Discussion Forum: Thread 279457

 Author: bje View Messages Posted By bje
 Posted: Dec 1, 2020 02:44
 Subject: In sales posts disclose all fees
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 Topic: Suggestions
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bje (1522)

Location:  South Africa, Western Cape
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When sales and promotions posts are made on the forum, please have sellers disclose
all of the fees and additional charges as part of the forum post.

It is presumably also an unfair business practice in other economies to not include
important information in a promotion. Negating a discount through fees is sort
of important information.
 Author: Brickwilbo View Messages Posted By Brickwilbo
 Posted: Dec 1, 2020 03:35
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
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 Topic: Suggestions
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Brickwilbo (1501)

Location:  Netherlands, Gelderland
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In Suggestions, bje writes:
  When sales and promotions posts are made on the forum, please have sellers disclose
all of the fees and additional charges as part of the forum post.

It is presumably also an unfair business practice in other economies to not include
important information in a promotion. Negating a discount through fees is sort
of important information.

Then it should be also included in the store mailing list,
because with one click the message is also posted in the sales forum.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Dec 1, 2020 04:37
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
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 Topic: Suggestions
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yorbrick (855)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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In Suggestions, bje writes:
  When sales and promotions posts are made on the forum, please have sellers disclose
all of the fees and additional charges as part of the forum post.

It is presumably also an unfair business practice in other economies to not include
important information in a promotion. Negating a discount through fees is sort
of important information.

I don't see the point, as many sales advertised here are false sales anyway.
So if you give a 7% discount and add on 8% for paypal for example, does it actually
matter when the seller does not have to say what the original prices are based
on? If they have to state they add on X for fees, they will avoid saying that
by increasing the base prices by the fee and then leaving out the statement.

Some stores have been doing Black Friday discounts on prices that they have recently
increased. I know this as I have open carts with a number of stores, and so I
can see that the in-cart prices have gone up even though they are offering a
25% discount.
 Author: firestar246 View Messages Posted By firestar246
 Posted: Dec 1, 2020 06:13
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
 Viewed: 58 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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firestar246 (6157)

Location:  USA, Missouri
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In Suggestions, bje writes:
  When sales and promotions posts are made on the forum, please have sellers disclose
all of the fees and additional charges as part of the forum post.

It is presumably also an unfair business practice in other economies to not include
important information in a promotion. Negating a discount through fees is sort
of important information.

I'm not sure I understand... if all fees are disclosed on the store terms
page, why does a quick 5% off post need to have the fees included in it?

Are you included shipping charges in that statement?
 Author: hpoort View Messages Posted By hpoort
 Posted: Dec 1, 2020 13:24
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
 Viewed: 42 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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hpoort (405)

Location:  Netherlands, Groningen
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In Suggestions, firestar246 writes:
  In Suggestions, bje writes:
  When sales and promotions posts are made on the forum, please have sellers disclose
all of the fees and additional charges as part of the forum post.

It is presumably also an unfair business practice in other economies to not include
important information in a promotion. Negating a discount through fees is sort
of important information.

I'm not sure I understand... if all fees are disclosed on the store terms
page, why does a quick 5% off post need to have the fees included in it?

Are you included shipping charges in that statement?

@Jean: Good relevant request even though personally I structurally ignore all
those sales posts.

@Firestar:
Because in at least one of the world's countries it is illegal not to explicitly
disclose this essential information in the advertisement itself. https://www.reclamecode.nl/nrc_taxonomy/algemeen/
#8.4 Disclosure of full address and all costs are deemed essential for distant
selling advertisements.

And indeed, if you advertise 5% off on everything, that must include the same
discount on shipping unless specified otherwise. If the discount is on the products
only, the sale post is in fact misleading, which is illegal as well. That means
that the majority of sales posts here on Bricklink are in fact breaking the ToS
to comply with the applicable laws.
 Author: popsicle View Messages Posted By popsicle
 Posted: Dec 1, 2020 15:27
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
 Viewed: 73 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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popsicle (5948)

Location:  USA, Washington
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In Suggestions, hpoort writes:
  In Suggestions, firestar246 writes:
  In Suggestions, bje writes:
  When sales and promotions posts are made on the forum, please have sellers disclose
all of the fees and additional charges as part of the forum post.

