i’m using been using bricklink to verify some sets part by part under a magnifying
glass and comparing them to bricklink part lists. At least twice, i’ve found
sets with parts that use an alternate number to the one listed that don’t appear
in the Alternate section. Do parts lists change (for example original 90640
to alternate 14533) later in manufacturing run?
I read the guidelines for Alternates, but it doesn’t rule out the possibility
that the sets verified weren’t all earlier sets.
Can anyone clarify if there’s a way to determine if/when an alternate part becomes
a regularly produced part of a set?
i’m using been using bricklink to verify some sets part by part under a magnifying
glass and comparing them to bricklink part lists. At least twice, i’ve found
sets with parts that use an alternate number to the one listed that don’t appear
in the Alternate section. Do parts lists change (for example original 90640
to alternate 14533) later in manufacturing run?
yes, inventories can and often do change during production. the part you mentioned
has the number 14533 as an alternate number for the part itself
so you will never find any inventory that lists 14533 as something in the set
on bricklinkas it will always only show the main part id.
I read the guidelines for Alternates, but it doesn’t rule out the possibility
that the sets verified weren’t all earlier sets.
alternates are for when bricklink distinguishes between 2 different parts and
then the inventory has been known to contain both versions of the part, however
if bricklink doesn't differentiate between them, then that data isn't
available in the inventory but you may be able to use some data to compare pcc's
to see which version was included but that usually isn't neccasary.
Can anyone clarify if there’s a way to determine if/when an alternate part becomes
a regularly produced part of a set?
all items listed in the alternate section of an inventory are known to have bee
included in at list 1 run of a set
I’ve noticed that some parts — 4085d for example — have several alternates.
Some sets list specific numbers of the alternate even though they are essentially
the same part, so didn’t know if that was just a baseline or if that is the only
piece used in that particular set.
Just trying to determine if a set (new & opened or rebuilt) with alternate parts
is as valuable for collecting as one with an exact match.
I’ve noticed that some parts — 4085d for example — have several alternates.
Some sets list specific numbers of the alternate even though they are essentially
the same part, so didn’t know if that was just a baseline or if that is the only
piece used in that particular set.
Just trying to determine if a set (new & opened or rebuilt) with alternate parts
is as valuable for collecting as one with an exact match.
This particular part changed a lot (4 variants!).
Most of us see them as different but LEGO doesn’t differientate them and used
them indiscriminately.
LEGO always use their stock, and some colours are used more than others, so the
changes spanned several years, until the stocks were used.
No variant shown in an inventory is really “better” or “truer” than the other
as the inventories reflect what is really found in boxes. So if the inventory
says 4085c in Regular and 4085d in Alternates, that means both where found.
“Who” found them and “when” should be in the changelog.
The inventory shows the same (and total) quantity as Regular and Alternate but
it’s not unheard of to find both variants for the same colour (generally in different
baggies).
(For instance, the set needs 10x parts in Black, you may find 6x of variant a
and 4x of variant b but the inventory will show 10x of a in Regular and 10x of
b in Alternate.)
Some people may prefer the oldest variant because it would be the one found in
earlier production runs of the set (logical but not garanteed, LEGO manages its
stocks in mysterious ways).
As for variants not in the inventories (say, 4085d for a set from the 1980s),
some will find it abominable, and others won’t care.
Note that there’s also a lot of small, non-fonctional, differences that are not
reflected in the catalogue as variants.
One example would now be the different hollow studs on heads (whether the stud
is fully blocked or with 2 or 3 small holes), or the small holes in the underside
pins on 1xN plates and bricks.
Here again, some will prefer “period accurate” parts and others won’t care.
Now i’m going to use a super-specific example to be sure i’m fully understanding
what i think you’re saying:
A particular set part list in Bricklink lists a 4085d variant specifically as
44860… but it’s possible that same set could have been produced with all 44860,
all 60897 or a mix of the two?
