Discussion Forum: Thread 309333

 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 10:26
 Subject: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 201 times
 Topic: Suggestions
 Status:Open
 Vote:[Yes|No]
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
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Store: Cosmic Toys
Backstory: Instant Checkout (IC) has been a boon for BL, for sellers, and for
buyers. Prior to IC, buyers could request, and sellers could respond to quote
requests (QR). IC and QR are mutually exclusive, You can have one or the other,
but not both.

One of the things that QR permits (although obliquely) is the ability to tacitly
decline an order. That happens when a seller fails to respond to the QR within
three days. Buyers can also decline a completed QR, by not paying for three days.
If either party fails to perform within their three day window, the QR fails,
is terminated, and there is no residual baggage (in either direction). It is
a potential-order, which never happened.

That last bit was lost with Instant Checkout. Buyers have the full opportunity
to review seller's terms, and to see the automated shipping costs. That should
be sufficient for the buyer to complete all due diligence. Unfortunately not
all buyers pay attention to seller's terms, and/or try to place special terms
upon the order (via the comments field). They do not give the seller the opportunity
to decline the order (for whatever reason), and the ability to leave feedback
(i.e. residual baggage) is automatically created, even if the seller OCRs the
order and refunds the payment.

Suggestion: Give the seller the optional capability to review all incoming IC-based
orders, and either accept or decline the order. Declining the order would have
the same effect as not responding to a QR, plus it will generate an automatic
refund. Not selecting one or the other for three days, would have the same effect
as declining it. Accepting an order, would be invisible to the buyer, and the
seller would proceed exactly as they do today. The difference in this, is that
a declined order would not leave either party with the ability to drop feedback
(which is where many problems have happened as of late). It would restore the
seller's ability to control order flow.

Thank You

Nita Rae
 Author: peregrinator View Messages Posted By peregrinator
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 10:40
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 44 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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peregrinator (330)

Location:  USA, New Jersey
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 21, 2003 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Faber Family Bricks
I think a buyer who wants that degree of control over orders would probably be
best served by turning off IC.

In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 11:06
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 43 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, peregrinator writes:
  I think a buyer who wants that degree of control over orders would probably be
best served by turning off IC.


But a seller (not a buyer) really cannot turn off IC, not in the year 2021 and
with BL giving buyers the ability to filter only stores that accept IC. Buyers
want a one-stop shop, they do not (for the most part) want a multi-step QR experience.
The only reason I can fathom a buyer wanting QR (over IC) is if they want to
keep an order open for additions. That paradigm is also mutually exclusive with
IC. You cannot do both.

Nita Rae
 Author: peregrinator View Messages Posted By peregrinator
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 12:15
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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peregrinator (330)

Location:  USA, New Jersey
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 21, 2003 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Faber Family Bricks
I'll grant that buyers want IC - but what they definitely do not want is
for orders for which they have paid to be cancelled, even if they are ultimately
refunded.
 Author: firestar246 View Messages Posted By firestar246
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 12:35
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 27 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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firestar246 (7922)

Location:  USA, Missouri
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Jan 12, 2016 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Tons of Bricks (GDM)
In Suggestions, peregrinator writes:
  I'll grant that buyers want IC - but what they definitely do not want is
for orders for which they have paid to be cancelled, even if they are ultimately
refunded.

+1

While your idea, cosmicray, sounds good on paper, there are several issues as
others have already stated.

No matter what we do, we can never fully protect ourselves from fake orders,
scammers, unread terms, and unjustified feedback; whatever restraints we put
up to protect us from those will also make the genuine buyers have more restraints.
The best we can do is just swallow the few bad experiences and move on. They
may make us upset, they may make us lose a little money, but they aren't
going to kill us or make us go bankrupt.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 12:39
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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SylvainLS (37)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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In Suggestions, peregrinator writes:
  I'll grant that buyers want IC - but what they definitely do not want is
for orders for which they have paid to be cancelled, even if they are ultimately
refunded.

Well, sellers can already cancel whenever they want.  The only thing that’s left
against “serial cancellers” is the possibility to leave feedback… and that suggestion
would remove it.
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 13:41
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
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Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
  In Suggestions, peregrinator writes:
  I'll grant that buyers want IC - but what they definitely do not want is
for orders for which they have paid to be cancelled, even if they are ultimately
refunded.

Well, sellers can already cancel whenever they want.  The only thing that’s left
against “serial cancellers” is the possibility to leave feedback… and that suggestion
would remove it.

When a QR expires after three days, you never know if it expired because the
seller didn't want to touch it, the seller didn't notice it, or the seller
was seriously ill. All you know is that the QR failed. IIRC, QR does not take
items out of inventory. IC does take them out of inventory. If a seller, who
uses QR, lists something highly desirable or valuable, it is entirely possible
they will get multiple QR for the same item. First QR they respond to will cancel
all the others. So QR has it's problems as well, not to mention NPB (which
would be really annoying if the first, of several QR, ended up going NPB).

Nita Rae
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 14:05
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 25 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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SylvainLS (37)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: BuyerOnly
BrickLink Discussions Moderator (?)
In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
  In Suggestions, peregrinator writes:
  I'll grant that buyers want IC - but what they definitely do not want is
for orders for which they have paid to be cancelled, even if they are ultimately
refunded.

Well, sellers can already cancel whenever they want.  The only thing that’s left
against “serial cancellers” is the possibility to leave feedback… and that suggestion
would remove it.

When a QR expires after three days, you never know if it expired because the
seller didn't want to touch it, the seller didn't notice it, or the seller
was seriously ill. All you know is that the QR failed. IIRC, QR does not take
items out of inventory. IC does take them out of inventory. If a seller, who
uses QR, lists something highly desirable or valuable, it is entirely possible
they will get multiple QR for the same item. First QR they respond to will cancel
all the others. So QR has it's problems as well, not to mention NPB (which
would be really annoying if the first, of several QR, ended up going NPB).

Nita Rae

By “serial cancellers,” I was talking about sellers who cancel willy-nilly the
so-called “binding contracts.”
The only changes your suggestion would bring is:
1. more buyers would know the balance was never on their side,
2. shift the balance even more towards sellers who can cancel without fear of
feedback.

And I would also note that that fear of feedback is not very high to begin with
because of the buyers’ fear of retaliation feedback.


