
BACKGROUND AND JUSTIFICATION:-
The BrickLink site has always required its' members, both buyers and sellers,
to trade legally and fairly. This is an essential aspect of the site's reputation
which makes it an attractive venue for buyers and sellers to trade here with
confidence and safety. The continued success of the site and enjoyment of it
experienced by its' members both depend heavilly on this being maintained.
The site continues to grow rapidly and welcomes many mew members, both buyers
and sellers every day. The financial success of the site has indeed secured its'
future beyond the loss of its' inspired founder. In the early days, this site
was a small community and the founder members and early adopters clearly did
a great job in building the principles of the site and policing it in a self-regulatory
way. For the most part this still works today but, as is demonstrated in the
many threads recently, some (buyers and sellers) are falling short of those principles
and indeed the law! This may be driven by the vast increase in membership which
makes this place less "personal" for some and combined with this; the laws and
regulations covering internet trading become more and more complex as governments
focus on the explosion of such trading and their need to close tax loopholes
and try to protect their consumers from substandard trading and scams.
I believe the site and ALL its' members (except for any that come here to do
unfair or illegal trading) will benefit from a more developed policy on safe
and legal trading for both their own protection and for the reputation of the
site in general which should help promote its' continued growth and success.
The following suggestions are simply my thougths on "how" some of the issues
might be addressed taking into account the direct input I have had from several
other members as well as many forum threads over the years but some recent ones
in particular:-
SUGGESTION #1 - EXPAND ON THIS IN TOS:-
TOS #11 REQUIRES the following.
"General Compliance with Laws:
You shall comply with all applicable laws, statutes, ordinances and regulations
regarding your use of our service and your listing, purchase and sale of items."
Whilst this "covers" the site in demonstrating to authorities its' intent not
to encourage illegal behaviour, in practice it does little or nothing to:
1. Help inform its' members about what those laws might be and where to find
out about them. Many of the problems here (for buyers and sellers) are caused
by a complete lack of knowledge on the relevent laws.
2. Provides no penalty for breaking them which unfortunately is the reason why
some of the intentional law breakers are comming here.
I suggest changing the TOS #11 to spell out some of the specific laws that members
need to comply with, namely:
Customs - sellers are required to complete customs documents as required by law
honestly and accurately which, for the purpose of selling here, means declaring
the sales value of the goods as stated on the invoice and NOT misprepresenting
commercial sales as gifts.
Compliance with local advertising, selling and consumer protection laws - sellers
are required to comply with all relevent laws applicable to their selling activities.
Taxation - prior to listing any items for sale, sellers are advised to check
the rules in their country relating to any taxation they may need to charge their
customers (e.g. sales tax, VAT as applicable) and any requirements to declare
to their tax authorities any sales activity they conduct on this site.
SUGGESTION #2 - MAKE CUSTOMS FRAUD A REPORTABLE OFFENCE:-
Just as we can report listings that do not comply with the TOS, have a similar
funtion where:
1. Sellers can report (with evidence e.g. private message) to Admin that a buyer
requested a fraudulent customs declaration.
2. Buyers can report (with evidence e.g. private message or something in sellers'
terms) that a seller is offering a fraudulent customs declaration.
3. If a penalty is given, just like an NPB or NSS, a buyer or seller can have
feedback removed if it was given in relation to a transaction subject to the
penalty.
4. A buyer or seller has the right to cancel an order without penalty if subject
to a validated request for customs fraud.
Validated reports would result in a penalty ranging from 1st warning, through
temporary suspension of buying or selling rights, to membership termination for
repeat offenders.
SUGGESTION #3 - HAVE A HELP GUIDE ON SAFETY AND THE LAW
Which members have to declare they have read before they can buy or sell on the
site.
Unlike eBay which has legal resources in many of its' markets, BL has a central
Administration which cannot be expected to be expert on these matter in all geographies.
Perhaps we cound have voluntary "country Admins" for this purpose who would be
responsible for maintaining content with an opening statement relevent to their
market and a number of (official government only) links to any laws relating
to internet buying and selling in their country and the official taxation and
customs sites for their country. This must have a legal disclaimer saying these
Admins and the site are not giving legal advice and it is the ultimate responsibility
of the individual member to ensure he/she complies with all applicable laws.
