Discussion Forum: Thread 272594

 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 13:29
 Subject: Catalog Project - Moving Things
 Viewed: 390 times
 Topic: Catalog
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
Okay, I won't promise anything will happen.

But this is the plan:

1. I'm opening discussion right now, in this thread, on changes in
item type and and category for any items wrongly categorized. I expect discussion
will probably focus on parts and last around two weeks.

2. I'll post all changes deemed worth making on this page:
https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2487

3. The catalog team will discuss internally during the month of September.
This will give everyone time to prepare for item movements. I'll post public
updates/reminders occasionally during August and September.

4. The actual changes will be made on October 1st, 2020. A record of
the changes will be retained for reference purposes for two years on the page
linked to above.

I know some of you are excited about this. It's the first time BrickLink
has been widely open to correcting some longstanding categorization issues.
I'm excited, too. I will fully read and carefully consider every post made
in this thread. To help me out, please:

1. Snip replies (remove extraneous content before replying).
2. Stay on point (don't post digressions).
3. Keep everything in this one thread.
4. Don't expect miracles. Some ideas may have to be added to the
roadmap as separate projects.
5. Try to limit complaints. Or, if you believe everything is already
properly categorized and don't like change, complain loudly and often. Site
management will be watching.

Thanks to everyone for the input you're about to provide. I don't know
how this will go, but I expect it to be interesting.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 13:31
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
 Viewed: 78 times
 Topic: Catalog
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  Regarding: https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1200979

Hello all!

I have spent a fair bit of time going over the currently published category definitions
in order to clarify the text and create consistency within the contents of each
category. This is just the start, and I welcome help in refining or trouble-shooting
any new language.

I am hoping very much that this can be a free and open discussion. I am not advocating
for any particular changes, and I won’t be the person who decides what happens.
(So please don’t yell at me!) I would simply like to support the volunteer admins
work towards improving our excellent catalog.

I reviewed only some common Part categories. I have not looked far into minifigs,
Bionicle, Duplo, or technic as of yet. Where I have indicated a ‘larger discussion
needed’ I will post an individual thread later with my ideas.

Thanks,
Jen



Here is the list of categories where I see inconsistencies related to their current
definitions. I have indicated solutions when one seemed obvious to me.

-------------------------------------------------

Antenna - For items resembling masts or structures used to receive or broadcast
radio and television signals.

Issue: There are currently flags in this category

---------------------------------------------------------

Ball - For freely-rolling spherical objects without modifications.

Issue: Part x12 does not fit definition

---------------------------------------------------------

Baseplate - For flat items thinner than plates typically covered in studs and
used as bases for building large models.

Baseplate, Road - For baseplates that feature a stud-free surface intended to
be used for vehicle movement or landing.

Issue: It is difficult to determine what is ‘intended’ unless the parts are
decorated with road markings. There are also baseplates with the word ‘driveway’
in the original category.

Solution: Perhaps the categories should be more simply redefined as: Baseplate
and Baseplate, Decorated

---------------------------------------------------------

Bracket - For items that attach to a surface and allow building onto that surface
at an angle.

Issue: This definition would include Modified Bricks like 22885.

Solution: new definition that indicates the bracket extensions are the thickness
of a plate

---------------------------------------------------------

Brick, Arch – major issues here which require a larger discussion pertaining
to the difference between and arch, mudguard, and curved slope.

---------------------------------------------------------

Brick, Modified -- major issues here which require a larger discussion pertaining
to the removal of curved items from this category

---------------------------------------------------------

Brick, Round - For bricks and modified bricks with spherical sides, with or without
attachments.

Issue: It is not the sides being spherical that defines this category, it is
the base.

Solution: new definition:

Brick, Round – For bricks or modified bricks with a round base or a section of
a round base, with or without attachments.

---------------------------------------------------------

Cloth - For items made of woven fibers.

Issue: Both woven and knit fibers are present. Also, I believe it needs to be
distinguished from items intended for minifigs

Solution: new definition:

Cloth – For items made of woven or knit fibers and excepting those intended to
be worn by Minifigures or Mini Dolls

---------------------------------------------------------

Cone - For items with a round base that narrow to a tip.

Issue: ‘narrow to a tip’ is not accurate as this category contains both cones
and truncated cones. The sides need to be defined as flat (ie planar or not curved)
to distinguish the category from Brick, Round.

Solution: new definition:

Cone - For items with a round base with sides that taper and are not curved.

Result: part 35574 moved to Round, Brick. parts 18909, 66606 moved to Panel or
Cylinder. (Personally, I would also move the drill bits to Vehicle.)

---------------------------------------------------------

Cylinder - major issues here which require a larger discussion pertaining the
difference between Cylinder, Roof, and Panel

---------------------------------------------------------
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 13:32
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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 Topic: Catalog
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  […]
Cone - For items with a round base that narrow to a tip.

Issue: ‘narrow to a tip’ is not accurate as this category contains both cones
and truncated cones. The sides need to be defined as flat (ie planar or not curved)
to distinguish the category from Brick, Round.

Solution: new definition:

Cone - For items with a round base with sides that taper and are not curved.

“not vertically curved”
Because they are horizontally curved and that could be misunderstood (“What?
They are round but shan’t be curved?”).
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 13:32
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  […]
Cone - For items with a round base that narrow to a tip.

Issue: ‘narrow to a tip’ is not accurate as this category contains both cones
and truncated cones. The sides need to be defined as flat (ie planar or not curved)
to distinguish the category from Brick, Round.

Solution: new definition:

Cone - For items with a round base with sides that taper and are not curved.

“not vertically curved”
Because they are horizontally curved and that could be misunderstood (“What?
They are round but shan’t be curved?”).

Ah, yes, I see what you mean here. I have spent too much time teaching geometry
to my kid.

The surface of a cone actually is flat or planar. If you took apart a cone
made of paper, you would have a base shaped like a circle, and the upper surface
would unroll and lay flat, unlike the surface of anything spherical or curved
like a baseball. In the common vernacular, I can see how my definition could
be misleading. I will see if I can phrase it better.
Jen
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 13:45
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  […]
Cone - For items with a round base that narrow to a tip.

Issue: ‘narrow to a tip’ is not accurate as this category contains both cones
and truncated cones. The sides need to be defined as flat (ie planar or not curved)
to distinguish the category from Brick, Round.

Solution: new definition:

Cone - For items with a round base with sides that taper and are not curved.

“not vertically curved”
Because they are horizontally curved and that could be misunderstood (“What?
They are round but shan’t be curved?”).

How about: For items that are conical, including truncated cones.


After all, there are truncations that are vertical as well as horizontal, such
as:
 
Part No: 47543  Name: Cone Half 8 x 4 x 6
* 
47543 Cone Half 8 x 4 x 6
Parts: Cone {Dark Bluish Gray}
These do not have a round base.

And there are also inverted cones that have a circular top rather than base such
as:
 
Part No: 49309  Name: Cone 2 x 2 x 2 Inverted
* 
49309 Cone 2 x 2 x 2 Inverted
Parts: Cone {Medium Nougat}

There is also this duplo part
 
Part No: 98237  Name: Duplo Cone Tapered 3 x 3 x 3
* 
98237 Duplo Cone Tapered 3 x 3 x 3
Parts: Duplo {Dark Purple}
if they did a piece like that in regular LEGO I would hope it would go into the
cone section. If the definition rules out vertical curvature, then they would
be excluded and have to go elsewhere, or require a re-write of the definition.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 14:00
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  How about: For items that are conical, including truncated cones.


Jean tried to avoid circular definitions.
Removing a few words, yours becomes: “Cones: conical items and truncated cones.”

Othewise we could also have: “Cones: well, cones, you dummy!”
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 16:09
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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yorbrick (781)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  
  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  How about: For items that are conical, including truncated cones.


Jean tried to avoid circular definitions.
Removing a few words, yours becomes: “Cones: conical items and truncated cones.”

Othewise we could also have: “Cones: well, cones, you dummy!”

I think that is exactly the point. Where there is a simple unambiguous definition,
why not use it? It would be possible to insert a formally correct mathematical
definition of a cone but does it really help any more than saying a cone is a
cone.

It probably also needs the word smooth in there too, as there are truncated cones
that are roofs, such as
 
Part No: 35563  Name: Tower Roof 2 x 4 x 4 Half Cone Shaped with Roof Tiles
* 
35563 Tower Roof 2 x 4 x 4 Half Cone Shaped with Roof Tiles
Parts: Roof {Dark Red}

Incidentally, this part uses the base word cone to define its shape. So presumably
people need to understand the word cone here, so why not in the definitions.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 17:48
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  […]
I think that is exactly the point. Where there is a simple unambiguous definition,
why not use it?

Because the more you explain, the fewer ambiguities there are?


  It would be possible to insert a formally correct mathematical
definition of a cone but does it really help any more than saying a cone is a
cone.

Well, there are several.  What do you think of “a degenerated hyperboloid of
revolution”


  
 
Part No: 35563  Name: Tower Roof 2 x 4 x 4 Half Cone Shaped with Roof Tiles
* 
35563 Tower Roof 2 x 4 x 4 Half Cone Shaped with Roof Tiles
Parts: Roof {Dark Red}

Frankly, if this part has “Cone” in its description and isn’t in the Cone category,
then I think it’s not placed where it should.

Besides, the Roof category is useless because it’s too small, and parts in there
aren’t even “roofs”: most are cones, there’s one pyramid (which’s a cone with
a square base ), a big slope “assembly,” and crenels.
At most, the conical roofs could be in “Cone, Modified” if there were more of
them.


  Incidentally, this part uses the base word cone to define its shape. So presumably
people need to understand the word cone here, so why not in the definitions.

Many parts have their category in their name.  So, problem solved, no need to
define anything because the words are already used elsewhere?
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 18:35
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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yorbrick (781)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  
  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  How about: For items that are conical, including truncated cones.


Jean tried to avoid circular definitions.
Removing a few words, yours becomes: “Cones: conical items and truncated cones.”

Othewise we could also have: “Cones: well, cones, you dummy!”

The definition of Brick depends on the term brick.

Brick - For basic and unmodified LEGO system building bricks with one
or more top studs, plain straight sides and a hollow bottom.

Plus it relies on the terms basic and unmodified without defining them. Of course,
if you understand the context, then you know what the meaning is. But unmodified
could mean as supplied by LEGO, as it does elsewhere on BL.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 19:11
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  
  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  How about: For items that are conical, including truncated cones.


Jean tried to avoid circular definitions.
Removing a few words, yours becomes: “Cones: conical items and truncated cones.”

Othewise we could also have: “Cones: well, cones, you dummy!”

The definition of Brick depends on the term brick.

Brick - For basic and unmodified LEGO system building bricks with one
or more top studs, plain straight sides and a hollow bottom.

