Discussion Forum: Thread 278824

 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 04:23
 Subject: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 364 times
 Topic: Problem
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calsbricks (6604)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Aug 12, 2008 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: CalsBricks
In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'
 Author: BrickCompulsion View Messages Posted By BrickCompulsion
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 04:41
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 59 times
 Topic: Problem
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BrickCompulsion (1363)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Mar 16, 2016 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Brick Compulsion
In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'

I agree - this needs clarification. I cannot understand why the vat should be
charged at all

Like asked above I would like to know about the refund process.
I would rather get the answer here before I go call the vat man to get is opinion
This seems crazy especially to not fully explain the ins and outs

If this is required why does eBay not do this ? Facebook market place ? Please
clarify as adding 20% on all my prices makes quite a difference
 Author: Pippyblocks View Messages Posted By Pippyblocks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 04:47
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 52 times
 Topic: Problem
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Pippyblocks (2243)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 20, 2017 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Pippys Blocks
I could be way off here but isn't the VAT just applied to our monthly selling
fees and not the actual sale of goods to our customers?

In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 04:49
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 55 times
 Topic: Problem
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calsbricks (6604)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Aug 12, 2008 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: CalsBricks
In Problem, Pippyblocks writes:
  I could be way off here but isn't the VAT just applied to our monthly selling
fees and not the actual sale of goods to our customers?

That is for the moment as Bricklink are not registered for VAT in the UK. But
they plan on registering in January and have implied several times that things
will work as we have outlined them. If that is not the case then they need to
clarify that.
  
In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'
 Author: bje View Messages Posted By bje
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 05:13
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 61 times
 Topic: Problem
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bje (1488)

Location:  South Africa, Western Cape
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 24, 2010 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: JE Bricks
Morning Bill

Did the EU not delay this until July 2021? And is the marketplace not defined
as making a taxable supply only when it does any of these things:

Controls the terms and conditions of the sale (BL does not, says so in the
ToS);
Authorises the charge to the customer in respect of the payment for the supply;
(Not either, not even for onsite)
and/or
Orders or delivers the goods. (most certainly not)

But, once they continue with it regardless, the short answer is that I'll
go the same route as with the USA - just stop shipping there or alternatively,
ship there only with a freight operator. Then I do not have to stress about this
nonsense and BL in my view not having the administrative capacity to deal with
this, viz the absence of VAT numbers on your invoices.

Can you imagine the absolute cock-up if a buyer asks me to provide him with proof
that the taxes and doc fees were in fact paid over so his parcel can clear through
customs? For me it is simply not good enough that they say they are doing a thing,
they must be able to provide the documentary proof. And of course it requires
tracking one very single consignment. That alone will probably kill most of the
exports anyway.

Note that the responsibility for the the tax is only once the goods arrive, not
before as the rate of exchange is set at the time of receipt in bond in the recipient
country. IF they have their wits about them and do it in that manner, then you
would not need to worry about the lost parcel refund and VAT business as there
would be no VAT if did not arrive. If they, however, start collection at the
point of invoice, you will have real problems. And for us VAT is a criminal matter
- every party to the transaction has to get all of the proper documentation else
there is a real problem (never mind the prudential reporting requirements for
forex controls).

Frankly, the requirement to do this, has been around for awhile as far as freight
operators go. Amazon has a method of collecting the tax at the same time as the
order is placed, but they ship by courier so there is no real time lag as the
full customs EDI goes through with the freight operator regardless. Amazon does
not ship using international postal services at all, in part because for postal
services this system is not operational yet. The move over to only require CN23's
and EDI for post offices is in process, but it is certainly not finalised in
a manner that you could introduce this easily.

My freight forwarder deals with this as follows:
I pay for the goods overseas in whatever currency, the goods are shipped to the
forwarder and placed in bond;
The invoice and other required documentation is delivered by me, the forwarder
assesses the cost of shipping, charges me in ZAR for the shipping cost and ships;
When they receive the goods in South Africa it is assessed for customs, doc fees,
excise duties and VAT using the currency rate at the time. This sis so becaue
the ACt says the taxable supply occurs only once the goods arrive at the border,
not before. All of these are only charged in excess of de minimis and in ZAR
for settlement at the time of their invoice.
I settle and they pay the taxes over, receives the parcel back from customs and
ships to me.
If you think at any time that BL will be able to administer something like this,
ja well no fine.

It is of course the quickest way for a thing to go tits up if we allow a surface
mail parcel to be taxed at the point of sale and it only gets cleared through
customs 4 months later - who takes the forex risk, who takes he risk of the actual
costs being paid over etc etc?

Best of all, what are they going to do with in transit parcels on the day of
registration, if in fact they are registered? Better not to get involved in this
and just close those countries out.




In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 06:29
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 35 times
 Topic: Problem
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calsbricks (6604)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Aug 12, 2008 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: CalsBricks
In Problem, bje writes:
  Morning Bill

Did the EU not delay this until July 2021? And is the marketplace not defined
as making a taxable supply only when it does any of these things:

That is the official date when this is supposed to take effect, however the UK
leaves the custom union in Jan so BL are registering for vat in the UK then.
The rest of this silly regulation comes into effect in July as planned but the
UK will not fully support MOSS as it does now from Jan, hence their registration
(they are already registered with MOSS but that allows them to report in a non
uk way so from Jan they must use MTD for VAT in order to comply with UK law.
  
Controls the terms and conditions of the sale (BL does not, says so in the
ToS);
Authorises the charge to the customer in respect of the payment for the supply;
(Not either, not even for onsite)
and/or
Orders or delivers the goods. (most certainly not)

But, once they continue with it regardless, the short answer is that I'll
go the same route as with the USA - just stop shipping there or alternatively,
ship there only with a freight operator. Then I do not have to stress about this
nonsense and BL in my view not having the administrative capacity to deal with
this, viz the absence of VAT numbers on your invoices.

Can you imagine the absolute cock-up if a buyer asks me to provide him with proof
that the taxes and doc fees were in fact paid over so his parcel can clear through
customs? For me it is simply not good enough that they say they are doing a thing,
they must be able to provide the documentary proof. And of course it requires
tracking one very single consignment. That alone will probably kill most of the
exports anyway.

Note that the responsibility for the the tax is only once the goods arrive, not
before as the rate of exchange is set at the time of receipt in bond in the recipient
country. IF they have their wits about them and do it in that manner, then you
would not need to worry about the lost parcel refund and VAT business as there
would be no VAT if did not arrive. If they, however, start collection at the
point of invoice, you will have real problems. And for us VAT is a criminal matter
- every party to the transaction has to get all of the proper documentation else
there is a real problem (never mind the prudential reporting requirements for
forex controls).

Frankly, the requirement to do this, has been around for awhile as far as freight
operators go. Amazon has a method of collecting the tax at the same time as the
order is placed, but they ship by courier so there is no real time lag as the
full customs EDI goes through with the freight operator regardless. Amazon does
not ship using international postal services at all, in part because for postal
services this system is not operational yet. The move over to only require CN23's
and EDI for post offices is in process, but it is certainly not finalised in
a manner that you could introduce this easily.

My freight forwarder deals with this as follows:
I pay for the goods overseas in whatever currency, the goods are shipped to the
forwarder and placed in bond;
The invoice and other required documentation is delivered by me, the forwarder
assesses the cost of shipping, charges me in ZAR for the shipping cost and ships;
When they receive the goods in South Africa it is assessed for customs, doc fees,
excise duties and VAT using the currency rate at the time. This sis so becaue
the ACt says the taxable supply occurs only once the goods arrive at the border,
not before. All of these are only charged in excess of de minimis and in ZAR
for settlement at the time of their invoice.
I settle and they pay the taxes over, receives the parcel back from customs and
ships to me.
If you think at any time that BL will be able to administer something like this,
ja well no fine.

It is of course the quickest way for a thing to go tits up if we allow a surface
mail parcel to be taxed at the point of sale and it only gets cleared through
customs 4 months later - who takes the forex risk, who takes he risk of the actual
costs being paid over etc etc?

Best of all, what are they going to do with in transit parcels on the day of
registration, if in fact they are registered? Better not to get involved in this
and just close those countries out.




In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'

Hi Jean - you are certainly correct in your comments and along with the other
issues does need clarification from Bricklink or thier advisors. Lets see what
we get.
 Author: bje View Messages Posted By bje
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 07:13
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 22 times
 Topic: Problem
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bje (1488)

Location:  South Africa, Western Cape
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 24, 2010 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: JE Bricks
In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, bje writes:
  Morning Bill

Did the EU not delay this until July 2021? And is the marketplace not defined
as making a taxable supply only when it does any of these things:

That is the official date when this is supposed to take effect, however the UK
leaves the custom union in Jan so BL are registering for vat in the UK then.
The rest of this silly regulation comes into effect in July as planned but the
UK will not fully support MOSS as it does now from Jan, hence their registration
(they are already registered with MOSS but that allows them to report in a non
uk way so from Jan they must use MTD for VAT in order to comply with UK law.

Ah OK, so they can levy VAT on their fees only provided the fees are in excess
of the cut-off amount for registration and for which they will comply with all
your other domestic laws regarding the collection and payment of VAT on their
fees, including what must be on the invoice and the currency it must be collected
in etc etc. I wish you good luck in getting proper documentation from them.

It would be really weird if they levy VAT on the entire turnover including sellers'
turnover - I've never heard of any regulations where this is required except
for the marketplaces thing - which BL clearly is not. Unless, heaven forbid,
they are going roll out expee in full and then become the Amazon of BL parts
where they warehouse your inventory. But they've got enough other things
to focus on and fix first, so that should not be on their radar at all.
 Author: Rob_and_Shelagh View Messages Posted By Rob_and_Shelagh
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 05:52
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 56 times
 Topic: Problem
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Rob_and_Shelagh (23723)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Nov 3, 2005 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: YELLOW FARM BRICKS
In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'

Hi Bill,

I agree there seems to be a lot of confusion over this and it does need clarifying.

To BL Admins:- VAT is not a sales tax like in the USA (VAT stands for Value Added
Tax - a tax on the value added by a seller, not on the entire sales price if
the input costs are already VAT paid). UK Domestic sales from non-VAT registered
sellers SHOULD NOT be subject to VAT as in effect the sale price already includes
VAT (as the seller has already paid any VAT due on his purchases and has not
reclaimed it as he is not VAT registered). If VAT was charged on top of his prices
then in effect the consumer would be paying VAT twice! Yes, VAT can of course
be charged on Bricklink's fees to the seller because that is for providing
a service separate to the sale of the goods. In UK most small sellers are legally
not VAT registered as they do not meet the threashold requiring them to register
and as such they have to pay VAT on everything they buy from other (VAT registered)
sellers/suppliers and cannot (like VAT-registered sellers do) reclaim that VAT,
it is assumed to be passed on in their prices to the consumer so what the consumer
buys is in effect VAT paid.