Also, before the QR goes NPB, seller AND buyer need to accept it.
There’s also lots of reasons for IC to fail (disputes, chargeback…).
In the end, there’s no “zero risks” transactions.
 Author: manganschlamm View Messages Posted By manganschlamm
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 15:00
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 36 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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manganschlamm (1654)

Location:  Germany, Nordrhein-Westfalen
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In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
  In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
  In Suggestions, peregrinator writes:
  I'll grant that buyers want IC - but what they definitely do not want is
for orders for which they have paid to be cancelled, even if they are ultimately
refunded.

Well, sellers can already cancel whenever they want.  The only thing that’s left
against “serial cancellers” is the possibility to leave feedback… and that suggestion
would remove it.

When a QR expires after three days, you never know if it expired because the
seller didn't want to touch it, the seller didn't notice it, or the seller
was seriously ill. All you know is that the QR failed. IIRC, QR does not take
items out of inventory. IC does take them out of inventory. If a seller, who
uses QR, lists something highly desirable or valuable, it is entirely possible
they will get multiple QR for the same item. First QR they respond to will cancel
all the others. So QR has it's problems as well, not to mention NPB (which
would be really annoying if the first, of several QR, ended up going NPB).

Nita Rae

By “serial cancellers,” I was talking about sellers who cancel willy-nilly the
so-called “binding contracts.”
The only changes your suggestion would bring is:
1. more buyers would know the balance was never on their side,
2. shift the balance even more towards sellers who can cancel without fear of
feedback.

And I would also note that that fear of feedback is not very high to begin with
because of the buyers’ fear of retaliation feedback.


Also, before the QR goes NPB, seller AND buyer need to accept it.
There’s also lots of reasons for IC to fail (disputes, chargeback…).
In the end, there’s no “zero risks” transactions.

And it would open the door to this kind of behavior that good buddies get desirable
parts and some unknown buyers are turned down. This can be done on flea marked
or garage sales, but not on a professional e-commerce site that is owned by TLG.
 Author: manganschlamm View Messages Posted By manganschlamm
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 14:55
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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manganschlamm (1654)

Location:  Germany, Nordrhein-Westfalen
Member Since Contact Type Status
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In Suggestions, peregrinator writes:
  I'll grant that buyers want IC - but what they definitely do not want is
for orders for which they have paid to be cancelled, even if they are ultimately
refunded.

And they do not want orders to be cancelled for arbitrary reasons. Because for
example the seller does not like the name of the buyer or disapproves of forum
posts and things like this. Face it, this is now a professional e-commerce site,
not a hobbyist environment.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 14:59
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 26 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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yorbrick (907)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
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Store Closed Store: Yorbricks
In Suggestions, peregrinator writes:
  I'll grant that buyers want IC - but what they definitely do not want is
for orders for which they have paid to be cancelled, even if they are ultimately
refunded.

Definitely. Especially if there were parts in a paid order that they could have
added to another order placed at the same time.
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 20:06
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
  In Suggestions, peregrinator writes:
  I'll grant that buyers want IC - but what they definitely do not want is
for orders for which they have paid to be cancelled, even if they are ultimately
refunded.

Definitely. Especially if there were parts in a paid order that they could have
added to another order placed at the same time.

How does that relate to the suggestion I just made ?

Your inference is that the seller is stuck with the order, because IC. Or am
I missing something that is implied, but not stated ?

Nita Rae
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 03:00
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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yorbrick (907)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
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Store Closed Store: Yorbricks
In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
  In Suggestions, peregrinator writes:
  I'll grant that buyers want IC - but what they definitely do not want is
for orders for which they have paid to be cancelled, even if they are ultimately
refunded.

Definitely. Especially if there were parts in a paid order that they could have
added to another order placed at the same time.

How does that relate to the suggestion I just made ?


Because you made a suggestion that a seller should be allowed to cancel any paid
instant checkout orders and not have to worry about feedback. That may be a way
to solve one specific problem but opens up many more. Sellers would abuse this.
They could use it for market research, testing out what pricing they can get
away with or even which sets to buy. They could list more rare parts than they
have, and only accept orders with them where the order has high value cancelling
all others with no comeback.

The other problem is that if a buyer places an order and pays for it, then it
is reasonable to believe a seller will send it and that the buyer need not wait
to see if it will be accepted before placing orders in other stores. Those stores
might have parts in the first order that they could have ordered if they had
known the seller was going to cancel their order.

Fraud orders are a rare but obviously annoying problem. Giving loads of power
to sellers to cancel any order without any buyer's right to complain may
solve it but also creates more problems elsewhere. Better to solve it another
way, such as being able to flag suspected fraudulent orders that admins can cancel
as appropriate.
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 06:14
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
  In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
  In Suggestions, peregrinator writes:
  I'll grant that buyers want IC - but what they definitely do not want is
for orders for which they have paid to be cancelled, even if they are ultimately
refunded.

Definitely. Especially if there were parts in a paid order that they could have
added to another order placed at the same time.

How does that relate to the suggestion I just made ?


Because you made a suggestion that a seller should be allowed to cancel any paid
instant checkout orders and not have to worry about feedback. That may be a way
to solve one specific problem but opens up many more. Sellers would abuse this.
They could use it for market research, testing out what pricing they can get
away with or even which sets to buy.

You are suggesting a potential problem that does currently exist with QR. Why
don't you craft a similar suggestion to eliminate it from QR ? I am trying
to get parity with QR on the subject of FB.

  The other problem is that if a buyer places an order and pays for it, then it
is reasonable to believe a seller will send it and that the buyer need not wait
to see if it will be accepted before placing orders in other stores.

By that theory of thought, the seller should reasonably believe the buyers will
read the seller's Terms and adhere to them. But they don't. Hence my
suggestion.

  
Fraud orders are a rare but obviously annoying problem. Giving loads of power
to sellers to cancel any order without any buyer's right to complain may
solve it but also creates more problems elsewhere.

Seller's can decline QR right now, with now retribution, nor reporting. They
can merely ignore it. I'm trying to obtain parity with QR.

Nita Rae
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 06:36
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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yorbrick (907)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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Seller's can decline QR right now, with now retribution, nor reporting. They
can merely ignore it. I'm trying to obtain parity with QR.


A quote request is not a "binding order" though. It is a request for more information.
They are completely different things.

Both a seller and buyer can choose to stop a quote request at any time. And no
feedback is left.

