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| | | Author: | wyvern  | | Posted: | Feb 25, 2024 12:46 | | Subject: | + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 112 times | | Topic: | Catalog | | Status: | Open | |
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| There's the Tile, Modified category, which includes parts like
All of which are obviously indeed "modified", because they are tiles
with something extra. So why aren't these round tiles (among others) considered
modified as well?
The same applies to plates; with the current logic, these are just a few that
should be Plate, Round, Modified. It's ... interesting to note that these
parts are instead spread across two categories as of now (Plate, Round & Tile,
Round).
But that's all about categories that don't exist yet. On a more immediate
note, I also wonder what the catalog's logic is for categorizing jumpers.
To me, they look primarily a tile, so I would think to look under Tile, Modified.
Especially with parts like
Bear with me here, I'm using that extreme example to make a point: It seems
like it meets the requirements to be classified as a jumper (flat piece with
studs only in the middle, and antistuds on the bottom). And when you look at
that part, or an officially recognized 1x2 jumper, do you see "a tile with
studs", or "a plate with studs not there and/or moved to the middle
of the part"? The latter is nonsense, frankly. Never mind the fact that jumpers
now have a groove, a feature which is reserved for what? Tiles.
And look at parts like
that are already under Tile, Modified, and rightly so. Now look at a jumper.
Is that jumper closer to the above part, or the below part from Plate, Modified?
I'm sorry, but the answer is obvious. Jumpers are modified tiles.
Similarly, more catalog browsing leads us to this part, which is under Plate,
Modified, despite being an undeniable relative of 33909 (and therefore should
most certainly be considered a modified tile)
Anyway, to sum it up, I think the categorization logic needs better consistency.
Modified round tiles/plates should get their own category, and jumpers should
go under Tile, Modified instead of Plate, Modified (and if they're round,
put them under the newly created Tile, Round, Modified). I'm curious about
the current reasoning for the way this all is right now. I'm sure I'm
not the first to think of these things, and while I feel strongly about these
changes and that my logic is sound, I'm obligated to assume I'm missing
something and that it's the way it currently is for a reason.
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| | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Feb 25, 2024 14:11 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| | | All of which are obviously indeed "modified", because they are tiles
with something extra. So why aren't these round tiles (among others) considered
modified as well?
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Probably because there would be so few parts left in round tiles if all the modified
versions were removed.
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| | | | | Author: | jennnifer | | Posted: | Feb 25, 2024 14:27 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 49 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog Requests, wyvern writes:
| | There's the Tile, Modified category, which includes parts like
All of which are obviously indeed "modified", because they are tiles
with something extra. So why aren't these round tiles (among others) considered
modified as well?
|
You would like them to split a category with just 24 items in it? Is this really
a problem?
Not all categories use the same definitions.
https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=1568
Otherwise, we'd have a modified and a decorated for every single category.
~Jen
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| | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Feb 25, 2024 14:32 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog Requests, jennnifer writes:
| | Otherwise, we'd have a modified and a decorated for every single category.
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Technic, Pin, Decorated?
Minifigure, Head, Decorated?
Uh uh.
I can guess how many hours and hours Catalog people with various opinions have
to discuss 
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| | | | | | | Author: | wyvern | | Posted: | Feb 25, 2024 15:33 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| | | You would like them to split a category with just 24 items in it? Is this really
a problem?
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Yes I would and yes it is  As this is how these parts, objectively, should
be categorized; the way it is now doesn't have any rationale behind it other
than "too small". Just because there aren't that many doesn't
mean they should be lumped together in categories they don't belong. If there
wasn't the precedent of the modified rectangular tiles/plates categories
already existing, and the modifieds were in with the regulars, then there would
be no justification for my proposal. But rectangular is split into modified and
regular, so there's no good reason round shouldn't be as well. It makes
browsing the catalog much more user friendly when things are organized intuitively
and consistently.
And Lego is making new parts all the time, so these sparse categories might get
populated soon enough.
This is the kind of info I was looking for, and it's interesting! Looks like
Use/Function carries more weight than Shape, which goes against my opinion that
jumpers should move to Tile, Modified. I admit jumpers are used far more as plates
than as tiles, so this hierarchy technically wins. But I'm not fully convinced;
now I think it's more of a gray area, as intuitively they still are tiles
with studs on them more than anything else. One could say they are modified tiles
I mean look at that one! The hierarchy really should make an exception and call
them tiles. Plus, there are already plenty of modified tiles that aren't
actually used as tiles (but are still definitely modified tiles):
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | randyf | | Posted: | Feb 25, 2024 15:53 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog Requests, wyvern writes:
| | | | You would like them to split a category with just 24 items in it? Is this really
a problem?
|
Yes I would and yes it is As this is how these parts, objectively, should
be categorized; the way it is now doesn't have any rationale behind it other
than "too small". Just because there aren't that many doesn't
mean they should be lumped together in categories they don't belong. If there
wasn't the precedent of the modified rectangular tiles/plates categories
already existing, and the modifieds were in with the regulars, then there would
be no justification for my proposal. But rectangular is split into modified and
regular, so there's no good reason round shouldn't be as well. It makes
browsing the catalog much more user friendly when things are organized intuitively
and consistently.