If by registering for UK VAT "as a seller" BL is going to charge VAT on sales
from its non-VAT registered sellers then the VAT paid by those sellers on their
inventory and supplies (including BL fees, LOL) should be reclaimed from the
authorities otherwise it will have been collected twice. I really don't understand
how this could work, BL do not own the inventory or other overhead of their independent
sellers.

Please BL can you get your advisors to explain this to end the uncertainty caused
by this confusion.

Thanks,
Robert
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 06:31
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 25 times
 Topic: Problem
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calsbricks (6604)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Aug 12, 2008 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: CalsBricks
In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'

Hi Bill,

I agree there seems to be a lot of confusion over this and it does need clarifying.

To BL Admins:- VAT is not a sales tax like in the USA (VAT stands for Value Added
Tax - a tax on the value added by a seller, not on the entire sales price if
the input costs are already VAT paid). UK Domestic sales from non-VAT registered
sellers SHOULD NOT be subject to VAT as in effect the sale price already includes
VAT (as the seller has already paid any VAT due on his purchases and has not
reclaimed it as he is not VAT registered). If VAT was charged on top of his prices
then in effect the consumer would be paying VAT twice! Yes, VAT can of course
be charged on Bricklink's fees to the seller because that is for providing
a service separate to the sale of the goods. In UK most small sellers are legally
not VAT registered as they do not meet the threashold requiring them to register
and as such they have to pay VAT on everything they buy from other (VAT registered)
sellers/suppliers and cannot (like VAT-registered sellers do) reclaim that VAT,
it is assumed to be passed on in their prices to the consumer so what the consumer
buys is in effect VAT paid.

If by registering for UK VAT "as a seller" BL is going to charge VAT on sales
from its non-VAT registered sellers then the VAT paid by those sellers on their
inventory and supplies (including BL fees, LOL) should be reclaimed from the
authorities otherwise it will have been collected twice. I really don't understand
how this could work, BL do not own the inventory or other overhead of their independent
sellers.

Please BL can you get your advisors to explain this to end the uncertainty caused
by this confusion.

Thanks,
Robert

Hi Robert - trust you and the better half are keeping safe and well. +1 on your
comments. Has needed clarification since it was announced but we are now only
a few weeks away from them registering - so let's seee what develops.
 Author: Rob_and_Shelagh View Messages Posted By Rob_and_Shelagh
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 07:19
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 31 times
 Topic: Problem
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Rob_and_Shelagh (23723)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Nov 3, 2005 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: YELLOW FARM BRICKS
In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'

Hi Bill,

I agree there seems to be a lot of confusion over this and it does need clarifying.

To BL Admins:- VAT is not a sales tax like in the USA (VAT stands for Value Added
Tax - a tax on the value added by a seller, not on the entire sales price if
the input costs are already VAT paid). UK Domestic sales from non-VAT registered
sellers SHOULD NOT be subject to VAT as in effect the sale price already includes
VAT (as the seller has already paid any VAT due on his purchases and has not
reclaimed it as he is not VAT registered). If VAT was charged on top of his prices
then in effect the consumer would be paying VAT twice! Yes, VAT can of course
be charged on Bricklink's fees to the seller because that is for providing
a service separate to the sale of the goods. In UK most small sellers are legally
not VAT registered as they do not meet the threashold requiring them to register
and as such they have to pay VAT on everything they buy from other (VAT registered)
sellers/suppliers and cannot (like VAT-registered sellers do) reclaim that VAT,
it is assumed to be passed on in their prices to the consumer so what the consumer
buys is in effect VAT paid.

If by registering for UK VAT "as a seller" BL is going to charge VAT on sales
from its non-VAT registered sellers then the VAT paid by those sellers on their
inventory and supplies (including BL fees, LOL) should be reclaimed from the
authorities otherwise it will have been collected twice. I really don't understand
how this could work, BL do not own the inventory or other overhead of their independent
sellers.

Please BL can you get your advisors to explain this to end the uncertainty caused
by this confusion.

Thanks,
Robert

Hi Robert - trust you and the better half are keeping safe and well. +1 on your
comments. Has needed clarification since it was announced but we are now only
a few weeks away from them registering - so let's seee what develops.

Thanks Bill, yes both OK here. If they were to register and incorrectly deploy
VAT on our domestic sales we would unfortunately have to close the store while
HMRC got involved but hopefully some clarification will be forthcoming before
any such disaster. You would have thought the Lego company's finance department
would have communication with HMRC though and I suspect there is the not uncommon
lack of clear communication at the customer face here and all will become clearer
hopefully before the 11th hour.

Robert
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 07:23
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 23 times
 Topic: Problem
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calsbricks (6604)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Aug 12, 2008 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: CalsBricks
In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'

Hi Bill,

I agree there seems to be a lot of confusion over this and it does need clarifying.

To BL Admins:- VAT is not a sales tax like in the USA (VAT stands for Value Added
Tax - a tax on the value added by a seller, not on the entire sales price if
the input costs are already VAT paid). UK Domestic sales from non-VAT registered
sellers SHOULD NOT be subject to VAT as in effect the sale price already includes
VAT (as the seller has already paid any VAT due on his purchases and has not
reclaimed it as he is not VAT registered). If VAT was charged on top of his prices
then in effect the consumer would be paying VAT twice! Yes, VAT can of course
be charged on Bricklink's fees to the seller because that is for providing
a service separate to the sale of the goods. In UK most small sellers are legally
not VAT registered as they do not meet the threashold requiring them to register
and as such they have to pay VAT on everything they buy from other (VAT registered)
sellers/suppliers and cannot (like VAT-registered sellers do) reclaim that VAT,
it is assumed to be passed on in their prices to the consumer so what the consumer
buys is in effect VAT paid.

If by registering for UK VAT "as a seller" BL is going to charge VAT on sales
from its non-VAT registered sellers then the VAT paid by those sellers on their
inventory and supplies (including BL fees, LOL) should be reclaimed from the
authorities otherwise it will have been collected twice. I really don't understand
how this could work, BL do not own the inventory or other overhead of their independent
sellers.

Please BL can you get your advisors to explain this to end the uncertainty caused
by this confusion.

Thanks,
Robert

Hi Robert - trust you and the better half are keeping safe and well. +1 on your
comments. Has needed clarification since it was announced but we are now only
a few weeks away from them registering - so let's seee what develops.

Thanks Bill, yes both OK here. If they were to register and incorrectly deploy
VAT on our domestic sales we would unfortunately have to close the store while
HMRC got involved but hopefully some clarification will be forthcoming before
any such disaster. You would have thought the Lego company's finance department
would have communication with HMRC though and I suspect there is the not uncommon
lack of clear communication at the customer face here and all will become clearer
hopefully before the 11th hour.

Robert

I don't think any of us should hold our breath on that one - not if the past
is anything to go by.
 Author: tpr View Messages Posted By tpr
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 05:53
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 52 times
 Topic: Problem
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tpr (6786)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Oct 2, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: The Parts Resort
In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'



Hi

What happens with the payment (fees) to Paypal

Currently if i sell, Paypal take X amount as fees.

If VAT is added and Bricklink take this portion, who pays the extra Paypal fees
?
Do Bricklink take the VAT less a certain amount or do I have extra Paypal fees
to contend with?
 Author: Dino1 View Messages Posted By Dino1
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 06:15
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 36 times
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Dino1 (404)

Location:  Luxembourg
Member Since Contact Type Status
Oct 22, 2003 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: dino's world
In Problem, tpr writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'



Hi

What happens with the payment (fees) to Paypal

Currently if i sell, Paypal take X amount as fees.

If VAT is added and Bricklink take this portion, who pays the extra Paypal fees
?
Do Bricklink take the VAT less a certain amount or do I have extra Paypal fees
to contend with?


In another post, Admin Russell wrote: The seller bears these costs as business
costs.
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 06:33
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 21 times
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calsbricks (6604)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Aug 12, 2008 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: CalsBricks
In Problem, Dino1 writes:
  In Problem, tpr writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'



Hi

What happens with the payment (fees) to Paypal

Currently if i sell, Paypal take X amount as fees.

If VAT is added and Bricklink take this portion, who pays the extra Paypal fees
?
Do Bricklink take the VAT less a certain amount or do I have extra Paypal fees
to contend with?


In another post, Admin Russell wrote: The seller bears these costs as business
costs.

Correct - as much as I don't agree with it I can live with that if I have
to.
 Author: Bricks_NW_UK View Messages Posted By Bricks_NW_UK
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 06:16
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 48 times
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Bricks_NW_UK (586)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 28, 2016 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Bricks NW UK
Having discussed this with my companies VAT specialists when this first cropped
up, they advised me that BL were completely wrong to be considering adding VAT
on to invoices from non VAT Registered sellers. In fact thy stated it was illegal
to do so.

If you are register (and the threshold is quite high) VAT as noted above is paid
on sales and charged on invoices. The difference is paid to the authorities.
If you are not registered then when you purchase good you pay VAT but cannot
recover this. When you sell you CANNOT under any circumstances charge VAT. It
is illegal to charge it in that situation and could and will land you in trouble.

These rules are in place to help small businesses grow without the additional
burden to having to submit VAT payments.

Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe

Once BL are registered for VAT (and of course assuming they are going to turnover
the required minimum) then they can only charge on the fees they collect NOT
the whole invoice.

For what it is worth I think BL are getting this totally wrong and getting mixed
up with US Sales tax, which is totally different.
 Author: Rob_and_Shelagh View Messages Posted By Rob_and_Shelagh
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 06:29
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 36 times
 Topic: Problem
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Rob_and_Shelagh (23723)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Nov 3, 2005 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: YELLOW FARM BRICKS
In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  Having discussed this with my companies VAT specialists when this first cropped
up, they advised me that BL were completely wrong to be considering adding VAT
on to invoices from non VAT Registered sellers. In fact thy stated it was illegal
to do so.

If you are register (and the threshold is quite high) VAT as noted above is paid
on sales and charged on invoices. The difference is paid to the authorities.
If you are not registered then when you purchase good you pay VAT but cannot
recover this. When you sell you CANNOT under any circumstances charge VAT. It
is illegal to charge it in that situation and could and will land you in trouble.

These rules are in place to help small businesses grow without the additional
burden to having to submit VAT payments.

Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe

Once BL are registered for VAT (and of course assuming they are going to turnover
the required minimum) then they can only charge on the fees they collect NOT
the whole invoice.

For what it is worth I think BL are getting this totally wrong and getting mixed
up with US Sales tax, which is totally different.


+1, and put more concisely than I tried to Also I think the confusion is coming
from charging VAT on imported goods which is a different matter entirely than
domestic sales. If I buy something from an overseas seller then this will not
include UK VAT and that can either be collected on entry via customs (or via
RoyalMail as we usually do here) or as BL are trying to do here, charge it
on top of the sale and pay it to the authorities so it is VAT paid and no VAT
needs to be collected on import (and no collection fees have to be paid so that
sounds like a good idea to me (as long as it is not collected again on import
which is likely if the package does not show the correct information).

Robert
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 06:37
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 28 times
 Topic: Problem
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calsbricks (6604)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Aug 12, 2008 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: CalsBricks
In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  Having discussed this with my companies VAT specialists when this first cropped
up, they advised me that BL were completely wrong to be considering adding VAT
on to invoices from non VAT Registered sellers. In fact thy stated it was illegal
to do so.

If you are register (and the threshold is quite high) VAT as noted above is paid
on sales and charged on invoices. The difference is paid to the authorities.
If you are not registered then when you purchase good you pay VAT but cannot
recover this. When you sell you CANNOT under any circumstances charge VAT. It
is illegal to charge it in that situation and could and will land you in trouble.

These rules are in place to help small businesses grow without the additional
burden to having to submit VAT payments.

Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe

Once BL are registered for VAT (and of course assuming they are going to turnover
the required minimum) then they can only charge on the fees they collect NOT
the whole invoice.

For what it is worth I think BL are getting this totally wrong and getting mixed
up with US Sales tax, which is totally different.


+1, and put more concisely than I tried to Also I think the confusion is coming
from charging VAT on imported goods which is a different matter entirely than
domestic sales. If I buy something from an overseas seller then this will not
include UK VAT and that can either be collected on entry via customs (or via
RoyalMail as we usually do here) or as BL are trying to do here, charge it
on top of the sale and pay it to the authorities so it is VAT paid and no VAT
needs to be collected on import (and no collection fees have to be paid so that
sounds like a good idea to me (as long as it is not collected again on import
which is likely if the package does not show the correct information).

Robert

Understand where you are coming from on this but can you imagine the chaos/confusion
over this. Has it been paid - hasn't it - who is liable for it and on what
basis.

Me thinks there is a minefield out there.
 Author: Bricks_NW_UK View Messages Posted By Bricks_NW_UK
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 06:39
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 39 times
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Bricks_NW_UK (586)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 28, 2016 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Bricks NW UK
In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  Having discussed this with my companies VAT specialists when this first cropped
up, they advised me that BL were completely wrong to be considering adding VAT
on to invoices from non VAT Registered sellers. In fact thy stated it was illegal
to do so.

If you are register (and the threshold is quite high) VAT as noted above is paid
on sales and charged on invoices. The difference is paid to the authorities.
If you are not registered then when you purchase good you pay VAT but cannot
recover this. When you sell you CANNOT under any circumstances charge VAT. It
is illegal to charge it in that situation and could and will land you in trouble.

These rules are in place to help small businesses grow without the additional
burden to having to submit VAT payments.

Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe

Once BL are registered for VAT (and of course assuming they are going to turnover
the required minimum) then they can only charge on the fees they collect NOT
the whole invoice.

For what it is worth I think BL are getting this totally wrong and getting mixed
up with US Sales tax, which is totally different.


+1, and put more concisely than I tried to Also I think the confusion is coming
from charging VAT on imported goods which is a different matter entirely than
domestic sales. If I buy something from an overseas seller then this will not
include UK VAT and that can either be collected on entry via customs (or via
RoyalMail as we usually do here) or as BL are trying to do here, charge it
on top of the sale and pay it to the authorities so it is VAT paid and no VAT
needs to be collected on import (and no collection fees have to be paid so that
sounds like a good idea to me (as long as it is not collected again on import
which is likely if the package does not show the correct information).

Robert

I think the point is BL need to realise the UK domestic situation to unique compared
to the remainder of Europe. You simply cannot charge any VAT if you are VAT Registered.
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 06:34
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 29 times
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calsbricks (6604)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Aug 12, 2008 Contact Member Seller
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Store: CalsBricks
In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  Having discussed this with my companies VAT specialists when this first cropped
up, they advised me that BL were completely wrong to be considering adding VAT
on to invoices from non VAT Registered sellers. In fact thy stated it was illegal
to do so.

If you are register (and the threshold is quite high) VAT as noted above is paid
on sales and charged on invoices. The difference is paid to the authorities.
If you are not registered then when you purchase good you pay VAT but cannot
recover this. When you sell you CANNOT under any circumstances charge VAT. It
is illegal to charge it in that situation and could and will land you in trouble.

These rules are in place to help small businesses grow without the additional
burden to having to submit VAT payments.

Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe

Once BL are registered for VAT (and of course assuming they are going to turnover
the required minimum) then they can only charge on the fees they collect NOT
the whole invoice.

For what it is worth I think BL are getting this totally wrong and getting mixed
up with US Sales tax, which is totally different.

We have done the same, hence our confusion. Definitely needs clarification, quickly.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 07:28
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
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SylvainLS (36)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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BrickLink Discussions Moderator (?)
In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 07:34
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
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Teup (4961)

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Store Closed Store: BLOKJESKONING
In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Hah, you beat me to it, with 4 minutes
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 07:39
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
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calsbricks (6604)

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Store: CalsBricks
In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Yes they are and that will go even further after 1 Jan 2021.

They are the same principle as EU buy differ technically and practically.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 07:59
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
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SylvainLS (36)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Yes they are and that will go even further after 1 Jan 2021.

No they are not.

  They are the same principle as EU buy differ technically and practically.

You always say things are different but you never prove it.
No, different thresholds don’t make rules different.
No, using pounds instead of euros doesn’t make rules different.
Etc.
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 08:05
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
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calsbricks (6604)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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Store: CalsBricks
In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Yes they are and that will go even further after 1 Jan 2021.

No they are not.

  They are the same principle as EU buy differ technically and practically.

You always say things are different but you never prove it.
No, different thresholds don’t make rules different.
No, using pounds instead of euros doesn’t make rules different.
Etc.

We are not interested in getting into a discussion about the differences in vat
between the eu and uk - which will further move apart from 01 Jan 2021. We are
interested in getting clarification on the issues we raised in our original thread.
If you have comments pertaining to that we are willing to look at them other
wise start your own thread on VAT
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 08:19
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
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SylvainLS (36)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  […]
We are not interested in getting into a discussion about the differences in vat
between the eu and uk - which will further move apart from 01 Jan 2021. We are
interested in getting clarification on the issues we raised in our original thread.
If you have comments pertaining to that we are willing to look at them other
wise start your own thread on VAT

What I’m interested in is that you stop FUDing.
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 08:27
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 26 times
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calsbricks (6604)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  […]
We are not interested in getting into a discussion about the differences in vat
between the eu and uk - which will further move apart from 01 Jan 2021. We are
interested in getting clarification on the issues we raised in our original thread.
If you have comments pertaining to that we are willing to look at them other
wise start your own thread on VAT

What I’m interested in is that you stop FUDing.

No such word as fuding -
 Author: Classicsmiley View Messages Posted By Classicsmiley
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 17:45
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 46 times
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Classicsmiley (265)

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In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  […]
We are not interested in getting into a discussion about the differences in vat
between the eu and uk - which will further move apart from 01 Jan 2021. We are
interested in getting clarification on the issues we raised in our original thread.
If you have comments pertaining to that we are willing to look at them other
wise start your own thread on VAT

What I’m interested in is that you stop FUDing.

No such word as fuding -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt

https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1993/01/25
 
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 21:14
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 54 times
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calsbricks (6604)

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In Problem, Classicsmiley writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  […]
We are not interested in getting into a discussion about the differences in vat
between the eu and uk - which will further move apart from 01 Jan 2021. We are
interested in getting clarification on the issues we raised in our original thread.
If you have comments pertaining to that we are willing to look at them other
wise start your own thread on VAT

What I’m interested in is that you stop FUDing.

No such word as fuding -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt

You really 'cannot be serious'
  
https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1993/01/25


Always good for a laugh - funny how proper dictionaries do not include the word
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 07:42
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 44 times
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calsbricks (6604)

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In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Your comments do not address the issue raised in the original thread which need
answers. Perhaps you would like to start your own thread on VAT.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 07:59
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
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SylvainLS (36)

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In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Your comments do not address the issue raised in the original thread which need
answers. Perhaps you would like to start your own thread on VAT.

All this has already been debunked several times over, in other threads or subthreads
you started.  Go reread them.
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 08:11
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 23 times
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calsbricks (6604)

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In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Your comments do not address the issue raised in the original thread which need
answers. Perhaps you would like to start your own thread on VAT.

All this has already been debunked several times over, in other threads or subthreads
you started.  Go reread them.

Absolute rubbish - there are no answers to the original thread we posted.

You are out of order. Prove there is a single response from BL regarding what
happens with vat and refunds on lost orders. There isn't one, hence our query.
Why don't you leave these kind of threads to the people who know what they
are talking about and have concerns rather than putting your gibberish into them.

Or you might try to actually open a store and look at the consequences.
 Author: Rob_and_Shelagh View Messages Posted By Rob_and_Shelagh
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 08:25
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 45 times
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Rob_and_Shelagh (23723)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Your comments do not address the issue raised in the original thread which need
answers. Perhaps you would like to start your own thread on VAT.

All this has already been debunked several times over, in other threads or subthreads
you started.  Go reread them.

Hi Sylvain, yes you are right this has been discussed before but the OP and me
and others are still waiting for clarification from BL on this and are simply
asking them - I have looked, I can't find clear answers in the forum. I don't
care if the VAT rules in UK are the same, similar, different of whatever to those
in other European countries, I just want to know details of how this is going
to work here in the UK for my store as it has significant implications on not
only accounting and legal tax returns but also on business decisions for us given
my understanding of my country's tax laws. Please have just a little respect
for us not knowing all the answers and requesting some assistance from BL and
a little more patience with us instead of dismissing our concerns as FUD, this
is not the 1st time you have treated us with this sort of response. If you know
all the answers for you, in your country great, I wish I could say the same.
Bill's message was to BL Admins and my responses were also directed at BL
Admins, I would like a response from them. What you see here is frustration from
small businesses being in the dark. I cannot just wake up one morning to find
things have changed and I am not compliant, we'd simply have to close if
that happened. If that happens we'll likely go somewhere else to sell, I
don't want that.

