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| | | Author: | enig  | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 03:45 | | Subject: | Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 386 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | | Status: | Open | | Vote: | [Yes|No] | |
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| I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
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| | | | | Author: | Brickfinger | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 04:00 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 75 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| I'm voting "no" on this (although what I'm voting no on is a lil vague
to me.
I agree, the problem you mentioned happens, but it's up to buyers to work
it out. Buyers also have the option of "least favouriting" the stores that are
doing it obviously.
Makes sense?
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| | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 04:14 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 68 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Brickfinger writes:
| | I'm voting "no" on this (although what I'm voting no on is a lil vague
to me.
I agree, the problem you mentioned happens, but it's up to buyers to work
it out. Buyers also have the option of "least favouriting" the stores that are
doing it obviously.
Makes sense?
|
thank you for your vote and opinion - we need all points of view here.
I disagree though. Once you are shopping for a large number of lots (hundreds)
at once just how much time it would take for your to look over 20-30 shops terms
and conditions, work out exactly how much your grand total would be in each and
every store? With high number of different fees that each store has or has not,
and then try to juggle around trying to figure out what's the cheapest for
you?
Some projects are very expensive and I know people who are literally putting
their last pennies into their passion for LEGO. Spending 1000 EUR or 1100 EUR
is a big difference. And that's also the 100 EUR that some sellers get with
cheating the price guide, without working all the costs and extra profits straight
into their prices.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Bricktrain | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 04:48 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 59 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brickfinger writes:
| | I'm voting "no" on this (although what I'm voting no on is a lil vague
to me.
I agree, the problem you mentioned happens, but it's up to buyers to work
it out. Buyers also have the option of "least favouriting" the stores that are
doing it obviously.
Makes sense?
|
thank you for your vote and opinion - we need all points of view here.
I disagree though. Once you are shopping for a large number of lots (hundreds)
at once just how much time it would take for your to look over 20-30 shops terms
and conditions, work out exactly how much your grand total would be in each and
every store? With high number of different fees that each store has or has not,
and then try to juggle around trying to figure out what's the cheapest for
you?
Some projects are very expensive and I know people who are literally putting
their last pennies into their passion for LEGO. Spending 1000 EUR or 1100 EUR
is a big difference. And that's also the 100 EUR that some sellers get with
cheating the price guide, without working all the costs and extra profits straight
into their prices.
|
I agree on shopping via the price guide but if the fees are listed it is easy
enough to move away to another store, it is the ones that overcharge on shipping
that are the real robbers. Check my feedback if you want an example.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 05:14 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Bricktrain writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brickfinger writes:
| | I'm voting "no" on this (although what I'm voting no on is a lil vague
to me.
I agree, the problem you mentioned happens, but it's up to buyers to work
it out. Buyers also have the option of "least favouriting" the stores that are
doing it obviously.
Makes sense?
|
thank you for your vote and opinion - we need all points of view here.
I disagree though. Once you are shopping for a large number of lots (hundreds)
at once just how much time it would take for your to look over 20-30 shops terms
and conditions, work out exactly how much your grand total would be in each and
every store? With high number of different fees that each store has or has not,
and then try to juggle around trying to figure out what's the cheapest for
you?
Some projects are very expensive and I know people who are literally putting
their last pennies into their passion for LEGO. Spending 1000 EUR or 1100 EUR
is a big difference. And that's also the 100 EUR that some sellers get with
cheating the price guide, without working all the costs and extra profits straight
into their prices.
|
I agree on shopping via the price guide but if the fees are listed it is easy
enough to move away to another store
|
unfortunately "moving away" is not happening too often, and the stores with even
the most outrageous fees are racking up sales. We have many instances here on
forum of buyers sharing their experiences of getting a shock of their lives after
receiving the invoice.
So what's left for the rest, who are not charging any kind of fees? Either
sit and wait, hoping that some buyers show up... or mark your prices way down,
list some fees and see sales come in.
| | it is the ones that overcharge on shipping that are the real robbers. Check my feedback if you want an example.
|
saw that.. just cant check the sellers terms and conditions as the store is closed.
Unfortunately shipping is not something that can be coded to get included into
the Price Guide.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | eileenkeeney | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 14:20 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 55 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Bricktrain writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brickfinger writes:
| | I'm voting "no" on this (although what I'm voting no on is a lil vague
to me.
I agree, the problem you mentioned happens, but it's up to buyers to work
it out. Buyers also have the option of "least favouriting" the stores that are
doing it obviously.
Makes sense?
|
thank you for your vote and opinion - we need all points of view here.
I disagree though. Once you are shopping for a large number of lots (hundreds)
at once just how much time it would take for your to look over 20-30 shops terms
and conditions, work out exactly how much your grand total would be in each and
every store? With high number of different fees that each store has or has not,
and then try to juggle around trying to figure out what's the cheapest for
you?
Some projects are very expensive and I know people who are literally putting
their last pennies into their passion for LEGO. Spending 1000 EUR or 1100 EUR
is a big difference. And that's also the 100 EUR that some sellers get with
cheating the price guide, without working all the costs and extra profits straight
into their prices.
|
I agree on shopping via the price guide but if the fees are listed it is easy
enough to move away to another store, it is the ones that overcharge on shipping
that are the real robbers. Check my feedback if you want an example.
|
I would MUCH rather have a stated fee, than be overcharged for shipping.
I dislike the model of the new bricklink competitor, where fees are just hidden
inside shipping.
It is even more irritating when I am gouged on shipping, after completely forgiving
(without asking any compensation) mistakes on a previous order. (Sent me the
wrong part, but the one they did send me was useful anyway, and about the same
value).
But I feel like someone has decided I am easy to take advantage of.
But I won't likely complain to the seller. I will note it, and it will effect
my future purchasing decisions.
I don't expect perfection in the shipping calculation, but when the difference
is high (in comparison to total shipping cost), it is harder to think that it
was not an intentional overcharge.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Made_In_Bricks | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 14:43 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, eileenkeeney writes:
| | In Suggestions, Bricktrain writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brickfinger writes:
| | I'm voting "no" on this (although what I'm voting no on is a lil vague
to me.
I agree, the problem you mentioned happens, but it's up to buyers to work
it out. Buyers also have the option of "least favouriting" the stores that are
doing it obviously.
Makes sense?
|
thank you for your vote and opinion - we need all points of view here.
I disagree though. Once you are shopping for a large number of lots (hundreds)
at once just how much time it would take for your to look over 20-30 shops terms
and conditions, work out exactly how much your grand total would be in each and
every store? With high number of different fees that each store has or has not,
and then try to juggle around trying to figure out what's the cheapest for
you?
Some projects are very expensive and I know people who are literally putting
their last pennies into their passion for LEGO. Spending 1000 EUR or 1100 EUR
is a big difference. And that's also the 100 EUR that some sellers get with
cheating the price guide, without working all the costs and extra profits straight
into their prices.
|
I agree on shopping via the price guide but if the fees are listed it is easy
enough to move away to another store, it is the ones that overcharge on shipping
that are the real robbers. Check my feedback if you want an example.
|
I would MUCH rather have a stated fee, than be overcharged for shipping.
I dislike the model of the new bricklink competitor, where fees are just hidden
inside shipping.
|
These are two different thing
Stating a shipping price is not hiding fees into shipping,
If a store states shipping starts @ $2.50 that might be their exact cost to ship
a 3 ounce first class mail parcel
but a store that says we charge exact postage plus $0.81 (same price as above)
is charging a fee
while as a consumer you feel, hey it's the same price, what is the big deal.
As a business owner doing accounting they make a big difference. If you do accounts
based accounting.
See how it was explained to me by a tax accountant is that if you charge flat
rate shipping you can lump the costs differently than charging a handling fee.
If you charge the handling fee you have to set up seperate accounts and expense
things differently.
However different people's adivse on this might be different and I'm
not offereing advise.
I'm just saying while a consumer doesn;t see the difference in price, how
these things are stated do make a difference.
Just like I got the OK from my tax guy to hire "contractors" to work for me because
they go around with a flyer that says we mow lawns, we cut trees, we clean your
house, we'll do anything.
So although I am hiring them for something specific, they have other clients
and perform other services and I will just write 1099's for them.
Kind of the same thing for Mr. IRS I pay them the same, they do the work for
me, but it is all how it is defined.
Anyways, sorry to make something complicated even more complicated.
Ken
| | It is even more irritating when I am gouged on shipping, after completely forgiving
(without asking any compensation) mistakes on a previous order. (Sent me the
wrong part, but the one they did send me was useful anyway, and about the same
value).
But I feel like someone has decided I am easy to take advantage of.
But I won't likely complain to the seller. I will note it, and it will effect
my future purchasing decisions.
I don't expect perfection in the shipping calculation, but when the difference
is high (in comparison to total shipping cost), it is harder to think that it
was not an intentional overcharge.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | eileenkeeney | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 19:33 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, kanownik writes:
| | Anyways, sorry to make something complicated even more complicated.
Ken
|
OK,
So tax laws start to make what seemed simple, more complicated.
It is not that big of an issue to me.
Fees as fees, or fees as postage, as long as I know what I am paying.
But if all fees were fees (separate from postage), and one had to clearly state
them in a format that could be easily extracted and displayed in the price guide,
my task of finding a good deal would be easier.
In this case, I could assume reasonably equal postage (at least within the US).
It is only the excessive fees that push me away from a store.
I have been pleasantly surprised by the low shipping I get from some stores,
and I tend to make a note of that.
I am not sure I am always paying the lowest price I could, but at some point
my time has enough value to not want to take that kind of time.
I also have incentive to not want to push up average sold prices, if I am going
to want more of this part in the future.
In this case, paying a lower price, and higher fees, might serve me better in
the future.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Made_In_Bricks | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 19:40 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, eileenkeeney writes:
| | In Suggestions, kanownik writes:
| | Anyways, sorry to make something complicated even more complicated.
Ken
|
OK,
So tax laws start to make what seemed simple, more complicated.
|
They always do.
But this is also why I would love a priceline.com type system of "Sellers, this
is what I want, here is what I'll pay, anyone want to make a sale"
I'm waiting for a consumer goods site that will follow the priceline method
Ken
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Brettj666 | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 20:23 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 61 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, kanownik writes:
| | In Suggestions, eileenkeeney writes:
| | In Suggestions, kanownik writes:
| | Anyways, sorry to make something complicated even more complicated.
Ken
|
OK,
So tax laws start to make what seemed simple, more complicated.
|
They always do.
But this is also why I would love a priceline.com type system of "Sellers, this
is what I want, here is what I'll pay, anyone want to make a sale"
I'm waiting for a consumer goods site that will follow the priceline method
Ken
|
That happens through the forum sometimes.
I'm in the market for a sealed for $300 plus shipping. Anyone
want to sell one at that price
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Made_In_Bricks | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 21:55 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 57 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| you're only 39 dollars away from the cheapest for sale, didn't look it
up to read it if was damaged box or anything though
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb314137 | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 16:23 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Bricktrain writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brickfinger writes:
| | I'm voting "no" on this (although what I'm voting no on is a lil vague
to me.
I agree, the problem you mentioned happens, but it's up to buyers to work
it out. Buyers also have the option of "least favouriting" the stores that are
doing it obviously.
Makes sense?
|
thank you for your vote and opinion - we need all points of view here.
I disagree though. Once you are shopping for a large number of lots (hundreds)
at once just how much time it would take for your to look over 20-30 shops terms
and conditions, work out exactly how much your grand total would be in each and
every store? With high number of different fees that each store has or has not,
and then try to juggle around trying to figure out what's the cheapest for
you?
