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| | | Author: | yoavheskia  | | Posted: | Oct 4, 2020 07:47 | | Subject: | Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 138 times | | Topic: | Colors | | Status: | Open | |
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| Hi
I want to understand the logic behind the color names.
Why medium lavender is not dark lavender?
Medium suppose to be lighter than the main color, isn't it?
Like medium green, medium orange, medium blue and medium brown.
The medium lavender is much darker than lavender, so the name for it should be
dark lavender.
What do you think?
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| | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Oct 4, 2020 10:00 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, yoavheskia writes:
| | Hi
I want to understand the logic behind the color names.
Why medium lavender is not dark lavender?
Medium suppose to be lighter than the main color, isn't it?
Like medium green, medium orange, medium blue and medium brown.
The medium lavender is much darker than lavender, so the name for it should be
dark lavender.
What do you think?
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That's what I noticed as well.
But they renamed "medium dark flesh/nougat" to "medium nougat", even though that
one too is slightly darker than the regular "flesh/nougat". So yeah, the word
"medium" doesn't seem to have a clear meaning, it just seems to mean "different"..
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| | | | | Author: | JulieK | | Posted: | Oct 4, 2020 12:14 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, yoavheskia writes:
| | Hi
I want to understand the logic behind the color names.
Why medium lavender is not dark lavender?
Medium suppose to be lighter than the main color, isn't it?
Like medium green, medium orange, medium blue and medium brown.
The medium lavender is much darker than lavender, so the name for it should be
dark lavender.
What do you think?
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I agree and have notes around my bins to remind me of which color is which.
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| | | | | Author: | WoutR | | Posted: | Oct 4, 2020 13:17 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, yoavheskia writes:
| | Hi
I want to understand the logic behind the color names.
Why medium lavender is not dark lavender?
Medium suppose to be lighter than the main color, isn't it?
Like medium green, medium orange, medium blue and medium brown.
The medium lavender is much darker than lavender, so the name for it should be
dark lavender.
What do you think?
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In this case, the original LEGO names were used on BrickLink.
The names are not perfect, but it is less confusing than making up our own names.
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| | | | | Author: | crazylegoman | | Posted: | Oct 4, 2020 14:27 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| | Or just plain "Lavender" |
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| | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Oct 4, 2020 14:37 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, crazylegoman writes:
And then what becomes of the already existing Lavender?
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | dcarmine | | Posted: | Oct 4, 2020 14:54 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Colors, crazylegoman writes:
And then what becomes of the already existing Lavender?
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It should be medium lavender since it is lighter than lavender.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Oct 4, 2020 15:49 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, dcarmine writes:
| | In Colors, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Colors, crazylegoman writes:
And then what becomes of the already existing Lavender?
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It should be medium lavender since it is lighter than lavender.
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But then BL and LEGO names would be swapped. I’m not for following LEGO names
but let’s try not to add confusion 
And “common” lavender (colour and flower) isn’t the shade of Medium Lavender.
Anyway, the problem is that you all want to see a clear and simple gradation
between Earth X, Dark X, X, Medium X, Bright X, and Light X (and other qualificatives
like Flame X).
It’s not the case.
First, TLG and language consistency: haha.
Then, from what I can see, it more or less works like this (there are exceptions):
— Earth X, Dark X, Medium X, Light X: a gradation of luminance.
Earth around 20-30%, Dark around 30-40%, Medium around 40-60%, Light around
70-80%
— Bright X and Flame X are more about saturation.
Some colours are simpler to fit into that system than others: “common” blue,
for instance, is a colour with a medium luminance, you can then have Earth/Dark,
Medium, Light Blues around the “plain” Blue, which is saturated enough to be
called Bright Blue.
Other colours don’t fit easily: “common” lavender is already a light / pastel
colour. That means its luminance is very high (90%). So there’s no Light Lavender
(Lavender is already lighter than the Light range for luminance) and a Medium
Lavender is necessarily darker (57% luminance).
To fit the system / gradation, there should be a colour X that could be Light-ed
to become Light X and Dark-ened to become Dark X and “averaged” to become Medium
X. There’s no common name for such a colour so that Lavender would be Light
X.
And, anyway, people would say “It’s not Light X, it’s Lavender!”
Now, a little note to blow all that up: Medium Lavender’s hue is 279°, Lavender’s
is 55°. They are not the same colour at all!
(I’m no colour specialist, just tinkering with HSL values, which are hard values,
not hampered with human languages considerations.)
I think I’ll investigate the other CIE models, like CIECAM02 (Colour Appearance
Model), supposed to be better at quantifying human perception.)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Oct 5, 2020 07:42 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 29 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, SylvainLS writes:
| | […]
I think I’ll investigate the other CIE models, like CIECAM02 (Colour Appearance
Model), supposed to be better at quantifying human perception.)
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So, here’s a 3D scatter plot in the J*a*b colour space (a colour space more representative
of human perception: the closer the colours in the space, the closer they are
to us).