Thanks for your understanding
Robert
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 08:56
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 25 times
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In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Your comments do not address the issue raised in the original thread which need
answers. Perhaps you would like to start your own thread on VAT.

All this has already been debunked several times over, in other threads or subthreads
you started.  Go reread them.

Hi Sylvain, yes you are right this has been discussed before but the OP and me
and others are still waiting for clarification from BL on this and are simply
asking them - I have looked, I can't find clear answers in the forum. I don't
care if the VAT rules in UK are the same, similar, different of whatever to those
in other European countries, I just want to know details of how this is going
to work here in the UK for my store as it has significant implications on not
only accounting and legal tax returns but also on business decisions for us given
my understanding of my country's tax laws. Please have just a little respect
for us not knowing all the answers and requesting some assistance from BL and
a little more patience with us instead of dismissing our concerns as FUD, this
is not the 1st time you have treated us with this sort of response. If you know
all the answers for you, in your country great, I wish I could say the same.
Bill's message was to BL Admins and my responses were also directed at BL
Admins, I would like a response from them. What you see here is frustration from
small businesses being in the dark. I cannot just wake up one morning to find
things have changed and I am not compliant, we'd simply have to close if
that happened. If that happens we'll likely go somewhere else to sell, I
don't want that.

Thanks for your understanding
Robert

Thanks Robert - we, like you want answers not a fight over VAT rules and we could
not care less if they are the same or different as outside the UK does not apply
to us.
 Author: Rob_and_Shelagh View Messages Posted By Rob_and_Shelagh
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 09:17
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 35 times
 Topic: Problem
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Rob_and_Shelagh (23723)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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Store: YELLOW FARM BRICKS
In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Your comments do not address the issue raised in the original thread which need
answers. Perhaps you would like to start your own thread on VAT.

All this has already been debunked several times over, in other threads or subthreads
you started.  Go reread them.

Hi Sylvain, yes you are right this has been discussed before but the OP and me
and others are still waiting for clarification from BL on this and are simply
asking them - I have looked, I can't find clear answers in the forum. I don't
care if the VAT rules in UK are the same, similar, different of whatever to those
in other European countries, I just want to know details of how this is going
to work here in the UK for my store as it has significant implications on not
only accounting and legal tax returns but also on business decisions for us given
my understanding of my country's tax laws. Please have just a little respect
for us not knowing all the answers and requesting some assistance from BL and
a little more patience with us instead of dismissing our concerns as FUD, this
is not the 1st time you have treated us with this sort of response. If you know
all the answers for you, in your country great, I wish I could say the same.
Bill's message was to BL Admins and my responses were also directed at BL
Admins, I would like a response from them. What you see here is frustration from
small businesses being in the dark. I cannot just wake up one morning to find
things have changed and I am not compliant, we'd simply have to close if
that happened. If that happens we'll likely go somewhere else to sell, I
don't want that.

Thanks for your understanding
Robert

Thanks Robert - we, like you want answers not a fight over VAT rules and we could
not care less if they are the same or different as outside the UK does not apply
to us.

Maybe the forum is part of the problem here. So many issue are only relevant
to a small subset of the community. For those who don't have a problem with
this please just ignore us.

Admin, we really DO need guidance on stuff like this before it is deployed and
maybe the forum is not the place to deploy it, how many UK sellers are not even
aware of any of this going on? Suggestion - if plans for a change in VAT handling
are finalised and going to be implemented in UK please write to all UK sellers
via email explaining in detail how it is going to work. There will be questions
from this, please give us an email address where we can send them. Note - if
the bottom line really is putting VAT on top of our already VAT paid domestic
prices then you will be making BL 20% more expensive than ebay, BO, etc for UK
domestic buyers with obvious implications for BL, this is of course the big issue
here.

Thanks,
Robert
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 10:03
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 35 times
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SylvainLS (36)

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In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  […]
Hi Sylvain, yes you are right this has been discussed before but the OP and me
and others are still waiting for clarification from BL on this and are simply
asking them - I have looked, I can't find clear answers in the forum. I don't
care if the VAT rules in UK are the same, similar, different of whatever to those
in other European countries, I just want to know details of how this is going
to work here in the UK for my store as it has significant implications on not
only accounting and legal tax returns but also on business decisions for us given
my understanding of my country's tax laws. Please have just a little respect
for us not knowing all the answers and requesting some assistance from BL and
a little more patience with us instead of dismissing our concerns as FUD, this
is not the 1st time you have treated us with this sort of response. If you know
all the answers for you, in your country great, I wish I could say the same.
Bill's message was to BL Admins and my responses were also directed at BL
Admins, I would like a response from them. What you see here is frustration from
small businesses being in the dark. I cannot just wake up one morning to find
things have changed and I am not compliant, we'd simply have to close if
that happened. If that happens we'll likely go somewhere else to sell, I
don't want that.

Thanks for your understanding
Robert

I never said I knew everything.  But when something has been proven to me, I
stop saying the opposite.

What irks me in these threads is that even though there’s genuine concerns and
questions, they are always surrounded by willful confusions and disingenuous
summaries.
Yes, willful and disingenuous because they have been clarified several times.

Example: “The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start charging
and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU.”

That’s true, but also completely false.  The plan is to collect VAT on imports,
in accordance to UK laws.  (At least, now, Calsbricks adds that it’s the fault
of the lawmakers, not a lunacy of BL’s.  Took a bit of repeating to manage that.)

It’s way more efficient to skip that bit in order to raise outrage and lengthy
discourses on “we’re different, we’re not VAT-registered, we are forbidden to
collect VAT.”

And don’t say it’s not what’s happening: that’s the main part of your own answer.

No, you’re not VAT-registered, yes, you’re forbidden to collect VAT, but when
you import something in the UK, you have to pay import VAT.  That has not changed
and it won’t change.  (UK won’t abandon VAT on January 1st.)
And when you’ll sell to EU buyers after July 1st, your EU buyers will have to
pay EU VAT, and BL will collect that.  The same way BL will collect EU VAT when
an EU buyer buys (for less than €150) from a seller in the USA, China, Japan,
Australia….
And that have been said several times.  So why rekindle the “BL will collect
VAT on everything” FUD?  And why step into it if you read the other threads where
it was already explained?


And if BL is registering for VAT in UK, it’s for the same reasons they did it
in UE: because they need to in regards to their current activities, maybe because
it’ll be simpler to manage the marketplace thing, but not because they will become
a seller and start chargeing VAT willy-nilly.

BL is (at last) observing the laws.  BL is setting a moral foot in the UK.  So
why do you think BL has become mad and will make 99% of their UK sellers outlaws
or bankrupt?  You think they’ll replace you with cheaply-paid minifigures or
brick-made automatons?


I understand genuine fears, uncertainties and doubts.  I don’t understand burying
them under fake ones.

The questions about refunds, or delays, or fees are genuine concerns.  But though
Sales taxes are different from VAT in some aspects (e.g. they have exemptions,
we have registration), a lot of their respective mechanisms are actually the
same, especially with these new marketplace laws.  And as you can see how it
works for Sales taxes (Onsite payments and the new refund mechanism), you can
surmise it will work the same with VAT.
But even then, yes, I understand you’d want more details on that.  What I also
understand is that you won’t get them if you start, develop and finish with unrelated
concerns, wrong statements and unsubstantiated claims.


Yes, there’s a lack of communication, a lack of documentation and some problems
(invoices and VAT ID…).  The experts BL consults say one thing, and maybe the
BL developpers do another, or maybe they do what the experts said but, in the
end, BL users don’t understand what’s exactly happening or what will happen. 
I get that.
What I don’t get is the same participants borrowing the same fears that have
already been assuaged.
Again, to me, that can only be willful and disingenuous.

Sincerely,
Sylvain
 Author: Bricks_NW_UK View Messages Posted By Bricks_NW_UK
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 10:13
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 36 times
 Topic: Problem
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Bricks_NW_UK (586)

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In Problem, SylvainLS writes:That’s true, but also completely false. The
plan is to collect VAT on imports,
in accordance to UK laws. (At least, now, Calsbricks adds that it’s the fault
of the lawmakers, not a lunacy of BL’s. Took a bit of repeating to manage that.)


If that is the case are they not duplicating what Royal Mail and other carriers
already do which is charge the recipient VAT on the value of the parcel plus
a customs charge?
 Author: Rob_and_Shelagh View Messages Posted By Rob_and_Shelagh
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 10:38
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 50 times
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Store: YELLOW FARM BRICKS
In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  […]
Hi Sylvain, yes you are right this has been discussed before but the OP and me
and others are still waiting for clarification from BL on this and are simply
asking them - I have looked, I can't find clear answers in the forum. I don't
care if the VAT rules in UK are the same, similar, different of whatever to those
in other European countries, I just want to know details of how this is going
to work here in the UK for my store as it has significant implications on not
only accounting and legal tax returns but also on business decisions for us given
my understanding of my country's tax laws. Please have just a little respect
for us not knowing all the answers and requesting some assistance from BL and
a little more patience with us instead of dismissing our concerns as FUD, this
is not the 1st time you have treated us with this sort of response. If you know
all the answers for you, in your country great, I wish I could say the same.
Bill's message was to BL Admins and my responses were also directed at BL
Admins, I would like a response from them. What you see here is frustration from
small businesses being in the dark. I cannot just wake up one morning to find
things have changed and I am not compliant, we'd simply have to close if
that happened. If that happens we'll likely go somewhere else to sell, I
don't want that.

Thanks for your understanding
Robert

I never said I knew everything.  But when something has been proven to me, I
stop saying the opposite.

What irks me in these threads is that even though there’s genuine concerns and
questions, they are always surrounded by willful confusions and disingenuous
summaries.
Yes, willful and disingenuous because they have been clarified several times.

Example: “The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start charging
and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU.”

That’s true, but also completely false.  The plan is to collect VAT on imports,
in accordance to UK laws.  (At least, now, Calsbricks adds that it’s the fault
of the lawmakers, not a lunacy of BL’s.  Took a bit of repeating to manage that.)

It’s way more efficient to skip that bit in order to raise outrage and lengthy
discourses on “we’re different, we’re not VAT-registered, we are forbidden to
collect VAT.”

And don’t say it’s not what’s happening: that’s the main part of your own answer.

No, you’re not VAT-registered, yes, you’re forbidden to collect VAT, but when
you import something in the UK, you have to pay import VAT.  That has not changed
and it won’t change.  (UK won’t abandon VAT on January 1st.)
And when you’ll sell to EU buyers after July 1st, your EU buyers will have to
pay EU VAT, and BL will collect that.  The same way BL will collect EU VAT when
an EU buyer buys (for less than €150) from a seller in the USA, China, Japan,
Australia….
And that have been said several times.  So why rekindle the “BL will collect
VAT on everything” FUD?  And why step into it if you read the other threads where
it was already explained?