Some projects are very expensive and I know people who are literally putting
their last pennies into their passion for LEGO. Spending 1000 EUR or 1100 EUR
is a big difference. And that's also the 100 EUR that some sellers get with
cheating the price guide, without working all the costs and extra profits straight
into their prices.
|
I agree on shopping via the price guide but if the fees are listed it is easy
enough to move away to another store, it is the ones that overcharge on shipping
that are the real robbers. Check my feedback if you want an example.
|
Sincerely, not the attitude that I expected from here. It's like saying:
well, sellers can already update their sale prices by going through their items
one by one, so why fix the "My Inventory" page?!
What enig states here, in my opinion, makes the place in general better. Even
if you can do it already manually, why not make it automatical and save people
time?
It's not what you can't, it's what you can do better.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 08:44 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brickfinger writes:
| | I'm voting "no" on this (although what I'm voting no on is a lil vague
to me.
I agree, the problem you mentioned happens, but it's up to buyers to work
it out. Buyers also have the option of "least favouriting" the stores that are
doing it obviously.
Makes sense?
|
thank you for your vote and opinion - we need all points of view here.
I disagree though. Once you are shopping for a large number of lots (hundreds)
at once just how much time it would take for your to look over 20-30 shops terms
and conditions, work out exactly how much your grand total would be in each and
every store? With high number of different fees that each store has or has not,
and then try to juggle around trying to figure out what's the cheapest for
you?
Some projects are very expensive and I know people who are literally putting
their last pennies into their passion for LEGO. Spending 1000 EUR or 1100 EUR
is a big difference. And that's also the 100 EUR that some sellers get with
cheating the price guide, without working all the costs and extra profits straight
into their prices.
|
As goshe7 already point how your definition of "unfair" is almost personal, it's
the same for "cheating the price guide".... since it show the price of the part
and not their final price all inclusive. Then the cost could be more expensive
due to shipping as well. Like a minimum buy may push you to get part you don't
really need or you could get somewhere else cheaper, and sometime may even increase
shipping cost (and potentially the ratio additional expense/item). And one can
as well consider that hiding fees in the part price is cheating as well (since
it is a price per item, and not a description of all possible services provided).
And finally, the "all inclusive" price is really business oriented... but was
the site's philosophy to have every-one becoming a professional seller ?
Or was it that anyone that have spare part could offer them to user that need
it, to try to please every brick user ?
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | bb186511 | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 11:56 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| "And that's also the 100 EUR that some sellers get with
| | cheating the price guide, without working all the costs and extra profits straight
into their prices."
|
That's is where you will go wrong with the discussion. That is your personal
opinion. How do you expect to get a fair and civil conversation my making an
unjust accusation that sellers who charge fees and don't adjust them into
the prices are cheating the price guide just because maybe that's what you
would do?
I do charge a fee. And I consider it a very reasonable fee. Many of my customers
are return customers so I think they consider my fee reasonable as well. I have
an example for you as well. I will use my store for reference since I know my
fees and setup. I list 95% of my store at the 6 month sales average and charge
1.00 plus actual shipping. I am using my own domestic shipping for reference.
Example 1:
We will use 100 black
for this example
Store A adds 5% to the six month sales average when listing items. A customer
comes to the store. Buys 100 Black 2x4's with the six month's sales average
the net total is 9.45 plus 2.90 for actual shipping. The grand Total is 12.35
Store B (my store) If a customer makes the same sale the net total is 9.00 plus
2.90 for actual shipping plus 1.00 totaling 12.90.
In this first example the buy saves .55 to shop at the store with prices built
in.
Example 2:
Store A (my store) has a sale for 35.00 with a weight of 10 ounces. As previously
stated my store lists at the six months sales average. The total is 35.00 plus
1.00 plus 2.90 for shipping. The grand total is 38.90.
Store B get the exact same order which totals 36.75 with the 5% increase that
is added. The total of this order is 39.65.
In this example the customer pays more to shop at a store without fees. The difference
is still relatively small, however, what if it was a 100.00, 200.00, or even
higher order amount?
I do agree that we could do something to make it easier on the buyers. My idea
which I believe was already mentioned before would be to list the handling fee
for each store right next to where they list the minimum for each store. This
way when a buyer is scrolling through looking at items and prices they will see
on that very page the seller charges x amount for a handling fee. This would
allow them to make a decision right there if that is the store for them or not.
Hopefully I have contributed. Have a good day.
Gary
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 12:21 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Garys_Toys writes:
| | | | "And that's also the 100 EUR that some sellers get with
cheating the price guide, without working all the costs and extra profits straight
into their prices."
|
That's is where you will go wrong with the discussion. That is your personal
opinion. How do you expect to get a fair and civil conversation my making an
unjust accusation that sellers who charge fees and don't adjust them into
the prices are cheating the price guide just because maybe that's what you
would do?
|
I wrote some sellers as I do not think it is appropriate to put someone
on the spot here.. in no way I am saying that 'all' sellers who charge
extra fees are bad boys.
| |
I do charge a fee. And I consider it a very reasonable fee. Many of my customers
are return customers so I think they consider my fee reasonable as well.
|
There is no problem at all with the fee that you're charging Gary. The real
problem is people abusing that and charging lot fees, driving to the post office
fees and what not. If all that every seller is charging was a fixed $1 handling
fee then I would not be here writing this.
| | I have an example for you as well. I will use my store for reference since I know my
fees and setup. I list 95% of my store at the 6 month sales average and charge
1.00 plus actual shipping. I am using my own domestic shipping for reference.
Example 1:
We will use 100 black
for this example
Store A adds 5% to the six month sales average when listing items. A customer
comes to the store. Buys 100 Black 2x4's with the six month's sales average
the net total is 9.45 plus 2.90 for actual shipping. The grand Total is 12.35
Store B (my store) If a customer makes the same sale the net total is 9.00 plus
2.90 for actual shipping plus 1.00 totaling 12.90.
In this first example the buy saves .55 to shop at the store with prices built
in.
Example 2:
Store A (my store) has a sale for 35.00 with a weight of 10 ounces. As previously
stated my store lists at the six months sales average. The total is 35.00 plus
1.00 plus 2.90 for shipping. The grand total is 38.90.
Store B get the exact same order which totals 36.75 with the 5% increase that
is added. The total of this order is 39.65.
In this example the customer pays more to shop at a store without fees. The difference
is still relatively small, however, what if it was a 100.00, 200.00, or even
higher order amount?
|
and that is exactly what I have in mind, although your given example is very
'soft'. Once again it is the combined abuse of various % fees, lot fees
and other things that pile up, and makes the grand total to be $50+ or even more
at store B in your second example.
| |
I do agree that we could do something to make it easier on the buyers. My idea
which I believe was already mentioned before would be to list the handling fee
for each store right next to where they list the minimum for each store. This
way when a buyer is scrolling through looking at items and prices they will see
on that very page the seller charges x amount for a handling fee. This would
allow them to make a decision right there if that is the store for them or not.
Hopefully I have contributed. Have a good day.
Gary
|
Good idea I hope it finds it's way in 
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | helendeakin | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 17:18 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brickfinger writes:
| | I'm voting "no" on this (although what I'm voting no on is a lil vague
to me.
I agree, the problem you mentioned happens, but it's up to buyers to work
it out. Buyers also have the option of "least favouriting" the stores that are
doing it obviously.
Makes sense?
|
thank you for your vote and opinion - we need all points of view here.
I disagree though. Once you are shopping for a large number of lots (hundreds)
at once just how much time it would take for your to look over 20-30 shops terms
and conditions, work out exactly how much your grand total would be in each and
every store? With high number of different fees that each store has or has not,
and then try to juggle around trying to figure out what's the cheapest for
you?
Some projects are very expensive and I know people who are literally putting
their last pennies into their passion for LEGO. Spending 1000 EUR or 1100 EUR
is a big difference. And that's also the 100 EUR that some sellers get with
cheating the price guide, without working all the costs and extra profits straight
into their prices.
|
If people are crazy enough to pay stupid fees for postage or what have you then
let them be crazy. That is the perogative of each buyer, and if they don't
dig deep enough then it's there problem.
We pride ourselves on the fact of having close to the lowest prices for our items
and having very low additional charges (actual postage, no minimum sale, a handling
fee of $1.50).
In fact, and our customers will attest to this, if we ever overcharge on postage,
we refund the difference.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | helendeakin | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 18:10 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Brettj666 writes:
Fair point. Actually, these are our Lego investment portfolio - things that we've
purchased with the intent of them appreciating in value over time. But we just
shoved them out there with high prices in case somebody hits us up...
Minifigures is where we intend to have the majority of our items, and on those,
our prices are indisputeably good when considered as a group and the range we
have.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Brettj666 | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 20:14 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 55 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, helenjcarter writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brettj666 writes:
Fair point. Actually, these are our Lego investment portfolio - things that we've
purchased with the intent of them appreciating in value over time. But we just
shoved them out there with high prices in case somebody hits us up...
Minifigures is where we intend to have the majority of our items, and on those,
our prices are indisputeably good when considered as a group and the range we
have.
|
I do that as well, but no longer make them visible to the customer, I leave them
in the stockroom.
I used to do that, but 1) I found no one was going to be tricked into buying
something that was my goal price while others existed that were substantially
cheaper and 2) when I noticed that I would pick a sample of items that I knew
the price for and evaluated how out of the loop they were with prices.
If I only looked at your poly bags, I may have assumed you just double your price
on everything.
I then figured I must not be the only one doing that, so I stock roomed them.
I have a few Death Stars in my stock room at $1000 and there's no way that
I want someone judging my prices based on that common set
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 06:18 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 70 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
fair competition yes, I think there must be about enough documented in forum
posts and suggestions to keep the BL2 team thinking for a while on that one.
some of it is also pretty obvious from the site's POV in terms of fee avoidance
and I trust they will look at it from a commercial perspective as well as what
buyers and sellers think.
a series of debates managed by one member who says what other people can and
cannot say in their responses to the thread? Voted no.
Robert
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 06:44 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 59 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
fair competition yes, I think there must be about enough documented in forum
posts and suggestions to keep the BL2 team thinking for a while on that one.
some of it is also pretty obvious from the site's POV in terms of fee avoidance
and I trust they will look at it from a commercial perspective as well as what
buyers and sellers think.
a series of debates managed by one member who says what other people can and
cannot say in their responses to the thread? Voted no.
Robert
|
so you are voting no for exactly what then.
You can manage the debates Robert for all I care, but I dont see you or anyone
else doing it.
I think I made it clear why I asked not to expand into sub-topics.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 07:01 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 57 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
fair competition yes, I think there must be about enough documented in forum
posts and suggestions to keep the BL2 team thinking for a while on that one.
some of it is also pretty obvious from the site's POV in terms of fee avoidance
and I trust they will look at it from a commercial perspective as well as what
buyers and sellers think.
a series of debates managed by one member who says what other people can and
cannot say in their responses to the thread? Voted no.
Robert
|
so you are voting no for exactly what then.
|
I'm voting that those debates have been done (for now)
| | You can manage the debates Robert for all I care, but I dont see you or anyone
else doing it.
|
Admin and the owners of BL are doing it I believe, no of course I don't want
to manage it, like you I am one individual with one opinion. These issues have
been very well debated here (to death almost) and it would seem like a good idea
(IMHO) to let the owners come and ask if they need more data on this when they
are ready rather than try to do their job and fuel more fires here.
for the record, if you've not heard it enough already, my own opinion is
"invoice total = price of goods + shipping" where both price of goods and shipping
are determined by the seller. Other valid charges like applicable taxes have
to be worked into that equation of course. Any other "fees" which I think is
the whole purpose of this thread must have been debated here at least 100 times
by every regular forum poster.
Robert
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 11:19 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
fair competition yes, I think there must be about enough documented in forum
posts and suggestions to keep the BL2 team thinking for a while on that one.
some of it is also pretty obvious from the site's POV in terms of fee avoidance
and I trust they will look at it from a commercial perspective as well as what
buyers and sellers think.
a series of debates managed by one member who says what other people can and
cannot say in their responses to the thread? Voted no.