Plus it relies on the terms basic and unmodified without defining them. Of course,
if you understand the context, then you know what the meaning is. But unmodified
could mean as supplied by LEGO, as it does elsewhere on BL.

I didn’t say the other definitions were perfect
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 13:33
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
In Catalog, bje writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  Regarding: https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1200979

Hello all!

I have spent a fair bit of time going over the currently published category definitions
in order to clarify the text and create consistency within the contents of each
category. This is just the start, and I welcome help in refining or trouble-shooting
any new language.

I am hoping very much that this can be a free and open discussion. I am not advocating
for any particular changes, and I won’t be the person who decides what happens.
(So please don’t yell at me!) I would simply like to support the volunteer admins
work towards improving our excellent catalog.

I reviewed only some common Part categories. I have not looked far into minifigs,
Bionicle, Duplo, or technic as of yet. Where I have indicated a ‘larger discussion
needed’ I will post an individual thread later with my ideas.

Thanks,
Jen


Hi Jen

I hope you do not mind me piggybacking on your posts as you've done a better
job than me; mine was written telegram style, so I've canned them and will
add to yours and will add a few more as time allows. I'm hoping the catmins
will sort these somehow for easier reference.

Personally, I think the Duplo categories are a right royal mess as they are not
consistent with the main catalogue, but I would prefer a Duplo expert to try
and make head or tail of sorting those categories and the individual parts in
them. I'm not a Duplo expert so I'll try not to interfere with Duplo
at all.

Ta

Jean


  

Here is the list of categories where I see inconsistencies related to their current
definitions. I have indicated solutions when one seemed obvious to me.

-------------------------------------------------

Antenna - For items resembling masts or structures used to receive or broadcast
radio and television signals.

Issue: There are currently flags in this category

 
Part No: 3957pb01  Name: Antenna 1 x 4 with Flag with Blue, Red and Green Balloons Pattern (Sticker) - Set 3108
* 
3957pb01 Antenna 1 x 4 with Flag with Blue, Red and Green Balloons Pattern (Sticker) - Set 3108
Parts: Antenna {White}
 
Part No: 3957pb02  Name: Antenna 1 x 4 with Flag with Yellow, Pink and Blue Balloons Pattern (Sticker) - Set 3159
* 
3957pb02 Antenna 1 x 4 with Flag with Yellow, Pink and Blue Balloons Pattern (Sticker) - Set 3159
Parts: Antenna {Yellow}
 
Part No: 30322  Name: Antenna Whip with Flag
* 
30322 Antenna Whip with Flag
Parts: Antenna {Red}
Parts 30322pb*
(this is not a packing dimension adjustment, don't expect macro tags on everything)

Those parts should all be moved to flags, as they fit the definition of a flag:
"For cloths intended for attachment to a pole and molded flag and pole assemblies.
" the antenna performing the function of a pole. It can of course be said that
flag is incidental to the antenna part and that the antenna is the actual part
under consideration. I've tried to find fixed flag assemblies for ham radio's
and other broadcasting services, but they all appear to be used as a flag pole
once the flag is attached. In South Africa, no matter what pole you use for the
flag, it can only be hoisted in daylight hours and you must use a flag pole only
as a flag pole (the flag being this holy thing apparently). My preference would
be for the flag parts to move to flags and to keep the definition as is.

  
---------------------------------------------------------

Ball - For freely-rolling spherical objects without modifications.

Issue: Part x12 does not fit definition

 
Part No: x12  Name: Ball with Stud Attachment Stand (Finial Round, Raised - Scala Roof, Belville Bed)
* 
x12 Ball with Stud Attachment Stand (Finial Round, Raised - Scala Roof, Belville Bed)
Parts: Ball {Red}
I'm not clear on the retention of the Belville, Hero Factory, Scala, etc
specific categories for parts. The feeling I got was that these types of series
specific parts will be retained under the category name, so this part should
move to Belville or Scala.

But:
 
Part No: x45  Name: Sports Soccer Ball Plain
* 
x45 Sports Soccer Ball Plain
Parts: Sports {Orange}
x45pb*
 
Part No: 54821  Name: Bionicle Zamor Sphere (Ball)
* 
54821 Bionicle Zamor Sphere (Ball)
Parts: Bionicle {Pearl Light Gray}
54821pb*
 
Part No: bb0188  Name: Sports Ball, Magnetic, Harry Potter
* 
bb0188 Sports Ball, Magnetic, Harry Potter
Parts: Sports {Pearl Gold}
 
Part No: bb0655  Name: Electric, Infrared (IR) Electronic Ball
* 
bb0655 Electric, Infrared (IR) Electronic Ball
Parts: Electric
 
Part No: socball02  Name: Sports Promo Soccer Ball from McDonald's Sports Sets
* 
socball02 Sports Promo Soccer Ball from McDonald's Sports Sets
Parts: Sports {White}

would probably be better served under ball, except maybe for
 
Part No: x35  Name: Foam, Ball 41mm D.
* 
x35 Foam, Ball 41mm D.
Parts: Foam {Yellow}
to stay under the Foam category.

snip

More later
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 14:49
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
  In Catalog, bje writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  Antenna - For items resembling masts or structures used to receive or broadcast
radio and television signals.

Issue: There are currently flags in this category

 
Part No: 3957pb01  Name: Antenna 1 x 4 with Flag with Blue, Red and Green Balloons Pattern (Sticker) - Set 3108
* 
3957pb01 Antenna 1 x 4 with Flag with Blue, Red and Green Balloons Pattern (Sticker) - Set 3108
Parts: Antenna {White}
 
Part No: 3957pb02  Name: Antenna 1 x 4 with Flag with Yellow, Pink and Blue Balloons Pattern (Sticker) - Set 3159
* 
3957pb02 Antenna 1 x 4 with Flag with Yellow, Pink and Blue Balloons Pattern (Sticker) - Set 3159
Parts: Antenna {Yellow}
 
Part No: 30322  Name: Antenna Whip with Flag
* 
30322 Antenna Whip with Flag
Parts: Antenna {Red}
Parts 30322pb*

  
  Those parts should all be moved to flags, as they fit the definition of a flag

The first two parts are antennas with stickers attached. That's it. So
for the sake of consistency, shouldn't they be treated like any other parts
with stickers attached? For example, if a 2 x 2 slope has a sticker with a picture
of a lever, we wouldn't move the part to Lever.

In this case the stickers make physical flags, but I'm still leaning toward
the idea that parts with stickers attached should be categorized roughly similarly
(in this case it would be Antenna, Decorated if such a category existed). For
those two I would tend to believe they should stay where they are.

For the whip antenna with a flag attached, it would technically be in an Antenna,
Modified category if one existed with the decorated versions Antenna, Modified,
Decorated.

When we talk about searching for parts, though, I'm guessing people would
look in Flag first for the whip antenna with flag, so I'm not opposed to
moving 30322* parts to Flag and Flag, Decorated categories.
 Author: bje View Messages Posted By bje
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 03:26
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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bje (1420)

Location:  South Africa, Western Cape
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In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  
  In Catalog, bje writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
 
Part No: 3957pb01  Name: Antenna 1 x 4 with Flag with Blue, Red and Green Balloons Pattern (Sticker) - Set 3108
* 
3957pb01 Antenna 1 x 4 with Flag with Blue, Red and Green Balloons Pattern (Sticker) - Set 3108
Parts: Antenna {White}
 
Part No: 3957pb02  Name: Antenna 1 x 4 with Flag with Yellow, Pink and Blue Balloons Pattern (Sticker) - Set 3159
* 
3957pb02 Antenna 1 x 4 with Flag with Yellow, Pink and Blue Balloons Pattern (Sticker) - Set 3159
Parts: Antenna {Yellow}

  The first two parts are antennas with stickers attached. That's it.

Eek, should have checked the flag is a sticker and not a modification of the
antenna with a sticker attached. Ignore for those two parts please.
 Author: markim View Messages Posted By markim
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 15:18
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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markim (7234)

Location:  Netherlands, Friesland
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Personally, I think the Duplo categories are a right royal mess as they are not
consistent with the main catalogue, but I would prefer a Duplo expert to try
and make head or tail of sorting those categories and the individual parts in
them. I'm not a Duplo expert so I'll try not to interfere with Duplo
at all.

My suggestion for the duplo is as follows (I sell quite a bit of it and store
on category, but have made some of my own to make it a bit more clear to store)

- Duplo - Containing all items not in one of the categories below
- Duplo Aircraft - Containing all items related to planes including there wheels,
wings and motor parts
- Duplo Animal - Containing all animals AND! all animal parts (including that
weird tail alike thing that is currently in Animal bodypart-lego)
- Duplo Baseplate - as it is now
- Duplo Boat - Containing all items related to boats.
- Duplo, Brick - For all bricks
- Duplo, Brick, Decorated- For all bricks with a print
- Duplo, Brick, Promotional - Just keep it as it is now
- Duplo Building part - NEW - Containing all big things that are used as a base
to building a building, could also fit the few roof parts.
- Duplo, Cloth - I am fine with this one too
- Duplo Container - NEW -- Would fit some parts from duplo and some parts
from duplo train, but it is what it is a container!
- Duplo, Doll - Also fine
- Duplo Door/Window - NEW -- For all parts that are doors or windows or
fit windows or doors
- Duplo, Figure Wear & Utensil - Fine for now, maybe split if it gets bigger
in Duplo FW and duplo Utensil
- Duplo, Food & Drink - Great
- Duplo, Furniture - this is fine too
- Duplo, Plant - Love the fact this was added last time the categories where
changed.
- Duplo, Plate - For all duplo plates
- Duplo plate modified - For everyting flat that is not a square plate
- Duplo Support - NEW. I would like this one, just because there are some big
supports.
- Duplo, Tile, Decorated - Maybe split in letters and different prints, although,
a hard one....
- Duplo, Toolo - Fine
- Duplo, Train - Kinda okey with this one, maybe split in train and train track?
- Duplo, Vehicle - This one is quite problematic. I would suggest making one
category vehicle, part and one category vehicle. This creates the oppertunity
to split whole cars and part stuff.


Categories like fence, flag and cone could be added but do not seem to have a
that big addition except for being more categories with little in it.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 13:34
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
 Viewed: 41 times
 Topic: Catalog
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  Here is the list of categories where I see inconsistencies related to their current
definitions. I have indicated solutions when one seemed obvious to me.

---------------------------------------------------------

Flag - For cloths intended for attachment to a pole and molded flag and pole
assemblies.

Issue: These parts are not cloths. Some flags are currently listed in the Antenna
category

Solution: new definition needed

---------------------------------------------------------

Foam - For items made of porous or spongy materials.