To give parity between QR and orders, then not only would a seller be able to
stop an order at any time for any reason they choose with no feedback from the
buyer, a buyer should also be able to cancel an order if they want to (whether
paid or not), with no come back from the seller. Parity would lead to a mess.
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 07:15
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
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Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
  
  
Seller's can decline QR right now, with now retribution, nor reporting. They
can merely ignore it. I'm trying to obtain parity with QR.


A quote request is not a "binding order" though. It is a request for more information.
They are completely different things.

They are different also in that a seller can add to their stop list before the
order is created. With IC, that isn't possible.

IC places an undue burden on the seller, in that the buyer has no legal requirement
to follow seller's posted Terms. The seller should have a no repercussions
method of enforcing their terms.

If that method consists of a valid reason for feedback removal (order declined),
I might accept that. Right now the situation is that any buyer that finds a way
to jam an order thru expects to have that order honored, or they can leave negative
FB. That is wrong. A seller has to have some way of (respectfully) dealing with
that.

Nita Rae
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 07:31
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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yorbrick (907)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
  
  
Seller's can decline QR right now, with now retribution, nor reporting. They
can merely ignore it. I'm trying to obtain parity with QR.


A quote request is not a "binding order" though. It is a request for more information.
They are completely different things.

They are different also in that a seller can add to their stop list before the
order is created. With IC, that isn't possible.

IC places an undue burden on the seller, in that the buyer has no legal requirement
to follow seller's posted Terms. The seller should have a no repercussions
method of enforcing their terms.

If that method consists of a valid reason for feedback removal (order declined),
I might accept that. Right now the situation is that any buyer that finds a way
to jam an order thru expects to have that order honored, or they can leave negative
FB. That is wrong. A seller has to have some way of (respectfully) dealing with
that.


But is giving a seller the right to cancel any order just because they want to,
with no right of reply for the buyer, the best way to do it? There has to be
a better way as it would be abused.
 Author: peregrinator View Messages Posted By peregrinator
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 07:38
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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peregrinator (330)

Location:  USA, New Jersey
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 21, 2003 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Faber Family Bricks
In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  IC places an undue burden on the seller, in that the buyer has no legal requirement
to follow seller's posted Terms. The seller should have a no repercussions
method of enforcing their terms.

It would be an undue burden if sellers were required to accept IC. Since they're
not, it's not an undue burden, just another case of sellers determining whether
the risk is an acceptable one.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 11:40
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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Teup (5107)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
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In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  Backstory: Instant Checkout (IC) has been a boon for BL, for sellers, and for
buyers. Prior to IC, buyers could request, and sellers could respond to quote
requests (QR). IC and QR are mutually exclusive, You can have one or the other,
but not both.

One of the things that QR permits (although obliquely) is the ability to tacitly
decline an order. That happens when a seller fails to respond to the QR within
three days. Buyers can also decline a completed QR, by not paying for three days.
If either party fails to perform within their three day window, the QR fails,
is terminated, and there is no residual baggage (in either direction). It is
a potential-order, which never happened.

That last bit was lost with Instant Checkout. Buyers have the full opportunity
to review seller's terms, and to see the automated shipping costs. That should
be sufficient for the buyer to complete all due diligence. Unfortunately not
all buyers pay attention to seller's terms, and/or try to place special terms
upon the order (via the comments field). They do not give the seller the opportunity
to decline the order (for whatever reason), and the ability to leave feedback
(i.e. residual baggage) is automatically created, even if the seller OCRs the
order and refunds the payment.

Suggestion: Give the seller the optional capability to review all incoming IC-based
orders, and either accept or decline the order. Declining the order would have
the same effect as not responding to a QR, plus it will generate an automatic
refund. Not selecting one or the other for three days, would have the same effect
as declining it. Accepting an order, would be invisible to the buyer, and the
seller would proceed exactly as they do today. The difference in this, is that
a declined order would not leave either party with the ability to drop feedback
(which is where many problems have happened as of late). It would restore the
seller's ability to control order flow.

Thank You

Nita Rae

Sounds a bit double to me; With IC, the seller already specified what orders
they accept and which they don't accept. If there still is an order that
could be placed but the seller didn't want it, it can be because:

- They made a mistake in their IC setup (their fault)
- The seller doesn't have time (also their fault, shop should be closed then)
- The seller has specified conditions in their terms that IC does not automate
(yet). For example, a maximum quantity of something per order.

That last point is a tricky one. I think Bricklink should implement any condition
that we consider useful, and just ditch the rest - disallow sellers to specify
such things manually in their terms. E.g. maximum quantity per order can be useful,
but some sellers invent very creative mathematical and pretty pointless conditions
that are pretty hard to comprehend when you just wanna do some online shopping.

Buyers just don't really read terms, and that's a fact of life. That's
just how e-commerce works. IMO, they should be simple, and anything that does
not fit in IC, should not be allowed. Just like at BrickOwl. Then we have a system
that is clear to the buyer, and only lets through orders that the seller specified
as desired.
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 12:01
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
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Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  - The seller has specified conditions in their terms that IC does not automate
(yet). For example, a maximum quantity of something per order.

That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Another reason, although not specifically one I am dealing with, is the spat
of Stripe chargebacks that sellers in the EU have been dealing with. With the
ability decline such orders, they would save themselves the chargeback fee, along
with the feedback exposure.

Nita Rae
 Author: Hypertrophy View Messages Posted By Hypertrophy
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 12:29
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 34 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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Hypertrophy (7925)

Location:  USA, Georgia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 23, 2012 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Robb the Builder
In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  - The seller has specified conditions in their terms that IC does not automate
(yet). For example, a maximum quantity of something per order.

That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Another reason, although not specifically one I am dealing with, is the spat
of Stripe chargebacks that sellers in the EU have been dealing with. With the
ability decline such orders, they would save themselves the chargeback fee, along
with the feedback exposure.

Nita Rae


I don't think what you're proposing is very friendly for buyers. If I
was new and ordering something and then a couple days later the order was declined
and refunded I'd probably never buy here again. People don't want to
pay and still wonder if their order will be accepted. That would be a nightmare
for completing projects. Can you imaging if you were the first store where they
bought 75% of their Lego then they filled the remaining items from other stores?
Now you cancel and they weren't able to get those pieces (any or all)
through the secondary stores. It's true that terms aren't fully read
but I think the issues are so few and far between it's not that consequential
and requiring a change like you're proposing. Work flow is so much better
now with Instant Checkout IMO. 95% of orders are instantly paid and you just
have to pack them...very little waiting on an invoice being paid and wondering
if it will be.