Robert
|
so you are voting no for exactly what then.
|
I'm voting that those debates have been done (for now)
| | You can manage the debates Robert for all I care, but I dont see you or anyone
else doing it.
|
Admin and the owners of BL are doing it I believe, no of course I don't want
to manage it, like you I am one individual with one opinion. These issues have
been very well debated here (to death almost) and it would seem like a good idea
(IMHO) to let the owners come and ask if they need more data on this when they
are ready rather than try to do their job and fuel more fires here.
for the record, if you've not heard it enough already, my own opinion is
"invoice total = price of goods + shipping" where both price of goods and shipping
are determined by the seller. Other valid charges like applicable taxes have
to be worked into that equation of course. Any other "fees" which I think is
the whole purpose of this thread must have been debated here at least 100 times
by every regular forum poster.
Robert
|
you are right Robert it all has been debated but I do have few ideas that have
not been discussed, or at least I could not find it.
It is probably better if I just compile it all into one and email straight to
Admin. From some replies it seems like there are more people ready to look for
a mis-used word or two and then have a debate about that, instead of real problems
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 11:26 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
fair competition yes, I think there must be about enough documented in forum
posts and suggestions to keep the BL2 team thinking for a while on that one.
some of it is also pretty obvious from the site's POV in terms of fee avoidance
and I trust they will look at it from a commercial perspective as well as what
buyers and sellers think.
a series of debates managed by one member who says what other people can and
cannot say in their responses to the thread? Voted no.
Robert
|
so you are voting no for exactly what then.
|
I'm voting that those debates have been done (for now)
| | You can manage the debates Robert for all I care, but I dont see you or anyone
else doing it.
|
Admin and the owners of BL are doing it I believe, no of course I don't want
to manage it, like you I am one individual with one opinion. These issues have
been very well debated here (to death almost) and it would seem like a good idea
(IMHO) to let the owners come and ask if they need more data on this when they
are ready rather than try to do their job and fuel more fires here.
for the record, if you've not heard it enough already, my own opinion is
"invoice total = price of goods + shipping" where both price of goods and shipping
are determined by the seller. Other valid charges like applicable taxes have
to be worked into that equation of course. Any other "fees" which I think is
the whole purpose of this thread must have been debated here at least 100 times
by every regular forum poster.
Robert
|
you are right Robert it all has been debated but I do have few ideas that have
not been discussed, or at least I could not find it.
It is probably better if I just compile it all into one and email straight to
Admin. From some replies it seems like there are more people ready to look for
a mis-used word or two and then have a debate about that, instead of real problems
|
yes, sorry my 1st reply was a little discouraging too! it was mostly the instruction
to not respond in certain ways.. that always puts me "off" a post big time 
but yes, this has been a bit over debated and you will not get agreement here
on this one, guaranteed!
If you think about those ideas in mine and your last posts does it not just point
to a restriction on fees as a better solution? % fees are easy to add into prices
of course but it is the per lot/labour charges that threaten the PG most and
those could not be calculated without first knowing what is in the order.. so
could not be reflected in the "for sale" prices but could be reflected in last
6 months sold.. however I'm in agreement with you over those.
Robert
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 12:07 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
fair competition yes, I think there must be about enough documented in forum
posts and suggestions to keep the BL2 team thinking for a while on that one.
some of it is also pretty obvious from the site's POV in terms of fee avoidance
and I trust they will look at it from a commercial perspective as well as what
buyers and sellers think.
a series of debates managed by one member who says what other people can and
cannot say in their responses to the thread? Voted no.
Robert
|
so you are voting no for exactly what then.
|
I'm voting that those debates have been done (for now)
| | You can manage the debates Robert for all I care, but I dont see you or anyone
else doing it.
|
Admin and the owners of BL are doing it I believe, no of course I don't want
to manage it, like you I am one individual with one opinion. These issues have
been very well debated here (to death almost) and it would seem like a good idea
(IMHO) to let the owners come and ask if they need more data on this when they
are ready rather than try to do their job and fuel more fires here.
for the record, if you've not heard it enough already, my own opinion is
"invoice total = price of goods + shipping" where both price of goods and shipping
are determined by the seller. Other valid charges like applicable taxes have
to be worked into that equation of course. Any other "fees" which I think is
the whole purpose of this thread must have been debated here at least 100 times
by every regular forum poster.
Robert
|
you are right Robert it all has been debated but I do have few ideas that have
not been discussed, or at least I could not find it.
It is probably better if I just compile it all into one and email straight to
Admin. From some replies it seems like there are more people ready to look for
a mis-used word or two and then have a debate about that, instead of real problems
|
yes, sorry my 1st reply was a little discouraging too! it was mostly the instruction
to not respond in certain ways.. that always puts me "off" a post big time
|
my very last intention is to personally tell someone what to do or to put someone
off Sorry you felt that way - I probably could have used a slightly better
approach with my 'instructions' and even the whole post all together.
On the other hand - some sellers here do need to be told what to do, as the situation
is out-of hand.
| | but yes, this has been a bit over debated and you will not get agreement here
on this one, guaranteed!
If you think about those ideas in mine and your last posts does it not just point
to a restriction on fees as a better solution? % fees are easy to add into prices
of course but it is the per lot/labour charges that threaten the PG most and
those could not be calculated without first knowing what is in the order.. so
could not be reflected in the "for sale" prices but could be reflected in last
6 months sold.. however I'm in agreement with you over those.
Robert
|
I completely agree. I am a fan of "no fees" and your equation is the one I would
like to see enforced upon all sellers.
Maybe with a single exception of payment fees, but maybe I am looking from my
own point of view too much here..
it is simply for being able to offer a wider range of payment options for the
buyer so the buyer can choose whatever fits him or her best, but without punishing
the seller for that. We can thank our banks and PayPal for having different fees
for cross-border payments
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 12:17 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | |
I completely agree. I am a fan of "no fees" and your equation is the one I would
like to see enforced upon all sellers.
Maybe with a single exception of payment fees, but maybe I am looking from my
own point of view too much here..
it is simply for being able to offer a wider range of payment options for the
buyer so the buyer can choose whatever fits him or her best, but without punishing
the seller for that. We can thank our banks and PayPal for having different fees
for cross-border payments
|
This whole fees thing is a non-issue if folks are sensible about it, the payment
fees are not a major one IMO although we don't charge them but we do charge
50p for packaging (which is commonly classed as a part of shipping), as others
have said this is a "fee" but it is not really what has caused the big debate.
It is when people take the.. well you know.. like the example we have a couple
of weeks ago of a seller adding 30% fees to a decent value order.. that is the
problem just like when we had people making their own currency exchange rates
which was stopped by AdminDan. Hopefully some common sense rules can be applied
that keep everyone in the game without ruining the site for all by killing the
PG or adding BL fees to shipping and all other charges.. which just escalates
the charge to the end user.
Robert
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 12:34 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | | |
I completely agree. I am a fan of "no fees" and your equation is the one I would
like to see enforced upon all sellers.
Maybe with a single exception of payment fees, but maybe I am looking from my
own point of view too much here..
it is simply for being able to offer a wider range of payment options for the
buyer so the buyer can choose whatever fits him or her best, but without punishing
the seller for that. We can thank our banks and PayPal for having different fees
for cross-border payments
|
This whole fees thing is a non-issue if folks are sensible about it, the payment
fees are not a major one IMO although we don't charge them but we do charge
50p for packaging (which is commonly classed as a part of shipping), as others
have said this is a "fee" but it is not really what has caused the big debate.
It is when people take the.. well you know.. like the example we have a couple
of weeks ago of a seller adding 30% fees to a decent value order.. that is the
problem just like when we had people making their own currency exchange rates
which was stopped by AdminDan. Hopefully some common sense rules can be applied
that keep everyone in the game without ruining the site for all by killing the
PG or adding BL fees to shipping and all other charges.. which just escalates
the charge to the end user.
Robert
|
YES! That's exactly why I started this post, but if I did it in that way
then it would have been no different to any other post. Wanted to approach it
from another angle but it has not quite worked out I thought it will.. My fault.
30% is extreme, but with all those lot fees, added fees, BL fees and all the
other crap, there are many, many sellers who end up charging 10-15% more on a
constant basis.
Also many times people will refer to it as "sales tax evasion"..... screw that.
No one cares about paying paying 60 extra cents for BrickLink by adding $20 worth
of fees to a $100 order. It's the extra $20 in profit that buyers are forced
to pay once the invoice lands. The $20 that is not worked into the price guide,
essentially stealing the sale from an unsuspecting customer (or wasting the time
of the suspecting ones).
From my point of view charging BL fee on the grand total like the auction sites
does would not solve the problem at all, as fee evasion is not the reason for
the extra fees.
Lukas
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Timothy_Smith | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 07:23 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I think I made it clear why I asked not to expand into sub-topics.
|
Eric has said that fees will be addressed as part of the new site's policies.
As for the root question- maybe people do shop like that.
But they shouldn't, so tools to automate the process aren't useful.
That's just my opinion. If you are spending a lot of money, and there's
no margin for error, then you really need to take the time to read each store's
terms. Fees are just one part of the store's T&C, you should read all of
it.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | QCBricks | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 20:22 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
fair competition yes, I think there must be about enough documented in forum
posts and suggestions to keep the BL2 team thinking for a while on that one.
some of it is also pretty obvious from the site's POV in terms of fee avoidance
and I trust they will look at it from a commercial perspective as well as what
buyers and sellers think.
a series of debates managed by one member who says what other people can and
cannot say in their responses to the thread? Voted no.
Robert
|
so you are voting no for exactly what then.
You can manage the debates Robert for all I care, but I dont see you or anyone
else doing it.
I think I made it clear why I asked not to expand into sub-topics.
|
There's your problem right there. Jumping all over someone who has given
far more than most to this community.
Scott
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 19, 2013 04:22 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, QCBricks writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
fair competition yes, I think there must be about enough documented in forum
posts and suggestions to keep the BL2 team thinking for a while on that one.
some of it is also pretty obvious from the site's POV in terms of fee avoidance
and I trust they will look at it from a commercial perspective as well as what
buyers and sellers think.
a series of debates managed by one member who says what other people can and
cannot say in their responses to the thread? Voted no.
Robert
|
so you are voting no for exactly what then.
You can manage the debates Robert for all I care, but I dont see you or anyone
else doing it.
I think I made it clear why I asked not to expand into sub-topics.
|
There's your problem right there. Jumping all over someone who has given
far more than most to this community.
Scott
|
There's your problem right there. Not reading what was said later before
you post, and jumping all over someone like he's an enemy of whole BL, while
all I want to do is to make this place better.
Lukas
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | goshe7 | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 08:08 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 58 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
|
I personally do most of my shopping from the Price Guide. I think the number
of BrickLink users that can answer this question based upon real information
(and not speculation) is few to none.
| | example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
|
Why? If a store discloses its fees, there should be no surprises on the Invoice.
| | 2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
|
Postage is lower for orders within the same country. So stores within the same
country as the buyer have an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores with more resources can offer a larger selection of parts, giving them
an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores with more resources can employ more people to facilitate fast order fulfillment,
giving them an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores operated by a neat and organized person can be run more reliably and speedily,
giving them an unfair competitive advantage
Stores operate that charge no fees other than postage, perhaps giving them an
unfair competitive advantage to savvy buyers who consider the total order cost.
Shall I continue? You'll have to convince me why lower prices and higher
fees is considered "unfair" and should be addressed while there are numerous
other inequalities that are accepted.