Issue: We need to be careful with the word ‘spongy’ as is it used throughout
the site to define knit fabrics.

Solution: new definition: (with a bit of help from Dictionary.com)

Foam - For items made of porous materials created from minute bubbles. (Perhaps
miniature would be a better term than minute which I often read as relating to
time not size. )

---------------------------------------------------------

Food & Drink - For items related to ingesting sustenance. For parts, does not
include utensils.

Issue: this definition is oddly worded. Also, there is no Drink here only Food.
If cups are listed in Minifigure, Utensils, then Drink should be removed from
category name until such a time that LEGO creates a separate part specifically
designed to resemble liquid to be consumed.

Solution: new definition and category name

Food - For items that resemble food and excluding utensils or serving containers.

---------------------------------------------------------

Friends – (Parts category) major issues here which require a larger discussion
pertaining to the definition of Friends vs Mini Doll, etc.

---------------------------------------------------------

Panel -- major issues here which require a larger discussion pertaining to
the difference between Panel, Roof, and Cylinder

---------------------------------------------------------

Slope - For items with one or more sides angled from bottom to top, with or without
top studs.

Issue: definition is vague and need details to distinguish it from Wedge and
Slope, Curved. (Also, ‘with or without top studs’ to me seems unnecessary.)

Solution: new definition:

Slope - For items with a rectangular base and one or more flat sides angled from
bottom to top.

Result: parts 4857, 44571 moved to Hinge. parts 13269, 2876 moved to Wedge.
---------------------------------------------------------

Slope, Curved -- major issues here which require a larger discussion pertaining
to the addition of the current ‘curved’ modified bricks

---------------------------------------------------------
Slope, Inverted - For items with one or more sides angled from top to bottom,
with or without attachments or modifications.

Issue: should be consistent with definition of Slope

Solution: new definition:

Slope - For items with a rectangular base and one or more flat sides angled from
top to bottom, with or without attachments or modifications.

---------------------------------------------------------
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 13:34
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  Here is the list of categories where I see inconsistencies related to their current
definitions. I have indicated solutions when one seemed obvious to me.


---------------------------------------------------------

Technic, Brick - For bricks similar to standard bricks that are primarily used
in Technic sets and have side holes.

Issue: definition is inaccurate

Solution: new definition:

Technic, Brick – For items recognizably bricks with side holes, without curves,
and with or without attachments or modifications.

(‘Side holes’ needs to be defined somewhere as holes that fit a standard technic
pin or axle.)

Result: parts 3709a, 3709c, 6061 are moved to Technic, Brick. parts 39789, 57909,
57910, 57908 et al. are moved to Brick, Modified. This would significantly reduce
confusion between Brick, Modified and Technic, Brick as the presence of side
holes would now define the Technic, Brick category. (Yes, there are some other
misc. parts with side holes still in Brick, Modified that need further discussion)

---------------------------------------------------------

Wedge - For items other than plates that have a narrow edge at one end and a
wider edge at the other end.

Issue: definition is vague

Solution: new definition:

Wedge - For items other than plates whose base is tapered from one edge to another
or irregular in shape.

Result: part 32739 moved to Slope. part 98281 moved to Slope, Curved. further
discussion needed for parts 93589, 50948, 47755.

---------------------------------------------------------

Wedge, Plate - For plates that have a narrow edge at one end and a wider edge
at the other end.

Issue: definition is vague. modifications should perhaps be mentioned if they
are staying in this category.

Solution: new definition:

Wedge, Plate - For items recognizably plates whose base is tapered from one edge
to another or irregular in shape, with or without modifications or attachments.

Result: I am still uncertain of parts 42607c01, 42609
 Author: jennnifer View Messages Posted By jennnifer
 Posted: Aug 12, 2020 10:41
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Wedge Diagram
 Viewed: 41 times
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jennnifer (2592)

Location:  USA, Illinois
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 8, 2009 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Old Grey Bricks
  
  
---------------------------------------------------------

Wedge - For items other than plates that have a narrow edge at one end and a
wider edge at the other end.

Issue: definition is vague

Solution: new definition:

Wedge - For items other than plates whose base is tapered from one edge to another
or irregular in shape.

Result: part 32739 moved to Slope. part 98281 moved to Slope, Curved. further
discussion needed for parts 93589, 50948, 47755.

---------------------------------------------------------

Here is a quick diagram I drew up for the Wedge category. Any ideas or improvements?
 
 Author: bje View Messages Posted By bje
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 13:57
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Aircraft, Tail and Wing
 Viewed: 52 times
 Topic: Catalog
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bje (1420)

Location:  South Africa, Western Cape
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 24, 2010 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: JE Bricks
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
Please combine under Aircraft, Tail and Wing under one entry for Aircraft;
Please delete the definition for Wing (since it already an "item used on a flying
vehicle");
Please delete the definition for Tail (since not everything with a fin is under
tail anyway and need not be there either);
Please keep the current definition of Aircraft.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 15:28
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
 Viewed: 54 times
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  Okay, I won't promise anything will happen.

But this is the plan:

1. I'm opening discussion right now, in this thread, on changes in
item type and and category for any items wrongly categorized. I expect discussion
will probably focus on parts and last around two weeks.

2. I'll post all changes deemed worth making on this page:
https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2487

3. The catalog team will discuss internally during the month of September.
This will give everyone time to prepare for item movements. I'll post public
updates/reminders occasionally during August and September.

4. The actual changes will be made on October 1st, 2020. A record of
the changes will be retained for reference purposes for two years on the page
linked to above.

I know some of you are excited about this. It's the first time BrickLink
has been widely open to correcting some longstanding categorization issues.
I'm excited, too. I will fully read and carefully consider every post made
in this thread. To help me out, please:

1. Snip replies (remove extraneous content before replying).
2. Stay on point (don't post digressions).
3. Keep everything in this one thread.
4. Don't expect miracles. Some ideas may have to be added to the
roadmap as separate projects.
5. Try to limit complaints. Or, if you believe everything is already
properly categorized and don't like change, complain loudly and often. Site
management will be watching.

Thanks to everyone for the input you're about to provide. I don't know
how this will go, but I expect it to be interesting.

I've posted my view before, but I'll add it again for the record. Take
it as nothing more or less than the preference of 1 user who uses the Bricklink
catalog extensively every day. Long post I guess but I'm just spilling all
the beans I have at once, for clarity's sake

Just a reminder that whatever we do, moves do have a cost. Besides the reorganisations
needed in the storage of stores, there's also the mutual intelligibility
with other websites to consider. (Yes I know plenty of users can come up with
plenty of cases where catalogs are totally different, but I know from experience
that generally the categorization on for example BO (but also other sites) really
is very similar, the exceptions being manageable from memory.) The catalog has
become a common good of the AFOL community and it's somethign to cherish.
Looking at my personal situation: It would be rather difficult to sell on more
than one platform if the catalogs are very different. I've got 1 million
parts organised alphabetically, and if the similarity is less than some 80% it
would be hard to make it work for either one platform or the other. I would create
a software interface for myself in order to be able to maintain the old categorisation,
so I will survive. But that's still a tricky and error-sensitive endeavor.
And it may be a more significant issue for other category-based sorters.

That's not to say changes can't be made. I just want to advocate that
the effect of the changes should be in proportion to the cost.

To make it concrete: I saw something about curved parts inconsistency. If all
curved Bricks would be moved into Brick,Modified or Brick,Round or Brick,Arch,
that is a fairly large but doable change. It takes some reorganisation and remembering
how that compares to other sites, and it's OK if the effect is that there
previously were real (not just imagined) cases of people being confused and not
being able to find things and it is solved by the change.
Such a change would get a "yes" vote from me.

I don't expect that it will be like this, but just to be clear - if, on the
other hand, we're all gonna sit down in our arm chairs, have some beers,
and be like "dude..... what really is a "Tile", anyway?" then we're losing
the ground under our feet and everything starts floating around. If entire common
categories are going to be replaced by entirely new ones, the cost is huge, and
it is likely that the result will satisfy the esthetics and logic of some, but
not of everyone - meaning the gain is also small. Such changes get a "no" from
me.

That's an extreme, but I hope you get what I mean. As long as changes are
made responsibly, always keeping in mind there is a cost to every change, then
I'm good. I won't have any personal preferences for any changes, I'll
accept whatever way it goes.

Secondly, I'd like to point out humans are smart and our brains are specially
designed for easily picking up things like languages that are totally unlogical
if you think about them and full of exceptions. That is not to say no changes
are needed. Just that not every single change that satisfies a philosophical
esthetic is also really necessary or helpful in the real world. In the end it
comes down to whether or not people can find and browse what they need with ease.

In short: keep the cost in mind, and keep in mind the purpose of the catalog
is practical ease of use and not a philosophical exercise for its own sake. As
long as we're good there, I'm ready for the ride

P.S.:
A third, smaller concern I have is the browse-ability of categories. Tiny categories
like "Tap", "Tail" and "Turntable" are not comfortable to use as they make the
list of categories longer without providing much content to browse. E.g. personally
I would merge "Tap" into "Minifig,Utensil", "Tail" into "Aircaft", and "Turntable"
into "Hinge". Or, a more simple and conservative example can be merging "String"
(and the other String category) and "Hook" into "String & Hook". Or "Crane" and
"Support" into "Support & Crane", for example.
Doing something about small categories can clean up the catalog significantly
(meaning less time needed for users to scan the list of categories) without affecting
too many parts and without really tearing up categories. A good example where
this cost-gain ratio is pretty good.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 17:10
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
 Viewed: 47 times
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
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In Catalog, Teup writes:
  […]
I don't expect that it will be like this, but just to be clear - if, on the
other hand, we're all gonna sit down in our arm chairs, have some beers,
and be like "dude..... what really is a "Tile", anyway?" then we're losing
the ground under our feet and everything starts floating around.

Well, if no one ever get around a firepit under the stars with marshmallows and
ask “what’s a ‘Tile’?” then how do we know what’s a tile?
Hint, if your answer starts with “everybody knows,” then it’s the wrong answer.

You live in a culture that have had a writting system for millenia and dictionaries
for centuries.  Even if you don’t refer to a dictionary every day, you’re taking
for granted that words have a (somewhat) fixed and common definition.

That’s not the case here.  We are using a jargon and so we should define it.

Even in domains where people should know (yes, as in “everybody knows” but they
got the education that should have taught them), you can’t imagine how many times
one could say “You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think
it means.”


  If entire common
categories are going to be replaced by entirely new ones, the cost is huge, and
it is likely that the result will satisfy the esthetics and logic of some, but
not of everyone - meaning the gain is also small. Such changes get a "no" from
me.