N = no adjectives
E = Earth
D = Dark
M = Medium
B = Bright
L = Light
F = Flame
And it’s a mess 
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Oct 5, 2020 08:09 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 29 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Colors, SylvainLS writes:
| | […]
I think I’ll investigate the other CIE models, like CIECAM02 (Colour Appearance
Model), supposed to be better at quantifying human perception.)
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So, here’s a 3D scatter plot in the J*a*b colour space (a colour space more representative
of human perception: the closer the colours in the space, the closer they are
to us).
N = no adjectives
E = Earth
D = Dark
M = Medium
B = Bright
L = Light
F = Flame
And it’s a mess
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Okay, not exactly a mess:
J (vertical coordinate on the picture) is a measure of perceived lightness.
And we actually find some sort of order for Earth, Dark, Medium, and Light.
Bright colours are on the periphery, where “purer” colours are (horizontal axes
a and b are resp. red-green (how far it’s from pure yellow) and yellow-blue (how
far it’s from pure red and pure green)).
Black is the lone “N” at the very bottom: very dark, and neither red nor green
nor yellow nor blue (so centred).
Thing is, that plot only tells how the adjectives correlate with the colours’
positions (“most of the Dark colours are in this zone”), it doesn’t say how Dark
X is placed relatively to X or Medium X.
I’d need to make plots for each colour group… maybe next break.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 3001Bricks | | Posted: | Oct 5, 2020 08:35 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Colors, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Colors, SylvainLS writes:
| | […]
I think I’ll investigate the other CIE models, like CIECAM02 (Colour Appearance
Model), supposed to be better at quantifying human perception.)
|
So, here’s a 3D scatter plot in the J*a*b colour space (a colour space more representative
of human perception: the closer the colours in the space, the closer they are
to us).
N = no adjectives
E = Earth
D = Dark
M = Medium
B = Bright
L = Light
F = Flame
And it’s a mess
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Okay, not exactly a mess:
J (vertical coordinate on the picture) is a measure of perceived lightness.
And we actually find some sort of order for Earth, Dark, Medium, and Light.
Bright colours are on the periphery, where “purer” colours are (horizontal axes
a and b are resp. red-green (how far it’s from pure yellow) and yellow-blue (how
far it’s from pure red and pure green)).
Black is the lone “N” at the very bottom: very dark, and neither red nor green
nor yellow nor blue (so centred).
Thing is, that plot only tells how the adjectives correlate with the colours’
positions (“most of the Dark colours are in this zone”), it doesn’t say how Dark
X is placed relatively to X or Medium X.
I’d need to make plots for each colour group… maybe next break.
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You kinda would have to plot them in a 3d sphere, as color is not a linear or
2d movement, but more a 3d position. Normally the lightness is the 'third
d', but I see you incorporated that.
I've thought about this before and if we really have a full go at it, then
we should drop the 'no adjectives' al together, and name all colors with
adjectives from light to dark (light - medium light - medium - medium dark -
dark). The no adjective color creates this problem as that is not a defined position
on the imaginary scale.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Oct 5, 2020 09:17 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, Gmid writes:
| | […]
You kinda would have to plot them in a 3d sphere, as color is not a linear or
2d movement, but more a 3d position. Normally the lightness is the 'third
d', but I see you incorporated that.
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They are plotted in a 3D space: Jab (which is a perceived Lab).
It’s just that pictures that can be posted here are 2D only
That’s why I added comments after looking at the plot under different angles.
| | I've thought about this before and if we really have a full go at it, then
we should drop the 'no adjectives' al together, and name all colors with
adjectives from light to dark (light - medium light - medium - medium dark -
dark). The no adjective color creates this problem as that is not a defined position
on the imaginary scale.
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Well, first, some colours are inherently already light (or dark). E.g. Lime
is a light colour (high J component). Light Lime is very light. I don’t know
what name would be the matching “centred” colour but, even you find it (say,
‘G’) and rename Lime as Light G and Light Lime as Very Light G, people will see
Light G and say “eh, why isn’t this called ‘Lime’?”
Or if you say “Lime is the base colour,” you’d have people asking why Medium
Lime is lighter than Light This or Light That….
Anyway, here, it was just an exercise on LEGO official names, to get a hint on
some sort of objective rule in TLG’s use of the adjectives.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | WoutR | | Posted: | Oct 5, 2020 09:41 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Colors, Gmid writes:
| | […]
You kinda would have to plot them in a 3d sphere, as color is not a linear or
2d movement, but more a 3d position. Normally the lightness is the 'third
d', but I see you incorporated that.
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They are plotted in a 3D space: Jab (which is a perceived Lab).