3) Smart buyers end up spending more time shopping to find the optimum deal
| |
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 10:55 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, goshe7 writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
|
I personally do most of my shopping from the Price Guide. I think the number
of BrickLink users that can answer this question based upon real information
(and not speculation) is few to none.
| | example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
|
Why? If a store discloses its fees, there should be no surprises on the Invoice.
| | 2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
|
Postage is lower for orders within the same country. So stores within the same
country as the buyer have an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores with more resources can offer a larger selection of parts, giving them
an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores with more resources can employ more people to facilitate fast order fulfillment,
giving them an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores operated by a neat and organized person can be run more reliably and speedily,
giving them an unfair competitive advantage
Stores operate that charge no fees other than postage, perhaps giving them an
unfair competitive advantage to savvy buyers who consider the total order cost.
Shall I continue? You'll have to convince me why lower prices and higher
fees is considered "unfair" and should be addressed while there are numerous
other inequalities that are accepted.
|
Instead of correcting me you chose to lean on my apparent wrong choice of the
term. I would like to think that you know exactly what I had in mind, but then
I wonder why you bothered to list your 'arguments' as they have nothing
to do with what is being discussed here.
| |
3) Smart buyers end up spending more time shopping to find the optimum deal
|
so you are saying that it is OK to force buyers to spend more time shopping?
As a buyer - do you not prefer to have a PG which lists the actual 'final'
prices, and the only thing you have to work out is shipping?
| | | |
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | goshe7 | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 12:44 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, goshe7 writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
|
I personally do most of my shopping from the Price Guide. I think the number
of BrickLink users that can answer this question based upon real information
(and not speculation) is few to none.
| | example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
|
Why? If a store discloses its fees, there should be no surprises on the Invoice.
| | 2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
|
Postage is lower for orders within the same country. So stores within the same
country as the buyer have an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores operate that charge no fees other than postage, perhaps giving them an
unfair competitive advantage to savvy buyers who consider the total order cost.
Shall I continue? You'll have to convince me why lower prices and higher
fees is considered "unfair" and should be addressed while there are numerous
other inequalities that are accepted.
|
Instead of correcting me you chose to lean on my apparent wrong choice of the
term. I would like to think that you know exactly what I had in mind, but then
I wonder why you bothered to list your 'arguments' as they have nothing
to do with what is being discussed here.
|
Please forgive me for giving replies to a thread title "Fair Competition" with
a sub heading of "Part 1 - Fair Competition" that asked a question regarding
buyers use of the Price Guide as a shopping decision making tool and its associated
consequences. I thought my replies relevant to the topic of "Fair Competetiton".
If all you wanted to know is the answer to your question, "Do you agree that
majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list to choose the shops
to buy from?" then ask it straightforward without loading the topic and thread
with explosive words and asking them to only reply to the idea that remains in
your mind.
| |
| |
3) Smart buyers end up spending more time shopping to find the optimum deal
|
so you are saying that it is OK to force buyers to spend more time shopping?
As a buyer - do you not prefer to have a PG which lists the actual 'final'
prices, and the only thing you have to work out is shipping?
|
I would like to think that you know exactly what I had in mind, but then
I wonder why you bothered to list your reply as it has nothing to do with what
is being discussed here.
My intent was to point out that, in this scenario, the buyer pays more. But
it is incorrect to say that they only pay more money (as I inferred from your
consequence 1).
| | | | | |
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | QCBricks | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 20:30 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, goshe7 writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
|
I personally do most of my shopping from the Price Guide. I think the number
of BrickLink users that can answer this question based upon real information
(and not speculation) is few to none.
| | example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
|
Why? If a store discloses its fees, there should be no surprises on the Invoice.
| | 2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
|
Postage is lower for orders within the same country. So stores within the same
country as the buyer have an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores with more resources can offer a larger selection of parts, giving them
an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores with more resources can employ more people to facilitate fast order fulfillment,
giving them an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores operated by a neat and organized person can be run more reliably and speedily,
giving them an unfair competitive advantage
Stores operate that charge no fees other than postage, perhaps giving them an
unfair competitive advantage to savvy buyers who consider the total order cost.
Shall I continue? You'll have to convince me why lower prices and higher
fees is considered "unfair" and should be addressed while there are numerous
other inequalities that are accepted.
|
Instead of correcting me you chose to lean on my apparent wrong choice of the
term. I would like to think that you know exactly what I had in mind, but then
I wonder why you bothered to list your 'arguments' as they have nothing
to do with what is being discussed here.
| |
3) Smart buyers end up spending more time shopping to find the optimum deal
|
so you are saying that it is OK to force buyers to spend more time shopping?
As a buyer - do you not prefer to have a PG which lists the actual 'final'
prices, and the only thing you have to work out is shipping?
| | | |
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
|
|
How can someone force someone else to "spend more time shopping" over the Internet?
If you can answer that, I think Amazon might want to speak with you.
As with all of these sort of "cost minimization" ideas, I think that people will
be sorely mistaken if they think it will be all peaches and honey. There are
many large stores here with significant resources...and just as some sort of
automated forced cost minimization will benefit regular buyers, it will also
help them buy out cheap stores and jack up prices.
If you think that stores with $300K+ inventories will sit idly by doing nothing
or simply drop their prices under such a system...I'd be willing to bet you
are wrong.
Scott
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 19, 2013 04:14 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, QCBricks writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, goshe7 writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
|
I personally do most of my shopping from the Price Guide. I think the number
of BrickLink users that can answer this question based upon real information
(and not speculation) is few to none.
| | example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
|
Why? If a store discloses its fees, there should be no surprises on the Invoice.
| | 2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
|
Postage is lower for orders within the same country. So stores within the same
country as the buyer have an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores with more resources can offer a larger selection of parts, giving them
an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores with more resources can employ more people to facilitate fast order fulfillment,
giving them an unfair competitive advantage.
Stores operated by a neat and organized person can be run more reliably and speedily,
giving them an unfair competitive advantage
Stores operate that charge no fees other than postage, perhaps giving them an
unfair competitive advantage to savvy buyers who consider the total order cost.
Shall I continue? You'll have to convince me why lower prices and higher
fees is considered "unfair" and should be addressed while there are numerous
other inequalities that are accepted.
|
Instead of correcting me you chose to lean on my apparent wrong choice of the
term. I would like to think that you know exactly what I had in mind, but then
I wonder why you bothered to list your 'arguments' as they have nothing
to do with what is being discussed here.
| |
3) Smart buyers end up spending more time shopping to find the optimum deal
|
so you are saying that it is OK to force buyers to spend more time shopping?
As a buyer - do you not prefer to have a PG which lists the actual 'final'
prices, and the only thing you have to work out is shipping?
| | | |
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
|
|
How can someone force someone else to "spend more time shopping" over the Internet?
If you can answer that, I think Amazon might want to speak with you.
|
seem like Amazon has loads to learn from Bl then! Give them them a wanted-list
of 100 lots and directing to BL, having them to figure out a way to spend as
little as possible.
How much time would they spend putting their orders together under current system,
and how much time could they save if PG reflected 'true prices(costs of buying
from certain stores)' + shipping?
| |
As with all of these sort of "cost minimization" ideas, I think that people will
be sorely mistaken if they think it will be all peaches and honey. There are
many large stores here with significant resources...and just as some sort of
automated forced cost minimization will benefit regular buyers, it will also
help them buy out cheap stores and jack up prices.
If you think that stores with $300K+ inventories will sit idly by doing nothing
or simply drop their prices under such a system...I'd be willing to bet you
are wrong.
Scott
|
I was beginning to get aggravated by the vast amount of misinterpretations that
were given birth in this discussion. But now I am just smiling
At what point did I ever even mentioned anything about this having
anything to do with lowering prices?
Do you really not get what this is all about?
Lukas
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | happygolucky | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 08:17 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 52 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Just want to make sure I understand correctly, is the question:
| | Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
|
YES or NO?
or is the question:
| |
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
|
YES or NO?
| | results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Made_In_Bricks | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 09:30 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 61 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| There are other ways to "manipulate" the price guide to attract busniess.
Another tactic is to price certain parts super low but then they are attached
to a superlot.
This is a popular tactic with the CMF. A few stores have the Zombie from series
1 priced the lowest in the catalog but then you look at the super lot for the
whole set and the others are jacked up. This also occurs with some other parts
that are sub parts of another part. All and all it is just a way to pull in
customers.
This happens in B&M stores with all kinds of sales and other tactics.
Comparative shopping is an art and any guidelines and rules that are laid down
by Bricklink Limited will be manipulated somehow or another.
You will still have to fill carts and compare total costs when buying multiple
parts, etc
including asking sellers for a quote on shipping (unless they go automated shipping)
to be 100% sure
Thanks,
Ken
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | BLUSER_275369 | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 09:54 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 65 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| This is certainly true. But superlots can be excluded in searches, right?
How about doing the same with extra fees?
Sellers have to select if they charge extra fees (and how much) in the same way
as they select payment options, minimum buy etc in their store settings.
Then the search engine could use that info to exclude or include stores with
extra fees at the buyers discretion.
This would also make the extra fees easier to find in the store terms. Sometimes
one has to read through a lot of fine print to find whether or not there are
any.
Personally I don't mind the extra fees as much as long as they are clearly
listed. I have found many stores that still have lower prices even if they charge
$1 or so for packing material or so. I'm more irked by stores that use a
1 size fits all shipping option, for example shipping everything via priority.
I have recently bought the 4 different Fantasy Era Dragons from 4 different sellers.
3 shipped regular 1st class mail and 4th shipped it with priority in a box that
was way too large (maybe the only box he had) and the cost was more than 3 times
higher than with the other orders.
Sylvia
In Suggestions, kanownik writes:
| | There are other ways to "manipulate" the price guide to attract busniess.
Another tactic is to price certain parts super low but then they are attached
to a superlot.
This is a popular tactic with the CMF. A few stores have the Zombie from series
1 priced the lowest in the catalog but then you look at the super lot for the
whole set and the others are jacked up. This also occurs with some other parts
that are sub parts of another part. All and all it is just a way to pull in
customers.
This happens in B&M stores with all kinds of sales and other tactics.
Comparative shopping is an art and any guidelines and rules that are laid down
by Bricklink Limited will be manipulated somehow or another.
You will still have to fill carts and compare total costs when buying multiple
parts, etc
including asking sellers for a quote on shipping (unless they go automated shipping)
to be 100% sure
Thanks,
Ken
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 10:12 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rogue11 writes:
| | This is certainly true. But superlots can be excluded in searches, right?
How about doing the same with extra fees?
Sellers have to select if they charge extra fees (and how much) in the same way
as they select payment options, minimum buy etc in their store settings.
Then the search engine could use that info to exclude or include stores with
extra fees at the buyers discretion.
This would also make the extra fees easier to find in the store terms. Sometimes
one has to read through a lot of fine print to find whether or not there are
any.
Personally I don't mind the extra fees as much as long as they are clearly
listed. I have found many stores that still have lower prices even if they charge
$1 or so for packing material or so. I'm more irked by stores that use a
1 size fits all shipping option, for example shipping everything via priority.
I have recently bought the 4 different Fantasy Era Dragons from 4 different sellers.
3 shipped regular 1st class mail and 4th shipped it with priority in a box that
was way too large (maybe the only box he had) and the cost was more than 3 times
higher than with the other orders.
Sylvia
|
IRRC the idea for BL2 was to have the total cost visible at checkout BEFORE committing
to an order which would make total price comparison possible (in theory but it
will not be that easy to implement!). If all other charges have to be classed
as "shipping" then this would be simple but if you start systemising other odd
fees then it encourages (some) sellers to over use them to make their per part
prices look lower in the PG and this, in effect completely invalidates the PG
as the selling price history becomes completely random as you never would know
which sales were actual and which were subject to tagged on fees which don't
show in the PG. The concept of charging add-on fees that amount to a significant
part of the order is simply non-compatible with the design and functionality
of the site which is based on the PG.. If we want the PG to remain of any use
whatsoever, we have to avoid stripping out costs from the parts and calling them
something else or.. find a way that the system adds those fess back to the base
prices when an order is placed (i.e. allocates those costs to each part in the
order and reflects that price in the PG as the sold figure). Rather a complicated
way of just saying no funny fees IMO but I'm interested to see what they
come up with.