And the only real difference in the value based on the use of the Bricklink listed
44860 only and the inclusion of 60897 is a matter of opinion to a particular
collector…
ie: when i eventually post it for sale, i won’t get dinged by Bricklink for selling
a set that isn’t 100% accurate according to their parts list as long as they
are the same part (just a different number) because either could conceivably
be correct?
Now i’m going to use a super-specific example to be sure i’m fully understanding
what i think you’re saying:
A particular set part list in Bricklink lists a 4085d variant specifically as
44860… but it’s possible that same set could have been produced with all 44860,
all 60897 or a mix of the two?
And the only real difference in the value based on the use of the Bricklink listed
44860 only and the inclusion of 60897 is a matter of opinion to a particular
collector…
Yes… but not exactly because it’s even less strict than that.
The confusion comes from two usages of the word “alternate.”
Alternate IDs
As far as BL is concerned, 44860 and 60897 are the same part, 4085d.
44860 and 60897 are “alternate IDs” of 4085d and only appear on the part’s page
in the catalogue.
Inventories only show “4085d” and there’s no information in the catalogue (or
even, as far as I know, anywhere else) whether a set came with 44860 or 60897.
The only case that comes to mind when one could know what “alternate ID” is etched
on a part (without having the part and maginfying glass in hand) is when that
ID was specifically used for some colour. Because, when LEGO used PC for transparent
parts, the moulds had to be different from the ABS ones because PC and ABS don’t
set/cool at the same proportions so if you want the parts to be same size when
set/cold, you need different sizes for the moulds.
Alternate section
In inventories, there’s a Regular section and an Alternate section (and Minifigures
and Counterparts sections).
Those are for “variants.” When the catalogue recognizes two different moulds
as different parts by having a separate entry for each one.
For the ‘1x1 plate with clip’, there’s 4 different variants, 4085a, 4085b, 4085c,
and 4085d.
(And each of these could have “alternate IDs.” (Well, only 4085d has… because
either LEGO used the same ID, 4085, on all a/b/c moulds, even though they changed
the shape, or because it was before the ID was etched on small parts and so we
don’t know about them.))
In real sets/boxes, you can sometimes find two (or more) of these variants.
One will be in the Regular section and the other(s) in the Alternate section.
Reusing your words: “A particular set part list in Bricklink lists ‘plate 1x1
with clip’ specifically as 4085c in Regular and 4085d in Alternate… but it’s
possible that same set could have been produced with all 4085c, all 4085d or
a mix of the two.”
So whether “4085d” means 44860 or 60897 is even less known.
ie: when i eventually post it for sale, i won’t get dinged by Bricklink for selling
a set that isn’t 100% accurate according to their parts list as long as they
are the same part (just a different number) because either could conceivably
be correct?
For BL, for 44860/60897, yes, totally exact.
For 4085c/4085d, yes, but not “conceivably,” only if the variant is present in
the inventory, either as Regular or as Alternate, because that means someone
really found them in their sets.
As for whether a collector will be happier with one or the other, it depends
on the collector
I think there’s very few of them who care about 44860/60897 differences¹.
There may be more of them who would care more about 4085c/4085d differences even
when both appear in the inventory.
No collector worth the epithet would be happy with a variant that does not appear
in the inventory.
¹ Except for some visible mould differences that the catalogue doesn’t recognizes,
like the head hollow studs (blocked with 0, 2 or 3 holes) and holes in underside
pins on plates/bricks.
Now i’m going to use a super-specific example to be sure i’m fully understanding
what i think you’re saying:
A particular set part list in Bricklink lists a 4085d variant specifically as
44860… but it’s possible that same set could have been produced with all 44860,
all 60897 or a mix of the two?
And the only real difference in the value based on the use of the Bricklink listed
44860 only and the inclusion of 60897 is a matter of opinion to a particular
collector…
Yes… but not exactly because it’s even less strict than that.
The confusion comes from two usages of the word “alternate.”
Alternate IDs
As far as BL is concerned, 44860 and 60897 are the same part, 4085d.