And if BL is registering for VAT in UK, it’s for the same reasons they did it
in UE: because they need to in regards to their current activities, maybe because
it’ll be simpler to manage the marketplace thing, but not because they will become
a seller and start chargeing VAT willy-nilly.

BL is (at last) observing the laws.  BL is setting a moral foot in the UK.  So
why do you think BL has become mad and will make 99% of their UK sellers outlaws
or bankrupt?  You think they’ll replace you with cheaply-paid minifigures or
brick-made automatons?


I understand genuine fears, uncertainties and doubts.  I don’t understand burying
them under fake ones.

The questions about refunds, or delays, or fees are genuine concerns.  But though
Sales taxes are different from VAT in some aspects (e.g. they have exemptions,
we have registration), a lot of their respective mechanisms are actually the
same, especially with these new marketplace laws.  And as you can see how it
works for Sales taxes (Onsite payments and the new refund mechanism), you can
surmise it will work the same with VAT.
But even then, yes, I understand you’d want more details on that.  What I also
understand is that you won’t get them if you start, develop and finish with unrelated
concerns, wrong statements and unsubstantiated claims.


Yes, there’s a lack of communication, a lack of documentation and some problems
(invoices and VAT ID…).  The experts BL consults say one thing, and maybe the
BL developpers do another, or maybe they do what the experts said but, in the
end, BL users don’t understand what’s exactly happening or what will happen. 
I get that.
What I don’t get is the same participants borrowing the same fears that have
already been assuaged.
Again, to me, that can only be willful and disingenuous.

Sincerely,
Sylvain

Hi Sylvain, thanks for the response. The fact that we are still asking questions
means we don't understand everything we feel we need to. Some of what you
stated above helps but does not fully resolve our ignorance, we feel the need
for BL to explain it further. I have regularly read comments from others about
VAT being on all sales not just imports, it is not just me who doesn't seem
to have an official answer on this. We don't appreciate some of your shorter
responses that show somewhat of a disregard for the frustations seen by others
especially when your title says forum moderator. Perhaps you understand better
than we/others do about these changes but I really am offended by the use of
the term "FUD", if we write something that turns out to be unfounded, that is
because we did not understand, not because we wanted to write some crap. This
comment "What I don’t get is the same participants borrowing the same fears that
have already been assuaged. Again, to me, that can only be willful and disingenuous"
shows a lack of understanding for the fact that however well you might think
these issues have been discussed, to us and others, those fears have not been
answered which says something about communication from the site (or lack of intelligence
of users but if we were all top level business people we'd probably be doing
something else). Hey, just some patience and respect to all goes a long way.
We are trying to get to grips with the implications of these changes, I've
got better things to do than type this stuff just for the hell of it anyway.

No bad feelings!
Robert
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 11:08
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 36 times
 Topic: Problem
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In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  […]
Hi Sylvain, yes you are right this has been discussed before but the OP and me
and others are still waiting for clarification from BL on this and are simply
asking them - I have looked, I can't find clear answers in the forum. I don't
care if the VAT rules in UK are the same, similar, different of whatever to those
in other European countries, I just want to know details of how this is going
to work here in the UK for my store as it has significant implications on not
only accounting and legal tax returns but also on business decisions for us given
my understanding of my country's tax laws. Please have just a little respect
for us not knowing all the answers and requesting some assistance from BL and
a little more patience with us instead of dismissing our concerns as FUD, this
is not the 1st time you have treated us with this sort of response. If you know
all the answers for you, in your country great, I wish I could say the same.
Bill's message was to BL Admins and my responses were also directed at BL
Admins, I would like a response from them. What you see here is frustration from
small businesses being in the dark. I cannot just wake up one morning to find
things have changed and I am not compliant, we'd simply have to close if
that happened. If that happens we'll likely go somewhere else to sell, I
don't want that.

Thanks for your understanding
Robert

I never said I knew everything.  But when something has been proven to me, I
stop saying the opposite.

What irks me in these threads is that even though there’s genuine concerns and
questions, they are always surrounded by willful confusions and disingenuous
summaries.
Yes, willful and disingenuous because they have been clarified several times.

Example: “The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start charging
and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU.”

That’s true, but also completely false.  The plan is to collect VAT on imports,
in accordance to UK laws.  (At least, now, Calsbricks adds that it’s the fault
of the lawmakers, not a lunacy of BL’s.  Took a bit of repeating to manage that.)

It’s way more efficient to skip that bit in order to raise outrage and lengthy
discourses on “we’re different, we’re not VAT-registered, we are forbidden to
collect VAT.”

And don’t say it’s not what’s happening: that’s the main part of your own answer.

No, you’re not VAT-registered, yes, you’re forbidden to collect VAT, but when
you import something in the UK, you have to pay import VAT.  That has not changed
and it won’t change.  (UK won’t abandon VAT on January 1st.)
And when you’ll sell to EU buyers after July 1st, your EU buyers will have to
pay EU VAT, and BL will collect that.  The same way BL will collect EU VAT when
an EU buyer buys (for less than €150) from a seller in the USA, China, Japan,
Australia….
And that have been said several times.  So why rekindle the “BL will collect
VAT on everything” FUD?  And why step into it if you read the other threads where
it was already explained?


And if BL is registering for VAT in UK, it’s for the same reasons they did it
in UE: because they need to in regards to their current activities, maybe because
it’ll be simpler to manage the marketplace thing, but not because they will become
a seller and start chargeing VAT willy-nilly.

BL is (at last) observing the laws.  BL is setting a moral foot in the UK.  So
why do you think BL has become mad and will make 99% of their UK sellers outlaws
or bankrupt?  You think they’ll replace you with cheaply-paid minifigures or
brick-made automatons?


I understand genuine fears, uncertainties and doubts.  I don’t understand burying
them under fake ones.

The questions about refunds, or delays, or fees are genuine concerns.  But though
Sales taxes are different from VAT in some aspects (e.g. they have exemptions,
we have registration), a lot of their respective mechanisms are actually the
same, especially with these new marketplace laws.  And as you can see how it
works for Sales taxes (Onsite payments and the new refund mechanism), you can
surmise it will work the same with VAT.
But even then, yes, I understand you’d want more details on that.  What I also
understand is that you won’t get them if you start, develop and finish with unrelated
concerns, wrong statements and unsubstantiated claims.


Yes, there’s a lack of communication, a lack of documentation and some problems
(invoices and VAT ID…).  The experts BL consults say one thing, and maybe the
BL developpers do another, or maybe they do what the experts said but, in the
end, BL users don’t understand what’s exactly happening or what will happen. 
I get that.
What I don’t get is the same participants borrowing the same fears that have
already been assuaged.
Again, to me, that can only be willful and disingenuous.

Sincerely,
Sylvain

Hi Sylvain, thanks for the response. The fact that we are still asking questions
means we don't understand everything we feel we need to. Some of what you
stated above helps but does not fully resolve our ignorance, we feel the need
for BL to explain it further. I have regularly read comments from others about
VAT being on all sales not just imports, it is not just me who doesn't seem
to have an official answer on this. We don't appreciate some of your shorter
responses that show somewhat of a disregard for the frustations seen by others
especially when your title says forum moderator. Perhaps you understand better
than we/others do about these changes but I really am offended by the use of
the term "FUD", if we write something that turns out to be unfounded, that is
because we did not understand, not because we wanted to write some crap. This
comment "What I don’t get is the same participants borrowing the same fears that
have already been assuaged. Again, to me, that can only be willful and disingenuous"
shows a lack of understanding for the fact that however well you might think
these issues have been discussed, to us and others, those fears have not been
answered which says something about communication from the site (or lack of intelligence
of users but if we were all top level business people we'd probably be doing
something else). Hey, just some patience and respect to all goes a long way.
We are trying to get to grips with the implications of these changes, I've
got better things to do than type this stuff just for the hell of it anyway.

No bad feelings!
Robert

Well said Robert - we also have better things to do than debate with Sylvain
- we asked for BL admin to respond not the forum moderator and that is where
we would like our answer to come from - that clarification will help and hopefully
it will also solve the mystery of where the contract lies when a buyer purchases
from your store. At the moment it is between the buyer and the store. Bringing
a 3rd party into it changes the dimensions of the 'deal' and it needs
to be clear where all the responsibilities lie. I would say that legally the
buyer must be made aware of the contract being tripartite and a clear statement
of where responsibilities lie, but there are those who would argue that the contract
is only between the store and buyer.

Lots and lots of clarification is needed which was the point of our original
thread (nothing to do with the differences between eu/uk vat). That is Sylvain's
hobby horse not ours.
 Author: pitz8008 View Messages Posted By pitz8008
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 11:16
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 37 times
 Topic: Problem
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pitz8008 (9287)

Location:  USA, Illinois
Member Since Contact Type Status
Dec 30, 2009 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: 0 The Pitz Playhouse
In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  […]
Hi Sylvain, yes you are right this has been discussed before but the OP and me
and others are still waiting for clarification from BL on this and are simply
asking them - I have looked, I can't find clear answers in the forum. I don't
care if the VAT rules in UK are the same, similar, different of whatever to those
in other European countries, I just want to know details of how this is going
to work here in the UK for my store as it has significant implications on not
only accounting and legal tax returns but also on business decisions for us given
my understanding of my country's tax laws. Please have just a little respect
for us not knowing all the answers and requesting some assistance from BL and
a little more patience with us instead of dismissing our concerns as FUD, this
is not the 1st time you have treated us with this sort of response. If you know
all the answers for you, in your country great, I wish I could say the same.
Bill's message was to BL Admins and my responses were also directed at BL
Admins, I would like a response from them. What you see here is frustration from
small businesses being in the dark. I cannot just wake up one morning to find
things have changed and I am not compliant, we'd simply have to close if
that happened. If that happens we'll likely go somewhere else to sell, I
don't want that.

Thanks for your understanding
Robert

I never said I knew everything.  But when something has been proven to me, I
stop saying the opposite.

What irks me in these threads is that even though there’s genuine concerns and
questions, they are always surrounded by willful confusions and disingenuous
summaries.
Yes, willful and disingenuous because they have been clarified several times.

Example: “The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start charging
and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU.”

That’s true, but also completely false.  The plan is to collect VAT on imports,
in accordance to UK laws.  (At least, now, Calsbricks adds that it’s the fault
of the lawmakers, not a lunacy of BL’s.  Took a bit of repeating to manage that.)