And Lego is making new parts all the time, so these sparse categories might get
populated soon enough.
This is the kind of info I was looking for, and it's interesting! Looks like
Use/Function carries more weight than Shape, which goes against my opinion that
jumpers should move to Tile, Modified. I admit jumpers are used far more as plates
than as tiles, so this hierarchy technically wins. But I'm not fully convinced;
now I think it's more of a gray area, as intuitively they still are tiles
with studs on them more than anything else. One could say they are modified tiles
I mean look at that one! The hierarchy really should make an exception and call
them tiles. Plus, there are already plenty of modified tiles that aren't
actually used as tiles (but are still definitely modified tiles):
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This whole topic has been debated and debated and debated since I joined BrickLink
in 2009, and I don't think it is ever going to be solved until a tag system
is put in place to allow parts to be discoverable by more ways than just a flat
category hierarchy and text search. The forced catalog hierarchy makes decisions
tough for many parts and thoughts about what to do with those run the entire
gamut of opinions. I would like to say there was any positive news in this area,
but there just isn't. The things you are discussing are going to remain the
way they are for the foreseeable future until the site can dedicate any sort
of development time to actually improving the main catalog functionality. So
far, that has not happened, and the catalog admin teams needs and wants are continually
put on hold (kind of like seller tools).
Because we cannot do anything at this time, I have moved this thread to the Catalog
topic instead of Catalog Requests.
Cheers,
Randy
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | jennnifer | | Posted: | Feb 25, 2024 17:23 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, StarBrick writes:
I said SPLIT a category, not create one.
~Jen
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The distinctive qualites do.
But well, I'm no catalog admin so why bother
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | Feb 25, 2024 17:30 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 50 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, StarBrick writes:
| | In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
| |
You would like them to split a category with just 24 items in it? Is this really
a problem?
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That's not a valid argument as there are multiple categories with even less
item
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Frankly, on eBay there are less Category problems.
I'd go there.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | infinibrix | | Posted: | Feb 27, 2024 05:30 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, 1001bricks writes:
| | In Catalog, StarBrick writes:
| | In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
| |
You would like them to split a category with just 24 items in it? Is this really
a problem?
|
That's not a valid argument as there are multiple categories with even less
item
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Frankly, on eBay there are less Category problems.
I'd go there.
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If only that were true….
I’ve been unsuccessfully battling with ebay to get their Lego category problems
resolved for near on 2 years. I appreciate it’s a bit of an unrelated topic here
but since you bring it up it may be interesting for you and others to know that
despite them only having 5 categories under Lego which includes:-
Parts
Sets
Minifigures
Instuctions
Storage
They do not always work as intended. For instance if you do a simple Lego search
on ebay it’s supposed to do a generic search across the whole site with the above
categories only in place to allow buyers to narrow down their search but there
are two major issues….
A) When you search for certain keywords alongside the word Lego sometimes ebay
mistakenly forces a search within only one of these categories even though the
buyer did not specify to only look within one of these categories (Keep in mind
that the buyer will not find any matches outside of this category and is unlikely
to notice that their search has been narrowed down to only looking within one
category instead of across the whole site)
B) Even worse still sometimes unbeknown to the buyer, ebay narrows down its search
within the wrong category and only offers results from here!
For example if you do a simple generic search for some parts such as ‘Lego Hair’
or ‘Lego Helmet’ notice on the left hand side the category ‘Complete Sets and
Packs’ is highlighted meaning if you list your hair or helmets under the CORRECT
category of ‘Bricks, Pieces & Parts’ your items will never be found when the
buyer does these generic searches! On the same token if you move your parts to
the incorrect sets category to compensate for this ebay glitch then you also
risk your items not being found if a buyer specifically chooses to narrow down
their search to only search within parts category. It really is a mess!
Fortunately many other part searches I’ve checked are handled correctly though
I’ve barely tested a fraction on all the Lego keyword searches to fully know
exactly the extent of the problem (I sell a lot minifig parts and so have only
really tested many of those that affect me?)
The correct way ebay is supposed to handle key word searches is with the example
search for ‘Lego Swords’ where you will notice it hasn’t forced a sub category
search unless/until buyer chooses to use sub category to narrow down their search!