SUGGESTION #4 - HAVE SOME FUNCTION TO PROMPT BUYERS WHEN BUYING INTERNATIONALLY
-
When you put something in a cart of a store not in your country, you are prompted
to look at a page that says something like:-
"You are about to purchase from a store located outside of your country, you
are advised to check if you may be liable for any customs charges relating to
importing this item into your country WHICH ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY before committing
to this purchase. Purchasing from overseas may also limit your rights as a buyer."
Obviously, this needs some more thought! I would not want this message for EVERY
item I put in a store cart, maybe just the 1st one for example. Maybe give an
option "do not show this message again" after a couple of hits on it within a
certain time period.
SUMMING IT UP FOR ME:-
None of this changes anything that is not the intent of the current TOS.
It is not to differentiate between "private" or "business" sellers for any purpose
of promoting one above the other, although for UK at least and many EU countries,
Gareth's suggestion on that would help keep sellers on the right side of the
law so I still support that too. There does seem to be some differences of definition
on that between countries which would need to be addressed further.
This is intended to HELP buyers and sellers comply with their laws and avoid
some of the risks many are taking now through ignorance of them. Being reported
for falling foul of a law or being caught not complying with it in most cases
carries penalties that most people would be pleased to avoid if given a chance
and informing them better simply helps to avoid that possibility
I would be happy to do more work on this if required as I am passionate about
keeping this a safe, respected place with trading standards that we can ALL be
proud of and enjoy.
CONGRATUALTIONS YOU GOT TO THE END OF THIS POST -
Thank you very much for your time!
Robert
|
Great post Robert.
Generally in favor of this, but with two simple caveats.
1.) People still will not read the TOS.
Not a reason to avoid this change, but probably just makes it more likely for
buyers to freak out the first time or two something pops up. Would hate for
this to influence buyers to leave a store thinking there is some sort of additional
information or requirement for only certain stores.
2.) Like almost anything, some people will find a way to game this or abuse this.
The "proof" issue is a bit slippery because people, some of who are incredibly
motivated to get a negative removed, may attempt to falsify their "proof" of
requested fraud, and this may unfairly malign another BL user. It starts to
put admin or someone else into an enforcement role that might be hopelessly complicated
to sort.
Scott
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Steven_Villman | | Posted: | May 10, 2019 13:43 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 112 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | This suggestion is a summary of my recommendations, plus input from others' many
private messages I received on this over the last few days that I would like
Admin to consider in the site upgrade.
BACKGROUND AND JUSTIFICATION:-
The BrickLink site has always required its' members, both buyers and sellers,
to trade legally and fairly. This is an essential aspect of the site's reputation
which makes it an attractive venue for buyers and sellers to trade here with
confidence and safety. The continued success of the site and enjoyment of it
experienced by its' members both depend heavilly on this being maintained.
The site continues to grow rapidly and welcomes many mew members, both buyers
and sellers every day. The financial success of the site has indeed secured its'
future beyond the loss of its' inspired founder. In the early days, this site
was a small community and the founder members and early adopters clearly did
a great job in building the principles of the site and policing it in a self-regulatory
way. For the most part this still works today but, as is demonstrated in the
many threads recently, some (buyers and sellers) are falling short of those principles
and indeed the law! This may be driven by the vast increase in membership which
makes this place less "personal" for some and combined with this; the laws and
regulations covering internet trading become more and more complex as governments
focus on the explosion of such trading and their need to close tax loopholes
and try to protect their consumers from substandard trading and scams.
I believe the site and ALL its' members (except for any that come here to do
unfair or illegal trading) will benefit from a more developed policy on safe
and legal trading for both their own protection and for the reputation of the
site in general which should help promote its' continued growth and success.
The following suggestions are simply my thougths on "how" some of the issues
might be addressed taking into account the direct input I have had from several
other members as well as many forum threads over the years but some recent ones
in particular:-
SUGGESTION #1 - EXPAND ON THIS IN TOS:-
TOS #11 REQUIRES the following.
"General Compliance with Laws:
You shall comply with all applicable laws, statutes, ordinances and regulations
regarding your use of our service and your listing, purchase and sale of items."