That's an extreme, […]

Oh yes, that’s an extreme: you go from “define Tile” to “replace and erase the
word Tile.”  That’s a big jump.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 18:51
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
 Viewed: 38 times
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, Teup writes:
  […]
I don't expect that it will be like this, but just to be clear - if, on the
other hand, we're all gonna sit down in our arm chairs, have some beers,
and be like "dude..... what really is a "Tile", anyway?" then we're losing
the ground under our feet and everything starts floating around.

Well, if no one ever get around a firepit under the stars with marshmallows and
ask “what’s a ‘Tile’?” then how do we know what’s a tile?
Hint, if your answer starts with “everybody knows,” then it’s the wrong answer.

You live in a culture that have had a writting system for millenia and dictionaries
for centuries.  Even if you don’t refer to a dictionary every day, you’re taking
for granted that words have a (somewhat) fixed and common definition.

That’s not the case here.  We are using a jargon and so we should define it.

Even in domains where people should know (yes, as in “everybody knows” but they
got the education that should have taught them), you can’t imagine how many times
one could say “You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think
it means.”

Ok, that's a bit of a different point. My point with the analogy was that
we are not computers perfectly comfortable with small doses of inconsistency
in life. As for language: Many of the compound words we learn make a lot of logical
sense when you pick them apart, but our brains aren't even exploiting that
fact, 9 times out of 10 we just have the entire compounded word in our memories
as one idiosyncratic blob and the brain is really quite happy with it that way.
Not making a case here that nothing needs to be changed, just that we don't
need to put all our efforts in trying pour a 100% perfectly smooth and level
concrete floor for a rally car to drive on

  
  If entire common
categories are going to be replaced by entirely new ones, the cost is huge, and
it is likely that the result will satisfy the esthetics and logic of some, but
not of everyone - meaning the gain is also small. Such changes get a "no" from
me.

That's an extreme, […]

Oh yes, that’s an extreme: you go from “define Tile” to “replace and erase the
word Tile.”  That’s a big jump.

Well... I think you understood what I meant, the implication of the scenario
I was outlining was that we'd be staring into definitions so deeply that
everything stops making sense and then this urge comes in to reimagine everything
from the ground up. At least, that's how it goes when I go that route, getting
all perfectionistic. I'm saying: keep some perspective, ie. try to make things
more logical while at the same time be willing to accept small inconsistencies
as they are always going to be there and they are not a problem if we don't
make them a problem. It's not a maths puzzle that has to be turned upside
down to reach that 1 perfectly correct outcome - there are no correct outcomes,
only outcomes that suit the purpose just fine.

It was just a warning for what it's worth, that's all. I'm just talking
about balance. If that is superfluous and you already had a balanced approach
in mind, then just ignore my point. And if I am the only one here who suffers
from that perfectionist urge once I think about things too deeply, well, then
I'm glad
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 19:24
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
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In Catalog, Teup writes:
  […]
It was just a warning for what it's worth, that's all. I'm just talking
about balance. If that is superfluous and you already had a balanced approach
in mind, then just ignore my point. And if I am the only one here who suffers
from that perfectionist urge once I think about things too deeply, well, then
I'm glad

I think you’ve made that point times enough.

Take my example: I, for one, have refrained several times in this thread from
saying this project is taking the whole problem (yes, yes, I know, there’s no
problem ) by the wrong end, that we should have found and defined attributes
first to… er… oops?
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 07:09
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, Teup writes:
  […]
It was just a warning for what it's worth, that's all. I'm just talking
about balance. If that is superfluous and you already had a balanced approach
in mind, then just ignore my point. And if I am the only one here who suffers
from that perfectionist urge once I think about things too deeply, well, then
I'm glad

I think you’ve made that point times enough.

Take my example: I, for one, have refrained several times in this thread from
saying this project is taking the whole problem (yes, yes, I know, there’s no
problem ) by the wrong end, that we should have found and defined attributes
first to… er… oops?

Well sure, your comment is now on the record as well as mine There's no
need to convince everyone of the one thing or the other. The intention of the
topic was to collect people's ideas and opinions so we better share them
I was just posting it in a "better safe than sorry" mood as I use this catalog
every day and it's important to me.

Anyway I don't think our ideas are in conflict. I totally agree it's
a good idea to improve definitions as a starting point, so as to sharpen the
borders of the categories, and then go over all parts and see whether they still
fall within the borders. That is the smartest and healthiest approach I think.

Just wanted to make sure that people won't be taking it in the direction
of "Tiles sometimes have studs, plates are sometimes missing some studs, jumpers
exist with groove and without groove.... so if you think about it, what really
are 'plates' and 'tiles' anyway? The distinction doesn't
exist, it's all a blur, so let's abolish these constructs and introduce
a category called 'flats' and make categories like 'flats with clip',
'flats with bars'.. etc" That could be a great solution if logic and
consistency is the only goal, but ignores the fact the word "plates" and "tiles"
are at the heart of AFOL jargon anywhere both online and offline. Better to sharpen
the definitions of "plates" and "tiles" where we can, move a couple of parts
as a result, and accept the small amount of imperfection that remains.

I don't think anyone was planning to go all that far, so yes, strawman and
everything, I know But the catalog is so important for my daily work, so I
really want this warning on the record (again ) even if it's totally redundant.
There have been ideas going around of abolishing the entire concept of putting
parts in categories, so it's not a completely irrational fear
 Author: infinibrix View Messages Posted By infinibrix
 Posted: Aug 1, 2020 18:51
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
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infinibrix (2950)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jul 1, 2013 Contact Member Seller
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Store: infinibrix
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  Okay, I won't promise anything will happen.

But this is the plan:

1. I'm opening discussion right now, in this thread, on changes in
item type and and category for any items wrongly categorized. I expect discussion
will probably focus on parts and last around two weeks.

2. I'll post all changes deemed worth making on this page:
https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2487

3. The catalog team will discuss internally during the month of September.
This will give everyone time to prepare for item movements. I'll post public
updates/reminders occasionally during August and September.

4. The actual changes will be made on October 1st, 2020. A record of
the changes will be retained for reference purposes for two years on the page
linked to above.

I know some of you are excited about this. It's the first time BrickLink
has been widely open to correcting some longstanding categorization issues.
I'm excited, too. I will fully read and carefully consider every post made
in this thread. To help me out, please:

1. Snip replies (remove extraneous content before replying).
2. Stay on point (don't post digressions).
3. Keep everything in this one thread.
4. Don't expect miracles. Some ideas may have to be added to the
roadmap as separate projects.
5. Try to limit complaints. Or, if you believe everything is already
properly categorized and don't like change, complain loudly and often. Site
management will be watching.

Thanks to everyone for the input you're about to provide. I don't know
how this will go, but I expect it to be interesting.


Whilst I feel the 'modified' categories work quite well as a place to
seach for the more unusual bricks and plates, I've always felt that clips
are quite a specific thing that people may wish to search for and so would the
catelog benefit from moving parts with clips to their own categories?

Plates with Clips:-
4085
15712
92280
6019
63868
11476

Bricks with clips:-
60476
30241b
60583b
30237

Whilst you could do the same with bricks with pins, connectors, sockets and handles
I fear people may struggle to determine all those different aspects and even
more so if the part contains a clip aswell as a handle or pin but when it comes
to peoples understanding of what a clip is I think everyone shares that same
idea? Though the catalog describes the part 4081b as having a clip but to me
its more of a pin socket?
 Author: bje View Messages Posted By bje
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 04:23
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Help Animals & Accessories ???
 Viewed: 37 times
 Topic: Catalog
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bje (1420)

Location:  South Africa, Western Cape
Member Since Contact Type Status
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Store: JE Bricks
A few questions please.

The cloth and foam parts are problematic. Can you state what the catalogue preference
is please: Does a part get categorised by its function first or what it is made
of first? And publish the rule in the help page as it would be of some help (try
to get away from those unwritten rules while you are at it. Actually make a help
page with all the unwritten rules as well (that's easy for you - it is blank))
in avoiding confusion. We might even get away from categories such as foam and
cloth altogether if it can be done consistently or if there is a stated catalogue
preference.


Figures.
Are you looking to move figures as well, where they meet the definition?
For example Piggy bank accessories and Hamm figures:
 
Part No: 89992  Name: Pig Bowler Hat
* 
89992 Pig Bowler Hat
Parts: Animal, Accessory {Black}
 
Part No: 89993  Name: Piggy Bank Coin Plug
* 
89993 Piggy Bank Coin Plug
Parts: Animal, Accessory {Medium Nougat}
Name, face, can apparently speak, which other normal piggy banks cannot do so
it must be aware that it is different somehow. So then it becomes a figure and
the accessory parts moves to minifig accessories and cones?
Do you want to test each item against the definition of character first and then
go to parts classification or vice versa? See for instance:
 
Part No: Buckbeakc01  Name: Hippogriff, Harry Potter (Buckbeak)
* 
Buckbeakc01 (Inv) Hippogriff, Harry Potter (Buckbeak)
Parts: Animal, Air {Light Bluish Gray}
which: have a name, a face, and probably display some form of
sentient behaviour beyond that of a normal flying animal type thingie. Does all
three of the qualifiers (name, face, sentient behaviour) have to be equally met
in deciding if Hamm is an animal,land with accessories or is the qualifier more
weighted to having name for instance? Having clearer guidelines might make it
easier and avoid long discussions on single parts or single figures.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 14:10
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
 Viewed: 74 times
 Topic: Catalog
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
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Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
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After the first day of discussion here are the issues identified, sometimes paraphrased,
and my responses:

Antenna Issue: There are currently flags in this category

Response: The 3957* parts with stickers should stay. Part 30322 should
go to Flag and 30322* parts to Flag, Decorated. This would only leave seven
parts in the category. I'm wondering if it would be worth moving those parts
as well and eliminating the Antenna category altogether.

Ball - Part x12 does not fit definition (suggestion is to move to Belville
or Scala - additional suggestion is to move other balls to Ball)


Response: Theme-based categories are somewhat problematic, especially
when there is System overlap (Friends, Belville, Scala, etc.). I think here
the category definition should be modified. Agree on moving balls to the Ball
category. This is a relatively new category (October, 2018) and that was always
the intent.

Baseplates - overlap between categories, including raised and road plates
in multiple categories (suggested solution is to simplify into decorated and
undecorated categories as is done for other parts)


Response: Change could affect 234 total parts. Agree that it would be
simpler and more consistent with how other categories are handled. Perfectly
willing to do it now, but it may need to be added as a roadmap project instead.

Bracket - category poorly defined (suggested solution is to rewrite definition)

Response: Like Antenna, here I would support eliminating the category
altogether. There are only 24 parts within and all of them would probably fit
better in other categories.

Brick, Arch and Brick, Modified and Cylinder and Panel and Slope, Curved –
major issues here which require a larger discussion


Response: Let's have that discussion.