Robert
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 11:09 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rogue11 writes:
| | This is certainly true. But superlots can be excluded in searches, right?
How about doing the same with extra fees?
Sellers have to select if they charge extra fees (and how much) in the same way
as they select payment options, minimum buy etc in their store settings.
Then the search engine could use that info to exclude or include stores with
extra fees at the buyers discretion.
This would also make the extra fees easier to find in the store terms. Sometimes
one has to read through a lot of fine print to find whether or not there are
any.
Personally I don't mind the extra fees as much as long as they are clearly
listed. I have found many stores that still have lower prices even if they charge
$1 or so for packing material or so. I'm more irked by stores that use a
1 size fits all shipping option, for example shipping everything via priority.
I have recently bought the 4 different Fantasy Era Dragons from 4 different sellers.
3 shipped regular 1st class mail and 4th shipped it with priority in a box that
was way too large (maybe the only box he had) and the cost was more than 3 times
higher than with the other orders.
Sylvia
|
IRRC the idea for BL2 was to have the total cost visible at checkout BEFORE committing
to an order which would make total price comparison possible (in theory but it
will not be that easy to implement!). If all other charges have to be classed
as "shipping" then this would be simple but if you start systemising other odd
fees then it encourages (some) sellers to over use them to make their per part
prices look lower in the PG and this, in effect completely invalidates the PG
as the selling price history becomes completely random as you never would know
which sales were actual and which were subject to tagged on fees which don't
show in the PG. The concept of charging add-on fees that amount to a significant
part of the order is simply non-compatible with the design and functionality
of the site which is based on the PG.. If we want the PG to remain of any use
whatsoever, we have to avoid stripping out costs from the parts and calling them
something else or.. find a way that the system adds those fess back to the base
prices when an order is placed (i.e. allocates those costs to each part in the
order and reflects that price in the PG as the sold figure). Rather a complicated
way of just saying no funny fees IMO but I'm interested to see what they
come up with.
Robert
|
adding the fees 'back' to the base price is even worse I think. It will
mean that sellers who charge fees (have their base prices lower) will get even
higher in PG.
My idea would be to system-calculate all the fees into the prices, so PG will
show the 'final' prices, even if they are different from what seller
inputs in his store inventory.
PP fees - whatever sellers selects their PP fee - it gets added into the price.
You can have different % for different regions, it's not that hard to code
things like that.
Some sellers have BL fee - good, into the price it goes
Fees that are based on lot counts, lot sizes or whatever else.. they should not
exist at all.
For a change I would like to invite everyone to go to www.bricklink.com and read
what it says at the top.
BrickLink.com is a venue for individuals and businesses from all around the
world to buy and sell new, used and vintage LEGO® through fixed price services..
This is not a place to sell your packing supplies, your time or anything else
not LEGO related.
So in the scenario that I propose - say seller's base price for a part is
0.50 but he has 3% BL fee, 5% PP fee. That would show up as 0.54 in PG
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | randyf | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 18:19 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | For a change I would like to invite everyone to go to www.bricklink.com and read
what it says at the top.
BrickLink.com is a venue for individuals and businesses from all around the
world to buy and sell new, used and vintage LEGO® through fixed price services..
This is not a place to sell your packing supplies, your time or anything else
not LEGO related.
|
Unfortunately, it is you who is misinterpreting that statement.
The fixed price services in that statement refers to *BrickLink's*
fixed price services (i.e. fixed at 3% of your sales from running a store here).
It *does not* refer to anything about any seller here and what each of them choose
to do.
Cheers,
Randy
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 19:03 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, randyf writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | For a change I would like to invite everyone to go to www.bricklink.com and read
what it says at the top.
BrickLink.com is a venue for individuals and businesses from all around the
world to buy and sell new, used and vintage LEGO® through fixed price services..
This is not a place to sell your packing supplies, your time or anything else
not LEGO related.
|
Unfortunately, it is you who is misinterpreting that statement.
The fixed price services in that statement refers to *BrickLink's*
fixed price services (i.e. fixed at 3% of your sales from running a store here).
It *does not* refer to anything about any seller here and what each of them choose
to do.
Cheers,
Randy
|
dear god..... please give me strength.
BrickLink.com is a venue for individuals and businesses from all around the
world to buy and sell new, used and vintage LEGO® through fixed price
services.
does this look better?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Timothy_Smith | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 19:14 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, randyf writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | For a change I would like to invite everyone to go to www.bricklink.com and read
what it says at the top.
BrickLink.com is a venue for individuals and businesses from all around the
world to buy and sell new, used and vintage LEGO® through fixed price services..
This is not a place to sell your packing supplies, your time or anything else
not LEGO related.
|
Unfortunately, it is you who is misinterpreting that statement.
The fixed price services in that statement refers to *BrickLink's*
fixed price services (i.e. fixed at 3% of your sales from running a store here).
It *does not* refer to anything about any seller here and what each of them choose
to do.
Cheers,
Randy
|
dear god..... please give me strength.
BrickLink.com is a venue for individuals and businesses from all around the
world to buy and sell new, used and vintage LEGO® through fixed price
services.
does this look better?
|
Fixed-price means "no auctions"
It doesn't mean "no fees".
gotta say, this is a unique direction for the Same Old Argument to go.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 19:24 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Timothy_Smith writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, randyf writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | For a change I would like to invite everyone to go to www.bricklink.com and read
what it says at the top.
BrickLink.com is a venue for individuals and businesses from all around the
world to buy and sell new, used and vintage LEGO® through fixed price services..
This is not a place to sell your packing supplies, your time or anything else
not LEGO related.
|
Unfortunately, it is you who is misinterpreting that statement.
The fixed price services in that statement refers to *BrickLink's*
fixed price services (i.e. fixed at 3% of your sales from running a store here).
It *does not* refer to anything about any seller here and what each of them choose
to do.
Cheers,
Randy
|
dear god..... please give me strength.
BrickLink.com is a venue for individuals and businesses from all around the
world to buy and sell new, used and vintage LEGO® through fixed price
services.
does this look better?
|
Fixed-price means "no auctions"
It doesn't mean "no fees".
gotta say, this is a unique direction for the Same Old Argument to go.
|
"buy and sell new, used and vintage LEGO®"
does not mean "sell your fees"
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Timothy_Smith | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 19:39 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Sigh.
"No fees!"
but no fees means high minimum orders
"No outrageous fees!"
define outrageous
"No hidden fees!"
it's right there in the T&C
"I want to shop without reading, thinking or exercising responsibility"
try Amazon
"I want a better shipping price than Amazon gives me, and a more personal experience"
and now the circle has been jerked all the way around
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 20:05 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Timothy_Smith writes:
| | Sigh.
"No fees!"
but no fees means high minimum orders
|
$1 or whatever small fixed fee is not the reason for this topic
| |
"No outrageous fees!"
define outrageous
|
http://www.google.lt/search?q=outrageos
| |
"No hidden fees!"
it's right there in the T&C
|
Hidden from PG
| | "I want to shop without reading, thinking or exercising responsibility"
try Amazon
|
why make buyers spend a lot of extra time in reading dozens of T&C's, while
it can be avoided? And why have PG at all, for that matter. Should be renamed
to "Price List" the way it works now.
| | "I want a better shipping price than Amazon gives me, and a more personal experience"
and now the circle has been jerked all the way around
|
What about a personal experience that many new (and not only new) users get when
they have to deal with having to waste tons of time unnecessary, receiving invoices
with outrageous fees, and not having anyone to help them.
why argue for the sake of arguing?
Lukas
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | randyf | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 22:23 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 58 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | why make buyers spend a lot of extra time in reading dozens of T&C's, while
it can be avoided? And why have PG at all, for that matter. Should be renamed
to "Price List" the way it works now.
|
I have no idea why this topic is so difficult and gets beat to death endlessly.
Seriously, why does BrickLink have to hold everyone's hand? 
You have to be a legal adult (18 years old) to even be here, so I expect people
to act like adults and be able to burden the responsibility of purchasing what
they would like from whom they would like without a bunch of big brother arm-wringing.
If you aren't a smart shopper, so be it. You lose.
Also, the Price Guide is just that. A *GUIDE*. It can be manipulated,
and it is manipulated. It is each seller's responsibility to make sure that
the information contained therein is taken with a grain of salt.
In all honesty, your posts sound like you want the nature of capitalistic competition
thrown out the window completely. Competition in its purest form is not fair
and never can be. Just like life.
Regards,
Randy
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Jul 19, 2013 05:40 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Timothy_Smith writes:
|
| | | | "I want to shop without reading, thinking or exercising responsibility"
try Amazon
|
why make buyers spend a lot of extra time in reading dozens of T&C's, while
it can be avoided? And why have PG at all, for that matter. Should be renamed
to "Price List" the way it works now.
|
the specificity of BL is that you can buy from hundred of sellers from all over
the world.... when amazon and many other online shop deal only on national scale.
Then you will always have to read T&C because of different national rules...
| | | | "I want a better shipping price than Amazon gives me, and a more personal experience"
and now the circle has been jerked all the way around
|
What about a personal experience that many new (and not only new) users get when
they have to deal with having to waste tons of time unnecessary, receiving invoices
with outrageous fees, and not having anyone to help them.
|
And because of this thread, I was thinking that the may problem is specially
because or new buyer (many haven't really read BL's T&C) who believed
to be on a "standard" sell-site (a "1 seller with 1 delivery zone" like). Hence,
maybe a "compulsory" tutorial could be an idea. I mean after registering, to
get buying privilege, one should go through a first "simple" simulation that
underlines that each store is different and personal (not manage by BL, like
amazon can do). Then, getting the habit to have a quick look on store terms before
ordering could avoid many of the complaint you are pointing at...?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 19, 2013 06:36 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Timothy_Smith writes:
|
| | | | "I want to shop without reading, thinking or exercising responsibility"
try Amazon
|
why make buyers spend a lot of extra time in reading dozens of T&C's, while
it can be avoided? And why have PG at all, for that matter. Should be renamed
to "Price List" the way it works now.
|
the specificity of BL is that you can buy from hundred of sellers from all over
the world.... when amazon and many other online shop deal only on national scale.
Then you will always have to read T&C because of different national rules...
|
National rules dont have much to do with the issue I am trying to address. What
is see as an issue is some sellers making their prices look cheap which get their
parts to show up lower in the Price Guide, while in reality they add a variety
of fees when invoicing. It makes the Price Guide not work the way it should.
From the way the topic is going it seems like it's more like a "national
way of thinking" what is lurking deep inside here, preventing from understanding
each other. And that's where you need someone with far better communication
and diplomatic skills than mine to address this.
| | | | | | "I want a better shipping price than Amazon gives me, and a more personal experience"
and now the circle has been jerked all the way around
|
What about a personal experience that many new (and not only new) users get when
they have to deal with having to waste tons of time unnecessary, receiving invoices
with outrageous fees, and not having anyone to help them.
|
And because of this thread, I was thinking that the may problem is specially
because or new buyer (many haven't really read BL's T&C) who believed
to be on a "standard" sell-site (a "1 seller with 1 delivery zone" like). Hence,
maybe a "compulsory" tutorial could be an idea. I mean after registering, to
get buying privilege, one should go through a first "simple" simulation that
underlines that each store is different and personal (not manage by BL, like
amazon can do). Then, getting the habit to have a quick look on store terms before
ordering could avoid many of the complaint you are pointing at...?
|
You are right BL is special and different, but it does not mean that we should
not try and make it easier for buyers to use it. Different postage rates, different
definitions of 'parcel' and 'letter' in different countries...
different currencies.. import taxes.. is not that enough info for an average
buyer to deal with?