It’s way more efficient to skip that bit in order to raise outrage and lengthy
discourses on “we’re different, we’re not VAT-registered, we are forbidden to
collect VAT.”

And don’t say it’s not what’s happening: that’s the main part of your own answer.

No, you’re not VAT-registered, yes, you’re forbidden to collect VAT, but when
you import something in the UK, you have to pay import VAT.  That has not changed
and it won’t change.  (UK won’t abandon VAT on January 1st.)
And when you’ll sell to EU buyers after July 1st, your EU buyers will have to
pay EU VAT, and BL will collect that.  The same way BL will collect EU VAT when
an EU buyer buys (for less than €150) from a seller in the USA, China, Japan,
Australia….
And that have been said several times.  So why rekindle the “BL will collect
VAT on everything” FUD?  And why step into it if you read the other threads where
it was already explained?


And if BL is registering for VAT in UK, it’s for the same reasons they did it
in UE: because they need to in regards to their current activities, maybe because
it’ll be simpler to manage the marketplace thing, but not because they will become
a seller and start chargeing VAT willy-nilly.

BL is (at last) observing the laws.  BL is setting a moral foot in the UK.  So
why do you think BL has become mad and will make 99% of their UK sellers outlaws
or bankrupt?  You think they’ll replace you with cheaply-paid minifigures or
brick-made automatons?


I understand genuine fears, uncertainties and doubts.  I don’t understand burying
them under fake ones.

The questions about refunds, or delays, or fees are genuine concerns.  But though
Sales taxes are different from VAT in some aspects (e.g. they have exemptions,
we have registration), a lot of their respective mechanisms are actually the
same, especially with these new marketplace laws.  And as you can see how it
works for Sales taxes (Onsite payments and the new refund mechanism), you can
surmise it will work the same with VAT.
But even then, yes, I understand you’d want more details on that.  What I also
understand is that you won’t get them if you start, develop and finish with unrelated
concerns, wrong statements and unsubstantiated claims.


Yes, there’s a lack of communication, a lack of documentation and some problems
(invoices and VAT ID…).  The experts BL consults say one thing, and maybe the
BL developpers do another, or maybe they do what the experts said but, in the
end, BL users don’t understand what’s exactly happening or what will happen. 
I get that.
What I don’t get is the same participants borrowing the same fears that have
already been assuaged.
Again, to me, that can only be willful and disingenuous.

Sincerely,
Sylvain

Hi Sylvain, thanks for the response. The fact that we are still asking questions
means we don't understand everything we feel we need to. Some of what you
stated above helps but does not fully resolve our ignorance, we feel the need
for BL to explain it further. I have regularly read comments from others about
VAT being on all sales not just imports, it is not just me who doesn't seem
to have an official answer on this. We don't appreciate some of your shorter
responses that show somewhat of a disregard for the frustations seen by others
especially when your title says forum moderator. Perhaps you understand better
than we/others do about these changes but I really am offended by the use of
the term "FUD", if we write something that turns out to be unfounded, that is
because we did not understand, not because we wanted to write some crap. This
comment "What I don’t get is the same participants borrowing the same fears that
have already been assuaged. Again, to me, that can only be willful and disingenuous"
shows a lack of understanding for the fact that however well you might think
these issues have been discussed, to us and others, those fears have not been
answered which says something about communication from the site (or lack of intelligence
of users but if we were all top level business people we'd probably be doing
something else). Hey, just some patience and respect to all goes a long way.
We are trying to get to grips with the implications of these changes, I've
got better things to do than type this stuff just for the hell of it anyway.

No bad feelings!
Robert


Maybe it's just me, but I really don't think the Bricklink Discussions
Moderator should be debating, argumentative, and condescending to Bricklink members
asking questions and having a discussion. Take it from Chris Wallace, that's
not the way to moderate.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 12:07
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 67 times
 Topic: Problem
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SylvainLS (36)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: BuyerOnly
BrickLink Discussions Moderator (?)
In Problem, pitz8008 writes:
  […]
Maybe it's just me, but I really don't think the Bricklink Discussions
Moderator

Not “the,” “a.”


  should be debating, argumentative, and condescending to Bricklink members
asking questions and having a discussion. Take it from Chris Wallace, that's
not the way to moderate.

In becoming a forum moderator, I did not resign from being a BLer and being able
to participate in discussions as a private person.
I know my ID card shows Discussions Moderator but I can’t switch that off.
I’d also note that I signed my answer to Robert as “Sylvain,” not as “Discussions
Moderator.”

Anyway, I thought it was clear when my DM hat is on or off: I did not talk about
forum rules.  I did not cancel, threaten to cancel any message or warn anyone
about pending measures or whatever.  I just answered as a forumer who has read
too many times the same things.
I now realize it’s not that clear.  I’ll try to make it clearer in the future.

Sylvain, a DM saying he’s not an active DM in this thread.
 Author: popsicle View Messages Posted By popsicle
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 12:27
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 76 times
 Topic: Problem
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popsicle (5919)

Location:  USA, Washington
Member Since Contact Type Status
Feb 21, 2006 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: ConstrucToys
In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  […]
Hi Sylvain, yes you are right this has been discussed before but the OP and me
and others are still waiting for clarification from BL on this and are simply
asking them - I have looked, I can't find clear answers in the forum. I don't
care if the VAT rules in UK are the same, similar, different of whatever to those
in other European countries, I just want to know details of how this is going
to work here in the UK for my store as it has significant implications on not
only accounting and legal tax returns but also on business decisions for us given
my understanding of my country's tax laws. Please have just a little respect
for us not knowing all the answers and requesting some assistance from BL and
a little more patience with us instead of dismissing our concerns as FUD, this
is not the 1st time you have treated us with this sort of response. If you know
all the answers for you, in your country great, I wish I could say the same.
Bill's message was to BL Admins and my responses were also directed at BL
Admins, I would like a response from them. What you see here is frustration from
small businesses being in the dark. I cannot just wake up one morning to find
things have changed and I am not compliant, we'd simply have to close if
that happened. If that happens we'll likely go somewhere else to sell, I
don't want that.

Thanks for your understanding
Robert

I never said I knew everything.  But when something has been proven to me, I
stop saying the opposite.

What irks me in these threads is that even though there’s genuine concerns and
questions, they are always surrounded by willful confusions and disingenuous
summaries.
Yes, willful and disingenuous because they have been clarified several times.

Example: “The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start charging
and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU.”

That’s true, but also completely false.  The plan is to collect VAT on imports,
in accordance to UK laws.  (At least, now, Calsbricks adds that it’s the fault
of the lawmakers, not a lunacy of BL’s.  Took a bit of repeating to manage that.)

It’s way more efficient to skip that bit in order to raise outrage and lengthy
discourses on “we’re different, we’re not VAT-registered, we are forbidden to
collect VAT.”

And don’t say it’s not what’s happening: that’s the main part of your own answer.

No, you’re not VAT-registered, yes, you’re forbidden to collect VAT, but when
you import something in the UK, you have to pay import VAT.  That has not changed
and it won’t change.  (UK won’t abandon VAT on January 1st.)
And when you’ll sell to EU buyers after July 1st, your EU buyers will have to
pay EU VAT, and BL will collect that.  The same way BL will collect EU VAT when
an EU buyer buys (for less than €150) from a seller in the USA, China, Japan,
Australia….
And that have been said several times.  So why rekindle the “BL will collect
VAT on everything” FUD?  And why step into it if you read the other threads where
it was already explained?


And if BL is registering for VAT in UK, it’s for the same reasons they did it
in UE: because they need to in regards to their current activities, maybe because
it’ll be simpler to manage the marketplace thing, but not because they will become
a seller and start chargeing VAT willy-nilly.

BL is (at last) observing the laws.  BL is setting a moral foot in the UK.  So
why do you think BL has become mad and will make 99% of their UK sellers outlaws
or bankrupt?  You think they’ll replace you with cheaply-paid minifigures or
brick-made automatons?


I understand genuine fears, uncertainties and doubts.  I don’t understand burying
them under fake ones.

The questions about refunds, or delays, or fees are genuine concerns.  But though
Sales taxes are different from VAT in some aspects (e.g. they have exemptions,
we have registration), a lot of their respective mechanisms are actually the
same, especially with these new marketplace laws.  And as you can see how it
works for Sales taxes (Onsite payments and the new refund mechanism), you can
surmise it will work the same with VAT.
But even then, yes, I understand you’d want more details on that.  What I also
understand is that you won’t get them if you start, develop and finish with unrelated
concerns, wrong statements and unsubstantiated claims.


Yes, there’s a lack of communication, a lack of documentation and some problems
(invoices and VAT ID…).  The experts BL consults say one thing, and maybe the
BL developpers do another, or maybe they do what the experts said but, in the
end, BL users don’t understand what’s exactly happening or what will happen. 
I get that.
What I don’t get is the same participants borrowing the same fears that have
already been assuaged.
Again, to me, that can only be willful and disingenuous.

Sincerely,
Sylvain

Hi Sylvain, thanks for the response. The fact that we are still asking questions
means we don't understand everything we feel we need to. Some of what you
stated above helps but does not fully resolve our ignorance, we feel the need
for BL to explain it further. I have regularly read comments from others about
VAT being on all sales not just imports, it is not just me who doesn't seem
to have an official answer on this.

  We don't appreciate some of your shorter responses that show somewhat of a disregard for the frustations seen by others especially when your title says forum moderator.

I had wondered how Sylvain, when accepting the volunteer post, would feel about
giving up his free reign of expression? How would he cope with the restricting
of something that seems as essential as breathing for a Sylvain? I also thought
that in throttling that ability, he might at some point find it too hard to breath
around here. That would be a loss to the forum, imho.

On the other hand, I respect and understand why some people feel that Discussion
Moderators should not get involved with their opinions. Also why I had mixed
feeling in learning of his acceptance of the position: glad, sad and puzzled.
Both glad and sad for him, but puzzled that he would sign-up knowing this.

Don't know why I think in these terms, but it just seems a shame to take
that away from our volunteers. They remain BrickLink users, buyers and sellers
and deserve a place in our discussions.

I say remove the chains! Set free the Sylvains of the forum! Liberté!

  Perhaps you understand better
than we/others do about these changes but I really am offended by the use of
the term "FUD", if we write something that turns out to be unfounded, that is
because we did not understand, not because we wanted to write some crap. This
comment "What I don’t get is the same participants borrowing the same fears that
have already been assuaged. Again, to me, that can only be willful and disingenuous"
shows a lack of understanding for the fact that however well you might think
these issues have been discussed, to us and others, those fears have not been
answered which says something about communication from the site (or lack of intelligence
of users but if we were all top level business people we'd probably be doing
something else). Hey, just some patience and respect to all goes a long way.
We are trying to get to grips with the implications of these changes, I've
got better things to do than type this stuff just for the hell of it anyway.