44860 and 60897 are “alternate IDs” of 4085d and only appear on the part’s page
in the catalogue.
Inventories only show “4085d” and there’s no information in the catalogue (or
even, as far as I know, anywhere else) whether a set came with 44860 or 60897.
The only case that comes to mind when one could know what “alternate ID” is etched
on a part (without having the part and maginfying glass in hand) is when that
ID was specifically used for some colour. Because, when LEGO used PC for transparent
parts, the moulds had to be different from the ABS ones because PC and ABS don’t
set/cool at the same proportions so if you want the parts to be same size when
set/cold, you need different sizes for the moulds.
Alternate section
In inventories, there’s a Regular section and an Alternate section (and Minifigures
and Counterparts sections).
Those are for “variants.” When the catalogue recognizes two different moulds
as different parts by having a separate entry for each one.
For the ‘1x1 plate with clip’, there’s 4 different variants, 4085a, 4085b, 4085c,
and 4085d.
(And each of these could have “alternate IDs.” (Well, only 4085d has… because
either LEGO used the same ID, 4085, on all a/b/c moulds, even though they changed
the shape, or because it was before the ID was etched on small parts and so we
don’t know about them.))
In real sets/boxes, you can sometimes find two (or more) of these variants.
One will be in the Regular section and the other(s) in the Alternate section.
Reusing your words: “A particular set part list in Bricklink lists ‘plate 1x1
with clip’ specifically as 4085c in Regular and 4085d in Alternate… but it’s
possible that same set could have been produced with all 4085c, all 4085d or
a mix of the two.”
So whether “4085d” means 44860 or 60897 is even less known.
ie: when i eventually post it for sale, i won’t get dinged by Bricklink for selling
a set that isn’t 100% accurate according to their parts list as long as they
are the same part (just a different number) because either could conceivably
be correct?
For BL, for 44860/60897, yes, totally exact.
For 4085c/4085d, yes, but not “conceivably,” only if the variant is present in
the inventory, either as Regular or as Alternate, because that means someone
really found them in their sets.
As for whether a collector will be happier with one or the other, it depends
on the collector
I think there’s very few of them who care about 44860/60897 differences¹.
There may be more of them who would care more about 4085c/4085d differences even
when both appear in the inventory.
No collector worth the epithet would be happy with a variant that does not appear
in the inventory.
¹ Except for some visible mould differences that the catalogue doesn’t recognizes,
like the head hollow studs (blocked with 0, 2 or 3 holes) and holes in underside
pins on plates/bricks.
A very detailed response. Alot of helpful information.
(Yes, i use a magnifying glass to get the EXACT part numbers off each and every
piece. I’m OCD like that.)
I know there are huge differences between 4085a, 4085b, 4085c, and 4085d… whether
its the 44860 or 60897 variant (which are nearly indisguingishable to the naked
eye aside from the difference in printed number). I keep a few of each seperate
so i can compare the a/b/c variants with don’t always have a part number printed
in them.
I used the 4085d as an example.
If I’m undertsnding correctly, then a Bricklink inventory that lists the specific
part as 44860 (and no alternates at the bottom of the inventory list) can ONLY
include 44860 parts as they (60897) are not recognized as offically accepted
alternates. If it’s only listed as 4085d, then it could be either.
I know it sounds like I keep repeating the same question. But I inherited a
few pre-assembeled sets that certain parts do not exactly match the Bricklink
inventories… and there were no alternate parts listed at the bottom of the Bricklinks
parts listing.
What I’m really trying to determine is if these different parts are here-to-for
unknown alternate parts for that set or if at some point prior to them being
handed down to me, multiple sets where intermingled and then incorrectly reassembled.
[…]
If I’m undertsnding correctly, then a Bricklink inventory that lists the specific
part as 44860 […]
No. Stop right here. That's what you don't understand.
This never happens and this will never happen. “44860” will never appear in
inventories on BrickLink. And it's the same for 5731, 60897, and 93793.