Brick, Round - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite
definition)


Response: Agree. Will get this done.

Cloth - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite definition)

Response: Agree. Will get this done.

Cone - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite definition
and move some parts)


Response: Agree. Will get the definition rewritten. However, don't
really agree on moving parts. Everything in the category now is roughly cone-shaped.

Duplo - multiple suggestions made

Response: Will look into getting these done, but would probably work better
as a separate project for the catalog roadmap.

Flag - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite definition)

Response: Agree. Will get this done.

Foam - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite definition)

Response: Agree. Will get this done.

Food & Drink - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite
definition)


Response: Agree. Will get this done.

Friends - issues with category definition and items included

Response: Agree. Think this would function better as a separate catalog
roadmap project, but definition can be rewritten and potentially the category
can be renamed.

Roof - category is unneeded

Response: Agree. There are only 13 parts in the Roof category. Five
of them are decorated, so really only eight parts. Will take a closer look to
determine the feasibility of eliminating this category.

Slope - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite definition
and move some parts)


Response: Agree on definition. Will get this done. The Hinge category
has problems of its own, but agree on moving 4857 and 44571 there. Also tentatively
agree on moving 13269 and 2876 to Wedge.

Slope, Inverted - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite
definition)


Response: Agree. Will get this done.

Technic, Brick, Wedge, and Wedge, Plate - poorly written definitions (suggested
solution is to rewrite definitions and move some parts)


Response: Agree there are problems. There's a lot going on here.
Will look into it some more.

Wing and Tail - move all to Aircraft

Response: Agree. There are only 35 parts in the two combined categories
and they are nearly all aircraft parts. BUT, we have the Tail, Decorated category
containing 327 parts. These would all need to be moved to Aircraft, Decorated
and that's a lot of movement. Not sure on this many changes.

Merge "Tap" into "Minifig,Utensil", "Tail" into "Aircaft", and "Turntable"
into "Hinge". Or, a more simple and conservative example can be merging "String"
(and the other String category) and "Hook" into "String & Hook". Or "Crane" and
"Support" into "Support & Crane", for example.


Response: Probably all good suggestions. Will look into them further.

Retitle 4081 parts because they do not have clips

Response: Definitely agree. Will look into this further.

Give parts with clips their own category

Response: Probably no to this. You can search for "clip" and find them
- although the same argument can be made for parts with a hinge. Regardless,
the Hinge category has been problematic and a Clip category would have the same
problems.

The cloth and foam parts are problematic. Can you state what the catalogue
preference is please: Does a part get categorised by its function first or what
it is made of first?


Response: This is a tough one. I would say we should be categorizing
first by what a part is made of. For example, there are cloth flags and wings.
They are categorized as cloth, not flags or wings. Consistent application of
this approach would mean moving other parts to Cloth (figure capes, for example).
If we're going to have Cloth, Felt, Foam, Paper, etc. categories, then we
should use them consistently. I'll work on defining these unwritten rules
on the categories page as you suggest.

Figures. Are you looking to move figures as well, where they meet the definition?

Response: Everything is open for discussion. If it looks too big to tackle
right now, at least we can identify issues and add to the catalog roadmap. I
think in the case of figures we could move some of them.

So then it becomes a figure and the accessory parts moves to minifig accessories
and cones?


Response: That seems reasonable to me.

Does all three of the qualifiers (name, face, sentient behaviour) have to
be equally met in deciding if Hamm is an animal,land with accessories or is the
qualifier more weighted to having name for instance? Having clearer guidelines
might make it easier and avoid long discussions on single parts or single figures.


Response: The primary qualifier is sentient behavior. It's a difficult
thing to qualify, but carries more weight than a face or name (or both). If
you have suggestions for improving the guidelines, please share them.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 15:05
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
 Viewed: 41 times
 Topic: Catalog
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  After the first day of discussion here are the issues identified, sometimes paraphrased,
and my responses:

Antenna Issue: There are currently flags in this category

Response: The 3957* parts with stickers should stay. Part 30322 should
go to Flag and 30322* parts to Flag, Decorated. This would only leave seven
parts in the category. I'm wondering if it would be worth moving those parts
as well and eliminating the Antenna category altogether.

Ball - Part x12 does not fit definition (suggestion is to move to Belville
or Scala - additional suggestion is to move other balls to Ball)


Response: Theme-based categories are somewhat problematic, especially
when there is System overlap (Friends, Belville, Scala, etc.). I think here
the category definition should be modified. Agree on moving balls to the Ball
category. This is a relatively new category (October, 2018) and that was always
the intent.

Baseplates - overlap between categories, including raised and road plates
in multiple categories (suggested solution is to simplify into decorated and
undecorated categories as is done for other parts)


Response: Change could affect 234 total parts. Agree that it would be
simpler and more consistent with how other categories are handled. Perfectly
willing to do it now, but it may need to be added as a roadmap project instead.

Bracket - category poorly defined (suggested solution is to rewrite definition)

Response: Like Antenna, here I would support eliminating the category
altogether. There are only 24 parts within and all of them would probably fit
better in other categories.

Brick, Arch and Brick, Modified and Cylinder and Panel and Slope, Curved –
major issues here which require a larger discussion


Response: Let's have that discussion.

Brick, Round - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite
definition)


Response: Agree. Will get this done.

Cloth - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite definition)

Response: Agree. Will get this done.

Cone - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite definition
and move some parts)


Response: Agree. Will get the definition rewritten. However, don't
really agree on moving parts. Everything in the category now is roughly cone-shaped.

Duplo - multiple suggestions made

Response: Will look into getting these done, but would probably work better
as a separate project for the catalog roadmap.

Flag - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite definition)

Response: Agree. Will get this done.

Foam - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite definition)

Response: Agree. Will get this done.

Food & Drink - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite
definition)


Response: Agree. Will get this done.

Friends - issues with category definition and items included

Response: Agree. Think this would function better as a separate catalog
roadmap project, but definition can be rewritten and potentially the category
can be renamed.

Roof - category is unneeded

Response: Agree. There are only 13 parts in the Roof category. Five
of them are decorated, so really only eight parts. Will take a closer look to
determine the feasibility of eliminating this category.

Slope - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite definition
and move some parts)


Response: Agree on definition. Will get this done. The Hinge category
has problems of its own, but agree on moving 4857 and 44571 there. Also tentatively
agree on moving 13269 and 2876 to Wedge.

Slope, Inverted - poorly written definition (suggested solution is to rewrite
definition)


Response: Agree. Will get this done.

Technic, Brick, Wedge, and Wedge, Plate - poorly written definitions (suggested
solution is to rewrite definitions and move some parts)


Response: Agree there are problems. There's a lot going on here.
Will look into it some more.

Wing and Tail - move all to Aircraft

Response: Agree. There are only 35 parts in the two combined categories
and they are nearly all aircraft parts. BUT, we have the Tail, Decorated category
containing 327 parts. These would all need to be moved to Aircraft, Decorated
and that's a lot of movement. Not sure on this many changes.

Merge "Tap" into "Minifig,Utensil", "Tail" into "Aircaft", and "Turntable"
into "Hinge". Or, a more simple and conservative example can be merging "String"
(and the other String category) and "Hook" into "String & Hook". Or "Crane" and
"Support" into "Support & Crane", for example.


Response: Probably all good suggestions. Will look into them further.

Retitle 4081 parts because they do not have clips

Response: Definitely agree. Will look into this further.

Give parts with clips their own category

Response: Probably no to this. You can search for "clip" and find them
- although the same argument can be made for parts with a hinge. Regardless,
the Hinge category has been problematic and a Clip category would have the same
problems.

The cloth and foam parts are problematic. Can you state what the catalogue
preference is please: Does a part get categorised by its function first or what
it is made of first?


Response: This is a tough one. I would say we should be categorizing
first by what a part is made of. For example, there are cloth flags and wings.
They are categorized as cloth, not flags or wings. Consistent application of
this approach would mean moving other parts to Cloth (figure capes, for example).
If we're going to have Cloth, Felt, Foam, Paper, etc. categories, then we
should use them consistently. I'll work on defining these unwritten rules
on the categories page as you suggest.

Figures. Are you looking to move figures as well, where they meet the definition?

Response: Everything is open for discussion. If it looks too big to tackle
right now, at least we can identify issues and add to the catalog roadmap. I
think in the case of figures we could move some of them.

So then it becomes a figure and the accessory parts moves to minifig accessories
and cones?


Response: That seems reasonable to me.

Does all three of the qualifiers (name, face, sentient behaviour) have to
be equally met in deciding if Hamm is an animal,land with accessories or is the
qualifier more weighted to having name for instance? Having clearer guidelines
might make it easier and avoid long discussions on single parts or single figures.


Response: The primary qualifier is sentient behavior. It's a difficult
thing to qualify, but carries more weight than a face or name (or both). If
you have suggestions for improving the guidelines, please share them.

Thanks for the update. Oh! And I don't know how the administration is kept
so I will just add this one suggestion of mine again:

A category "Minifig, Lower Body" or "Minifig, Legs, Modified" or something
along those lines, to contain all lower bodies which are not regular legs assemblies,
such as robes, centaur bodies, ghost trails, mermaid tails.. I'm not sure
what to do with the short movable legs assembly.. I will leave the details to
others. But IMO it's best to have all non-standard legs, including those,
in one category.. since like 90% of minifigs have standard legs and the legs
assembly category already contains quite a lot.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 15:36
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
 Viewed: 42 times
 Topic: Catalog
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  After the first day of discussion here are the issues identified, sometimes paraphrased,
and my responses:[…]

Cool.


  Roof - category is unneeded

Response: Agree.[…]

Super.

In the same vein,
  “Technic, Link - For items that make rigid joints in linkages and continuous
track systems that are used primarily in Technic sets.”
mixes 6 (+2 variants) link-bars and 4 treads / chain-links with 2 attachments.

I fear the only link (pun intended) between these two groups is that they use
the word “link,” and not all of them do at that!

I think it would make more sense to either
a. put the treads (and attachments) in Tire & Tread, where other treads already
are (though one-piece treads),
b. make a new “Tread” category with all the treads and their attachments (and
rename Tire & Tread to Tire).

I’d be partial to (a).

Then, that would leave the Technic, Link category with only 6(8) parts….
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 15:41
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
 Viewed: 44 times
 Topic: Catalog
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  After the first day of discussion here are the issues identified, sometimes paraphrased,
and my responses:[…]

Cool.


  Roof - category is unneeded

Response: Agree.[…]

Super.

In the same vein,
  “Technic, Link - For items that make rigid joints in linkages and continuous
track systems that are used primarily in Technic sets.”
mixes 6 (+2 variants) link-bars and 4 treads / chain-links with 2 attachments.