On top of that some sellers add lot fees, lot limits, service fees, BrickLink
fees, payment fees, going to the post office fees, flat fees..
As I wrote above - without calculating fees into their listing prices those sellers
are essentially cheating the Price Guide, generating traffic and sales in an
unfair way.
Tutorial idea - in theory maybe it would serve the purpose, but in reality I
think it would just put many people off. Each extra step required to go through
before making a purchase makes it more and more likely for the buyer to go 'screw
this, they are making it too complicated - I am outta here'.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Timothy_Smith | | Posted: | Jul 19, 2013 07:19 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 26 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | As I wrote above - without calculating fees into their listing prices those sellers
are essentially cheating the Price Guide, generating traffic and sales in an
unfair way.
|
So are you mad that your prices are being undercut?
Are you mad that you paid a fee because you didn't read store terms?
Or are you mad because the Price Guide is just a guide?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 19, 2013 07:37 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Timothy_Smith writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | As I wrote above - without calculating fees into their listing prices those sellers
are essentially cheating the Price Guide, generating traffic and sales in an
unfair way.
|
So are you mad that your prices are being undercut?
Are you mad that you paid a fee because you didn't read store terms?
Or are you mad because the Price Guide is just a guide?
|
Tim I have not started this thread because of any personal event. I simply dont
like anyone taking advantage over anything in an unfair way.
For example LEGO is much cheaper in USA but I am not writing to TLG and complaining
about it, saying that it's destroying my BL business. There is not point
in doing that. But I believe that some wrong-doings that are bring practiced
here can and should be stopped.
Let it be my (and other sellers) prices being undercut, let it be buyers getting
cheated into paying higher prices than they thought they will, let it be Price
Guide becoming a Price List and not serving it's intended purpose.
Seems that many people have very different understanding of what is cheating/fair/taking
unfair advantage etc or they are comfortable enough with the unfairness
and for some reason prefer to not do anything about it.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Timothy_Smith | | Posted: | Jul 19, 2013 07:59 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | Seems that many people have very different understanding of what is cheating/fair/taking
unfair advantage etc
|
Yes, I believe this is the issue. It's a cultural difference.
I see the current situation as quite fair, more so than other online retailers.
I find the Price Guide to be useful, though imperfect.
I enjoy the freedom to buy and sell as best suits me.
I believe the free market is the solution to this issue, not regulation.
I know for a fact that adding more rules creates more loopholes.
Anyway, it's all moot.
None of this applies to BL 2.0 at all.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Jul 19, 2013 08:28 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Timothy_Smith writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | Seems that many people have very different understanding of what is cheating/fair/taking
unfair advantage etc
|
Yes, I believe this is the issue. It's a cultural difference.
I see the current situation as quite fair, more so than other online retailers.
I find the Price Guide to be useful, though imperfect.
I enjoy the freedom to buy and sell as best suits me.
I believe the free market is the solution to this issue, not regulation.
I know for a fact that adding more rules creates more loopholes.
Anyway, it's all moot.
None of this applies to BL 2.0 at all.
|
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin
But not only a problem of culture.... maybe of different experiences of automation/harmonisation
tools. Because for 3% of fees, and with all the possibilities offered by BL,
I doubt it's reasonable to expect from this site to manage every "exceptional"
point....
IMO
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 26, 2013 15:44 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Timothy_Smith writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | Seems that many people have very different understanding of what is cheating/fair/taking
unfair advantage etc
|
Yes, I believe this is the issue. It's a cultural difference.
|
there are many cultural differences but I do find this particular to be quite
hard to comprehend (to me). Tricking your buyers and false-advertising your prices
is very much not acceptable where I live.
| |
I see the current situation as quite fair, more so than other online retailers.
|
give this some more time and the tables may turn.
| | I find the Price Guide to be useful, though imperfect.
|
It's more like a "price list" than "price guide" then.
| | I enjoy the freedom to buy and sell as best suits me.
|
me too, but there are some who are spoiling this freedom of ours, by over-using
theirs
| | I believe the free market is the solution to this issue, not regulation.
|
regulation of what? If you're referring to regulation of prices then that's
absolutely not what I had in mind. But then I dont understand why you actually
mentioned this.
| | I know for a fact that adding more rules creates more loopholes.
|
Exactly. Current rules are exactly the reason for the mess we're talking
about.
| |
Anyway, it's all moot.
None of this applies to BL 2.0 at all.
|
100% of this applies to BL 2.0 because at this moment we have no idea what it
will be like, so if there's a time to change something now is a good time.
We have a special term here in Europe. It's called false-advertising.
Shops here at BL which are significantly increasing the grand totals by using
their fee systems are essentially false-advertising their prices in Price Guide
and wanted-list emails.
Saying "hey we've got the piece you need for 0.5 EUR" but then issuing invoice
which essentially makes the customer pay considerably more (not talking about
shipping costs) is exactly that.
This is actually punishable by law in Europe. Isn't it the same in US?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | eileenkeeney | | Posted: | Jul 26, 2013 16:25 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 64 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | 100% of this applies to BL 2.0 because at this moment we have no idea what it
will be like, so if there's a time to change something now is a good time.
We have a special term here in Europe. It's called false-advertising.
Shops here at BL which are significantly increasing the grand totals by using
their fee systems are essentially false-advertising their prices in Price Guide
and wanted-list emails.
Saying "hey we've got the piece you need for 0.5 EUR" but then issuing invoice
which essentially makes the customer pay considerably more (not talking about
shipping costs) is exactly that.
This is actually punishable by law in Europe. Isn't it the same in US?
|
False is against the law, but is highly interpretable.
It is ok to use a set of true statements all designed to mislead the audience
into believing something that is not true.
This is what is often used.
I find it very irritating.
I can not listen to advertising without getting really irritated at this practice.
I would like a law that made it illegal to mislead.
But proof would be complicated.
Another technique is to put the less attractive parts of the truth in print that
is very tiny.
I don't think anything on bricklink gets as close to misleading as what I
see in the advertising in the general market place, and in political campaigns.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Jul 19, 2013 08:21 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | But I believe that some wrong-doings that are bring practiced
here can and should be stopped.
|
Questions of priority, there are many other point more important that the ones
discussed here. As an example seller who don't respect BL rules concerning
item description...
| |
Let it be my (and other sellers) prices being undercut, let it be buyers getting
cheated into paying higher prices than they thought they will, let it be Price
Guide becoming a Price List and not serving it's intended purpose.
|
I don't believe there is always a way to prevent people to use strangely
available features... And there are many other way to be mislead with the PG
: for a used or incomplete set, what was/is included within the item and in which
condition? Another example, I once get very cheap part that revealed to be "crappy"...
but for this price, even if the description didn't told so, what could I
really expect ? And the BL's description guide say that the condition "should"
be more accurate if not in very good quality... Hence, even BL's rule may
conduct to wrong interpretation with the PG, without the question of the fees
to highlighted.
| |
Seems that many people have very different understanding of what is cheating/fair/taking
unfair advantage etc or they are comfortable enough with the unfairness
and for some reason prefer to not do anything about it.
|
Speaking about what is fair, as I have to abide to my national rules, any order
place could be considered as a contract, since contract rules here tell that
many point should be included, including everything related to shipping and other
added services beside the items. Then, to be "fair", that BL's rules that
may prevent to act so (and in many EU country it's the same). Then I would
say that what you point as a "problem" isn't the tru one. The main is the
possibility for buyer to cancel the order (no professional here, and in EU I
think, could refuse that) when you see this extra-fees. Even if some were display
on store terms, because some are more like "guide" than a true quote corresponding
to each order.
And I may think that the "bad" experience you point at, are really this for new
comer. And for them, that the accessibility (in a friendly way) of the "help"
section and in their native language that could be more important (I use to explain
many point to French buyer..... because like English speaking people, we are
often lazy to learn a foreign one ).
Anyway, if people want a very simple way to shop, they may still prefer to shop
on a more "traditional" site, with less choice and sometimes more expensive items.
Bl, as any tool, need to take a few time to be at ease with....
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | QCBricks | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 20:35 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 62 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Timothy_Smith writes:
| | Sigh.
"No fees!"
but no fees means high minimum orders
"No outrageous fees!"
define outrageous
"No hidden fees!"
it's right there in the T&C
"I want to shop without reading, thinking or exercising responsibility"
try Amazon
"I want a better shipping price than Amazon gives me, and a more personal experience"
and now the circle has been jerked all the way around
|
Gonna go ahead and nominate that for post of the month.
Scott
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Timothy_Smith | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 19:03 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rogue11 writes:
| | This is certainly true. But superlots can be excluded in searches, right?
How about doing the same with extra fees?
Sellers have to select if they charge extra fees (and how much) in the same way
as they select payment options, minimum buy etc in their store settings.
Then the search engine could use that info to exclude or include stores with
extra fees at the buyers discretion.
This would also make the extra fees easier to find in the store terms. Sometimes
one has to read through a lot of fine print to find whether or not there are
any.
Personally I don't mind the extra fees as much as long as they are clearly
listed. I have found many stores that still have lower prices even if they charge
$1 or so for packing material or so. I'm more irked by stores that use a
1 size fits all shipping option, for example shipping everything via priority.
I have recently bought the 4 different Fantasy Era Dragons from 4 different sellers.
3 shipped regular 1st class mail and 4th shipped it with priority in a box that
was way too large (maybe the only box he had) and the cost was more than 3 times
higher than with the other orders.
Sylvia
|
IRRC the idea for BL2 was to have the total cost visible at checkout BEFORE committing
to an order which would make total price comparison possible (in theory but it
will not be that easy to implement!). If all other charges have to be classed
as "shipping" then this would be simple but if you start systemising other odd
fees then it encourages (some) sellers to over use them to make their per part
prices look lower in the PG and this, in effect completely invalidates the PG
as the selling price history becomes completely random as you never would know
which sales were actual and which were subject to tagged on fees which don't
show in the PG. The concept of charging add-on fees that amount to a significant
part of the order is simply non-compatible with the design and functionality
of the site which is based on the PG.. If we want the PG to remain of any use
whatsoever, we have to avoid stripping out costs from the parts and calling them
something else or.. find a way that the system adds those fess back to the base
prices when an order is placed (i.e. allocates those costs to each part in the
order and reflects that price in the PG as the sold figure). Rather a complicated
way of just saying no funny fees IMO but I'm interested to see what they
come up with.
Robert
|
adding the fees 'back' to the base price is even worse I think. It will
mean that sellers who charge fees (have their base prices lower) will get even
higher in PG.
My idea would be to system-calculate all the fees into the prices, so PG will
show the 'final' prices, even if they are different from what seller
inputs in his store inventory.
PP fees - whatever sellers selects their PP fee - it gets added into the price.
You can have different % for different regions, it's not that hard to code
things like that.
Some sellers have BL fee - good, into the price it goes
Fees that are based on lot counts, lot sizes or whatever else.. they should not
exist at all.
For a change I would like to invite everyone to go to www.bricklink.com and read
what it says at the top.
BrickLink.com is a venue for individuals and businesses from all around the
world to buy and sell new, used and vintage LEGO® through fixed price services..
This is not a place to sell your packing supplies, your time or anything else
not LEGO related.
So in the scenario that I propose - say seller's base price for a part is
0.50 but he has 3% BL fee, 5% PP fee. That would show up as 0.54 in PG
|
I wish you all would understand the difference between the Price Guide, and items
for sale. It's quite confusing to us reading along wondering what the problem
is.
The Price Guide is a historical record of selling prices.
It covers a range of conditions and situation, and is a guide and nothing else.
Items For Sale is a list of, as the name says, items for sale. Anybody scrolling
through that list will realize the low-end items are worth less than the ones
of higher price.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | picabo | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 10:24 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rogue11 writes:
| | This is certainly true. But superlots can be excluded in searches, right?