It is presumably also an unfair business practice in other economies to not include
important information in a promotion. Negating a discount through fees is sort
of important information.

I'm not sure I understand... if all fees are disclosed on the store terms
page, why does a quick 5% off post need to have the fees included in it?

Are you included shipping charges in that statement?

@Jean: Good relevant request even though personally I structurally ignore all
those sales posts.

@Firestar:
Because in at least one of the world's countries it is illegal not to explicitly
disclose this essential information in the advertisement itself. https://www.reclamecode.nl/nrc_taxonomy/algemeen/
#8.4 Disclosure of full address and all costs are deemed essential for distant
selling advertisements.

And indeed, if you advertise 5% off on everything, that must include the same
discount on shipping unless specified otherwise. If the discount is on the products
only, the sale post is in fact misleading,

  which is illegal as well. That means that the majority of sales posts here on Bricklink are in fact breaking the ToS to comply with the applicable laws.

No offense, but...

The global stage of commerce is not mandated by the EU nor by any other specific
region in the world!

How can any rational thought expect all of the world's economic laws and
regs concatenated, be adhered to in a single transaction? If such a thing were
actually attempted, it would cripple commerce with conflation and disaccord

Who wouldn't want to hand their personal business decisions over to unelected
bureaucrats of other nations Let's not go down that rabbit hole of which
nation's law/regs are to be adopted and to what extent, not yet anyway!

Laws, regulations and taxes on this side of the pond, are created by those we
elect or have chosen to represent our interest. Hopefully it's the
same for you and others.

My point is simple, be more reserved with such terms as "illegal" when applying
it to the actions other members, as some are wont to do here.

It's moot anyway, as the global path that BL/TLG takes and expresses in their
ToS contract, is what we've agreed to. It's the site that is threading
the needle, in other words.

-popsicle
 Author: Tracyd View Messages Posted By Tracyd
 Posted: Dec 1, 2020 15:35
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
 Viewed: 36 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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Tracyd (290)

Location:  USA, Texas
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In Suggestions, popsicle writes:
  In Suggestions, hpoort writes:
  In Suggestions, firestar246 writes:
  In Suggestions, bje writes:
  When sales and promotions posts are made on the forum, please have sellers disclose
all of the fees and additional charges as part of the forum post.

It is presumably also an unfair business practice in other economies to not include
important information in a promotion. Negating a discount through fees is sort
of important information.

I'm not sure I understand... if all fees are disclosed on the store terms
page, why does a quick 5% off post need to have the fees included in it?

Are you included shipping charges in that statement?

@Jean: Good relevant request even though personally I structurally ignore all
those sales posts.

@Firestar:



  
  Because in at least one of the world's countries it is illegal not to explicitly
disclose this essential information in the advertisement itself. https://www.reclamecode.nl/nrc_taxonomy/algemeen/
#8.4 Disclosure of full address and all costs are deemed essential for distant
selling advertisements.

And indeed, if you advertise 5% off on everything, that must include the same
discount on shipping unless specified otherwise. If the discount is on the products
only, the sale post is in fact misleading,

  which is illegal as well. That means that the majority of sales posts here on Bricklink are in fact breaking the ToS to comply with the applicable laws.

No offense, but...

The global stage of commerce is not mandated by the EU nor by any other specific
region in the world!

How can any rational thought expect all of the world's economic laws and
regs concatenated, be adhered to in a single transaction? If such a thing were
actually attempted, it would cripple commerce with conflation and disaccord

Who wouldn't want to hand their personal business decisions over to unelected
bureaucrats of other nations Let's not go down that rabbit hole of which
nation's law/regs are to be adopted and to what extent, not yet anyway!

Laws, regulations and taxes on this side of the pond, are created by those we
elect or have chosen to represent our interest. Hopefully it's the
same for you and others.