I fear the only link (pun intended) between these two groups is that they use
the word “link,” and not all of them do at that!

I think it would make more sense to either
a. put the treads (and attachments) in Tire & Tread, where other treads already
are (though one-piece treads),
b. make a new “Tread” category with all the treads and their attachments (and
rename Tire & Tread to Tire).

I’d be partial to (a).

Forgot to add:  How should someone know a tread is “Technic” or not?  How
should someone know the difference between a “Chain Link” and a “Tread”?


  Then, that would leave the Technic, Link category with only 6(8) parts….
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 17:03
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
 Viewed: 31 times
 Topic: Catalog
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  After the first day of discussion here are the issues identified, sometimes paraphrased,
and my responses:[…]

Cool.


  Roof - category is unneeded

Response: Agree.[…]

Super.

In the same vein,
  “Technic, Link - For items that make rigid joints in linkages and continuous
track systems that are used primarily in Technic sets.”
mixes 6 (+2 variants) link-bars and 4 treads / chain-links with 2 attachments.

I fear the only link (pun intended) between these two groups is that they use
the word “link,” and not all of them do at that!

I think it would make more sense to either
a. put the treads (and attachments) in Tire & Tread, where other treads already
are (though one-piece treads),
b. make a new “Tread” category with all the treads and their attachments (and
rename Tire & Tread to Tire).

I’d be partial to (a).

Then, that would leave the Technic, Link category with only 6(8) parts….

Good point, while I like "Technic" as a whole roughly the way it is, I feel like
some renovations are in order. "Link" is a tiny subcategory that is rarely used,
while the main Technic vanilla category (a leftover bin) contains more than 10
times the number of parts and is used all the time. I think it would be good
to redistribute some parts within Technic (or, in the case of SylvainLS'
suggestion, out of Technic.. but generally mostly within Technic), so that the
subcategories are more comparable in relevance.

I've been thinking about a category "Technic, Transmission" for this family
of parts, to add a bit of structure by taking parts out of the vanilla category...

 
Part No: 6539  Name: Technic, Driving Ring 2L
* 
6539 Technic, Driving Ring 2L
Parts: Technic {Light Gray}
 
Part No: 18947  Name: Technic, Driving Ring 3L
* 
18947 Technic, Driving Ring 3L
Parts: Technic {Dark Bluish Gray}
 
Part No: 6641  Name: Technic, Changeover Catch
* 
6641 Technic, Changeover Catch
Parts: Technic {Light Gray}
 
Part No: 35188  Name: Technic, Changeover Rotary Catch
* 
35188 Technic, Changeover Rotary Catch
Parts: Technic {Orange}
 
Part No: 32187  Name: Technic, Driving Ring Extension
* 
32187 Technic, Driving Ring Extension
Parts: Technic {Orange}
 
Part No: 35186  Name: Technic, Driving Ring Extension with 8 Teeth Inside and Outside
* 
35186 Technic, Driving Ring Extension with 8 Teeth Inside and Outside
Parts: Technic {Yellow}
 
Part No: 6549  Name: Technic, Stick Shift
* 
6549 Technic, Stick Shift
Parts: Technic {Black}
 
Part No: 6543  Name: Technic, Stick Shift Plate
* 
6543 Technic, Stick Shift Plate
Parts: Technic {White}
 
Part No: 6538  Name: Technic, Axle Connector 2L (Ridged Undetermined Type)
* 
6538 Technic, Axle Connector 2L (Ridged Undetermined Type)
Parts: Technic, Connector {Light Gray}
 
Part No: 18948  Name: Technic, Driving Ring Connector
* 
18948 Technic, Driving Ring Connector
Parts: Technic, Connector {White}

I know, I've said I don't like small categories.. it's just an idea.
This seems like a meaningful family of parts to me that will be often referenced,
so I'd make an exception there. Or maybe combine it with all the pistons/engines/crankshafts
out of the vanilla category and call it Engine & Transmission. Just some food
for thought
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 18:14
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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In Catalog, Teup writes:
  […]
Good point, while I like "Technic" as a whole roughly the way it is, I feel like
some renovations are in order. "Link" is a tiny subcategory that is rarely used,
while the main Technic vanilla category (a leftover bin) contains more than 10
times the number of parts and is used all the time. I think it would be good
to redistribute some parts within Technic (or, in the case of SylvainLS'
suggestion, out of Technic.. but generally mostly within Technic), so that the
subcategories are more comparable in relevance.

Agreed.

So,
 
Part No: 2852  Name: Technic, Engine Connecting Rod
* 
2852 Technic, Engine Connecting Rod
Parts: Technic {Light Gray}
isn’t that a Technic Link?

 
Part No: 4185  Name: Technic, Wedge Belt Wheel (Pulley)
* 
4185 Technic, Wedge Belt Wheel (Pulley)
Parts: Technic {Orange}
a wheel, and
 
Part No: 2815  Name: Technic, Wedge Belt Wheel Tire
* 
2815 Technic, Wedge Belt Wheel Tire
Parts: Technic {Black}
a tire?

 
Part No: 2743  Name: Technic, Slope Short (Wing Front)
* 
2743 Technic, Slope Short (Wing Front)
Parts: Technic {Sand Blue}
 
Part No: 2744  Name: Technic, Slope 33 6 x 1 x 1 2/3 Long (Wing Back)
* 
2744 Technic, Slope 33 6 x 1 x 1 2/3 Long (Wing Back)
Parts: Technic {Black}
 
Part No: 2823  Name: Technic, Forklift Fork
* 
2823 Technic, Forklift Fork
Parts: Technic {White}
modified Technic Bricks?

 
Part No: 32072  Name: Technic, Knob Wheel
* 
32072 Technic, Knob Wheel
Parts: Technic {Black}
would be a Technic, Gear if the part about teeth wasn’t in the definition.

We could also put all the digger buckets together (even those in Vehicle).
(That could lead to wondering about the tipper buckets and ends but it seems
to me digger buckets have a recognizable shape the tipper buckets don’t have,
especially the tipper ends.)

I would also argue that
 
Part No: 32474  Name: Technic, Ball Joint
* 
32474 Technic, Ball Joint
Parts: Technic {Metallic Silver}
 
Part No: 53585  Name: Technic, Ball Joint with Through Axle Hole
* 
53585 Technic, Ball Joint with Through Axle Hole
Parts: Technic {Black}
are Ball Joints and we could have a category for Ball Joints but those are divided
in the theme categories Bionicle and Hero Factory and as much as I don’t like
function categories, especially when shape is more obvious / directly recognized,
I really don’t like theme categories at all.


  I've been thinking about a category "Technic, Transmission" for this family
of parts, to add a bit of structure by taking parts out of the vanilla category...

Not agreed.  First, “Transmission” is a function.  Then, I don’t think it’s easy
to know which parts can function in a Transmission or as Transmitters.
If we are taking Transmission as in Car Gearbox, why aren’t gears in there, or
differentials?
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 18:46
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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 Topic: Catalog
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, Teup writes:
  […]
Good point, while I like "Technic" as a whole roughly the way it is, I feel like
some renovations are in order. "Link" is a tiny subcategory that is rarely used,
while the main Technic vanilla category (a leftover bin) contains more than 10
times the number of parts and is used all the time. I think it would be good
to redistribute some parts within Technic (or, in the case of SylvainLS'
suggestion, out of Technic.. but generally mostly within Technic), so that the
subcategories are more comparable in relevance.

Agreed.

So,
 
Part No: 2852  Name: Technic, Engine Connecting Rod
* 
2852 Technic, Engine Connecting Rod
Parts: Technic {Light Gray}
isn’t that a Technic Link?

 
Part No: 4185  Name: Technic, Wedge Belt Wheel (Pulley)
* 
4185 Technic, Wedge Belt Wheel (Pulley)
Parts: Technic {Orange}
a wheel, and

Hmmm, I'd not call it a wheel. Well, it is a wheel in the general sense,
in the way gears are also wheels (and a wheel of cheese is a wheel ) but I
feel a pulley or a belt transmission wheel, which may be used as an alternative
to gears, is something different from the category of wheels that are basically
vehicle wheels (which this part usually is not). It makes sense to me to include
it with the Technic categories, as it is almost always used in Technic sets and
when brainstorm-browsing how to put together a technic mechanism, IMO it's
nice to have it right there in the Technic family without having to digress to
wheel to find it.

  
 
Part No: 2743  Name: Technic, Slope Short (Wing Front)
* 
2743 Technic, Slope Short (Wing Front)
Parts: Technic {Sand Blue}
 
Part No: 2744  Name: Technic, Slope 33 6 x 1 x 1 2/3 Long (Wing Back)
* 
2744 Technic, Slope 33 6 x 1 x 1 2/3 Long (Wing Back)
Parts: Technic {Black}
 
Part No: 2823  Name: Technic, Forklift Fork
* 
2823 Technic, Forklift Fork
Parts: Technic {White}
modified Technic Bricks?

Yep that would be nice.

  
  I've been thinking about a category "Technic, Transmission" for this family
of parts, to add a bit of structure by taking parts out of the vanilla category...

Not agreed.  First, “Transmission” is a function.  Then, I don’t think it’s easy
to know which parts can function in a Transmission or as Transmitters.
If we are taking Transmission as in Car Gearbox, why aren’t gears in there, or
differentials?

Hmm I was thinking about the gear-switching kind of transmission and not what
differentials do, I'm not really good with the terminology. Maybe there's
a word for it. The parts that I listed are really a coherent group that are used
together for the specific purpose of switching transmission in a vehicle gearbox
or for a lever that switches between functions of a model. They are rarely used
for other purposes and I think their relation deserves to be reflected in the
catalog. Plus it is an opportunity to reduce the Technic leftover category. But
you have a point about the gears... clutch gears are an essential part of this
system and have a close relationship to the driving rings and I can see those
in the category as well. But then that would of course mean taking gears out
of the gear category..... tough call.

I'm not an avid Technic builder or anything, I just have a large stock of
Technic parts and these are ideas that come to mind when I see how things are
structured. Maybe actual Technic builders could chime in to share their view?
 Author: bje View Messages Posted By bje
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 16:23
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
 Viewed: 38 times
 Topic: Catalog
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bje (1420)

Location:  South Africa, Western Cape
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In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  
Wing and Tail - move all to Aircraft

Response: Agree. There are only 35 parts in the two combined categories
and they are nearly all aircraft parts. BUT, we have the Tail, Decorated category
containing 327 parts. These would all need to be moved to Aircraft, Decorated
and that's a lot of movement. Not sure on this many changes.