Whilst this "covers" the site in demonstrating to authorities its' intent not
to encourage illegal behaviour, in practice it does little or nothing to:
1. Help inform its' members about what those laws might be and where to find
out about them. Many of the problems here (for buyers and sellers) are caused
by a complete lack of knowledge on the relevent laws.
2. Provides no penalty for breaking them which unfortunately is the reason why
some of the intentional law breakers are comming here.
I suggest changing the TOS #11 to spell out some of the specific laws that members
need to comply with, namely:
Customs - sellers are required to complete customs documents as required by law
honestly and accurately which, for the purpose of selling here, means declaring
the sales value of the goods as stated on the invoice and NOT misprepresenting
commercial sales as gifts.
Compliance with local advertising, selling and consumer protection laws - sellers
are required to comply with all relevent laws applicable to their selling activities.
Taxation - prior to listing any items for sale, sellers are advised to check
the rules in their country relating to any taxation they may need to charge their
customers (e.g. sales tax, VAT as applicable) and any requirements to declare
to their tax authorities any sales activity they conduct on this site.
SUGGESTION #2 - MAKE CUSTOMS FRAUD A REPORTABLE OFFENCE:-
Just as we can report listings that do not comply with the TOS, have a similar
funtion where:
1. Sellers can report (with evidence e.g. private message) to Admin that a buyer
requested a fraudulent customs declaration.
2. Buyers can report (with evidence e.g. private message or something in sellers'
terms) that a seller is offering a fraudulent customs declaration.
3. If a penalty is given, just like an NPB or NSS, a buyer or seller can have
feedback removed if it was given in relation to a transaction subject to the
penalty.
4. A buyer or seller has the right to cancel an order without penalty if subject
to a validated request for customs fraud.
Validated reports would result in a penalty ranging from 1st warning, through
temporary suspension of buying or selling rights, to membership termination for
repeat offenders.
SUGGESTION #3 - HAVE A HELP GUIDE ON SAFETY AND THE LAW
Which members have to declare they have read before they can buy or sell on the
site.
Unlike eBay which has legal resources in many of its' markets, BL has a central
Administration which cannot be expected to be expert on these matter in all geographies.
Perhaps we cound have voluntary "country Admins" for this purpose who would be
responsible for maintaining content with an opening statement relevent to their
market and a number of (official government only) links to any laws relating
to internet buying and selling in their country and the official taxation and
customs sites for their country. This must have a legal disclaimer saying these
Admins and the site are not giving legal advice and it is the ultimate responsibility
of the individual member to ensure he/she complies with all applicable laws.
SUGGESTION #4 - HAVE SOME FUNCTION TO PROMPT BUYERS WHEN BUYING INTERNATIONALLY
-
When you put something in a cart of a store not in your country, you are prompted
to look at a page that says something like:-
"You are about to purchase from a store located outside of your country, you
are advised to check if you may be liable for any customs charges relating to
importing this item into your country WHICH ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY before committing
to this purchase. Purchasing from overseas may also limit your rights as a buyer."
Obviously, this needs some more thought! I would not want this message for EVERY
item I put in a store cart, maybe just the 1st one for example. Maybe give an
option "do not show this message again" after a couple of hits on it within a
certain time period.
SUMMING IT UP FOR ME:-
None of this changes anything that is not the intent of the current TOS.
It is not to differentiate between "private" or "business" sellers for any purpose
of promoting one above the other, although for UK at least and many EU countries,
Gareth's suggestion on that would help keep sellers on the right side of the
law so I still support that too. There does seem to be some differences of definition
on that between countries which would need to be addressed further.
This is intended to HELP buyers and sellers comply with their laws and avoid
some of the risks many are taking now through ignorance of them. Being reported
for falling foul of a law or being caught not complying with it in most cases
carries penalties that most people would be pleased to avoid if given a chance
and informing them better simply helps to avoid that possibility
I would be happy to do more work on this if required as I am passionate about
keeping this a safe, respected place with trading standards that we can ALL be
proud of and enjoy.
CONGRATUALTIONS YOU GOT TO THE END OF THIS POST -
Thank you very much for your time!