My point is simple, be more reserved with such terms as "illegal" when applying
it to the actions other members, as some are wont to do here.

It's moot anyway, as the global path that BL/TLG takes and expresses in their
ToS contract, is what we've agreed to. It's the site that is threading
the needle, in other words.

-popsicle

I'd much rather the limit on "sales" post be enforced. You can't dictate
pricing but you can limit access to the forums for repeated, redundant sales
posts. But that doesn't cure the phony sales posts. One thing that might
help is having the country of the store shown on the subject line or by the
user name. Right now I am not ordering internationally and would like to be
able to ignore all notices that I am not interested in.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Dec 1, 2020 16:36
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
 Viewed: 31 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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yorbrick (855)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
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Store: Yorbricks
In Suggestions, Tracyd writes:
  In Suggestions, popsicle writes:
  In Suggestions, hpoort writes:
  In Suggestions, firestar246 writes:
  In Suggestions, bje writes:
  When sales and promotions posts are made on the forum, please have sellers disclose
all of the fees and additional charges as part of the forum post.

It is presumably also an unfair business practice in other economies to not include
important information in a promotion. Negating a discount through fees is sort
of important information.

I'm not sure I understand... if all fees are disclosed on the store terms
page, why does a quick 5% off post need to have the fees included in it?

Are you included shipping charges in that statement?

@Jean: Good relevant request even though personally I structurally ignore all
those sales posts.

@Firestar:



  
  Because in at least one of the world's countries it is illegal not to explicitly
disclose this essential information in the advertisement itself. https://www.reclamecode.nl/nrc_taxonomy/algemeen/
#8.4 Disclosure of full address and all costs are deemed essential for distant
selling advertisements.

And indeed, if you advertise 5% off on everything, that must include the same
discount on shipping unless specified otherwise. If the discount is on the products
only, the sale post is in fact misleading,

  which is illegal as well. That means that the majority of sales posts here on Bricklink are in fact breaking the ToS to comply with the applicable laws.

No offense, but...

The global stage of commerce is not mandated by the EU nor by any other specific
region in the world!

How can any rational thought expect all of the world's economic laws and
regs concatenated, be adhered to in a single transaction? If such a thing were
actually attempted, it would cripple commerce with conflation and disaccord

Who wouldn't want to hand their personal business decisions over to unelected
bureaucrats of other nations Let's not go down that rabbit hole of which
nation's law/regs are to be adopted and to what extent, not yet anyway!

Laws, regulations and taxes on this side of the pond, are created by those we
elect or have chosen to represent our interest. Hopefully it's the
same for you and others.

My point is simple, be more reserved with such terms as "illegal" when applying
it to the actions other members, as some are wont to do here.

It's moot anyway, as the global path that BL/TLG takes and expresses in their
ToS contract, is what we've agreed to. It's the site that is threading
the needle, in other words.

-popsicle

I'd much rather the limit on "sales" post be enforced. You can't dictate
pricing but you can limit access to the forums for repeated, redundant sales
posts. But that doesn't cure the phony sales posts. One thing that might
help is having the country of the store shown on the subject line or by the
user name. Right now I am not ordering internationally and would like to be
able to ignore all notices that I am not interested in.

You can enforce it yourself. I have about a dozen or so stores that are both
least favourites stores and also on my forum ignore list due to excessive and/or
fake sale posts. And a lot more least favourite stores for fake sales. If someone
advertises a sale here and their prices are still above average for common items,
I add them to my least favourites. Chances are I wouldn't but from them anyway
but at least adding them stops them coming up in wants list searches.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Dec 1, 2020 16:40
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
 Viewed: 36 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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SylvainLS (36)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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In Suggestions, Tracyd writes:
  […]
I'd much rather the limit on "sales" post be enforced.

1 post per 24h is not a hard rule but we do try to explain and enforce it.

Now, if high-feedback sellers and buyers could explain to them that it’s not
very useful….
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 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Dec 1, 2020 16:51
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
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SylvainLS (36)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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In Suggestions, popsicle writes:
  […]
No offense, but...

