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| | | Author: | ccc_V  | | Posted: | Aug 5, 2021 03:36 | | Subject: | VAT settings with a VAT exemption scheme | | Viewed: | 151 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| Lately there have been some messages about the new European law regarding VAT
collection on cross border sales. I'm a bit confused about the correct settings
for my particular case. The last e-mail I received mentioned the following:
If BrickLink determines or receives notification that you are not meeting
your VAT obligations within 30 days after receiving this notice, this will result
in the suspension of your selling abilities on BrickLink.
Once registered for VAT, you will need to enter a valid VAT and/or OSS registration
number in your Store Settings page within the Management tab and enable VAT in
your settings.
This leaves very little room for special cases. In a lot of EU countries there
is a VAT exemption scheme, where you do not have to pay VAT so long as your total
yearly sales are under a certain amount. In Belgium this is called the VAT exemption
scheme for small bussinesses and the max yearly turnover is 25k.
I chose to use this scheme, mainly because it allows me to buy/sell small quantities
at any store without having to deal with VAT. If you buy stuff at a regular toy
store, they typically won't allow you to purchase goods for resale, so getting
back the VAT is a pain.
In any case, the question I have is: if the Bricklink settings allow for this
kind of scheme and if so, what the correct settings are. Right now, there are
only two options: enable or disable VAT. Obviously I don't want to enable
VAT, because per the VAT exemption scheme I do not have to pay VAT and I am not
able to get back VAT on my own purchases. However, I do need some way to formally
register my VAT number on Bricklink to avoid suspension of my selling activities.
Right now I just list it in my store terms, but in that way Bricklink doesn't
have the number registered anywhere.
Second is what to do with the cross-border sales. My total cross-border sales
are most likely going to be just below 10k, but I want to avoid a situation where
someone places a large order and my sales suddenly jump above 10k. Ideally, there
would be some way to set a max total order value.
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| | | | | Author: | coloredbricks | | Posted: | Aug 8, 2021 08:47 | | Subject: | Re: VAT settings with a VAT exemption scheme | | Viewed: | 65 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, ccc_V writes:
| | This leaves very little room for special cases. In a lot of EU countries there
is a VAT exemption scheme, where you do not have to pay VAT so long as your total
yearly sales are under a certain amount. In Belgium this is called the VAT exemption
scheme for small bussinesses and the max yearly turnover is 25k.
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This is no longer valid, even in Belgium. The Belgian limit (and of all other
EU countries) was replaced by an EU-wide limit of EUR 10,000 by July 1st, 2021.
You cannot "choose" the old limit, because the new limit is European law.
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| | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Aug 8, 2021 09:31 | | Subject: | Re: VAT settings with a VAT exemption scheme | | Viewed: | 55 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, legobasar writes:
| | In Selling, ccc_V writes:
| | This leaves very little room for special cases. In a lot of EU countries there
is a VAT exemption scheme, where you do not have to pay VAT so long as your total
yearly sales are under a certain amount. In Belgium this is called the VAT exemption
scheme for small bussinesses and the max yearly turnover is 25k.
|
This is no longer valid, even in Belgium. The Belgian limit (and of all other
EU countries) was replaced by an EU-wide limit of EUR 10,000 by July 1st, 2021.
You cannot "choose" the old limit, because the new limit is European law.
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Do you have any source/confirmation for that?
Because my understanding is, if you’re above 10k€ in EU but below your domestic
threshold, you are still not obligated to collect domestic VAT, only EU VAT.
AFAIK, you can always ask your domestic authorities for an EU VAT ID so you can
use the OSS but that doesn’t change your domestic VAT status.
(Help texts on the French gouvernment’s site haven’t changed, the threshold is
still 82,800€.)
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | dlaw1_lego | | Posted: | Aug 8, 2021 09:48 | | Subject: | Re: VAT settings with a VAT exemption scheme | | Viewed: | 50 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| Limit in Ireland for sale of goods is €75,000 so not sure where I stand right
now.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | coloredbricks | | Posted: | Aug 8, 2021 11:59 | | Subject: | Re: VAT settings with a VAT exemption scheme | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| | | Do you have any source/confirmation for that?
Because my understanding is, if you’re above 10k€ in EU but below your domestic
threshold, you are still not obligated to collect domestic VAT, only EU VAT.