It’s just that pictures that can be posted here are 2D only
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I have been thinking about building something showing the colors in that 3D space,
but I gave up because I could not think of an elegant way to do it.
| | That’s why I added comments after looking at the plot under different angles.
| | I've thought about this before and if we really have a full go at it, then
we should drop the 'no adjectives' al together, and name all colors with
adjectives from light to dark (light - medium light - medium - medium dark -
dark). The no adjective color creates this problem as that is not a defined position
on the imaginary scale.
|
Well, first, some colours are inherently already light (or dark). E.g. Lime
is a light colour (high J component). Light Lime is very light. I don’t know
what name would be the matching “centred” colour but, even you find it (say,
‘G’) and rename Lime as Light G and Light Lime as Very Light G, people will see
Light G and say “eh, why isn’t this called ‘Lime’?”
Or if you say “Lime is the base colour,” you’d have people asking why Medium
Lime is lighter than Light This or Light That….
Anyway, here, it was just an exercise on LEGO official names, to get a hint on
some sort of objective rule in TLG’s use of the adjectives.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Oct 5, 2020 10:12 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, WoutR writes:
| | In Colors, SylvainLS writes:
[…]
| | They are plotted in a 3D space: Jab (which is a perceived Lab).
It’s just that pictures that can be posted here are 2D only
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I have been thinking about building something showing the colors in that 3D space,
but I gave up because I could not think of an elegant way to do it.
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I calculated the Jab components from Pikachu’s RGB values and then I’m using
Gnuplot.
But you really need to have the 3D to see anything.
I once made an LDD model in the HSL space and didn’t find it satisfying. I need
to make one for Jab….
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Oct 5, 2020 10:44 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 26 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, SylvainLS writes:
| | […]
I once made an LDD model in the HSL space and didn’t find it satisfying. I need
to make one for Jab….
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Quick test in LDraw. With HSL, the colours were not spread enough, with Jab,
they better fill the space.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | crazylegoman | | Posted: | Oct 4, 2020 21:42 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 29 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Colors, crazylegoman writes:
And then what becomes of the already existing Lavender?
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D'OH! For some reason I was thinking that BL called the lighter shade Light
Lavender and the darker one Medium Lavender. I forgot we already have one called
just "Lavender."
David
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| | | | | Author: | randyf | | Posted: | Oct 4, 2020 16:05 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, yoavheskia writes:
| | Hi
I want to understand the logic behind the color names.
Why medium lavender is not dark lavender?
Medium suppose to be lighter than the main color, isn't it?
Like medium green, medium orange, medium blue and medium brown.
The medium lavender is much darker than lavender, so the name for it should be
dark lavender.
What do you think?
|
When official color names were not known, the fan community came up with their
own names for colors. Most of the color names on BrickLink were created by the
fan community and had a somewhat coherent logic to them. At a certain point in
time, the official color names became known, but the fan community were already
set in their ways, so the made up names for the colors stuck ("Tan" instead of
"Brick Yellow", "Magenta" instead of "Bright Reddish Violet", etc.). However,
as LEGO introduced new colors to their color palette *after* the official color
names were known, the fan community pretty much adopted the official color names
for these new colors right away. This is what happened with "Medium Lavender"
and "Lavender", "Dark Azure" and "Medium Azure", "Olive Green", etc. Those are
the official color names (more or less) given to the colors by LEGO, they were
known as soon as they were introduced, and the community adopted them right away.
So, yes, there is inconsistency in the logic of the color names, but it is due
to the history of the fan community's knowledge of the color names.
One solution would be to switch over the entire color palette naming scheme to
LEGO's official color names. Although tempting at first, the official color
names are not any more logical than what you are currently referring to (for
example, BrickLink has "Bright Green", "Green", and "Dark Green", whereas LEGO
has "Bright Green", "Dark Green", and "Earth Green", respectively). In fact,
I find many of the official color names unintuitive and confusing (for example,
LEGO's official color name for BrickLink "Brown" is "Earth Orange"), and
I believe that many others would feel the same.
Another solution is to completely ditch all of LEGO's official color names,
and have all fan-community-generated names. I think this approach is much easier
to fathom, and it would allow the community to more logically name "Medium Lavender"
and "Lavender". After all, BrickLink already renamed the new color "Spring Yellowish
Green" to just "Yellowish Green" and the other new color "Vibrant Coral" to just
"Coral".
In conclusion, I think that BrickLink could effectively rename these two colors
that you bring up and make it easier for the fan community since it has been
that way almost exclusively over the history of the hobby.
Cheers,
Randy
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| | | | | | | Author: | yoavheskia | | Posted: | Oct 5, 2020 02:25 | | Subject: | Re: Medium Lavender should be "Dark Lavender"? | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Colors | |
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| In Colors, randyf writes:
| | In conclusion, I think that BrickLink could effectively rename these two colors
that you bring up and make it easier for the fan community since it has been
that way almost exclusively over the history of the hobby.
Cheers,
Randy
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Thank you very much for your reply. Now I understand the logic much better!
Yoav
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Netherlands, Utrecht
USA, Illinois
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