No bad feelings!
Robert
 Author: hpoort View Messages Posted By hpoort
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 12:20
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 36 times
 Topic: Problem
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hpoort (405)

Location:  Netherlands, Groningen
Member Since Contact Type Status
Oct 11, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  […]
Hi Sylvain, yes you are right this has been discussed before but the OP and me
and others are still waiting for clarification from BL on this and are simply
asking them - I have looked, I can't find clear answers in the forum. I don't
care if the VAT rules in UK are the same, similar, different of whatever to those
in other European countries, I just want to know details of how this is going
to work here in the UK for my store as it has significant implications on not
only accounting and legal tax returns but also on business decisions for us given
my understanding of my country's tax laws. Please have just a little respect
for us not knowing all the answers and requesting some assistance from BL and
a little more patience with us instead of dismissing our concerns as FUD, this
is not the 1st time you have treated us with this sort of response. If you know
all the answers for you, in your country great, I wish I could say the same.
Bill's message was to BL Admins and my responses were also directed at BL
Admins, I would like a response from them. What you see here is frustration from
small businesses being in the dark. I cannot just wake up one morning to find
things have changed and I am not compliant, we'd simply have to close if
that happened. If that happens we'll likely go somewhere else to sell, I
don't want that.

Thanks for your understanding
Robert

I never said I knew everything.  But when something has been proven to me, I
stop saying the opposite.

What irks me in these threads is that even though there’s genuine concerns and
questions, they are always surrounded by willful confusions and disingenuous
summaries.
Yes, willful and disingenuous because they have been clarified several times.

Example: “The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start charging
and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU.”

That’s true, but also completely false.  The plan is to collect VAT on imports,
in accordance to UK laws.  (At least, now, Calsbricks adds that it’s the fault
of the lawmakers, not a lunacy of BL’s.  Took a bit of repeating to manage that.)

It’s way more efficient to skip that bit in order to raise outrage and lengthy
discourses on “we’re different, we’re not VAT-registered, we are forbidden to
collect VAT.”

And don’t say it’s not what’s happening: that’s the main part of your own answer.

No, you’re not VAT-registered, yes, you’re forbidden to collect VAT, but when
you import something in the UK, you have to pay import VAT.  That has not changed
and it won’t change.  (UK won’t abandon VAT on January 1st.)
And when you’ll sell to EU buyers after July 1st, your EU buyers will have to
pay EU VAT, and BL will collect that.  The same way BL will collect EU VAT when
an EU buyer buys (for less than €150) from a seller in the USA, China, Japan,
Australia….
And that have been said several times.  So why rekindle the “BL will collect
VAT on everything” FUD?  And why step into it if you read the other threads where
it was already explained?


And if BL is registering for VAT in UK, it’s for the same reasons they did it
in UE: because they need to in regards to their current activities, maybe because
it’ll be simpler to manage the marketplace thing, but not because they will become
a seller and start chargeing VAT willy-nilly.

BL is (at last) observing the laws.  BL is setting a moral foot in the UK.  So
why do you think BL has become mad and will make 99% of their UK sellers outlaws
or bankrupt?  You think they’ll replace you with cheaply-paid minifigures or
brick-made automatons?


I understand genuine fears, uncertainties and doubts.  I don’t understand burying
them under fake ones.

The questions about refunds, or delays, or fees are genuine concerns.  But though
Sales taxes are different from VAT in some aspects (e.g. they have exemptions,
we have registration), a lot of their respective mechanisms are actually the
same, especially with these new marketplace laws.  And as you can see how it
works for Sales taxes (Onsite payments and the new refund mechanism), you can
surmise it will work the same with VAT.
But even then, yes, I understand you’d want more details on that.  What I also
understand is that you won’t get them if you start, develop and finish with unrelated
concerns, wrong statements and unsubstantiated claims.


Yes, there’s a lack of communication, a lack of documentation and some problems
(invoices and VAT ID…).  The experts BL consults say one thing, and maybe the
BL developpers do another, or maybe they do what the experts said but, in the
end, BL users don’t understand what’s exactly happening or what will happen. 
I get that.
What I don’t get is the same participants borrowing the same fears that have
already been assuaged.
Again, to me, that can only be willful and disingenuous.

Sincerely,
Sylvain

Sylvain,

I so appreciate the patience you have. To keep on explaining with such accuracy
and respect to all those involved. Of all your hundreds or thousands of posts,
I have yet to see a single one where you have not been right (!), both on technicalities
and on striking the right tone. I feel that this needs to be said with the other
tones being voiced in this thread. When people start calling something 'a
debate' while it's fears and lack of understanding on one side and facts
on the other, I feel offended, even when not at all involved.

My compliments on the professionalism how you handle it all.

Hans-Peter
 Author: popsicle View Messages Posted By popsicle
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 12:33
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
 Viewed: 70 times
 Topic: Problem
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Location:  USA, Washington
Member Since Contact Type Status
Feb 21, 2006 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: ConstrucToys
In Problem, hpoort writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  […]
Hi Sylvain, yes you are right this has been discussed before but the OP and me
and others are still waiting for clarification from BL on this and are simply
asking them - I have looked, I can't find clear answers in the forum. I don't
care if the VAT rules in UK are the same, similar, different of whatever to those
in other European countries, I just want to know details of how this is going
to work here in the UK for my store as it has significant implications on not
only accounting and legal tax returns but also on business decisions for us given
my understanding of my country's tax laws. Please have just a little respect
for us not knowing all the answers and requesting some assistance from BL and
a little more patience with us instead of dismissing our concerns as FUD, this
is not the 1st time you have treated us with this sort of response. If you know
all the answers for you, in your country great, I wish I could say the same.
Bill's message was to BL Admins and my responses were also directed at BL
Admins, I would like a response from them. What you see here is frustration from
small businesses being in the dark. I cannot just wake up one morning to find
things have changed and I am not compliant, we'd simply have to close if
that happened. If that happens we'll likely go somewhere else to sell, I
don't want that.

Thanks for your understanding
Robert

I never said I knew everything.  But when something has been proven to me, I
stop saying the opposite.

What irks me in these threads is that even though there’s genuine concerns and
questions, they are always surrounded by willful confusions and disingenuous
summaries.
Yes, willful and disingenuous because they have been clarified several times.

Example: “The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start charging
and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU.”

That’s true, but also completely false.  The plan is to collect VAT on imports,
in accordance to UK laws.  (At least, now, Calsbricks adds that it’s the fault
of the lawmakers, not a lunacy of BL’s.  Took a bit of repeating to manage that.)

It’s way more efficient to skip that bit in order to raise outrage and lengthy
discourses on “we’re different, we’re not VAT-registered, we are forbidden to
collect VAT.”

And don’t say it’s not what’s happening: that’s the main part of your own answer.

No, you’re not VAT-registered, yes, you’re forbidden to collect VAT, but when
you import something in the UK, you have to pay import VAT.  That has not changed
and it won’t change.  (UK won’t abandon VAT on January 1st.)
And when you’ll sell to EU buyers after July 1st, your EU buyers will have to
pay EU VAT, and BL will collect that.  The same way BL will collect EU VAT when
an EU buyer buys (for less than €150) from a seller in the USA, China, Japan,
Australia….
And that have been said several times.  So why rekindle the “BL will collect
VAT on everything” FUD?  And why step into it if you read the other threads where
it was already explained?


And if BL is registering for VAT in UK, it’s for the same reasons they did it
in UE: because they need to in regards to their current activities, maybe because
it’ll be simpler to manage the marketplace thing, but not because they will become
a seller and start chargeing VAT willy-nilly.

BL is (at last) observing the laws.  BL is setting a moral foot in the UK.  So
why do you think BL has become mad and will make 99% of their UK sellers outlaws
or bankrupt?  You think they’ll replace you with cheaply-paid minifigures or
brick-made automatons?


I understand genuine fears, uncertainties and doubts.  I don’t understand burying
them under fake ones.

The questions about refunds, or delays, or fees are genuine concerns.  But though
Sales taxes are different from VAT in some aspects (e.g. they have exemptions,
we have registration), a lot of their respective mechanisms are actually the
same, especially with these new marketplace laws.  And as you can see how it
works for Sales taxes (Onsite payments and the new refund mechanism), you can
surmise it will work the same with VAT.
But even then, yes, I understand you’d want more details on that.  What I also
understand is that you won’t get them if you start, develop and finish with unrelated
concerns, wrong statements and unsubstantiated claims.


Yes, there’s a lack of communication, a lack of documentation and some problems
(invoices and VAT ID…).  The experts BL consults say one thing, and maybe the
BL developpers do another, or maybe they do what the experts said but, in the
end, BL users don’t understand what’s exactly happening or what will happen. 
I get that.
What I don’t get is the same participants borrowing the same fears that have
already been assuaged.
Again, to me, that can only be willful and disingenuous.

Sincerely,
Sylvain

Sylvain,

I so appreciate the patience you have. To keep on explaining with such accuracy
and respect to all those involved. Of all your hundreds or thousands of posts,
I have yet to see a single one where you have not been right (!), both on technicalities
and on striking the right tone.

Except for those times when he's questioned my opinion, then he's out
of line

  I feel that this needs to be said with the other
tones being voiced in this thread. When people start calling something 'a
debate' while it's fears and lack of understanding on one side and facts
on the other, I feel offended, even when not at all involved.

My compliments on the professionalism how you handle it all.

+1
 Author: Bricks_NW_UK View Messages Posted By Bricks_NW_UK
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 08:10
 Subject: Re: Need to understand this, admin
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Bricks_NW_UK (586)

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In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Yes they are. In the rest of Europe you have to be VAT registered irrespective
of your turnover (if I understand correctly and from what you have all did previously.)
In the UK your don't have to register for VAT until you turn over £85,000
and then it isn't mandatory.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 08:20
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SylvainLS (36)

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In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Yes they are. In the rest of Europe you have to be VAT registered irrespective
of your turnover (if I understand correctly and from what you have all did previously.)

No, it’s not true.  And I repeat it every time one of you says so.


   In the UK your don't have to register for VAT until you turn over £85,000
and then it isn't mandatory.

And it’s €85,800 in France.  Any other difference you want to dig up?  Because
Calsbricks never managed to.