AFAIK, you can always ask your domestic authorities for an EU VAT ID so you can
use the OSS but that doesn’t change your domestic VAT status.
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Yes, I referred to cross-border sales, not domestic sales. I might have misunderstood
the original question, sorry!
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Aug 8, 2021 12:19 | | Subject: | Re: VAT settings with a VAT exemption scheme | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, legobasar writes:
| | | | Do you have any source/confirmation for that?
Because my understanding is, if you’re above 10k€ in EU but below your domestic
threshold, you are still not obligated to collect domestic VAT, only EU VAT.
AFAIK, you can always ask your domestic authorities for an EU VAT ID so you can
use the OSS but that doesn’t change your domestic VAT status.
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Yes, I referred to cross-border sales, not domestic sales. I might have misunderstood
the original question, sorry!
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Yeah, I think Sylvain is right: If you're involved in the VAT circuit, you're
gonna have to work with the new system where you charge the buyer's country's
VAT if you're over the €10000 threshold. If you are not doing VAT in the
first place, for whatever reason (you're a small business under your country's
rules, or you are working with margin VAT rather than a VAT rate over the entire
turnover) then the new system does not apply to you in the first place. That
is, legally. If Bricklink will allow it is still unclear and I don't think
we've had any statements on that?
Did anyone get a warning message yet for not complying with the rules they had
set out at the beginning of july?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Aug 8, 2021 12:55 | | Subject: | Re: VAT settings with a VAT exemption scheme | | Viewed: | 47 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, Teup writes:
| | In Selling, legobasar writes:
| | | | Do you have any source/confirmation for that?
Because my understanding is, if you’re above 10k€ in EU but below your domestic
threshold, you are still not obligated to collect domestic VAT, only EU VAT.
AFAIK, you can always ask your domestic authorities for an EU VAT ID so you can
use the OSS but that doesn’t change your domestic VAT status.
|
Yes, I referred to cross-border sales, not domestic sales. I might have misunderstood
the original question, sorry!
|
Yeah, I think Sylvain is right: If you're involved in the VAT circuit, you're
gonna have to work with the new system where you charge the buyer's country's
VAT if you're over the €10000 threshold. If you are not doing VAT in the
first place, for whatever reason (you're a small business under your country's
rules, or you are working with margin VAT rather than a VAT rate over the entire
turnover) then the new system does not apply to you in the first place. That
is, legally.
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Er, to be clear: I think you can be VAT-exempt domestically because you’re a
small business but the 10k€ limit still applies to your EU sales and you have
to register to the OSS. You’ll be “le cul entre deux chaises”: not collecting
VAT domestically but collecting for EU.
(This doesn’t apply to margin VAT as you can’t reach the limit with margin VAT.)
| | If Bricklink will allow it is still unclear and I don't think
we've had any statements on that?
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Crickets.
But there’s also a sad lack of explanations from our taxing overlords: no one
talks about our cases… well your cases. It seems they think everyone
selling for more than 10k€ in EU is already VAT-registered domestically.
If I were a seller, I would ask:
— my accountant (who, if I had one, would still be doing things like in 1950,
like treating computers as heavy machinery),
— my Chamber of commerce (who would tell me to register because they wouldn’t
know, that would solve the problem and be good for their stats),
— the local office of the tax administration (who wouldn’t know but maybe would
be sorry for me),
— my representatives (who are stuck in 1795)….
(But I’m not, and it’s more fun to have bar stool discussions here   )
| | Did anyone get a warning message yet for not complying with the rules they had
set out at the beginning of july?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Aug 8, 2021 13:30 | | Subject: | Re: VAT settings with a VAT exemption scheme | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Selling, Teup writes:
| | In Selling, legobasar writes:
| | | | Do you have any source/confirmation for that?
Because my understanding is, if you’re above 10k€ in EU but below your domestic
threshold, you are still not obligated to collect domestic VAT, only EU VAT.