I've read your other posts regarding freight forwarders and respect that
you don't want to do that. I will say that I've shipped that way at least
500-600 times without ever having an issue. To me it's just a fact of e-commerce
at this point. I would say to insure anything high value if you're uncomfortable.
Eating the cost of a small order because it was lost or scammed is just a cost
of doing business. I'm at 2 out of 11,000 and neither was a freight forwarder.


-Robb
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 13:32
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, Hypertrophy writes:
  In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  - The seller has specified conditions in their terms that IC does not automate
(yet). For example, a maximum quantity of something per order.

That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Another reason, although not specifically one I am dealing with, is the spat
of Stripe chargebacks that sellers in the EU have been dealing with. With the
ability decline such orders, they would save themselves the chargeback fee, along
with the feedback exposure.

Nita Rae


I don't think what you're proposing is very friendly for buyers. If I
was new and ordering something and then a couple days later the order was declined
and refunded I'd probably never buy here again.

There is nothing that prevents this now, other than the fear of feedback reprisal.
A seller can actively refuse any IC order, so long as they do a full refund.
The feedback is the penalty for doing that, even if the buyer violated the seller's
terms.

There is also nothing that prevents a buyer from trying to insert new terms into
the order, terms the seller may find unacceptable other than the fear of feedback
reprisal.

QR eliminates the feedback situation, because the seller can ignore the QR for
three days, and it goes poof, without any collateral damage on either party.
QR however, introduces the possibility of NPB, which does not exist with IC.
IC and QR each have their advantages and disadvantages. That what this is about,
trying to get IC on par with QR.

Nita Rae
 Author: manganschlamm View Messages Posted By manganschlamm
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 15:06
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 48 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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manganschlamm (1654)

Location:  Germany, Nordrhein-Westfalen
Member Since Contact Type Status
Mar 8, 2016 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Hypertrophy writes:
  In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  - The seller has specified conditions in their terms that IC does not automate
(yet). For example, a maximum quantity of something per order.

That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Another reason, although not specifically one I am dealing with, is the spat
of Stripe chargebacks that sellers in the EU have been dealing with. With the
ability decline such orders, they would save themselves the chargeback fee, along
with the feedback exposure.

Nita Rae


I don't think what you're proposing is very friendly for buyers. If I
was new and ordering something and then a couple days later the order was declined
and refunded I'd probably never buy here again.

There is nothing that prevents this now, other than the fear of feedback reprisal.
A seller can actively refuse any IC order, so long as they do a full refund.
The feedback is the penalty for doing that, even if the buyer violated the seller's
terms.

There is also nothing that prevents a buyer from trying to insert new terms into
the order, terms the seller may find unacceptable other than the fear of feedback
reprisal.

QR eliminates the feedback situation, because the seller can ignore the QR for
three days, and it goes poof, without any collateral damage on either party.
QR however, introduces the possibility of NPB, which does not exist with IC.
IC and QR each have their advantages and disadvantages. That what this is about,
trying to get IC on par with QR.

Nita Rae


Sorry, but if an order is placed with IC and onsite payment, the buyer can put
into the comment field whatever he/she wants, it is not relevant. Payment is
immediately processes and the order goes forward.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 14:12
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 37 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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Teup (5107)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: BLOKJESKONING
In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  - The seller has specified conditions in their terms that IC does not automate
(yet). For example, a maximum quantity of something per order.

That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Another reason, although not specifically one I am dealing with, is the spat
of Stripe chargebacks that sellers in the EU have been dealing with. With the
ability decline such orders, they would save themselves the chargeback fee, along
with the feedback exposure.

Nita Rae

Well, I guess what I was trying to say is, some of those criteria can be featured
within IC, without having to "manually patch" IC after the order is placed. For
example, if freight forwarder problems is a relevant thing, the system should/could
detect them based on the address settings and bar such customers from checking
out in some stores (with a warning in advance when visiting the store). As for
the Stripe situation, IC could have a feature where you specify what payment
methods are allowed for which countries, rather than just a domestic/foreign
setting.

So maybe by integrating more options into IC, and saying goodbye to some miscellaneous
terms-based constraints that aren't actually all that necessary, we could
have an IC that doesn't require afterward manual patching.
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 20:13
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 29 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  - The seller has specified conditions in their terms that IC does not automate
(yet). For example, a maximum quantity of something per order.

That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Another reason, although not specifically one I am dealing with, is the spat
of Stripe chargebacks that sellers in the EU have been dealing with. With the
ability decline such orders, they would save themselves the chargeback fee, along
with the feedback exposure.

Nita Rae

Well, I guess what I was trying to say is, some of those criteria can be featured
within IC, without having to "manually patch" IC after the order is placed. For
example, if freight forwarder problems is a relevant thing, the system should/could
detect them based on the address settings and bar such customers from checking
out in some stores (with a warning in advance when visiting the store). As for
the Stripe situation, IC could have a feature where you specify what payment
methods are allowed for which countries, rather than just a domestic/foreign
setting.

I see where you are going there. That causes BL to make a lot of very specific
code changes. I'm asking for a general enhancement, that covers all those
cases (and perhaps more that none of us have thought about). The point remains,
QR has a capability that IC does not. That should be the driving force here.

  So maybe by integrating more options into IC, and saying goodbye to some miscellaneous
terms-based constraints that aren't actually all that necessary, we could
have an IC that doesn't require afterward manual patching.

I don't see this as manual patching. What I envision is an additional setting
for IC, that says I want to review orders as they arrive. That's all. My
guess is that 95%-99% of the orders I receive will flow as normal. It's that
small number that are causing most of my problems.

I have seriously investigated the freight forwarder problem. I am aware that
OR and DE are the states where they are commonly located. I am also aware of
at least one in NV, one or two in NY, and one I have not heard from in a long
time in FL. USPS seems to know who they are, because delivery scans get a certain
scan code, that is different from other scans. But the USPS record for that specific
address shows nothing remarkable. So I don't see how BL code pick them out
automatically.

Nita Rae
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 04:50
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 25 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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Teup (5107)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: BLOKJESKONING
In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  - The seller has specified conditions in their terms that IC does not automate
(yet). For example, a maximum quantity of something per order.

