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| | | Author: | cosmicray  | | Posted: | Aug 18, 2021 11:15 | | Subject: | Addresses | | Viewed: | 149 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | | Status: | Open | | Vote: | [Yes|No] | |
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| Most of the problems I have had with BrickLink over the past couple of years,
are directly related to the lack of proper address reporting. This is a suggestion
to hopefully address the problem.
BrickLink only presents one address with each order. Customers apparently have
some ability to flex that address to whatever they want it to say. That has caused
problems with certain customers.
Every order should have three addresses, but they will likely be the same address
for the vast majority of orders.
The first address should be the address of the customer placing the order (i.e.
the entity making payment).
The second address should be the address the order is to be shipped to.
The third address is the final destination address for the order shipment (i.e.
the end customer).
If a customer is ordering for their own consumption, it is likely that all three
will be the same.
If someone is ordering for their own consumption, from another country and using
a freight forwarder, the first and third will be the same, but the second will
be the address of the freight forwarder.
If a drop shipper is ordering for drop shipment to their customer, the first
would reflect the drop shipper, and the third is the final end customer. The
second might be a freight forwader (for international) or the final end customer
(for domestic). In this case, the seller would see two or three different addresses,
but would have full clarity about who is performing what part of the transaction.
Part of the reason for this need, is that freight forwarders may be interfering
with BrickLink's legal need to collect sales tax and VAT. It is also needed
when a dispute arises, and someone is making a false claim against the seller.
It is important to know who all the parties in the transaction are, when sorting
out the dispute.
Anyone entering false information in any of the three addresses, should be subject
to BrickLink member sanctions.
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| | | | | Author: | Vosblokjes | | Posted: | Aug 19, 2021 09:23 | | Subject: | Re: Addresses | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
| | Most of the problems I have had with BrickLink over the past couple of years,
are directly related to the lack of proper address reporting. This is a suggestion
to hopefully address the problem.
BrickLink only presents one address with each order. Customers apparently have
some ability to flex that address to whatever they want it to say. That has caused
problems with certain customers.
Every order should have three addresses, but they will likely be the same address
for the vast majority of orders.
The first address should be the address of the customer placing the order (i.e.
the entity making payment).
The second address should be the address the order is to be shipped to.
The third address is the final destination address for the order shipment (i.e.
the end customer).
If a customer is ordering for their own consumption, it is likely that all three
will be the same.
If someone is ordering for their own consumption, from another country and using
a freight forwarder, the first and third will be the same, but the second will
be the address of the freight forwarder.
If a drop shipper is ordering for drop shipment to their customer, the first
would reflect the drop shipper, and the third is the final end customer. The
second might be a freight forwader (for international) or the final end customer
(for domestic). In this case, the seller would see two or three different addresses,
but would have full clarity about who is performing what part of the transaction.
Part of the reason for this need, is that freight forwarders may be interfering
with BrickLink's legal need to collect sales tax and VAT. It is also needed
when a dispute arises, and someone is making a false claim against the seller.
It is important to know who all the parties in the transaction are, when sorting
out the dispute.
Anyone entering false information in any of the three addresses, should be subject
to BrickLink member sanctions.
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So with every sale the buyer should fill in 3 addresses?
Or do it once and then on every order should the buyer confirm those addresses?
And make adjustments when needed.
Isn't that overkill for most of the BL orders?
I don't know how much of these kind of orders there are, but can't imagine
there are a lot.
So for only a tiny amount of orders, a lot of buyers will get nagged (with every
order).
I don't think that is wise to do.
And as far as PP protection goes, I don't think this will help.
Given your posts lately I think I understand why you want this, but am really
unsure on how many occasions there will be need for such drastic meassures.
And with TAX/VAT there is no issue. You ship to the given address, if there is
no TAX to be paid, just great. The forwarder will do the TAX/VAT thing if needed
for the shipping to the final destination. That is not something you or BL is
involved in.
However, what I think would be good, is that if a buyer is going against a sellers
terms, there should be an option to cancel the order where no feedback (either
seller nor buyer) can be given.
This should not be automated, but always be checked by BL.
But please don't bother all buyers, when there are only a few that would
'need' this to do.
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| | | | | | | Author: | peregrinator | | Posted: | Aug 19, 2021 09:44 | | Subject: | Re: Addresses | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| Does BL have the resources to arbitrate all the times when a seller cancels an
order because the buyer didn't adhere to terms? I'm thinking that sellers
will choose this option whenever cancelling orders so that they can avoid negative
feedback, or put absurd clauses into their terms so they always have the option
of cancelling.