AFAIK, you can always ask your domestic authorities for an EU VAT ID so you can
use the OSS but that doesn’t change your domestic VAT status.
|
Yes, I referred to cross-border sales, not domestic sales. I might have misunderstood
the original question, sorry!
|
Yeah, I think Sylvain is right: If you're involved in the VAT circuit, you're
gonna have to work with the new system where you charge the buyer's country's
VAT if you're over the €10000 threshold. If you are not doing VAT in the
first place, for whatever reason (you're a small business under your country's
rules, or you are working with margin VAT rather than a VAT rate over the entire
turnover) then the new system does not apply to you in the first place. That
is, legally.
|
Er, to be clear: I think you can be VAT-exempt domestically because you’re a
small business but the 10k€ limit still applies to your EU sales and you have
to register to the OSS. You’ll be “le cul entre deux chaises”: not collecting
VAT domestically but collecting for EU.
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Ehhh, oh, seems I was right about 1 thing: That you're right But I misunderstood
and thought the new VAT rules are only for those involved with VAT in the first
place. But I looked it up and you are right, even when you have some exemption
you still become obligated to use the new system when you sell more than the
10K threshold.
From the Dutch chamber of commerce site:
Wanneer je van de kleineondernemersregeling (KOR) gebruikmaakt, heb je een
jaarlijkse omzet van minder dan 20.000 euro. Door je deelname aan de KOR heb
je btw-vrijstelling. Wanneer je met je webshop de drempel van 10.000 euro aan
omzet in andere EU-lidstaten dan Nederland overschrijdt, word je btw-plichtig
in de betreffende EU-lidstaten. Op dat moment gelden de btw-regels van de EU-lidstaat
van je consument. De Nederlandse KOR is dan niet langer van toepassing.
https://www.kvk.nl/advies-en-informatie/internationaal-ondernemen/e-commerce/btw-regels-voor-e-commerce-in-de-eu/
Then the group that still remains unaccounted for, as far as I can see, are the
margin VAT guys, who AFAIK are allowed to keep on applying their own profit-based
local VAT rate beyond the 10K limit. (law-wise. But Bricklink-wise??)
| |
(This doesn’t apply to margin VAT as you can’t reach the limit with margin VAT.)
| | If Bricklink will allow it is still unclear and I don't think
we've had any statements on that?
|
Crickets.
But there’s also a sad lack of explanations from our taxing overlords: no one
talks about our cases… well your cases. It seems they think everyone
selling for more than 10k€ in EU is already VAT-registered domestically.
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Well, better this way than if BL would be going all hard on us with rules that
seemed more strict than the law. I'm far under the threshold and certainly
not gonna pass it this year, so...
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Aug 8, 2021 13:50 | | Subject: | Re: VAT settings with a VAT exemption scheme | | Viewed: | 57 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, Teup writes:
| | […]
From the Dutch chamber of commerce site:
Wanneer je van de kleineondernemersregeling (KOR) gebruikmaakt, heb je een
jaarlijkse omzet van minder dan 20.000 euro. Door je deelname aan de KOR heb
je btw-vrijstelling. Wanneer je met je webshop de drempel van 10.000 euro aan
omzet in andere EU-lidstaten dan Nederland overschrijdt, word je btw-plichtig
in de betreffende EU-lidstaten. Op dat moment gelden de btw-regels van de EU-lidstaat
van je consument. De Nederlandse KOR is dan niet langer van toepassing.
https://www.kvk.nl/advies-en-informatie/internationaal-ondernemen/e-commerce/btw-regels-voor-e-commerce-in-de-eu/
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The last two sentences translate to “At that moment, the VAT rules of the EU
member state of your consumer apply. The Dutch [Small Business Regulation] is
then no longer applicable.”
The question is then Do they mean
— The Dutch KOR is then no longer applicable for this sale.
— or The Dutch KOR is then no longer applicable from now on for all your sales
and you have to change your status.
?
Ha ha ha… *goes crazy*
I really believe it’s the first interpretation (because “applicable” matches
the “apply” of the first sentence, so it’s about the one sale)… but the latter
interpretation is still a possibility. They can never write anything clear!
| | Then the group that still remains unaccounted for, as far as I can see, are the
margin VAT guys, who AFAIK are allowed to keep on applying their own profit-based
local VAT rate beyond the 10K limit. (law-wise. But Bricklink-wise??)
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No, no, they are good: there have been quotes here that margin VAT sales don’t
count, so they will never exceed the 10k€ threshold.
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Belgium
Germany, Baden-Württemberg
France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Ireland, Kerry
Netherlands, Utrecht