That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Another reason, although not specifically one I am dealing with, is the spat
of Stripe chargebacks that sellers in the EU have been dealing with. With the
ability decline such orders, they would save themselves the chargeback fee, along
with the feedback exposure.

Nita Rae

Well, I guess what I was trying to say is, some of those criteria can be featured
within IC, without having to "manually patch" IC after the order is placed. For
example, if freight forwarder problems is a relevant thing, the system should/could
detect them based on the address settings and bar such customers from checking
out in some stores (with a warning in advance when visiting the store). As for
the Stripe situation, IC could have a feature where you specify what payment
methods are allowed for which countries, rather than just a domestic/foreign
setting.

I see where you are going there. That causes BL to make a lot of very specific
code changes. I'm asking for a general enhancement, that covers all those
cases (and perhaps more that none of us have thought about). The point remains,
QR has a capability that IC does not. That should be the driving force here.

  So maybe by integrating more options into IC, and saying goodbye to some miscellaneous
terms-based constraints that aren't actually all that necessary, we could
have an IC that doesn't require afterward manual patching.

I don't see this as manual patching. What I envision is an additional setting
for IC, that says I want to review orders as they arrive. That's all. My
guess is that 95%-99% of the orders I receive will flow as normal. It's that
small number that are causing most of my problems.

I have seriously investigated the freight forwarder problem. I am aware that
OR and DE are the states where they are commonly located. I am also aware of
at least one in NV, one or two in NY, and one I have not heard from in a long
time in FL. USPS seems to know who they are, because delivery scans get a certain
scan code, that is different from other scans. But the USPS record for that specific
address shows nothing remarkable. So I don't see how BL code pick them out
automatically.

Nita Rae

But if you think about it, the whole point of IC is the seller setting their
desired constraints in advance. If those constraints are incomplete, then that
defeats the entire point of IC - because what really is IC, if the constraints
are incomplete? IC then basically tells the buyer "ok, you can probably go ahead
and place this order, although maybe you can't, I dunno, just go ahead and
try" For you, it may be a feature you only use in extreme cases, but a feature
is a feature: Some other seller may end up using it daily, and that would be
100% fair because after all, it's an official feature.

Even if it's more code, I think it's better to request that than to opt
for a quick-and-dirty solution that leads to disappointed buyers who may have
invested a lot of time compiling a cart. I see your point about how it's
very complicated to formalise identifying freight forwarders, that's a tough
situation. But there must be some kind of better solution for that (for example
somehow forcing buyers to specify whether they are freight forwarders or not).

By the way, there's a legal problem: If IC is connected to onsite payment
and so the payment is instant when the order is placed, that means that the order
has been confirmed. Refunding a confirmed order on the basis that the seller
just doesn't "want" to sell, would be breaking the law. When an order has
been confirmed, at least all EU and UK (and good chance US too) consumers have
a right to those products, if the seller is reasonably able to deliver. So, it
would have to be a quote request one way or the other... somehow those orders
will need to be disqualified from IC and be offered a quote request option instead.
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 06:24
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 21 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  - The seller has specified conditions in their terms that IC does not automate
(yet). For example, a maximum quantity of something per order.

That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Another reason, although not specifically one I am dealing with, is the spat
of Stripe chargebacks that sellers in the EU have been dealing with. With the
ability decline such orders, they would save themselves the chargeback fee, along
with the feedback exposure.

Nita Rae

Well, I guess what I was trying to say is, some of those criteria can be featured
within IC, without having to "manually patch" IC after the order is placed. For
example, if freight forwarder problems is a relevant thing, the system should/could
detect them based on the address settings and bar such customers from checking
out in some stores (with a warning in advance when visiting the store). As for
the Stripe situation, IC could have a feature where you specify what payment
methods are allowed for which countries, rather than just a domestic/foreign
setting.

I see where you are going there. That causes BL to make a lot of very specific
code changes. I'm asking for a general enhancement, that covers all those
cases (and perhaps more that none of us have thought about). The point remains,
QR has a capability that IC does not. That should be the driving force here.

  So maybe by integrating more options into IC, and saying goodbye to some miscellaneous
terms-based constraints that aren't actually all that necessary, we could
have an IC that doesn't require afterward manual patching.

I don't see this as manual patching. What I envision is an additional setting
for IC, that says I want to review orders as they arrive. That's all. My
guess is that 95%-99% of the orders I receive will flow as normal. It's that
small number that are causing most of my problems.

I have seriously investigated the freight forwarder problem. I am aware that
OR and DE are the states where they are commonly located. I am also aware of
at least one in NV, one or two in NY, and one I have not heard from in a long
time in FL. USPS seems to know who they are, because delivery scans get a certain
scan code, that is different from other scans. But the USPS record for that specific
address shows nothing remarkable. So I don't see how BL code pick them out
automatically.

Nita Rae

But if you think about it, the whole point of IC is the seller setting their
desired constraints in advance. If those constraints are incomplete, then that
defeats the entire point of IC - because what really is IC, if the constraints
are incomplete? IC then basically tells the buyer "ok, you can probably go ahead
and place this order, although maybe you can't, I dunno, just go ahead and
try" For you, it may be a feature you only use in extreme cases, but a feature
is a feature: Some other seller may end up using it daily, and that would be
100% fair because after all, it's an official feature.

That's an interesting perspective, but it's incorrect. IC was never implemented
to apply constraints (other than packaging). IC was implemented to solve the
NPB problem, and to force buyers to bring forth a payment, otherwise no order
exists. QR was a halfway step to IC. The original BL mechanism had no QR and
no IC. It was the wild wild west, with lots of NPB.

BL cannot, and will not, be able to implement all the constraints that can possibly
be thought of. I'm asking for FB parity with QR, that's all. Each seller
has to consider and determine their policies, and each for their own reasons.
To expect BL to micromanage those, and debate each one here, is unreasonable.
The constraints are up to each seller. If a seller has an unreasonable constraint
(e.g. only accepts crypto) then that is something that BL admin needs to discuss
with them. The individual constraints are not a discussion for the Forum, unless
it has to do with setting overall BL policy (which we have little to do with
these days).

Lest you think I'm asking for something unusual, I'm not. TLG can, and
apparently has, refused orders from people on their 'do not sell to'
list.