Robert
|
This is great and all of that; as I don't support customs fraud, and so I
support this idea of yours! HOWEVER, the problem with buying internationally
(at least for a Canadian Buyer as myself) is that the sales taxes (GST, HST and/or
PST) *IN PARTICULAR* (it's much, MUCH more difficult to do it with customs
duty fees, but whatever...) aren't usually automatically levied and actually
shown/itemized on invoices for Bricklink orders from Sellers in foreign countries
like the U.S. when the net amount [price of LEGO goods, excluding shipping, handling
and insurance fees (if insurance is requested by the Buyer or is made mandatory
by the Seller)] is over $40, which is the *new* minimum amount in which GST,
HST, PST, etc. can be levied for importing goods via e-commerce. Therefore, this
creates an emotional headache for the Buyer when the mail person delivers the
parcel to the shipping address but asks for sales taxes plus the customs handling
fee payments *before* releasing the parcel to the Buyer (or to someone else on
the Buyer's behalf), as the buyer is often either in one of two situations
– one, he/she is not always home there when the parcel is attempted delivery;
or two, the buyer's own home address is different from the delivering-to
address (the latter one is the one that applies to me personally there), and
the person who is supposedly accepting the parcel on the Buyer's behalf refuses
to pay anything that is owning to various levels of government (sales taxes,
customs duties and/or customs handling fees) on the Buyer's behalf (to which
the Buyer will later pay back to whoever had to pay the various fees to the postal
worker UP FRONT on the Buyer's behalf) – which results the Buyer in needlessly
in having to go to the local post office to pick up the parcel and make "surprise"
payments for any sales taxes (as well as possible customs duty fees, in some
cases) plus the customs handling fee that are owning there.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | May 10, 2019 13:54 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 66 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | | This is great and all of that; as I don't support customs fraud, and so I
support this idea of yours! HOWEVER, the problem with buying internationally
(at least for a Canadian Buyer as myself) is that the sales taxes (GST, HST and/or
PST) *IN PARTICULAR* (it's much, MUCH more difficult to do it with customs
duty fees, but whatever...) aren't usually automatically levied and actually
shown/itemized on invoices for Bricklink orders from Sellers in foreign countries
like the U.S. when the net amount [price of LEGO goods, excluding shipping, handling
and insurance fees (if insurance is requested by the Buyer or is made mandatory
by the Seller)] is over $40, which is the *new* minimum amount in which GST,
HST, PST, etc. can be levied for importing goods via e-commerce. Therefore, this
creates an emotional headache for the Buyer when the mail person delivers the
parcel to the shipping address but asks for sales taxes plus the customs handling
fee payments *before* releasing the parcel to the Buyer (or to someone else on
the Buyer's behalf), as the buyer is often either in one of two situations
– one, he/she is not always home there when the parcel is attempted delivery;
or two, the buyer's own home address is different from the delivering-to
address (the latter one is the one that applies to me personally there), and
the person who is supposedly accepting the parcel on the Buyer's behalf refuses
to pay anything that is owning to various levels of government (sales taxes,
customs duties and/or customs handling fees) on the Buyer's behalf (to which
the Buyer will later pay back to whoever had to pay the various fees to the postal
worker UP FRONT on the Buyer's behalf) – which results the Buyer in needlessly
in having to go to the local post office to pick up the parcel and make "surprise"
payments for any sales taxes (as well as possible customs duty fees, in some
cases) plus the customs handling fee that are owning there.