History lesson: UK adopted the VAT in order to enter the EEC.  The rules are
the same.
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 08:31
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calsbricks (6604)

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In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Yes they are. In the rest of Europe you have to be VAT registered irrespective
of your turnover (if I understand correctly and from what you have all did previously.)

No, it’s not true.  And I repeat it every time one of you says so.


   In the UK your don't have to register for VAT until you turn over £85,000
and then it isn't mandatory.

And it’s €85,800 in France.  Any other difference you want to dig up?  Because
Calsbricks never managed to.

History lesson: UK adopted the VAT in order to enter the EEC.  The rules are
the same.

Future - UK left the EU in transition and leaves totally on the 1st of Jan 2021`.

It has already been published that the MOSS scheme reporting will not be acceptable
any longer from 1 Jan and going into the technical areas where the schemes differ
is tedious and boring .

Stick to the original thread and either refer us to where this has been answered
or move on.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 09:20
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Teup (4961)

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In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Yes they are. In the rest of Europe you have to be VAT registered irrespective
of your turnover (if I understand correctly and from what you have all did previously.)
In the UK your don't have to register for VAT until you turn over £85,000
and then it isn't mandatory.

Here in the NL, up to €20000 turnover you can choose, and a lot of BL sellers
operate below that threshold.

Plus, there is the option to work with margin VAT rather than a flat percentage
over the entire turnover. That'd probably cause a lot more trouble..

All in all I really don't think VAT rules would be more of a problem for
people in the UK more than in the rest of Europe. If they'd look specifically
into the UK rules, they would have to look into all the rules of all other countries
as well.

(provided that BL would at some point levy VAT over orders - I haven't followed
the topic recently so I don't even know if this will ever be a thing or not)
 Author: Rob_and_Shelagh View Messages Posted By Rob_and_Shelagh
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 09:27
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Rob_and_Shelagh (23723)

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In Problem, Teup writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  […]
Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe […]

No, they are not.

Yes they are. In the rest of Europe you have to be VAT registered irrespective
of your turnover (if I understand correctly and from what you have all did previously.)
In the UK your don't have to register for VAT until you turn over £85,000
and then it isn't mandatory.

Here in the NL, up to €20000 turnover you can choose, and a lot of BL sellers
operate below that threshold.

Plus, there is the option to work with margin VAT rather than a flat percentage
over the entire turnover. That'd probably cause a lot more trouble..

All in all I really don't think VAT rules would be more of a problem for
people in the UK more than in the rest of Europe. If they'd look specifically
into the UK rules, they would have to look into all the rules of all other countries
as well.


If they have gone to the trouble of registering as a UK VAT registered business
then we would perhaps assume "they'd look specifically into the UK rules"

  (provided that BL would at some point levy VAT over orders - I haven't followed
the topic recently so I don't even know if this will ever be a thing or not)

If you have not followed the topic perhaps it is not so important for you.

Robert
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 07:33
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Teup (4961)

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In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  Having discussed this with my companies VAT specialists when this first cropped
up, they advised me that BL were completely wrong to be considering adding VAT
on to invoices from non VAT Registered sellers. In fact thy stated it was illegal
to do so.

I wonder who said that? There's nothing illegal about charging VAT under
the MOSS scheme. If BL is the mediating party who buys from the seller and sells
to the buyer, and adding VAT, I don't see how that possibly could be "illegal"..
This has nothing to do with whether the seller is VAT registered. If a VAT registered
seller sells Lego they bought from a garage sale that was without VAT, adding
VAT to it when reselling is the way to do it.

  Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe

From everything I've heard, it is exactly the same as in the rest of Europe.
I've seen this comment a couple of times, but what actually is different?
 Author: Rob_and_Shelagh View Messages Posted By Rob_and_Shelagh
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 08:04
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Rob_and_Shelagh (23723)

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In Problem, Teup writes:
  In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  Having discussed this with my companies VAT specialists when this first cropped
up, they advised me that BL were completely wrong to be considering adding VAT
on to invoices from non VAT Registered sellers. In fact thy stated it was illegal
to do so.

I wonder who said that? There's nothing illegal about charging VAT under
the MOSS scheme. If BL is the mediating party who buys from the seller and sells
to the buyer, and adding VAT, I don't see how that possibly could be "illegal"..
This has nothing to do with whether the seller is VAT registered. If a VAT registered
seller sells Lego they bought from a garage sale that was without VAT, adding
VAT to it when reselling is the way to do it.

  Again UK VAT rules are different to rest of Europe

From everything I've heard, it is exactly the same as in the rest of Europe.
I've seen this comment a couple of times, but what actually is different?

If that is the way UK authorities want to account for BL transactions from UK
sellers (and I'm not sure they do) then all UK sellers would need to register
for VAT under the voluntary VAT registration scheme (as any seller below the
VAT threashold can choose to do) and reclaim all the VAT they paid on the purchases
(inventory, overheads, supplies, services, etc) then price the goods net of VAT,
sell them to Bricklink then Bricklink sell them to the consumer after adding
VAT... So most UK sellers will be filing negative VAT returns. If that is how
this is supposed to work BL need to notify us so we can set this up with HMRC.
Really???

Robert
 Author: tjb01527 View Messages Posted By tjb01527
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 07:04
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tjb01527 (2519)

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When you go over the VAT threshold in the UK (85K), your accountant taps you
on the shoulder and usually you pay every quarter. I know a few countries (USA
& Aussie) get charged tax on their purchases. But Bricklink collecting VAT from
someone who is not registered for VAT. Perhaps they need to focus on their current
admin issues rather than trying to run begore they can walk.


In Problem, calsbricks writes:
  In a matter of a few weeks now Bricklink has stated that they will be registering
for VAT in the UK. The plan, according to earlier threads from admin is to start
charging and collecting VAT on orders being raised in the UK/EU. This, despite
the case that the majority of sellers in the UK are not registered for VAT (They
do not meet the minimum threshold). The basis for this is the fact that they
will 'take over ' the sale.

This is based on the ridiculous situation our lawmakers have put us in regarding
'enabling marketplaces'.

Where are the contractual liabilities with this? Bricklink are the 'enabler'
but the seller is the one that is being bought from and as a non vat registered
business has no right to charge vat on the items they are selling. So, if something
goes wrong with the order who is responsible Bricklink or the seller? Where does
a lost package refund come from - who pays for that? Under normal circumstances
(the last 10 or so years) that has been us, when it happens, however I am a little
bit confused over who is going to return the VAT collected to the buyer. Is this
one of the purposes of the clumsy 'refund' procedure that has been set
up. And lets not forget Paypal do not refund their fees on refunds. So as a store
are we picking up everything?

Believe this needs explanation/confirmation from Bricklink and their advisors
with specifi response to 'problem orders'
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 07:29
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SylvainLS (36)

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Nice, another thread full of FUD on VAT collection. *sigh*
 Author: Bricks_NW_UK View Messages Posted By Bricks_NW_UK
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In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  Nice, another thread full of FUD on VAT collection. *sigh*

Yes but I find it annoying when people comment on regulations in other countries.
I know the rules here, but don't fully understand the situation on USA and
elsewhere.

Clealy BL don't know / understand the UK rules otherwise they wouldn't
be pursuing this
 Author: tjb01527 View Messages Posted By tjb01527
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 09:20
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Maybe it's a case of BL collecting VAT off Uk buyers getting stuff from Usa
etc. There are several tier rates of VAT in the UK. If you are reg for vat but
sell under £120k (i think) you can pay 7.75% on toy sales.



In Problem, Bricks_NW_UK writes:
  In Problem, SylvainLS writes:
  Nice, another thread full of FUD on VAT collection. *sigh*

Yes but I find it annoying when people comment on regulations in other countries.
I know the rules here, but don't fully understand the situation on USA and
elsewhere.

Clealy BL don't know / understand the UK rules otherwise they wouldn't
be pursuing this
 Author: BrickCompulsion View Messages Posted By BrickCompulsion
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 14:27
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BrickCompulsion (1363)

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Right

Well said Robert - some very sensible posts
Sylvain- forgive me as we haven’t really spoken but I don’t care if this has
been debated before or if vat rules are the same I. France or the eu and the
uk - quite frankly I don’t care

I am not interested in point scoring or getting one up over anyway by claiming
I know more than anyone else

I posted effectively a +1 to the original question and after reading the whole
thread this evening.
On the back of that I would like to either be directed to where I can find the
answers to the below or for Bricklink to actually respond in a timely manner
to the following as I don’t know the answer and I would like to know. I also
feel it is important for me and others to know (Robert - your suggestion of an
email to all UK sellers for as fundamental change as I think may be happening
is excellent and I can’t imagine a reason why it wouldn’t be done)

- is Bricklink going to be charging vat on all sales made by UK stores ?
- is Bricklink just charging overseas buyers vat on sales made in uk stores where
they should be paying vat?

I think this is the fundamental question. If it’s a yes to question 1 then that’s
going to generate quite a few more

Cheers and please don’t anyone take offence - I just want to understand and I
think hearing it from the horses mouth - ie BrickLink is the way forward. (Or
a direction to where the explanation of where this is answered would be great
)
 Author: calsbricks View Messages Posted By calsbricks
 Posted: Nov 22, 2020 19:21
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In Problem, BrickCompulsion writes:
  Right

Well said Robert - some very sensible posts
Sylvain- forgive me as we haven’t really spoken but I don’t care if this has
been debated before or if vat rules are the same I. France or the eu and the
uk - quite frankly I don’t care

I am not interested in point scoring or getting one up over anyway by claiming
I know more than anyone else

I posted effectively a +1 to the original question and after reading the whole
thread this evening.
On the back of that I would like to either be directed to where I can find the
answers to the below or for Bricklink to actually respond in a timely manner
to the following as I don’t know the answer and I would like to know. I also
feel it is important for me and others to know (Robert - your suggestion of an
email to all UK sellers for as fundamental change as I think may be happening
is excellent and I can’t imagine a reason why it wouldn’t be done)

- is Bricklink going to be charging vat on all sales made by UK stores ?
- is Bricklink just charging overseas buyers vat on sales made in uk stores where
they should be paying vat?

I think this is the fundamental question. If it’s a yes to question 1 then that’s
going to generate quite a few more

Cheers and please don’t anyone take offence - I just want to understand and I
think hearing it from the horses mouth - ie BrickLink is the way forward. (Or
a direction to where the explanation of where this is answered would be great
)

I believe that was the point of the original post which like many on here get
waylaid

Let's see what and if they respond.
 Author: BrickCompulsion View Messages Posted By BrickCompulsion
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I believe that was the point of the original post which like many on here get
waylaid

Let's see what and if they respond.

Indeed it did get a bit sidetracked ha ha