Alternative is to move all of the parts with fins to tail:
 
Part No: 4588  Name: Brick, Round 1 x 1 with Fins
* 
4588 Brick, Round 1 x 1 with Fins
Parts: Brick, Round {Medium Lavender}
 
Part No: 4591  Name: Brick, Round 2 x 2 x 2 with Fins
* 
4591 Brick, Round 2 x 2 x 2 with Fins
Parts: Brick, Round {White}
 
Part No: 28779  Name: Tile, Modified 1 x 4 with Pin Hole and Fin on Top
* 
28779 Tile, Modified 1 x 4 with Pin Hole and Fin on Top
Parts: Tile, Modified {Black}

Change the definition of Tail to:
For bricks, tiles and wedges modified by a fin/fins that are the rear section
of aircraft, including rockets.
 Author: mockingbird View Messages Posted By mockingbird
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 17:42
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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mockingbird (2369)

Location:  Netherlands, Noord-Brabant
Member Since Contact Type Status
Mar 16, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Mockingbird's Nest Egg
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:

  Ball - Part x12 does not fit definition (suggestion is to move to Belville
or Scala - additional suggestion is to move other balls to Ball)


Response: Theme-based categories are somewhat problematic, especially
when there is System overlap (Friends, Belville, Scala, etc.). I think here
the category definition should be modified. Agree on moving balls to the Ball
category. This is a relatively new category (October, 2018) and that was always
the intent.


Could part x12 be a modified plate round with ball?
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 18:16
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Catalog, mockingbird writes:
  In Catalog, StormChaser writes:

  Ball - Part x12 does not fit definition (suggestion is to move to Belville
or Scala - additional suggestion is to move other balls to Ball)


Response: Theme-based categories are somewhat problematic, especially
when there is System overlap (Friends, Belville, Scala, etc.). I think here
the category definition should be modified. Agree on moving balls to the Ball
category. This is a relatively new category (October, 2018) and that was always
the intent.

Could part
 
Part No: x12  Name: Ball with Stud Attachment Stand (Finial Round, Raised - Scala Roof, Belville Bed)
* 
x12 Ball with Stud Attachment Stand (Finial Round, Raised - Scala Roof, Belville Bed)
Parts: Ball {Red}
be a modified plate round with ball?

I find that hard to believe it’s a plate.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 18:51
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, mockingbird writes:
  In Catalog, StormChaser writes:

  Ball - Part x12 does not fit definition (suggestion is to move to Belville
or Scala - additional suggestion is to move other balls to Ball)


Response: Theme-based categories are somewhat problematic, especially
when there is System overlap (Friends, Belville, Scala, etc.). I think here
the category definition should be modified. Agree on moving balls to the Ball
category. This is a relatively new category (October, 2018) and that was always
the intent.

Could part
 
Part No: x12  Name: Ball with Stud Attachment Stand (Finial Round, Raised - Scala Roof, Belville Bed)
* 
x12 Ball with Stud Attachment Stand (Finial Round, Raised - Scala Roof, Belville Bed)
Parts: Ball {Red}
be a modified plate round with ball?

I find that hard to believe it’s a plate.

Sooner a Brick,Round, if this really should be a Brick,Round:

 
Part No: 15395  Name: Brick, Round 2 x 2 Dome Bottom
* 
15395 Brick, Round 2 x 2 Dome Bottom
Parts: Brick, Round {Sand Green}
 Author: qwertyboy View Messages Posted By qwertyboy
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 19:49
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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qwertyboy (5499)

Location:  Canada, Alberta
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 9, 2013 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Maple Bricks
In Catalog, Teup writes:
  In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, mockingbird writes:
  Could part
 
Part No: x12  Name: Ball with Stud Attachment Stand (Finial Round, Raised - Scala Roof, Belville Bed)
* 
x12 Ball with Stud Attachment Stand (Finial Round, Raised - Scala Roof, Belville Bed)
Parts: Ball {Red}
be a modified plate round with ball?

I find that hard to believe it’s a plate.

Sooner a Brick,Round, if this really should be a Brick,Round:

 
Part No: 15395  Name: Brick, Round 2 x 2 Dome Bottom
* 
15395 Brick, Round 2 x 2 Dome Bottom
Parts: Brick, Round {Sand Green}

Ah - the ever-slippier slope of "if this, then". This, for sure, is a brick:
 
Part No: 3003  Name: Brick 2 x 2
* 
3003 Brick 2 x 2
Parts: Brick {Blue}
So this kinda looks like a "rounded brick":
 
Part No: 3941  Name: Brick, Round 2 x 2 with Axle Hole
* 
3941 Brick, Round 2 x 2 with Axle Hole
Parts: Brick, Round {Blue}
But then, if that is a "brick, round", this one is kinda similar:
 
Part No: 553b  Name: Brick, Round 2 x 2 Dome Top - Blocked Open Stud with Bottom Axle Holder x Shape + Orientation
* 
553b Brick, Round 2 x 2 Dome Top - Blocked Open Stud with Bottom Axle Holder x Shape + Orientation
Parts: Brick, Round {Yellow}
Hm. So in that case, this one is a "brick, round" as well (just upside-down):
 
Part No: 15395  Name: Brick, Round 2 x 2 Dome Bottom
* 
15395 Brick, Round 2 x 2 Dome Bottom
Parts: Brick, Round {Sand Green}
Then, this guy for sure is a "brick, round" (both rounded top-and-bottom):
 
Part No: 20953  Name: Brick, Round 2 x 2 Sphere with Stud / Robot Body
* 
20953 Brick, Round 2 x 2 Sphere with Stud / Robot Body
Parts: Brick, Round {Black}
OK, so this one should be there as well (it is only missing the top stud):
 
Part No: x12  Name: Ball with Stud Attachment Stand (Finial Round, Raised - Scala Roof, Belville Bed)
* 
x12 Ball with Stud Attachment Stand (Finial Round, Raised - Scala Roof, Belville Bed)
Parts: Ball {Red}

Now, look at just the last one without its "history". Does it look like a brick
for the novice user? Nope. It looks more like a ball. In fact, it looks way more
like a
 
Part No: 52629  Name: Ball, Hard Plastic 19mm D. (Spike Prime)
* 
52629 Ball, Hard Plastic 19mm D. (Spike Prime)
Parts: Ball {White}
If we were to continue above "if/then", would this ball be a "brick, round" as
well? After all, it is only missing its anti-stud compared to x12. Or is our
"brick, round" category definition dependent on parts having an anti-stud?

Niek.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 20:15
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
In Catalog, qwertyboy writes:
  is our "brick, round" category definition dependent on parts having an anti-stud?

The definition is:

Brick, Round - For bricks and modified bricks with spherical sides,
with or without attachments.


It can be found on this page:

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=1568

If you have suggestions for improving any definitions, they are welcomed.
 Author: qwertyboy View Messages Posted By qwertyboy
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 22:38
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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qwertyboy (5499)

Location:  Canada, Alberta
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 9, 2013 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Maple Bricks
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  In Catalog, qwertyboy writes:
  is our "brick, round" category definition dependent on parts having an anti-stud?

The definition is:

Brick, Round - For bricks and modified bricks with spherical sides,
with or without attachments.


It can be found on this page:

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=1568

I saw that. I tried to apply this on the list I described. I am not sure where
it breaks down (meaning where does the list stop talking about "brick, round").
It might be because it relies on a different definition - "brick" / "modified
brick".

I fear that we are going down a path of increasingly technical / obscure definitions
to try and force each part in a category. I understand the wish to get proper
definitions for categories. I just feel that parts should be in categories based
on what they remind novices of. It is similar to the question you sometimes ask
forum visitors looking for a part ID. "What search terms did you use?".

This particular example of part x12 illustrated what I see happening. I am fairly
sure that if you ask people to describe part x12, you will not hear anything
like "plate modified" (like a previous poster suggested), or "brick, round"
(like Teup suggested - not sure if that was serious). I think they would comment
on its spherical shape, as that is obviously dominant. So to me it makes perfect
sense to place it in a category called "ball". Arguments like "it looks almost
like this other part which is already in cat xxx" start to break down (as my
example tries to show) the deeper you go.

A similar issue I see is with
 
Part No: 30209  Name: Plate, Modified 1 x 2 with 4 x 4 Dish at 90 degrees
* 
30209 Plate, Modified 1 x 2 with 4 x 4 Dish at 90 degrees
Parts: Plate, Modified {White}
The dominant feature is not the plate, it is the rather large dish. IMO it should
be in the "dish" category.

  If you have suggestions for improving any definitions, they are welcomed.

I don't have a suggestion for a new definition for "brick, round" as I don't
think we should make definitions to force parts somewhere, and I was commenting
on this particular part. They should be where it makes sense for a layman. X12
is (in my possibly clouded view) a ball (maybe "ball, modified"), not a "brick,
round".

Hope this makes sense.

(And I don't envy your task - no matter what you/we land on, there will be
people who disagree. I admire your work and the effort and time spent.)

Niek.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 3, 2020 04:36
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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yorbrick (781)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Yorbricks
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  In Catalog, qwertyboy writes:
  is our "brick, round" category definition dependent on parts having an anti-stud?

The definition is:

Brick, Round - For bricks and modified bricks with spherical sides,
with or without attachments.


It can be found on this page:

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=1568

If you have suggestions for improving any definitions, they are welcomed.

 
Part No: 87081  Name: Brick, Round 4 x 4 with Hole
* 
87081 Brick, Round 4 x 4 with Hole
Parts: Brick, Round {Bright Light Orange}

I'd agree this is a round brick. However, it does not fit the definition
of a round brick.

Brick, Round - For bricks and modified bricks with spherical
sides, with or without attachments.

It does not have spherical sides. Indeed, virtually all round bricks do not
have spherical sides. Most are cylindrical or truncated cylinders. There are
the few dome parts and robot bodies that are almost spherical but otherwise the
others do not fit there with the current definition.

But also the term brick has a definition: Brick - For basic and unmodified
LEGO system building bricks with one or more top studs and straight sides.

Similarly, modified bricks are defined: Brick, Modified - For bricks
without slopes or curves that include an attachment or modification.


So how can a brick or modified brick, as referred to in the definition of a round
brick, have spherical (or cylindrical sides) when the definitions of bricks and
modified bricks rule out the possibility of having non-straight or curved sides?

I think the term brick should not refer to a standard brick. The term brick should
be for the parent category. Then what are now called bricks could be "brick,
standard" or "brick, basic". That way, the term brick could be used to refer
to all bricks, be they standard, modified, round, etc.
 Author: jonwil View Messages Posted By jonwil
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 20:58
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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jonwil (67)

Location:  Australia, Queensland
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jul 9, 2002 Member Does Not Allow Contact Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In regards to the Friends category, where do you categorize those parts currently
under Friends like
 
Part No: 93091  Name: Friends Accessories Handbag with Zipper
* 
93091 Friends Accessories Handbag with Zipper
Parts: Friends {Pearl Gold}
and
 
Part No: 11609  Name: Friends Accessories Star with Stud Holder
* 
11609 Friends Accessories Star with Stud Holder
Parts: Friends {Bright Light Orange}
that get widely used in both sets
with minidolls and sets with regular figures?