|
I don't really see how any of this is different to other countries that charge
sales tax on imported goods over a threshold. If you buy over the threshold,
you get taxed. It is your job to know about this as an importer buyer, and there
should not be a surprise.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Steven_Villman | | Posted: | May 10, 2019 14:38 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 78 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
| | | | This is great and all of that; as I don't support customs fraud, and so I
support this idea of yours! HOWEVER, the problem with buying internationally
(at least for a Canadian Buyer as myself) is that the sales taxes (GST, HST and/or
PST) *IN PARTICULAR* (it's much, MUCH more difficult to do it with customs
duty fees, but whatever...) aren't usually automatically levied and actually
shown/itemized on invoices for Bricklink orders from Sellers in foreign countries
like the U.S. when the net amount [price of LEGO goods, excluding shipping, handling
and insurance fees (if insurance is requested by the Buyer or is made mandatory
by the Seller)] is over $40, which is the *new* minimum amount in which GST,
HST, PST, etc. can be levied for importing goods via e-commerce. Therefore, this
creates an emotional headache for the Buyer when the mail person delivers the
parcel to the shipping address but asks for sales taxes plus the customs handling
fee payments *before* releasing the parcel to the Buyer (or to someone else on
the Buyer's behalf), as the buyer is often either in one of two situations
– one, he/she is not always home there when the parcel is attempted delivery;
or two, the buyer's own home address is different from the delivering-to
address (the latter one is the one that applies to me personally there), and
the person who is supposedly accepting the parcel on the Buyer's behalf refuses
to pay anything that is owning to various levels of government (sales taxes,
customs duties and/or customs handling fees) on the Buyer's behalf (to which
the Buyer will later pay back to whoever had to pay the various fees to the postal
worker UP FRONT on the Buyer's behalf) – which results the Buyer in needlessly
in having to go to the local post office to pick up the parcel and make "surprise"
payments for any sales taxes (as well as possible customs duty fees, in some
cases) plus the customs handling fee that are owning there.
|
I don't really see how any of this is different to other countries that charge
sales tax on imported goods over a threshold. If you buy over the threshold,
you get taxed. It is your job to know about this as an importer buyer, and there
should not be a surprise.
|
I see your point. However, sales taxes should *still* always be itemized (IF
there's going to be any amount that's owing to various levels of government
in their county) on the invoice for Bricklink orders from Bricklink Sellers from
foreign countries [just like shipping and handling and insurance (if any) charges
are itemized on Bricklink invoices now for *ALL* Bricklink orders *regardless*
of country of origin]. *That* is what I meant by "surprise" charges; "surprise"
charges [I put the word "surprise" in double quotation marks because *some* people
already can figure out on what sales taxes in which they will owe to various
levels of government for any given Bricklink order; but the fact remains that
not everyone can figure it out, and others (like me) just don't want the
hassle in having to pay *TWO* separate times (2 separate transactions: one when
they first place the order and one when they see a postal worker to receive/claim
their package) for their Bricklink order and thus want to pay for it once and
forget about it!] of this nature can be quite easily be avoid there (unlike *CUSTOMS
DUTIES*, as they are much, MUCH more unpredictable – thus very difficult – to
calculate there!) if they were actually itemized on Bricklink Orders' invoices.
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| | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | May 13, 2019 04:52 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 103 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | This suggestion is a summary of my recommendations, plus input from others' many
private messages I received on this over the last few days that I would like
Admin to consider in the site upgrade.
BACKGROUND AND JUSTIFICATION:-
The BrickLink site has always required its' members, both buyers and sellers,
to trade legally and fairly. This is an essential aspect of the site's reputation
which makes it an attractive venue for buyers and sellers to trade here with
confidence and safety. The continued success of the site and enjoyment of it
experienced by its' members both depend heavilly on this being maintained.
The site continues to grow rapidly and welcomes many mew members, both buyers
and sellers every day. The financial success of the site has indeed secured its'
future beyond the loss of its' inspired founder. In the early days, this site
was a small community and the founder members and early adopters clearly did
a great job in building the principles of the site and policing it in a self-regulatory
way. For the most part this still works today but, as is demonstrated in the
many threads recently, some (buyers and sellers) are falling short of those principles
and indeed the law! This may be driven by the vast increase in membership which
makes this place less "personal" for some and combined with this; the laws and
regulations covering internet trading become more and more complex as governments
focus on the explosion of such trading and their need to close tax loopholes
and try to protect their consumers from substandard trading and scams.
I believe the site and ALL its' members (except for any that come here to do
unfair or illegal trading) will benefit from a more developed policy on safe
and legal trading for both their own protection and for the reputation of the
site in general which should help promote its' continued growth and success.
The following suggestions are simply my thougths on "how" some of the issues
might be addressed taking into account the direct input I have had from several
other members as well as many forum threads over the years but some recent ones
in particular:-
SUGGESTION #1 - EXPAND ON THIS IN TOS:-
TOS #11 REQUIRES the following.
"General Compliance with Laws:
You shall comply with all applicable laws, statutes, ordinances and regulations
regarding your use of our service and your listing, purchase and sale of items."