Nita Rae
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 06:43
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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yorbrick (907)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Yorbricks
  That's an interesting perspective, but it's incorrect. IC was never implemented
to apply constraints (other than packaging). IC was implemented to solve the
NPB problem, and to force buyers to bring forth a payment, otherwise no order
exists. QR was a halfway step to IC. The original BL mechanism had no QR and
no IC. It was the wild wild west, with lots of NPB.


It was also implemented to allow buyers to order and pay in one go, knowing that
they had placed an order. It was not to put it in a queue of possibly placed
orders that might take three days to know if it is a firm order or not depending
on whether the seller decides to accept or reject it.
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 07:18
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
  
  That's an interesting perspective, but it's incorrect. IC was never implemented
to apply constraints (other than packaging). IC was implemented to solve the
NPB problem, and to force buyers to bring forth a payment, otherwise no order
exists. QR was a halfway step to IC. The original BL mechanism had no QR and
no IC. It was the wild wild west, with lots of NPB.


It was also implemented to allow buyers to order and pay in one go, knowing that
they had placed an order. It was not to put it in a queue of possibly placed
orders that might take three days to know if it is a firm order or not depending
on whether the seller decides to accept or reject it.

Keep in mind that QR does not remove items from inventory. QR hints at the possibility
of an order. There are many reasons that QR might not happen, There are also
reasons that a completed IC, should be reversed (or declined, whichever). The
capabilities are out of balance right now. I'd like to see some balance restored.

Nita Rae
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 07:41
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 35 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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yorbrick (907)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Yorbricks
In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
  
  That's an interesting perspective, but it's incorrect. IC was never implemented
to apply constraints (other than packaging). IC was implemented to solve the
NPB problem, and to force buyers to bring forth a payment, otherwise no order
exists. QR was a halfway step to IC. The original BL mechanism had no QR and
no IC. It was the wild wild west, with lots of NPB.


It was also implemented to allow buyers to order and pay in one go, knowing that
they had placed an order. It was not to put it in a queue of possibly placed
orders that might take three days to know if it is a firm order or not depending
on whether the seller decides to accept or reject it.

Keep in mind that QR does not remove items from inventory. QR hints at the possibility
of an order. There are many reasons that QR might not happen, There are also
reasons that a completed IC, should be reversed (or declined, whichever). The
capabilities are out of balance right now. I'd like to see some balance restored.


Yes I know. A QR is a request, not an order. Whereas an order is an order, not
a request.

If I place an order, I want to know that I have actually placed an order and
not have to wait to know if the seller accepts me as a customer. If I have done
something wrong, then fair enough cancel it but there has to be oversight of
such cancellations on an online marketplace or some sellers will abuse it. Which
is why having a button for report this order for (enter reason) and let BL decide
whether it should be formally cancelled or not (wiping out all feedback for it)
is preferable to allowing a seller unilateral action to cancel any order they
want for any reason they want.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 07:03
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
 Viewed: 36 times
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Teup (5107)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: BLOKJESKONING
In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  - The seller has specified conditions in their terms that IC does not automate
(yet). For example, a maximum quantity of something per order.

That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Another reason, although not specifically one I am dealing with, is the spat
of Stripe chargebacks that sellers in the EU have been dealing with. With the
ability decline such orders, they would save themselves the chargeback fee, along
with the feedback exposure.

Nita Rae

Well, I guess what I was trying to say is, some of those criteria can be featured
within IC, without having to "manually patch" IC after the order is placed. For
example, if freight forwarder problems is a relevant thing, the system should/could
detect them based on the address settings and bar such customers from checking
out in some stores (with a warning in advance when visiting the store). As for
the Stripe situation, IC could have a feature where you specify what payment
methods are allowed for which countries, rather than just a domestic/foreign
setting.

I see where you are going there. That causes BL to make a lot of very specific
code changes. I'm asking for a general enhancement, that covers all those
cases (and perhaps more that none of us have thought about). The point remains,
QR has a capability that IC does not. That should be the driving force here.

  So maybe by integrating more options into IC, and saying goodbye to some miscellaneous
terms-based constraints that aren't actually all that necessary, we could
have an IC that doesn't require afterward manual patching.

I don't see this as manual patching. What I envision is an additional setting
for IC, that says I want to review orders as they arrive. That's all. My
guess is that 95%-99% of the orders I receive will flow as normal. It's that
small number that are causing most of my problems.

I have seriously investigated the freight forwarder problem. I am aware that
OR and DE are the states where they are commonly located. I am also aware of
at least one in NV, one or two in NY, and one I have not heard from in a long
time in FL. USPS seems to know who they are, because delivery scans get a certain
scan code, that is different from other scans. But the USPS record for that specific
address shows nothing remarkable. So I don't see how BL code pick them out
automatically.

Nita Rae

But if you think about it, the whole point of IC is the seller setting their
desired constraints in advance. If those constraints are incomplete, then that
defeats the entire point of IC - because what really is IC, if the constraints
are incomplete? IC then basically tells the buyer "ok, you can probably go ahead
and place this order, although maybe you can't, I dunno, just go ahead and
try" For you, it may be a feature you only use in extreme cases, but a feature
is a feature: Some other seller may end up using it daily, and that would be
100% fair because after all, it's an official feature.

That's an interesting perspective, but it's incorrect. IC was never implemented
to apply constraints (other than packaging). IC was implemented to solve the
NPB problem, and to force buyers to bring forth a payment, otherwise no order
exists.

Did they state that? My IC orders are usually offsite payment and the number
of NPBs didn't decrease because of IC for me (it was already rare).
To me it seems clear they implemented it just to get in line with modern e-commerce
standards where you place your order right away, and you see immediately what
you can and cannot do, and what it will cost.


  BL cannot, and will not, be able to implement all the constraints that can possibly
be thought of.

And that is why I said it's time for sellers to say goodbye to some complicated
constraints that aren't really necessary (and usually frustrate the buying
experience anyway). BrickOwl doesn't offer sellers to specify any terms and
policies outside of a predetermined set of options, and I haven't heard people
complain about it. I think many constraints come from unprofessional sellers
who don't really understand that dropping them would actually generate a
lot more business for everyone. I've been advocating for the removal of the
terms section for a long time, I think it really would be the next step in professionalizing
Bricklink. Currently we have an awkward situation where many seller specify things
that actually are against laws and regulations but Bricklink just says "and remember
guys, don't break the law!" but it never enforces anything unless they are
being pressured heavily.