How about doing the same with extra fees?
Sellers have to select if they charge extra fees (and how much) in the same way
as they select payment options, minimum buy etc in their store settings.
Then the search engine could use that info to exclude or include stores with
extra fees at the buyers discretion.
This would also make the extra fees easier to find in the store terms. Sometimes
one has to read through a lot of fine print to find whether or not there are
any.
Personally I don't mind the extra fees as much as long as they are clearly
listed. I have found many stores that still have lower prices even if they charge
$1 or so for packing material or so. I'm more irked by stores that use a
1 size fits all shipping option, for example shipping everything via priority.
I have recently bought the 4 different Fantasy Era Dragons from 4 different sellers.
3 shipped regular 1st class mail and 4th shipped it with priority in a box that
was way too large (maybe the only box he had) and the cost was more than 3 times
higher than with the other orders.
Sylvia
|
Hi Sylvia,
Not a bad idea. I charge a flat $1 on top of actual mailing costs.
Now, what about a seller who starts their mailing costs at $2.69. That's
also a fee, just not labeled as such.
Pam
| |
In Suggestions, kanownik writes:
| | There are other ways to "manipulate" the price guide to attract busniess.
Another tactic is to price certain parts super low but then they are attached
to a superlot.
This is a popular tactic with the CMF. A few stores have the Zombie from series
1 priced the lowest in the catalog but then you look at the super lot for the
whole set and the others are jacked up. This also occurs with some other parts
that are sub parts of another part. All and all it is just a way to pull in
customers.
This happens in B&M stores with all kinds of sales and other tactics.
Comparative shopping is an art and any guidelines and rules that are laid down
by Bricklink Limited will be manipulated somehow or another.
You will still have to fill carts and compare total costs when buying multiple
parts, etc
including asking sellers for a quote on shipping (unless they go automated shipping)
to be 100% sure
Thanks,
Ken
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | theboystoys | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 10:29 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rogue11 writes:
| | This is certainly true. But superlots can be excluded in searches, right?
How about doing the same with extra fees?
Sellers have to select if they charge extra fees (and how much) in the same way
as they select payment options, minimum buy etc in their store settings.
Then the search engine could use that info to exclude or include stores with
extra fees at the buyers discretion.
This would also make the extra fees easier to find in the store terms. Sometimes
one has to read through a lot of fine print to find whether or not there are
any.
Personally I don't mind the extra fees as much as long as they are clearly
listed. I have found many stores that still have lower prices even if they charge
$1 or so for packing material or so. I'm more irked by stores that use a
1 size fits all shipping option, for example shipping everything via priority.
I have recently bought the 4 different Fantasy Era Dragons from 4 different sellers.
3 shipped regular 1st class mail and 4th shipped it with priority in a box that
was way too large (maybe the only box he had) and the cost was more than 3 times
higher than with the other orders.
Sylvia
|
I don't mind fees either.....when the seller is honest about it. A seller
who charges actual shipping + $1.00 fee is fine. But a seller who has their shipping
charges start $2.00 over the actual cost then in bold font states "NO FEES" just
irritates me. They're not being honest with me and that's not a good
way to start a healthy transaction.
A possible BL solution may be to require any additional costs over actual shipping
costs to be listed on a separate "FEES" page in the stores. That way they don't
get buried in the terms.
"LOT LIMIT FEES" are just crazy to me. It you're well organized there's
no need for them. Yes a 79 lot 83 piece order is annoying to pick and takes longer,
but not every order can be simple.
Just my opinion,
Matt
My store I charge a dollar fee and it's the first thing listed on my T&C
page
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Made_In_Bricks | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 12:43 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, theboyslegos writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rogue11 writes:
| | This is certainly true. But superlots can be excluded in searches, right?
How about doing the same with extra fees?
Sellers have to select if they charge extra fees (and how much) in the same way
as they select payment options, minimum buy etc in their store settings.
Then the search engine could use that info to exclude or include stores with
extra fees at the buyers discretion.
This would also make the extra fees easier to find in the store terms. Sometimes
one has to read through a lot of fine print to find whether or not there are
any.
Personally I don't mind the extra fees as much as long as they are clearly
listed. I have found many stores that still have lower prices even if they charge
$1 or so for packing material or so. I'm more irked by stores that use a
1 size fits all shipping option, for example shipping everything via priority.
I have recently bought the 4 different Fantasy Era Dragons from 4 different sellers.
3 shipped regular 1st class mail and 4th shipped it with priority in a box that
was way too large (maybe the only box he had) and the cost was more than 3 times
higher than with the other orders.
Sylvia
|
I don't mind fees either.....when the seller is honest about it. A seller
who charges actual shipping + $1.00 fee is fine. But a seller who has their shipping
charges start $2.00 over the actual cost then in bold font states "NO FEES" just
irritates me. They're not being honest with me and that's not a good
way to start a healthy transaction.
A possible BL solution may be to require any additional costs over actual shipping
costs to be listed on a separate "FEES" page in the stores. That way they don't
get buried in the terms.
"LOT LIMIT FEES" are just crazy to me. It you're well organized there's
no need for them. Yes a 79 lot 83 piece order is annoying to pick and takes longer,
but not every order can be simple.
Just my opinion,
Matt
My store I charge a dollar fee and it's the first thing listed on my T&C
page
|
and what if that order is 79 lots with 83 total parts and the total cost is 83
cents and the store doesn't have a minimum buy?
I think lot limit in place of a low order fee is a better alternative
I don't have this, but I'm just where I would rather shop
So think about it,
instead of a store having a $5.00 minimum they have no minimum
but if you want 1 part for a dollar you are good to get just the one part.
However they could say purchases under 5 dollars and over 20 lots incur a $1.00
fee
I see this as completeley valid and reasonable.
If you are doing this for money you don't want the 79/83 purchase anyway,
you won't "lose" money unless you pay people to pack orders, but you will
lose your time which is money when running a store from your house.
People value their time differently and we all put that price in our stores.
Ken
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | theboystoys | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 13:31 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, kanownik writes:
| | In Suggestions, theboyslegos writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rogue11 writes:
| | This is certainly true. But superlots can be excluded in searches, right?
How about doing the same with extra fees?
Sellers have to select if they charge extra fees (and how much) in the same way
as they select payment options, minimum buy etc in their store settings.
Then the search engine could use that info to exclude or include stores with
extra fees at the buyers discretion.
This would also make the extra fees easier to find in the store terms. Sometimes
one has to read through a lot of fine print to find whether or not there are
any.
Personally I don't mind the extra fees as much as long as they are clearly
listed. I have found many stores that still have lower prices even if they charge
$1 or so for packing material or so. I'm more irked by stores that use a
1 size fits all shipping option, for example shipping everything via priority.
I have recently bought the 4 different Fantasy Era Dragons from 4 different sellers.
3 shipped regular 1st class mail and 4th shipped it with priority in a box that
was way too large (maybe the only box he had) and the cost was more than 3 times
higher than with the other orders.
Sylvia
|
I don't mind fees either.....when the seller is honest about it. A seller
who charges actual shipping + $1.00 fee is fine. But a seller who has their shipping
charges start $2.00 over the actual cost then in bold font states "NO FEES" just
irritates me. They're not being honest with me and that's not a good
way to start a healthy transaction.
A possible BL solution may be to require any additional costs over actual shipping
costs to be listed on a separate "FEES" page in the stores. That way they don't
get buried in the terms.
"LOT LIMIT FEES" are just crazy to me. It you're well organized there's
no need for them. Yes a 79 lot 83 piece order is annoying to pick and takes longer,
but not every order can be simple.
Just my opinion,
Matt
My store I charge a dollar fee and it's the first thing listed on my T&C
page
|
and what if that order is 79 lots with 83 total parts and the total cost is 83
cents and the store doesn't have a minimum buy?
I think lot limit in place of a low order fee is a better alternative
I don't have this, but I'm just where I would rather shop
So think about it,
instead of a store having a $5.00 minimum they have no minimum
but if you want 1 part for a dollar you are good to get just the one part.
However they could say purchases under 5 dollars and over 20 lots incur a $1.00
fee
I see this as completeley valid and reasonable.
If you are doing this for money you don't want the 79/83 purchase anyway,
you won't "lose" money unless you pay people to pack orders, but you will
lose your time which is money when running a store from your house.
People value their time differently and we all put that price in our stores.
Ken
|
I think the sellers should set their terms however they see fit. But fees of
any kind other than the actual shipping costs should be front and center for
everyone to see. I'm an informed buyer on everything, BL and anything else.
I read the terms every time. But many don't.
Typically I'd say too bad for the buyer, they should have read the terms.
But for new users, half of which think Bricklink is a website that sells lego
it's confusing. Many don't get the concept initially. Which means when
a seller tacks on fees the buyer was unaware of (again buyers fault), it reflects
poorly on the rest of us.
I get the 79/83 orders about 10% of the time. But I also get orders for the $15.00
minifig that takes me 2 minutes to have packed and ready to go. It tends to balance
out for me.
Matt
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| | | | | Author: | junkpile | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 10:47 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| I agree with beginning of this post....but maybe just like we can see the sellers
minimum purchase amount, it would also be nice to see a BL sellers Handling Fees
cost as well.
As a long time buyer here that would be a time saving update.
Actually it's probably not possible but having a search engine that could
find the stores with the most items from my want list would be of an even bigger
time saver.
|
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| | | | | Author: | BricksTH4 | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 12:32 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
My fees are simple.
25p-35p packaging (Depends on order size)
25p if order is under 1 GBP in value.
Example (My Store), Someone orders 100 2780 technic pins. It costs 90p for those
pins.
Parts: 0.90 GBP
Shipping: 0.90 GBP
Packaging: 0.25 GBP
Handling Fee: 0.25 GBP
TOTAL : 2.30GBP
Example 2 (Another Store) Same 100 2780 technic pins (Store minimum not reached)
Parts: 1.32 GBP
Shipping: 0.90 GBP
Packaging: 0.30 GBP
Handling Fee: 0 GBP
TOTAL: 2.52 GBP
This is proof of where built in fees aren't always the best.
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| | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 12:47 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Templehill4 writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
My fees are simple.
25p-35p packaging (Depends on order size)
25p if order is under 1 GBP in value.
Example (My Store), Someone orders 100 2780 technic pins. It costs 90p for those
pins.
Parts: 0.90 GBP
Shipping: 0.90 GBP
Packaging: 0.25 GBP
Handling Fee: 0.25 GBP
TOTAL : 2.30GBP
Example 2 (Another Store) Same 100 2780 technic pins (Store minimum not reached)
Parts: 1.32 GBP
Shipping: 0.90 GBP
Packaging: 0.30 GBP
Handling Fee: 0 GBP
TOTAL: 2.52 GBP
This is proof of where built in fees aren't always the best.
|
If you'd read all responses to this post then you'd understand that the
small handling or packaging fees on small orders is not the main focus here..
the issue arises when sellers are charging extra-high fees on orders of any size.
How would you like a combined fee of 20% on top of your 200 GBP order?
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | goshe7 | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 12:54 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | | In Suggestions, enig writes:
|
| | | | | | In Suggestions, enig writes:
|
|
|
| | | | | | Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
|
|
If you'd read all responses to this post then you'd understand that the
small handling or packaging fees on small orders is not the main focus here..
the issue arises when sellers are charging extra-high fees on orders of any size.
How would you like a combined fee of 20% on top of your 200 GBP order?
|
Practice what you preach.
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| | | | | Author: | goshe7 | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 12:52 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | | In Suggestions, enig writes:
|
| | Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
|
That is all you needed to say. Here are all the facts (not opinions) I know
on this topic.
1. I shop from the Wanted List (By Shop) option most of the time.
2. I am one buyer of many on BrickLink and I cannot speak for how representative
my actions are of the majority.