Whilst this "covers" the site in demonstrating to authorities its' intent not
to encourage illegal behaviour, in practice it does little or nothing to:
1. Help inform its' members about what those laws might be and where to find
out about them. Many of the problems here (for buyers and sellers) are caused
by a complete lack of knowledge on the relevent laws.
2. Provides no penalty for breaking them which unfortunately is the reason why
some of the intentional law breakers are comming here.
I suggest changing the TOS #11 to spell out some of the specific laws that members
need to comply with, namely:
Customs - sellers are required to complete customs documents as required by law
honestly and accurately which, for the purpose of selling here, means declaring
the sales value of the goods as stated on the invoice and NOT misprepresenting
commercial sales as gifts.
Compliance with local advertising, selling and consumer protection laws - sellers
are required to comply with all relevent laws applicable to their selling activities.
Taxation - prior to listing any items for sale, sellers are advised to check
the rules in their country relating to any taxation they may need to charge their
customers (e.g. sales tax, VAT as applicable) and any requirements to declare
to their tax authorities any sales activity they conduct on this site.
SUGGESTION #2 - MAKE CUSTOMS FRAUD A REPORTABLE OFFENCE:-
Just as we can report listings that do not comply with the TOS, have a similar
funtion where:
1. Sellers can report (with evidence e.g. private message) to Admin that a buyer
requested a fraudulent customs declaration.
2. Buyers can report (with evidence e.g. private message or something in sellers'
terms) that a seller is offering a fraudulent customs declaration.
3. If a penalty is given, just like an NPB or NSS, a buyer or seller can have
feedback removed if it was given in relation to a transaction subject to the
penalty.
4. A buyer or seller has the right to cancel an order without penalty if subject
to a validated request for customs fraud.
Validated reports would result in a penalty ranging from 1st warning, through
temporary suspension of buying or selling rights, to membership termination for
repeat offenders.
SUGGESTION #3 - HAVE A HELP GUIDE ON SAFETY AND THE LAW
Which members have to declare they have read before they can buy or sell on the
site.
Unlike eBay which has legal resources in many of its' markets, BL has a central
Administration which cannot be expected to be expert on these matter in all geographies.
Perhaps we cound have voluntary "country Admins" for this purpose who would be
responsible for maintaining content with an opening statement relevent to their
market and a number of (official government only) links to any laws relating
to internet buying and selling in their country and the official taxation and
customs sites for their country. This must have a legal disclaimer saying these
Admins and the site are not giving legal advice and it is the ultimate responsibility
of the individual member to ensure he/she complies with all applicable laws.
SUGGESTION #4 - HAVE SOME FUNCTION TO PROMPT BUYERS WHEN BUYING INTERNATIONALLY
-
When you put something in a cart of a store not in your country, you are prompted
to look at a page that says something like:-
"You are about to purchase from a store located outside of your country, you
are advised to check if you may be liable for any customs charges relating to
importing this item into your country WHICH ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY before committing
to this purchase. Purchasing from overseas may also limit your rights as a buyer."
Obviously, this needs some more thought! I would not want this message for EVERY
item I put in a store cart, maybe just the 1st one for example. Maybe give an
option "do not show this message again" after a couple of hits on it within a
certain time period.
SUMMING IT UP FOR ME:-
None of this changes anything that is not the intent of the current TOS.
It is not to differentiate between "private" or "business" sellers for any purpose
of promoting one above the other, although for UK at least and many EU countries,
Gareth's suggestion on that would help keep sellers on the right side of the
law so I still support that too. There does seem to be some differences of definition
on that between countries which would need to be addressed further.
This is intended to HELP buyers and sellers comply with their laws and avoid
some of the risks many are taking now through ignorance of them. Being reported
for falling foul of a law or being caught not complying with it in most cases
carries penalties that most people would be pleased to avoid if given a chance
and informing them better simply helps to avoid that possibility
I would be happy to do more work on this if required as I am passionate about
keeping this a safe, respected place with trading standards that we can ALL be
proud of and enjoy.
CONGRATUALTIONS YOU GOT TO THE END OF THIS POST -
Thank you very much for your time!