The global stage of commerce is not mandated by the EU nor by any other specific
region in the world!

Sellers could at least follow the laws of their own countries.


  […]
Who wouldn't want to hand their personal business decisions over to unelected
bureaucrats of other nations

And please refrein repeating that propaganda and talking politics.
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 Author: bje View Messages Posted By bje
 Posted: Dec 2, 2020 00:38
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
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bje (1522)

Location:  South Africa, Western Cape
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In Suggestions, popsicle writes:
  In Suggestions, hpoort writes:
  In Suggestions, firestar246 writes:
  In Suggestions, bje writes:
  When sales and promotions posts are made on the forum, please have sellers disclose
all of the fees and additional charges as part of the forum post.

It is presumably also an unfair business practice in other economies to not include
important information in a promotion. Negating a discount through fees is sort
of important information.

I'm not sure I understand... if all fees are disclosed on the store terms
page, why does a quick 5% off post need to have the fees included in it?

See below

  
  
  
Are you included shipping charges in that statement?

@Jean: Good relevant request even though personally I structurally ignore all
those sales posts.

@Firestar:
Because in at least one of the world's countries it is illegal not to explicitly
disclose this essential information in the advertisement itself. https://www.reclamecode.nl/nrc_taxonomy/algemeen/
#8.4 Disclosure of full address and all costs are deemed essential for distant
selling advertisements.

And indeed, if you advertise 5% off on everything, that must include the same
discount on shipping unless specified otherwise. If the discount is on the products
only, the sale post is in fact misleading,

  which is illegal as well. That means that the majority of sales posts here on Bricklink are in fact breaking the ToS to comply with the applicable laws.

No offense, but...

The global stage of commerce is not mandated by the EU nor by any other specific
region in the world!

How can any rational thought expect all of the world's economic laws and
regs concatenated, be adhered to in a single transaction? If such a thing were
actually attempted, it would cripple commerce with conflation and disaccord

None of what was said is any way determined to take away rational thinking. If
sale terms specifically wish to exploit a certain loophole, then just say so.
There is nothing in any law which prevents a seller from advertising goods to
the exclusion of another region or a specific person.

My original post was for the site to stop a certain mercenary practice, which
you would think should be good sense anyway. Which is to give the customer all
of the required information upfront as part of the promotion.

Alternatively put, imagine if your local supermarket advertises with a mail shot
that all soap is 20% off terms only in store. Climb in your car, get to the store,
put the items in a cart when there are no specific terms mentioned on the item
shelf, walk to the till and then get hit a 25% surcharge for packaging on soap.
When you say, no this is not what was advertised, the till operator points to
a small sign next to the till which says this. And then refuse to cancel your
purchase and force you to pay before you can leave. And throws a hissy fit. And
bars you from ever coming back.

If this sort of practice makes sense, it would be understandable that one would
balk at the notion of actually giving customers all of the required information
needed to make a binding decision.

Many sellers absolutely cannot stand the thought of cancelling an order if a
buyer asks them to. I should like to think that sellers be allowed to set the
hook once a customer nibbles, provided the lure they hang out is not coated with
poison.
  
Who wouldn't want to hand their personal business decisions over to unelected
bureaucrats of other nations Let's not go down that rabbit hole of which
nation's law/regs are to be adopted and to what extent, not yet anyway!

Laws, regulations and taxes on this side of the pond, are created by those we
elect or have chosen to represent our interest. Hopefully it's the
same for you and others.

Politics - willingly giving some people permission to tell you what to think
and make you pay for the privilege.

  
My point is simple, be more reserved with such terms as "illegal" when applying
it to the actions other members, as some are wont to do here.

It's moot anyway, as the global path that BL/TLG takes and expresses in their
ToS contract, is what we've agreed to. It's the site that is threading
the needle, in other words.