If freight forwarding is a serious issue, it could be tackled through other means,
and possibly be added to the various options and tools we already have when setting
up IC.

  Lest you think I'm asking for something unusual, I'm not. TLG can, and
apparently has, refused orders from people on their 'do not sell to'
list.

Yes, but that is different; These people are not able to create an order and
receive a confirmation. Refusing customers is possible, but denying delivery
after confirmation is against the law. It's only possible before confirmation
(and thus before payment). You can refuse the customer or the quote request,
but after that it's too late.
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 07:25
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
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Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  Lest you think I'm asking for something unusual, I'm not. TLG can, and
apparently has, refused orders from people on their 'do not sell to'
list.

Yes, but that is different; These people are not able to create an order and
receive a confirmation. Refusing customers is possible, but denying delivery
after confirmation is against the law. It's only possible before confirmation
(and thus before payment). You can refuse the customer or the quote request,
but after that it's too late.

You are missing the boat. What I am suggesting here is exactly like what TLG
does. Now, since you brought it up, lets go down that road a bit farther. The
sticking point (from what I'm reading) is the actual completion of the payment.
You do not like that being reversed. OK, lets do that. Both Stripe and PayPal
support payment authorization prior to actually completing the payment.
To accomplish exactly what TLG is doing, is to authorize the payment, but not
do the actual payment transfer until the seller accepts the order. That's
how you assure the a payment is possible, but you don't incur the fees until
the seller decides to accept the order. It's actually much cleaner that way,
and likely would really cut down on those Stripe chargebacks happening in the
UK.

Nita Rae
 Author: qwertyboy View Messages Posted By qwertyboy
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 11:14
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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qwertyboy (6609)

Location:  Canada, Alberta
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 9, 2013 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Maple Bricks
In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  Both Stripe and PayPal
support payment authorization prior to actually completing the payment.
To accomplish exactly what TLG is doing, is to authorize the payment, but not
do the actual payment transfer until the seller accepts the order.

Several years ago BL went with PayPal for Market Places. It follows a strict
path for the monies to flow. For one, BL is able to use it to automatically siphon
off any taxes before the remainder of the payment reaches the seller. I don't
believe PP4MP is capable of delaying the actual payment, as this would interfere
with the process (it would no longer be a one-flow-process, but would break it
up into two flows with an undetermined amount of time in between).

The reason TLG is able to do authorizations is because they are the final recipients
of the payments, and not an intermediate party. These are two very different
transactions.

Niek.
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 20:47
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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SezaR (789)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
  That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Hi Nata,

Have you actually ever had any bad experience related to an order shipped to
a freight forwardar?

How was that experience? Did you lose money or did a buyer file a PayPal claim
against you?
 Author: popsicle View Messages Posted By popsicle
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 20:59
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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popsicle (6046)

Location:  USA, Washington
Member Since Contact Type Status
Feb 21, 2006 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: ConstrucToys
In Suggestions, SezaR writes:
  
  That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Hi Nata,

Have you actually ever had any bad experience related to an order shipped to
a freight forwardar?

How was that experience? Did you lose money or did a buyer file a PayPal claim
against you?

Good question. Maybe put the same to Nita Rae, Nata's sister
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 06:06
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, SezaR writes:
  
  That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Hi Nata,

Have you actually ever had any bad experience related to an order shipped to
a freight forwardar?

Yes.

  How was that experience? Did you lose money or did a buyer file a PayPal claim
against you?

Yes, to both parts.

Nita Rae
 Author: firestar246 View Messages Posted By firestar246
 Posted: Sep 14, 2021 07:48
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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firestar246 (7922)

Location:  USA, Missouri
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 12, 2016 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Tons of Bricks (GDM)
In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  In Suggestions, SezaR writes:
  
  That's one of the reasons (but certainly not the only one) for this suggestion.
BL has no way to filter buyers who place orders using freight forwarders. I wish
to decline such orders.

Hi Nata,

Have you actually ever had any bad experience related to an order shipped to
a freight forwardar?

Yes.

  How was that experience? Did you lose money or did a buyer file a PayPal claim
against you?

Yes, to both parts.

Nita Rae

Don't let one (or a couple) bad eggs ruin the whole batch.
 Author: manganschlamm View Messages Posted By manganschlamm
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 15:03
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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manganschlamm (1654)

Location:  Germany, Nordrhein-Westfalen
Member Since Contact Type Status
Mar 8, 2016 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  Backstory: Instant Checkout (IC) has been a boon for BL, for sellers, and for
buyers. Prior to IC, buyers could request, and sellers could respond to quote
requests (QR). IC and QR are mutually exclusive, You can have one or the other,
but not both.

One of the things that QR permits (although obliquely) is the ability to tacitly
decline an order. That happens when a seller fails to respond to the QR within
three days. Buyers can also decline a completed QR, by not paying for three days.
If either party fails to perform within their three day window, the QR fails,
is terminated, and there is no residual baggage (in either direction). It is
a potential-order, which never happened.

That last bit was lost with Instant Checkout. Buyers have the full opportunity
to review seller's terms, and to see the automated shipping costs. That should
be sufficient for the buyer to complete all due diligence. Unfortunately not
all buyers pay attention to seller's terms, and/or try to place special terms
upon the order (via the comments field). They do not give the seller the opportunity
to decline the order (for whatever reason), and the ability to leave feedback
(i.e. residual baggage) is automatically created, even if the seller OCRs the
order and refunds the payment.

Suggestion: Give the seller the optional capability to review all incoming IC-based
orders, and either accept or decline the order. Declining the order would have
the same effect as not responding to a QR, plus it will generate an automatic
refund. Not selecting one or the other for three days, would have the same effect
as declining it. Accepting an order, would be invisible to the buyer, and the
seller would proceed exactly as they do today. The difference in this, is that
a declined order would not leave either party with the ability to drop feedback
(which is where many problems have happened as of late). It would restore the
seller's ability to control order flow.

Thank You

Nita Rae

Sounds a bit double to me; With IC, the seller already specified what orders
they accept and which they don't accept. If there still is an order that
could be placed but the seller didn't want it, it can be because:

- They made a mistake in their IC setup (their fault)
- The seller doesn't have time (also their fault, shop should be closed then)
- The seller has specified conditions in their terms that IC does not automate
(yet). For example, a maximum quantity of something per order.