Robert
|
I very much agree with your introduction, and I can't say I disagree with
the rest, but to me the issue of customs delcarations seems really minor and
anecdotal - people are usually talking more about the issue in theory than about
actual occurences of it, and I wonder how much money in the history of Bricklink
has been actually saved by inaccurate forms.
For me much more immediate concerns that comes to mind when reading your introduction
are the following, because when I go over various random EU store's terms
MORE THAN HALF of the sample is not legally compliant with at least
one and usually multiple ones of the following rules:
- Full acceptance of cancellation without penalty and without reason required
- Accepting returns and refunding the buyer including the postage cost and the
postage cost of sending it back
- Not charging more for transaction fees than the transactions actually cost
And last but not least:
- Being responsible for lost shipments - meaning full refund or resend if anything
goes missing
These laws apply to all EU stores, regardless of the legal form of the store.
Here on Bricklink we sell in stores (selling through the forum is not even allowed).
Therefore, all of the above is applicable and in my opinion should be enforced
by Bricklink.
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| | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | May 13, 2019 06:03 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 72 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| | |
- Full acceptance of cancellation without penalty and without reason required
|
This issue has been around for years (as has the thread!). There is no legal
right to cancellation without penalty. The buyer has a right to cancel,
but that does not mean that they can order, then cancel. Order, then cancel.
And so on without penalty. If a buyer becomes a problem for a store (whether
on BL or elsewhere), the store is legally entitled to stop selling to them. It
is the same with feedback - feedback does not affect the right to cancellation.
Just because a buyer has a right to cancel, it does not take away the right a
seller has to leave feedback or file a NPB. Of course, if a buyer is responsive
and asks for a cancellation, then many decent sellers will allow cancellations
and they may be more lenient than if the buyer just doesn't pay. But if a
buyer orders then cancels, orders then cancels, orders then cancels, it wouldn't
surprise me if the buyer gets blocked from buying from that store.
| | - Accepting returns and refunding the buyer including the postage cost and the
postage cost of sending it back
|
Again, legally they have this right (although may need to pay return postage
if this is detailed in the seller's terms). But that doesn't mean the
seller cannot block them to stop them doing it again in the future.
Large online retailers are starting to crack down on people buying items, especially
clothes, wearing them with the tags on, then returning them.
| |
- Not charging more for transaction fees than the transactions actually cost
|
No problem there.
| | And last but not least:
- Being responsible for lost shipments - meaning full refund or resend if anything
goes missing
|
And no problem there, and this holds if the buyer pays with paypal anyway. Although
if BL start asking for proof of delivery routinely, this may change smaller orders
as sellers start charging for this.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | May 13, 2019 14:45 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
| | | |
- Full acceptance of cancellation without penalty and without reason required
|
This issue has been around for years (as has the thread!). There is no legal
right to cancellation without penalty. The buyer has a right to cancel,
but that does not mean that they can order, then cancel. Order, then cancel.
And so on without penalty. If a buyer becomes a problem for a store (whether
on BL or elsewhere), the store is legally entitled to stop selling to them. It
is the same with feedback - feedback does not affect the right to cancellation.
Just because a buyer has a right to cancel, it does not take away the right a
seller has to leave feedback or file a NPB. Of course, if a buyer is responsive
and asks for a cancellation, then many decent sellers will allow cancellations
and they may be more lenient than if the buyer just doesn't pay. But if a
buyer orders then cancels, orders then cancels, orders then cancels, it wouldn't
surprise me if the buyer gets blocked from buying from that store.
|
Well, yes, you are right. The seller has to cancel when requested but is entitled
to taking any measures they like. Especially since this Bricklink world is slightly
different from regular online retail as a lot of labour goes into getting an
order together.