-popsicle

Yes the ToS says a lot of things many sellers do not care for and actually do
not do or know about. So does PayPal's terms, so does every other commercial
entity. We can expect to self-police and be good at it as adults, but self-policing
(which is what I think you mean here, but I could be wrong) does not really work
- actually I've not known of any organisation which has tried to self-police
and be successful at it. If self policing was in any way successful, then feedback
would have been the most trustworthy aspect of this site.
 Author: Rob_and_Shelagh View Messages Posted By Rob_and_Shelagh
 Posted: Dec 2, 2020 04:47
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
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Rob_and_Shelagh (23925)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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In Suggestions, bje writes:

[snip]

Reflecting on this one...

We've been successfully trading on here for 15 years and have seen, commented
on (and even complained about ) many poor (and some illegal) selling practices.
In all that time we've never had or even felt the need to have a sale.
Like everywhere else some sales are genuine opportunities to get a bargain but
most are not. I don't think it is possible without removing aspects of the
free market to regulate sales or descriptions of what constitutes a sale here,
there are too many variables. I think the vast majority of BL buyers are smart
enough to watch out for the small print as they have to with or without sales;
I think it is some of the ridiculous add-on charges themselves that are the problem
rather than the sales here. Complex fees are a turn off to buyers and maybe it
is many of those stores that resort to them that need to have sales to offset
the negative effect of them on orders. I'm not sure a fix is needed here
but if it is then perhaps the easiest way would be simply to remove the sales
feature altogether but I'm not suggesting that.

Robert
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Dec 2, 2020 04:52
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
 Viewed: 35 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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yorbrick (855)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Yorbricks
In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
  In Suggestions, bje writes:

[snip]

Reflecting on this one...

We've been successfully trading on here for 15 years and have seen, commented
on (and even complained about ) many poor (and some illegal) selling practices.
In all that time we've never had or even felt the need to have a sale.
Like everywhere else some sales are genuine opportunities to get a bargain but
most are not. I don't think it is possible without removing aspects of the
free market to regulate sales or descriptions of what constitutes a sale here,
there are too many variables. I think the vast majority of BL buyers are smart
enough to watch out for the small print as they have to with or without sales;
I think it is some of the ridiculous add-on charges themselves that are the problem
rather than the sales here. Complex fees are a turn off to buyers and maybe it
is many of those stores that resort to them that need to have sales to offset
the negative effect of them on orders. I'm not sure a fix is needed here
but if it is then perhaps the easiest way would be simply to remove the sales
feature altogether but I'm not suggesting that.

Plus individual buyers will see different things from sales posts. I often look
at them and I reckon I end up least favouriting more stores than I actually buy
from after following a "huge sale" link.
 Author: firestar246 View Messages Posted By firestar246
 Posted: Dec 1, 2020 17:02
 Subject: Re: In sales posts disclose all fees
 Viewed: 41 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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firestar246 (6157)

Location:  USA, Missouri
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 12, 2016 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Tons of Bricks (GDM)
In Suggestions, hpoort writes:
  In Suggestions, firestar246 writes:

  
@Firestar:
Because in at least one of the world's countries it is illegal not to explicitly
disclose this essential information in the advertisement itself. https://www.reclamecode.nl/nrc_taxonomy/algemeen/
#8.4 Disclosure of full address and all costs are deemed essential for distant
selling advertisements.

And indeed, if you advertise 5% off on everything, that must include the same
discount on shipping unless specified otherwise. If the discount is on the products
only, the sale post is in fact misleading, which is illegal as well. That means
that the majority of sales posts here on Bricklink are in fact breaking the ToS
to comply with the applicable laws.

You slightly misunderstood my shipping question (I do admit it is vague and not
well written). What I meant was, when OP is talking about disclosing fees, does
that include shipping fees? As in, would he want me, on a 5% off sale post, include:

An order weighing x weight to x country costs $x to ship

And then repeat that 50 times to cover every weight bracket and country I ship
to?



And to you directly, so because only one country (that you know of) requires
that information, everyone regardless of what country they are situated in, should
be forced to include that information? Any BL sellers from that country should
abide by that law but not the others. Please, less restrictions and rules on
the sellers.

Being honest here, if a buyer isn't going to check the store terms for fees,
he's probably not going to even read the sale itself, just the title.