That last point is a tricky one. I think Bricklink should implement any condition
that we consider useful, and just ditch the rest - disallow sellers to specify
such things manually in their terms. E.g. maximum quantity per order can be useful,
but some sellers invent very creative mathematical and pretty pointless conditions
that are pretty hard to comprehend when you just wanna do some online shopping.

Buyers just don't really read terms, and that's a fact of life. That's
just how e-commerce works. IMO, they should be simple, and anything that does
not fit in IC, should not be allowed. Just like at BrickOwl. Then we have a system
that is clear to the buyer, and only lets through orders that the seller specified
as desired.


Fully agree. Many buyers do not read terms, but not out of laziness but because
they do not have time. They are not the professionals here, but the sellers are.
And some stores have actually pages and pages of terms, German stores in particular.
Nobody can read all that legal stuff. This is why I absolutely prefer to buy
from stores which have IC with onsite payment. It takes me right to my paypal
after placing the order and I am done.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 15:32
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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SylvainLS (37)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: BuyerOnly
BrickLink Discussions Moderator (?)
In Suggestions, manganschlamm writes:
  […]
And some stores have actually pages and pages of terms, German stores in particular.

Two opposite answers:

1. You’re right.  (Especially when the terms are in German and you don’t read
German )

2. The German stores’ terms are a legal obligation and are all the same blah
that repeats the buyer’s rights.  So it’s actually sort-of reassuring that the
seller knows the law, at least to the extent of having undertood they had to
put that there¹, and that they can’t weasel out of it as it’s all in their terms.

(¹All EU share common consumer rights but, AFAIK, only Germany has that strong
obligation… and “good-willing organizations” to force its application.)
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 20:04
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, manganschlamm writes:
  Fully agree. Many buyers do not read terms, but not out of laziness but because
they do not have time.

Right, and I accept that. If a seller determines what Terms they operate under,
and the buyer ignores/evades/does not have time or does not care, should that
mean that the seller's terms are nullified ? What I'm suggesting here
is for the seller to have a safe harbor for exactly the situation you
describe. One where the seller can back away from the order with no harm done.
That currently does not exist, and esp when the buyer decides the seller's
terms are irrelevant and should not apply. The buyer is, effectively, forcing
the seller to ignore what they clearly made available prior to the order being
placed.

  They are not the professionals here, but the sellers are.

The seller's can only operate within the realm of the tools provided by BL.
That is what this suggestion is all about, giving the sellers a tool that is
missing.


  This is why I absolutely prefer to buy
from stores which have IC with onsite payment. It takes me right to my paypal
after placing the order and I am done.

And I do understand that, and I do realize the importance of IC. But QR gives
us a capability that IC does not. That's what we are discussing.

Nita Rae
 Author: randyipp View Messages Posted By randyipp
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 13:23
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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randyipp (2493)

Location:  USA, New Hampshire
Member Since Contact Type Status
Dec 24, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Addicted to Building
Or you could just relax a bit on your terms, not sure why you care so much about
freight forwarders and foreign buyers. Maybe it is just time to accept these
transactions and deal with a slight increase in fees, a sale is a sale right?
 Author: cosmicray View Messages Posted By cosmicray
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 13:44
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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cosmicray (3210)

Location:  USA, Florida
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 1, 2000 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: Cosmic Toys
In Suggestions, randyipp writes:
  Or you could just relax a bit on your terms, not sure why you care so much about
freight forwarders and foreign buyers. Maybe it is just time to accept these
transactions and deal with a slight increase in fees, a sale is a sale right?

It's not about fees, it's about outright fraud. Go read my suggestion
about Addresses, that will give you some more information about the problem.

The fraud problem is real, and it's related to chargebacks when combined
with cross border payments. BL has no way to vet new buyers, from any country.

Nita Rae
 Author: manganschlamm View Messages Posted By manganschlamm
 Posted: Sep 13, 2021 14:51
 Subject: Re: IC: accept order or decline order
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 Topic: Suggestions
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manganschlamm (1654)

Location:  Germany, Nordrhein-Westfalen
Member Since Contact Type Status
Mar 8, 2016 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
  Backstory: Instant Checkout (IC) has been a boon for BL, for sellers, and for
buyers. Prior to IC, buyers could request, and sellers could respond to quote
requests (QR). IC and QR are mutually exclusive, You can have one or the other,
but not both.

One of the things that QR permits (although obliquely) is the ability to tacitly
decline an order. That happens when a seller fails to respond to the QR within
three days. Buyers can also decline a completed QR, by not paying for three days.
If either party fails to perform within their three day window, the QR fails,
is terminated, and there is no residual baggage (in either direction). It is
a potential-order, which never happened.

That last bit was lost with Instant Checkout. Buyers have the full opportunity
to review seller's terms, and to see the automated shipping costs. That should
be sufficient for the buyer to complete all due diligence. Unfortunately not
all buyers pay attention to seller's terms, and/or try to place special terms
upon the order (via the comments field). They do not give the seller the opportunity
to decline the order (for whatever reason), and the ability to leave feedback
(i.e. residual baggage) is automatically created, even if the seller OCRs the
order and refunds the payment.

Suggestion: Give the seller the optional capability to review all incoming IC-based
orders, and either accept or decline the order. Declining the order would have
the same effect as not responding to a QR, plus it will generate an automatic
refund. Not selecting one or the other for three days, would have the same effect
as declining it. Accepting an order, would be invisible to the buyer, and the
seller would proceed exactly as they do today. The difference in this, is that
a declined order would not leave either party with the ability to drop feedback
(which is where many problems have happened as of late). It would restore the
seller's ability to control order flow.

Thank You

Nita Rae


I strongly disagree with this proposal, simply because it puts the buyer in a
bad position in multiple ways. For example, if a seller has a desirable item,
a buyer may place an order and the seller sees there is demand, declines the
order and raises the price. I particularly like the IC system with onsite payment
option, because I see upon checkout what exactly I have to pay, I place the order,
pay immediately and I am done with it.

I can then lean back and wait for the order to arrive. And when there are problems,
I have protection. I am completely tired of the days when sellers would play
games, one had to guess shipping costs and get a bad surprise, sellers would
make random additions of weird fees and all that crap. The IC with onsite payment
is the way forward. Things are crystal clear for both sides when an order is
placed.