For BrickLink, all those parts are 4085d. Period. 44860 and the others have
no real existence for BL, just marks on the parts that have no functional utility
except to find “4085d” when all you have is that number, either because you have
a magnifying glass or because you're coming from another catalogue or site
(including LEGO sometimes) that use those numbers and not “4085d.”
The only thing BL, the catalogue, the community (and then, not everyone) care
about is whether it's 4085d or a/b/c. The rest is too fine a detail to be
practical for a marketplace.
Sorry, you're one of the very few who cares 🤷♂️
[…]
What I’m really trying to determine is if these different parts are here-to-for
unknown alternate parts for that set or if at some point prior to them being
handed down to me, multiple sets where intermingled and then incorrectly reassembled.
Even if it were the “real” variants (a/b/c), if you don't know if the parts
have been mixed between sets or not, then there's no sufficient proof for
modifying the catalogue / for the catalogue to care.
Thought I’d update you. For better or worse, I think i’ve found a work-around
for most of the issue.
I inherited a bunch of assembled/partly assembled sets with pieces that didn’t
match Bricklinks inventories nor listed as alternates at the bottom. That got
me thinking.
Then i ran into an odd quirk of Bricklinks search. 55981 is a wheel hub with
several alternates. However, when i typed in an alternate to find out which
set it belonged to, the search engine returned sets containing 55981… and nowhere
in those inventory lists did it list 20896 as an alternate. As if Bricklink
could not determine which sets contained the 20896 alternate so it defaulted
back to 55981. A bit frustrating when i have dozens of one and few of the other.
Ironically, despite a disclaimer that Bricklink is more likely to contain a more
accurate inventory, Brickset allowed me to search by ONLY the alternate number.
VOILA. Now I can tell which sets have which alternate used.
I still prefer Bricklinks inventories as they are generally more complete. But
I can use Brickset to resolve any discrepencies.
Ironically, despite a disclaimer that Bricklink is more likely to contain a more
accurate inventory, Brickset allowed me to search by ONLY the alternate number.
VOILA. Now I can tell which sets have which alternate used.
I still prefer Bricklinks inventories as they are generally more complete. But
I can use Brickset to resolve any discrepencies.
You need to be careful though as a lot of brickset inventories are imported from
lego,com, and they replace original parts with modern equivalents if the old
ones are no longer available but the replacements are. So sets that could have
had the older number when released will show the alternative newer number if
the new part is avaliable.
Ironically, despite a disclaimer that Bricklink is more likely to contain a more
accurate inventory, Brickset allowed me to search by ONLY the alternate number.
VOILA. Now I can tell which sets have which alternate used.
I still prefer Bricklinks inventories as they are generally more complete. But
I can use Brickset to resolve any discrepencies.
You need to be careful though as a lot of brickset inventories are imported from
lego,com, and they replace original parts with modern equivalents if the old
ones are no longer available but the replacements are. So sets that could have
had the older number when released will show the alternative newer number if
the new part is avaliable.
True. But the problem remains: According to to every set inventory I went through
on Bricklink, 20896 doesn’t show up in any set even as an alternate. And since
i have dozens of them, they HAVE to belong “somewhere”.
Ironically, despite a disclaimer that Bricklink is more likely to contain a more
accurate inventory, Brickset allowed me to search by ONLY the alternate number.
VOILA. Now I can tell which sets have which alternate used.
I still prefer Bricklinks inventories as they are generally more complete. But
I can use Brickset to resolve any discrepencies.
You need to be careful though as a lot of brickset inventories are imported from
lego,com, and they replace original parts with modern equivalents if the old
ones are no longer available but the replacements are. So sets that could have
had the older number when released will show the alternative newer number if
the new part is avaliable.
True. But the problem remains: According to to every set inventory I went through
on Bricklink, 20896 doesn’t show up in any set even as an alternate. And since
i have dozens of them, they HAVE to belong “somewhere”.