In Suggestions, BasKrie writes:
| | However, what I think would be good, is that if a buyer is going against a sellers
terms, there should be an option to cancel the order where no feedback (either
seller nor buyer) can be given.
This should not be automated, but always be checked by BL.
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| | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Aug 19, 2021 10:57 | | Subject: | Re: Addresses | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, BasKrie writes:
| | So with every sale the buyer should fill in 3 addresses?
Or do it once and then on every order should the buyer confirm those addresses?
And make adjustments when needed.
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I wasn't trying to specify implementation, only the need to have three possible
addresses on an order. In theory, for the vast majority where all three are identical,
I can see one address being entered, and then ticking the checkbox for same as
above. I see no need to enter the same information three times, but I do see
the need to enter the information when it isn't identical.
| | And with TAX/VAT there is no issue. You ship to the given address, if there is
no TAX to be paid, just great. The forwarder will do the TAX/VAT thing if needed
for the shipping to the final destination. That is not something you or BL is
involved in.
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So, without digging too deeply, one of the recent orders I had to refuse, had
an IP address that was not outside the USA. Freight forwarders are typically
being used for moving freight out of the USA. Due to software such as CG-NAT,
many IP addresses can be far away from where the user actually is located. My
own connections variably return FL or TX. While I am reasonably certain that
the IP address was with a large US provider, I am less certain about the location
it implied. There was a suggestion, but no certainty, that the IP address was
part of a block allocated to an area in my own state ... FL. If we take that
at face value, it makes me wonder about why someone in my own state would be
sending a package thru a freight forwarder all the way over in zone 8.
I do not believe the freight forwarders are assuming any responsibility for sales
tax collection within the USA, and may well have no responsibility for putting
a value on customs forms other than what their customer tells them to put on
it. New style freight forwarders (e.g. ShipStation) may well have access to data
concerning VAT value, whereas old style freight forwarders do not.
Nita Rae
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Vosblokjes | | Posted: | Aug 19, 2021 13:59 | | Subject: | Re: Addresses | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
| | In Suggestions, BasKrie writes:
| | So with every sale the buyer should fill in 3 addresses?
Or do it once and then on every order should the buyer confirm those addresses?
And make adjustments when needed.
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Even without specifying anything, somewhere every buyer would have to state that
the 3 options are all the same, maybe on every order they make.
I don't think it will help anything if the 3 options are standard filled
in with the same.
| | I wasn't trying to specify implementation, only the need to have three possible
addresses on an order. In theory, for the vast majority where all three are identical,
I can see one address being entered, and then ticking the checkbox for same as
above. I see no need to enter the same information three times, but I do see
the need to enter the information when it isn't identical.
| | And with TAX/VAT there is no issue. You ship to the given address, if there is
no TAX to be paid, just great. The forwarder will do the TAX/VAT thing if needed
for the shipping to the final destination. That is not something you or BL is
involved in.
|
So, without digging too deeply, one of the recent orders I had to refuse, had
an IP address that was not outside the USA. Freight forwarders are typically
being used for moving freight out of the USA. Due to software such as CG-NAT,
many IP addresses can be far away from where the user actually is located. My
own connections variably return FL or TX. While I am reasonably certain that
the IP address was with a large US provider, I am less certain about the location
it implied. There was a suggestion, but no certainty, that the IP address was
part of a block allocated to an area in my own state ... FL. If we take that
at face value, it makes me wonder about why someone in my own state would be
sending a package thru a freight forwarder all the way over in zone 8.
I do not believe the freight forwarders are assuming any responsibility for sales
tax collection within the USA, and may well have no responsibility for putting
a value on customs forms other than what their customer tells them to put on
it. New style freight forwarders (e.g. ShipStation) may well have access to data
concerning VAT value, whereas old style freight forwarders do not.
Nita Rae
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Maybe the receiving country does not calculate VAT or TAX on incoming shipments.
And if they do, customs would not believe that a very large box containing a
variety of toys would be free of charge.
And even then, that is something between the forwarder, the buyer and the government
of the country it is all shipped to. So still not something you would have to
concern yourself with. As long as TAX is paid in case it is needed by US law,
BL and you are doing a legitimate sale.
So in the end. The problem you have yourself with the forwarder is that you probably
loose PP protection because there will, almost never, be proof of delivery in
these cases.
Looking at the forum, not every seller thinks that's a risk an are happy
to sell via a forwarder (if they will notice this anyway)
Hence my suggestion to have an option to cancel an order (without any penalty)
in such cases.
Or try to take it to PP to have them lift buyer protection in such cases.