3. I choose the shops I buy from based on a number of factors. So I would not
say that using the Wanted List (By Shop) option is how I choose the shops to
buy from. Rather, it is the first filter I may apply.
3. There is an automated program for cost optimization (Price Guide cost) for
fulfilling wanted lists from multiple stores. Check out brickset forum for that
info.
It doesn't address the ability of anyone to give answers, but might I suggest
you refine your question. I don't really understand what you are asking
as Price Guide and Wanted List are two separate functions on the site.
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| | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 13:11 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, goshe7 writes:
| | | | In Suggestions, enig writes:
|
| | Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
|
That is all you needed to say.
|
Agreed... I tend to forget (or rather ignore) that most people need short sentences
(which do not leave any room for interpretation) in order to keep a focused discussion
going. I fail once I try to include extra info to my sentences, which (in my
head) would enable to cut corners and reach the end of the discussion much faster.
There is an extremely limited number of people that I have met in my life with
whom I can talk that way
in most of the cases it ends up working in an opposite way, like it did here.
Thank you for reminding that to me.
| | Here are all the facts (not opinions) I know
on this topic.
1. I shop from the Wanted List (By Shop) option most of the time.
2. I am one buyer of many on BrickLink and I cannot speak for how representative
my actions are of the majority.
3. I choose the shops I buy from based on a number of factors. So I would not
say that using the Wanted List (By Shop) option is how I choose the shops to
buy from. Rather, it is the first filter I may apply.
3. There is an automated program for cost optimization (Price Guide cost) for
fulfilling wanted lists from multiple stores. Check out brickset forum for that
info.
It doesn't address the ability of anyone to give answers, but might I suggest
you refine your question. I don't really understand what you are asking
as Price Guide and Wanted List are two separate functions on the site.
|
They are closely related..
Thank you for your time to respond but it seems that this topic is dying off
and I will write a personal suggestion to the Admin instead.
Lukas
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| | | | | Author: | eileenkeeney | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 13:30 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
I agree,
Any fee that is based on a percentage of purchase, should be included in the
price of the item.
But fees based on a per purchase (not correlated with item price) may actually
be serving to keep cost lower for the buyer who is placing orders for large qty
lots, and paying with methods that are less expensive for the seller?
There are fees that correlate with real costs, that can not be translated into
the price of individual items.
Removing such fees actually pushes item prices up, as the seller now has to price
such that even the minimum order does not result in a loss for the seller.
There is a reason why the Amazon model works well for buying a single item, but
not nearly as well for buying multiple items that could have all been obtained
from a single other seller.
I am not sure there is a "fair" way to do things.
However, having the price guide indicate fees (as it does min purchase), would
be of value.
Basically any fee that is allowed, would be something that is placed in a form
(ending up in a specific field in the data base), and then shown in the price
guide.
Doing away with fees that are not specifically defined as allowed, and not easily
viewed in the same way on every seller's page, would be a good idea.
Doing away with fees completely, I am not so sure.
Where the fee can be instead translated to a reduction in price each, when buying
larger quantities, that strategy should instead be used.
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| | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 13:48 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, eileenkeeney writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
I agree,
Any fee that is based on a percentage of purchase, should be included in the
price of the item.
But fees based on a per purchase (not correlated with item price) may actually
be serving to keep cost lower for the buyer who is placing orders for large qty
lots, and paying with methods that are less expensive for the seller?
|
That's exactly what tiered pricing is for. Set the price of the piece which
is acceptable for you as a seller in case buyer wants just a few parts. Use tiered
pricing to reward the high-volume customers.
As for payment methods - tricky.. most are % based so can be worked into the
prices (buyer sets his preferred method and price guide outputs the prices with
fees included).
| |
There are fees that correlate with real costs, that can not be translated into
the price of individual items.
Removing such fees actually pushes item prices up, as the seller now has to price
such that even the minimum order does not result in a loss for the seller.
|
Reasonable handling fees for small orders is OK, the way I see it.
| | There is a reason why the Amazon model works well for buying a single item, but
not nearly as well for buying multiple items that could have all been obtained
from a single other seller.
I am not sure there is a "fair" way to do things.
However, having the price guide indicate fees (as it does min purchase), would
be of value.
Basically any fee that is allowed, would be something that is placed in a form
(ending up in a specific field in the data base), and then shown in the price
guide.
Doing away with fees that are not specifically defined as allowed, and not easily
viewed in the same way on every seller's page, would be a good idea.
Doing away with fees completely, I am not so sure.
Where the fee can be instead translated to a reduction in price each, when buying
larger quantities, that strategy should instead be used.
|
Great post!
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| | | | | Author: | BLUSER_8789 | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 15:46 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
It's all about SMART SHOPPING. An intelligent customer would compare things
like shipping, handling, and other charges between stores.
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| | | | | Author: | DDSEnt | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 16:43 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 47 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| I am with you 100%
It is my personal opinion that ALL fees should be against BrickLinks Terms. All
business expenses should be built into the price of goods and a flat rate for
postage (International would be tricky) as with almost any other business. Like
you have stated it makes for a more level playing field for stores like mine
that have to add to the price of their product to cover their business expenses.
What a concept!
I find it almost vulgar for a customer to be figuratively slapped in the face
with a business's expenses. The customer does not need to hear this nor do
they usually care. Business 101 ... If the profit from the product you are selling
does not cover your expenses then you need to find something else to sell or
raise your prices.
I have higher expense's then most sellers on BrickLink due to..
1. 36 Mile Round Trip to Post Office (mandatory trip for International)
2. 99.9% of my parts orders ship in a new U-Line box that cost me $.46 - $.62.
If the order is above the first class limit then most but not all of the time
I will use the free USPS box.
3. I use NEW bubble wrap or NEW brown craft paper for packing
4. I only excessively use NEW poly-bags
5. I put most all printed parts, windscreens, and parts with large surface areas
in their own poly-bag when parted.
6. Kits are only shipped in NEW U-Line Corrugated boxes which aren't cheap
but they are strong. Well worth it to prevent damaged kits.
Against my own beliefs early on I have tried Minimum Orders or a $1.00 fee on
all orders under $20.00 to cover these costs. I now have NO Fees or Minimum,
but instead I have a Flat 1st Class postage rate of $3.00 (have thought about
raising it to $3.25 due to the recent postal increase). I keep exact accounting
on my expense/profit and I may loose a few pennies on some orders close to 13
ounces mark, but I have always made enough money with my 1st class postage at
the end of the month to cover my $.30 PayPal fee and packing materials.
Just my 3 Cents
Steve
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| | | | | Author: | Nikilyn | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 17:10 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 49 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
|
Right here is where I knew I would not like your post. Then further down on your
post you start talking about what can and can not be discussed in this thread.
Fair competition does not exist. It never will. Let's all have stores the
same. Wait don't forget to price all your stuff the same. Oops, your shipping
is 1 penny higher then mine that's not fair. Everyone have the same shipping.
Fees, no fees please. oh wait, some fees are ok, like I see YOU have a packagaing
fee? What's that? Is that a fee? Oh wait no that's not a fee, I am talking
about other fees. Shipping over actual cost in store terms, well that is a fee,
no it's just stating your shipping for each store. Our handling fee is generally
considered acceptable, you must be talking about other fees.....etc and it goes
on and on.
Fees, pricing, shipping, overall speed, this is how we stay competive and different
from eachother. Bricklink is run off of fixed prices, yes we do not have auction
service here anymore. It is still up to each store to sell how they want though.
We are independent and bricklink hosts our stores taking a fee to do so. It is
up to buyers to CHOOSE where they want to shop, just like in the real world.
I don't understand why we still have to have arguments and back and forths
on this same issue. IF you see a fee on a store terms page, then DO NOT shop
there if you are so against it. My guess is the people that keep posting these
arguments want to purchase form these stores, but dont' want to pay the fees.
Then don't. You either want the item enough to pay the fees or you don't.
The store is not obligated to sell to you or try and get your business. Are they
losing sales, yes, probably, but that must be ok for them otherwise they would
just remove their fees. I do not see how this relates to the price guide or
any other issues of unfair/fair competition. If a piece sold for .10 then it
sold for .10 regardless of whether there was any fees involved.
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| | | | | | | Author: | randyf | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 22:02 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 55 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Nikilyn writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
|
Right here is where I knew I would not like your post. Then further down on your
post you start talking about what can and can not be discussed in this thread.
Fair competition does not exist. It never will. Let's all have stores the
same. Wait don't forget to price all your stuff the same. Oops, your shipping
is 1 penny higher then mine that's not fair. Everyone have the same shipping.
Fees, no fees please. oh wait, some fees are ok, like I see YOU have a packagaing
fee? What's that? Is that a fee? Oh wait no that's not a fee, I am talking
about other fees. Shipping over actual cost in store terms, well that is a fee,
no it's just stating your shipping for each store. Our handling fee is generally
considered acceptable, you must be talking about other fees.....etc and it goes
on and on.
Fees, pricing, shipping, overall speed, this is how we stay competive and different
from eachother. Bricklink is run off of fixed prices, yes we do not have auction
service here anymore. It is still up to each store to sell how they want though.
We are independent and bricklink hosts our stores taking a fee to do so. It is
up to buyers to CHOOSE where they want to shop, just like in the real world.
I don't understand why we still have to have arguments and back and forths
on this same issue. IF you see a fee on a store terms page, then DO NOT shop
there if you are so against it. My guess is the people that keep posting these
arguments want to purchase form these stores, but dont' want to pay the fees.
Then don't. You either want the item enough to pay the fees or you don't.
The store is not obligated to sell to you or try and get your business. Are they
losing sales, yes, probably, but that must be ok for them otherwise they would
just remove their fees. I do not see how this relates to the price guide or
any other issues of unfair/fair competition. If a piece sold for .10 then it
sold for .10 regardless of whether there was any fees involved.
|
+1
My thoughts exactly, and I am just a buyer. Caveat emptor.
Randy
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| | | | | Author: | QCBricks | | Posted: | Jul 18, 2013 20:13 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 68 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
Simple...let buyers and sellers decide rather than appointing someone at Bricklink
to be in charge of the "fee police". As much as I hate some of the out of control
$10 "paperwork" fees and such, Bricklink needs to be focusing on improving the
site and bringing more buyers to the site.
To state that "buyers" simply want the lowest price is a gross underestimation
of what many buyers actually want. While price is paramount to some, it might
not even be in the top 5 for others. Rather than trying to impose some sort
of regulation...let them decide for themselves.
Scott
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| | | | | Author: | legoman442 | | Posted: | Jul 19, 2013 00:13 | | Subject: | Re: Fair competition pt1 | | Viewed: | 68 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| I´m agree recently placed an order for a relatively good Price set but ended
up with a fee of 0.35 euros plus 6.5% of total order..
In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | I would like to have certain... issues addressed or at least brought to attention
for the dev team working on BL 2.0
What I want to tackle is very broad and quite complex subject, so will try to
do it in parts. Would like to ask everyone for cooperation and keep it as close
to the subject as possible.
Part one - Fair Competition
Do you agree that majority of the buyers are using price-guide / wanted list
to choose the shops to buy from?
example
shop #1 has lower item price, but charges fees that significantly effect the
end-price (which comes with an invoice)
shop #2 has higher price, but does not charge a fee of any kind at all besides
shipping
everyone naturally wants to get the best bang for their buck, so large part
of buyers buy from shop #1, where often they actually end up paying more than
they would have paid in shop #2
results
1) buyers end up spending more than they thought they will
2) shop #1 has an unfair competitive advantage
PLEASE - just need focused opinions, so we can be done with it and not get back
to the same discussion further down the road, or keep this discussion contained
in this topic.
Do not discuss the necessity or fairness of some fees in 'this' topic.
I plan to host a new topic for EVERY single fee sellers are coming up with, so
we can have focused discussions and avoid talking about 1001 thing at the same
time (and achieving nothing).
|
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