That is because you are confusing alternate item numbers with alternate parts.
20896 doesn't show up "even as an alternate part" because it is treated
as the same part as 55981. Where lego introduced a new part number for an existing
part and bricklink identifies them as the same part, you need to search for the
main part number to get any hits when doing an inventory search.
Ironically, despite a disclaimer that Bricklink is more likely to contain a more
accurate inventory, Brickset allowed me to search by ONLY the alternate number.
VOILA. Now I can tell which sets have which alternate used.
I still prefer Bricklinks inventories as they are generally more complete. But
I can use Brickset to resolve any discrepencies.
You need to be careful though as a lot of brickset inventories are imported from
lego,com, and they replace original parts with modern equivalents if the old
ones are no longer available but the replacements are. So sets that could have
had the older number when released will show the alternative newer number if
the new part is avaliable.
True. But the problem remains: According to to every set inventory I went through
on Bricklink, 20896 doesn’t show up in any set even as an alternate. And since
i have dozens of them, they HAVE to belong “somewhere”.
That is because you are confusing alternate item numbers with alternate parts.
20896 doesn't show up "even as an alternate part" because it is treated
as the same part as 55981. Where lego introduced a new part number for an existing
part and bricklink identifies them as the same part, you need to search for the
main part number to get any hits when doing an inventory search.
Maybe I wasnt clear enough in all this?
Searching for the main part will find you all the sets containing that part.
I understand that much.
What I was trying to determine is what sets came the the MAIN part number only
and what sets came with the ALTERNATE part number only.
Using the above example of MAIN 55981 hub, not all sets came with that exact
part number…. some sets were produced with the ALTERNATE 20896 part number.
While superficially theyre the exact same part with different numbers on them,
it makes a difference to whether the set is technically “correct” or not. UNLESS
that set was produced both using the MAIN numbered part AND the ALTERNATE numbered
part.
Ironically, despite a disclaimer that Bricklink is more likely to contain a more
accurate inventory, Brickset allowed me to search by ONLY the alternate number.
VOILA. Now I can tell which sets have which alternate used.
I still prefer Bricklinks inventories as they are generally more complete. But
I can use Brickset to resolve any discrepencies.
You need to be careful though as a lot of brickset inventories are imported from
lego,com, and they replace original parts with modern equivalents if the old
ones are no longer available but the replacements are. So sets that could have
had the older number when released will show the alternative newer number if
the new part is avaliable.
True. But the problem remains: According to to every set inventory I went through
on Bricklink, 20896 doesn’t show up in any set even as an alternate. And since
i have dozens of them, they HAVE to belong “somewhere”.
That is because you are confusing alternate item numbers with alternate parts.
20896 doesn't show up "even as an alternate part" because it is treated
as the same part as 55981. Where lego introduced a new part number for an existing
part and bricklink identifies them as the same part, you need to search for the
main part number to get any hits when doing an inventory search.
Maybe I wasnt clear enough in all this?
Searching for the main part will find you all the sets containing that part.
I understand that much.
What I was trying to determine is what sets came the the MAIN part number only
and what sets came with the ALTERNATE part number only.
Using the above example of MAIN 55981 hub, not all sets came with that exact
part number…. some sets were produced with the ALTERNATE 20896 part number.
While superficially theyre the exact same part with different numbers on them,
it makes a difference to whether the set is technically “correct” or not. UNLESS
that set was produced both using the MAIN numbered part AND the ALTERNATE numbered
part.
It doesn't make a difference on bricklink as either part number is correct,
as they are the same part at bricklink. It also doesn't make a difference
on most other sites including lego's own database.
If you really must know which alternate id for the same part came I a set, then
I suggest you buy a sealed set and open it to check. Better still, buy three
and open them to be sure as in some cases it is likely that multiple item numbers
were in stock at the same time and opening one set might not be definitive. You
might also want to pay attention to the region that the sealed set version was
released in.
USA, Pennsylvania
Canada, Ontario
France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
United Kingdom, England