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| | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Aug 19, 2021 11:29 | | Subject: | Re: Addresses | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, BasKrie writes:
I want to make one point very very clear ... the address of the freight forwarder
should not be the determining factor concerning sales tax and/or VAT.
The address of the final destination customer should be.
That practically all the freight forwarders are located in states with no sales
& use tax, suggests they are actively (or passively, you decide) selling their
services as a way to avoid sales tax. Since the seller is not providing customs
forms, it is between the original buyer (who initiates the freight forwarding
service) and the freight forwarding service what ends up on any customs forms.
The current setup, with BL only having a single order address, allows this to
happen.
Nita Rae
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | peregrinator | | Posted: | Aug 19, 2021 12:20 | | Subject: | Re: Addresses | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
| | In Suggestions, BasKrie writes:
I want to make one point very very clear ... the address of the freight forwarder
should not be the determining factor concerning sales tax and/or VAT.
The address of the final destination customer should be.
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As long as the seller has done everything necessary to meet the requirements
of the law on his or her end, and same for the online marketplace (in this case
BrickLink), why should we be concerned with whether the freight forwarder or
final destination customer are meeting their obligations? I don't think it's
really our responsibility.
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| | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Aug 26, 2021 07:03 | | Subject: | Re: Addresses | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
| | Most of the problems I have had with BrickLink over the past couple of years,
are directly related to the lack of proper address reporting. This is a suggestion
to hopefully address the problem.
|
Concerning Addresses ...
One member asked the question if my original suggestion would require everyone
to enter the same information multiple times, to which I responded no. But that
question has nagged at me, and I have a much cleaner solution.
It is not that all orders need three different addresses, it is that certain
orders have a wide variety of addressing needs, and those needs are currently
not being met. The address field is being used for multiple different reasons,
and those reasons can end up conflicting with one another.
First we need to understand those reasons, which will make the solution cleaner.
We need an address to authorize payment.
We need an address to commence shipment.
We need an address to determine taxation/duties.
We need an address to deliver the parcel to.
We need an address where the parcel will 'come to rest'.
We need the actual address of the end recipient.
All of those addresses could be different, and in some situations certain combinations
of those will be identical. The exact situation where they are identical will
vary depending on the seller's location, the customer's location, any
intermediaries involved in delivery, and other parties involved (e.g. dropshippers,
reshippers, freight forwarders, etc).
Every order on BrickLink will result in one or more parcels being shipped. To
the best of my knowledge, there are no digital content goods being sold here,
everything is physical goods.
The solution is that every member, who can place an order, needs to have the
ability to maintain multiple addresses, and to tag each of those addresses with
one or more attributes, depending on how each address is being used. In the most
simple case, a member would have their home address, and it would be tagged for
all uses.
A concept that is introduced here is the 'come to rest' address. This
is the point where the package moves no farther, until the recipient collects
it. For their home address, this could be their mail box, front porch, etc. This
disregards packages where the customer had to make a trip to the post office,
because the carrier was unable to leave it. The 'come to rest' address
is important because that is (in most cases) where sales tax (or duty) should
be calculated upon.
Example 1: A member in Europe orders a set from a seller in Kentucky, via freight
forwarder in Delaware. The come to rest address in in Europe, not in Delaware,
even tho the package might be scanned as Delivered in Delaware. From PayPal's
perspective, the seller is still responsible until the package reaches the come
to rest address.
Example 2: A member in BC Canada orders parts from a seller in Georgia. The buyer
has a PO Box address in Washington, just across the border. The 'come to
rest' address is the PO Box in Washington, which is also the address for
calculating sales tax. Any border crossing duties is up to the customer, when
they carry it across the border.
Example 4: A member in a very small rural town in Florida orders a set from another
seller in Florida. The member placing the order does not get street delivery
of mail in that small rural community, instead USPS gives them a free PO Box.
If the seller is shipping via USPS, the orders goes to the PO Box, but if the
sellers ships via FedEx Ground, then the order goes to the recipient's actual
street address.
Example 5: A member in Hong Kong orders from a seller in South Carolina, via
freight forwarder in Oregon. The seller in SC will be shipping to the freight
forwarder, who will then consolidate packages together and send them along to
the destination. At the destination end, the parcel might be delivered to the
end recipient (at their physical address) or it might be held for collection
at the fright forwarder's terminal. A variant on this example involves a
reseller/dropshipper in HK, acting as the facilitator for a buyer in China.
The above five examples are meant to illustrate the complexities of various order
address combinations. All of those I have already encountered, and all of those
were trying to be accomplished using a single address field.
Nita Rae
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USA, Florida
Netherlands, Drenthe