Maybe the "without penalty" part wasn't phrased to well. At least I would
like the language to change. Because right now some sellers write things in their
terms like "I don't accept cancellation requests" or "orders are legally
binding contracts" or stuff like that. I think there's an important distinction
between discouraging it / considering it rude or something like that on the one
hand, and making buyers believe they have no actual choice but to pay up on the
other hand. The latter is basically misinformation about the rights that consumers
have. I think vulnerable/naive consumers should be protected by at least being
offered store terms that don't obscure their rights.
| |
| | And last but not least:
- Being responsible for lost shipments - meaning full refund or resend if anything
goes missing
|
And no problem there, and this holds if the buyer pays with paypal anyway. Although
if BL start asking for proof of delivery routinely, this may change smaller orders
as sellers start charging for this.
|
I think Bricklink could do two things in all this: 1. Enforcing by being involved
with the actual transactions, which might be complicated and costly (although
that is not an excuse it is not needed - perhaps it is) and/or 2. Simply moderate
store terms ahead of any transactions a store may be involved in. That's
not too much manual work, and we live in an age where computers can recognize
actual people in photographs, so I'm pretty sure some algorithms can be put
together to spot illegal store term claims. Even with a simple search operation
it's easy to spot them.
I think the main problem has to do with stores having illegal terms more than
store having legal terms but not keeping to them. Once the store terms are sound,
buyers will be able to call out and spot bad sellers pretty easily whenever they
cause trouble that's not in line with their own terms.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | May 14, 2019 05:17 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 73 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | | Well, yes, you are right. The seller has to cancel when requested but is entitled
to taking any measures they like. Especially since this Bricklink world is slightly
different from regular online retail as a lot of labour goes into getting an
order together.
Maybe the "without penalty" part wasn't phrased to well. At least I would
like the language to change. Because right now some sellers write things in their
terms like "I don't accept cancellation requests" or "orders are legally
binding contracts" or stuff like that. I think there's an important distinction
between discouraging it / considering it rude or something like that on the one
hand, and making buyers believe they have no actual choice but to pay up on the
other hand. The latter is basically misinformation about the rights that consumers
have. I think vulnerable/naive consumers should be protected by at least being
offered store terms that don't obscure their rights.
|
Yeah, I totally agree. This is sort of covered already in the terms, as sellers
must abide by their local laws, and writing contract terms that go against those
just mean the buyer is likely to win if they ever took the case to small claims
court or equivalent.
That said, the BL terms mention that orders are "legally binding contracts",
which probably needs cleaning up.
| | | | | | - Being responsible for lost shipments - meaning full refund or resend if anything
goes missing
|
And no problem there, and this holds if the buyer pays with paypal anyway. Although
if BL start asking for proof of delivery routinely, this may change smaller orders
as sellers start charging for this.
|
I think Bricklink could do two things in all this: 1. Enforcing by being involved
with the actual transactions, which might be complicated and costly (although
that is not an excuse it is not needed - perhaps it is) and/or 2. Simply moderate
store terms ahead of any transactions a store may be involved in. That's
not too much manual work, and we live in an age where computers can recognize
actual people in photographs, so I'm pretty sure some algorithms can be put
together to spot illegal store term claims. Even with a simple search operation
it's easy to spot them.
I think the main problem has to do with stores having illegal terms more than
store having legal terms but not keeping to them. Once the store terms are sound,
buyers will be able to call out and spot bad sellers pretty easily whenever they
cause trouble that's not in line with their own terms.
|
Yeah, although there are probably ways around the machine learning checks for
terms. It might be better that BL has one set of terms that sellers must agree
to, standardised across all stores. Where necessary there could be country based
amendments (across all sellers in that country) due to local laws.
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| | | | | | | Author: | JusTiCe8 | | Posted: | May 13, 2019 06:39 | | Subject: | Re: Fair, safe and legal trading = BL principles | | Viewed: | 68 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In an ideal world maybe, in our world anyway, even law enforcement units doesn't
care so much about laws so...
Modern profit oriented world: as long as money comes in (and in the "right" pocket),
who cares ?
But when the flow decrease or worth, stopped: panic mode, create tons of new
laws, made tons of arrests and trials (quite like financial crisis of 2007/2008)
then... move on, and the show must go on.
BL team becoming stricter = less sellers = less sales = less profit, I guess.
In Suggestions, Teup writes:
[...]
| |
These laws apply to all EU stores, regardless of the legal form of the store.
Here on Bricklink we sell in stores (selling through the forum is not even allowed).
Therefore, all of the above is applicable and in my opinion should be enforced
by Bricklink.
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United Kingdom, England
Netherlands, Utrecht
USA, Texas
Germany, Baden-Württemberg
Canada, British Columbia
France, Île-de-France