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | infinibrix | | Posted: | Feb 27, 2024 05:42 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 56 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, infinibrix writes:
| | In Catalog, 1001bricks writes:
| | In Catalog, StarBrick writes:
| | In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
| |
You would like them to split a category with just 24 items in it? Is this really
a problem?
|
That's not a valid argument as there are multiple categories with even less
item
|
Frankly, on eBay there are less Category problems.
I'd go there.
|
If only that were true….
I’ve been unsuccessfully battling with ebay to get their Lego category problems
resolved for near on 2 years. I appreciate it’s a bit of an unrelated topic here
but since you bring it up it may be interesting for you and others to know that
despite them only having 5 categories under Lego which includes:-
Parts
Sets
Minifigures
Instuctions
Storage
They do not always work as intended. For instance if you do a simple Lego search
on ebay it’s supposed to do a generic search across the whole site with the above
categories only in place to allow buyers to narrow down their search but there
are two major issues….
A) When you search for certain keywords alongside the word Lego sometimes ebay
mistakenly forces a search within only one of these categories even though the
buyer did not specify to only look within one of these categories (Keep in mind
that the buyer will not find any matches outside of this category and is unlikely
to notice that their search has been narrowed down to only looking within one
category instead of across the whole site)
B) Even worse still sometimes unbeknown to the buyer, ebay narrows down its search
within the wrong category and only offers results from here!
For example if you do a simple generic search for some parts such as ‘Lego Hair’
or ‘Lego Helmet’ notice on the left hand side the category ‘Complete Sets and
Packs’ is highlighted meaning if you list your hair or helmets under the CORRECT
category of ‘Bricks, Pieces & Parts’ your items will never be found when the
buyer does these generic searches! On the same token if you move your parts to
the incorrect sets category to compensate for this ebay glitch then you also
risk your items not being found if a buyer specifically chooses to narrow down
their search to only search within parts category. It really is a mess!
Fortunately many other part searches I’ve checked are handled correctly though
I’ve barely tested a fraction on all the Lego keyword searches to fully know
exactly the extent of the problem (I sell a lot minifig parts and so have only
really tested many of those that affect me?)
The correct way ebay is supposed to handle key word searches is with the example
search for ‘Lego Swords’ where you will notice it hasn’t forced a sub category
search unless/until buyer chooses to use sub category to narrow down their search!
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I should just point out that I don't know whether this specific issue is
only isolated to ebay.co.uk but a search for 'Lego hair' on ebay.com
handles the search correctly!
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| | | | | | | Author: | StormChaser | | Posted: | Feb 26, 2024 22:40 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 64 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
The clickable links for basic part categories on that page still go directly
to images stored in my personal BL profile. That's how far the site has
progressed (rather, failed to progress) in the three years since they got rid
of me.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Nubs_Select | | Posted: | Feb 26, 2024 23:29 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
| | In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
The clickable links for basic part categories on that page still go directly
to images stored in my personal BL profile. That's how far the site has
progressed (rather, failed to progress) in the three years since they got rid
of me.
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Crazy 💀
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| | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Feb 26, 2024 02:42 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| Be careful if you are calling for consistency. One way of having consistency
is to do what LEGO does and have a single combined category for plates and tiles,
just one for minifig parts, and so on. It is both consistent in that there is
no ambiguity where a particular part goes and it matches the parent company's
labelling.
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| | | | | Author: | StormChaser | | Posted: | Feb 26, 2024 22:24 | | Subject: | Re: + Tile/Plate, Round, Modified & ... Jumpers? | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, wyvern writes:
| | So why aren't these round tiles (among others) considered
modified as well?
|
Current and past catalog experts have had innovative ideas. Unfortunately, innovation
is not prioritized at BrickLink for a number of reasons which I prefer not to
discuss in this response.
To answer your point above, there is no valid reason why a Tile, Round, Modified
category could not or should not exist. And the same goes for other categories
you suggest.
| | I also wonder what the catalog's logic is for categorizing jumpers.
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There is none. But I can say what the logic should be. It's actually incredibly
simple if you think about it at the simplest level. A plate has a stud:
A tile does not have a stud:
Therefore, the basic categorization logic for jumpers or any other contentious
part should be:
A plate has one or more studs, while a tile has no studs.
I believe this answers your remaining points about how parts should be categorized.
| | Anyway, to sum it up, I think the categorization logic needs better consistency.
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Absolutely. The problem is that innovators do not thrive on BrickLink.
Most people (including yourself) want consistency. This is absolutely achievable
because it's not that difficult, but consistency will likely never happen
on BrickLink.
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