Part
 
Part No: 24131  Name: Minifigure, Hat with Pin Attachment, Party Hat
* 
24131 Minifigure, Hat with Pin Attachment, Party Hat
Parts: Minifigure, Headgear Accessory {Magenta}
is another one, its predominantly used in sets containing minidolls
and was clearly created for the Friends line but is in Minifigure, Headgear Accessory.

I would suggest a category for minidoll utensils (anything designed to be held
in the hand, similar to the minifig utensil category), a category for parts (like
the party hat, bows/ribbons, glasses etc) that have the little pin and are designed
to go into friends hairpieces and animals and then consider what to do with the
the flowers/bugs, the sea creatures, the star with stud holder and the swing
and whether to keep the Friends category at all.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 9, 2020 10:27
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  Bracket - category poorly defined (suggested solution is to rewrite definition)

Response: Like Antenna, here I would support eliminating the category
altogether. There are only 24 parts within and all of them would probably fit
better in other categories.

Bit of a late response, but I would like to add here that "only 24 parts" isn't
the whole story - Bracket is not exactly like other small categories. In actual
inventory volume, this category accounts for approximately as many parts as "Brick,
Arch" or "Brick, Round", and the buying frequency is also comparable. So I just
wanted to add here that while the number of entries is low, it is not entirely
the same as other small categories.

That fact (together with the fact that elimination would probably result in even
more Plate,Modifieds) leads me to prefer keeping it. Possibly moving brackets
without angled studs somewhere else, like Vehicle Base or Cockpit.

Just wanted to add this but I leave the decision up to you guys.
 Author: calebfishn View Messages Posted By calebfishn
 Posted: Aug 9, 2020 20:30
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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calebfishn (1478)

Location:  Canada, Ontario
Member Since Contact Type Status
Feb 17, 2009 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Barbie's Brick Store
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  After the first day of discussion here are the issues identified, sometimes paraphrased,
and my responses:

Antenna Issue: There are currently flags in this category

Response: The 3957* parts with stickers should stay. Part 30322 should
go to Flag and 30322* parts to Flag, Decorated. This would only leave seven
parts in the category. I'm wondering if it would be worth moving those parts
as well and eliminating the Antenna category altogether.

An antenna is an antenna. And it is an antenna because that is how it is most
often used in Lego models. Even if it has a flag attached to it, its an antenna.
I don't see where this simple, conventional, and descriptive definition
causes problems requiring elimination of the category.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 9, 2020 20:52
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
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In Catalog, calebfishn writes:
  […]
An antenna is an antenna. And it is an antenna because that is how it is most
often used in Lego models. Even if it has a flag attached to it, its an antenna.
I don't see where this simple, conventional, and descriptive definition
causes problems requiring elimination of the category.

And if you’ve never seen the part used anywhere and want to find it in the catalogue?
 Author: pcthurman View Messages Posted By pcthurman
 Posted: Aug 12, 2020 01:14
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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pcthurman (696)

Location:  USA, Virginia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 20, 2004 Contact Member Buyer
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In Catalog, calebfishn writes:
  In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  After the first day of discussion here are the issues identified, sometimes paraphrased,
and my responses:

Antenna Issue: There are currently flags in this category

Response: The 3957* parts with stickers should stay. Part 30322 should
go to Flag and 30322* parts to Flag, Decorated. This would only leave seven
parts in the category. I'm wondering if it would be worth moving those parts
as well and eliminating the Antenna category altogether.

An antenna is an antenna. And it is an antenna because that is how it is most
often used in Lego models. Even if it has a flag attached to it, its an antenna.
I don't see where this simple, conventional, and descriptive definition
causes problems requiring elimination of the category.

An antenna 1x4 is a "Bar" with a stud holder on 1 end regardless of it's
most common use as an antenna. It is used as a door hinge, flag holder, flag
pole, trap placeholder, etc..

A whip antenna is mainly used on vehicles and almost exclusively as an antenna,

Cass T
 Author: WoutR View Messages Posted By WoutR
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 03:58
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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WoutR (720)

Location:  Netherlands, Zuid-Holland
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I would not merge hinge and turntable. They allow for a different
type of movement.

To make sense, the new category would have to be named "hinge and turntable",
and in that case: what would the change accomplish?
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 04:43
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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yorbrick (781)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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Store: Yorbricks
In Catalog, WoutR writes:
  I would not merge hinge and turntable. They allow for a different
type of movement.

To make sense, the new category would have to be named "hinge and turntable",
and in that case: what would the change accomplish?

As long as they have the words hinge and turntable used systematically it is
not too bad, as that is probably the first filter I'd want to use in that
category. But I agree, it does seem a bit pointless, in combining quite different
objects. I understand there is not that many turntables, and it could possibly
be even smaller as Ninjago spinners are not really turntables.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 05:20
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
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Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, WoutR writes:
  I would not merge hinge and turntable. They allow for a different
type of movement.

To make sense, the new category would have to be named "hinge and turntable",
and in that case: what would the change accomplish?

One of the main problems is the long list of categories, and the lack of balance
of importance of the categories. Turntable is very small.

In my own webshop, I have "hinge & turntable", "string & hook", "support & crane"
and such. That makes things significantly more browseable.
 Author: pcthurman View Messages Posted By pcthurman
 Posted: Aug 12, 2020 01:16
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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pcthurman (696)

Location:  USA, Virginia
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In Catalog, WoutR writes:
  I would not merge hinge and turntable. They allow for a different
type of movement.

To make sense, the new category would have to be named "hinge and turntable",
and in that case: what would the change accomplish?

+1
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 12, 2020 02:14
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Responses
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
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Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, pcthurman writes:
  In Catalog, WoutR writes:
  I would not merge hinge and turntable. They allow for a different
type of movement.

To make sense, the new category would have to be named "hinge and turntable",
and in that case: what would the change accomplish?

+1

I replied, https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1215228
 Author: bje View Messages Posted By bje
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 17:09
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Animal Accessories
 Viewed: 45 times
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bje (1420)

Location:  South Africa, Western Cape
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Store: JE Bricks
From: https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1213913

Please consider the following:

Category: Animal Accessories:
Move to cloth:
 
Part No: belblank  Name: Belville Horse Blanket, Cloth
* 
belblank Belville Horse Blanket, Cloth
Parts: Animal, Accessory {Bright Green}
 
Part No: 47688  Name: Belville Horse Blanket, Cloth 11 x 11 with Velcro Closure
* 
47688 Belville Horse Blanket, Cloth 11 x 11 with Velcro Closure
Parts: Animal, Accessory {Blue}
 
Part No: 58321  Name: Belville Horse Blanket, Cloth Non-Opening, with White Glitter Stars Pattern
* 
58321 Belville Horse Blanket, Cloth Non-Opening, with White Glitter Stars Pattern
Parts: Animal, Accessory {Dark Purple}
 
Part No: ScalaBlank  Name: Scala Horse Blanket
* 
ScalaBlank Scala Horse Blanket
Parts: Animal, Accessory {Medium Lime}

Move to Cone
 
Part No: 89993  Name: Piggy Bank Coin Plug
* 
89993 Piggy Bank Coin Plug
Parts: Animal, Accessory {Medium Nougat}

Move to Minifigure, Headgear
 
Part No: 89992  Name: Pig Bowler Hat
* 
89992 Pig Bowler Hat
Parts: Animal, Accessory {Black}

Move to Vehicle, Base:
 
Part No: 33202  Name: Belville Horse Carriage Base
* 
33202 Belville Horse Carriage Base
Parts: Animal, Accessory {White}
33202pb*

Leashes:
Not sure if
 
Part No: xLeash  Name: Dog Leash Elastic with Gem
* 
xLeash Dog Leash Elastic with Gem
Parts: Animal, Accessory {Yellow}
must move to Belville or if
 
Part No: xleash3  Name: Dog Leash Satin
* 
xleash3 Dog Leash Satin
Parts: Belville {Red}
and
 
Part No: scl001  Name: Scala Dog Leash
* 
scl001 Scala Dog Leash
Parts: Scala {Yellow}
must move to Animal, Accessory.

Bridles:
Move
 
Part No: Scalabridle  Name: Scala Horse Bridle
* 
Scalabridle Scala Horse Bridle
Parts: Scala {Brown}
to Animal, Accessory so as to have all bridles under one
category, also because
 
Part No: Scalabridlec01  Name: Scala Horse Bridle with Same Color Scala Horse Rein (Scalabridle / ScalaRein)
* 
Scalabridlec01 (Inv) Scala Horse Bridle with Same Color Scala Horse Rein (Scalabridle / ScalaRein)
Parts: Animal, Accessory {Brown}
is already in category Animal, Accessory


Change the definition of Animal Accessory to exclude blankets.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 19:37
 Subject: Re: Moving Things - Update 1
 Viewed: 51 times
 Topic: Catalog
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
There's an awful lot of things to consider, but I've worked for several
hours on this and have made a little progress. First, this page is updated with
some of your suggestions mixed with a few of my own:

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2487

Second, this page has been updated close to the top with an explanation of how
to categorize parts based on a combination of how things were done in the past
with how things probably should be done:

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=1568

Category definitions were not updated (yet). Let me know if you see anything
wrong with either page or have suggestions for improvements.
 Author: normann1974 View Messages Posted By normann1974
 Posted: Aug 2, 2020 22:00
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
 Viewed: 37 times
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normann1974 (645)

Location:  Denmark
Member Since Contact Type Status
Oct 4, 2016 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Normann1974
I have a few notes regarding plates and tiles with changes to the number or
position of studs. Currently, such parts are categorized as either "Plate, Modified",
"Tile, Round" or "Tile, Modified" (this list may be not be complete). I would
very much like to see them in the same category and with a similar naming.

Example:

 
Part No: 87580  Name: Plate, Modified 2 x 2 with Groove and 1 Stud in Center (Jumper)
* 
87580 Plate, Modified 2 x 2 with Groove and 1 Stud in Center (Jumper)
Parts: Plate, Modified {Blue}
is categorized as "Plate, Modified".

 
Part No: 18674  Name: Tile, Round 2 x 2 with Open Stud
* 
18674 Tile, Round 2 x 2 with Open Stud
Parts: Tile, Round {Olive Green}
is categorized as "Tile, Round".

Both of these parts expose the same behavior as
 
Part No: 3794  Name: Plate, Modified 1 x 2 with 1 Stud, Jumper (Undetermined Bottom Type)
* 
3794 Plate, Modified 1 x 2 with 1 Stud, Jumper (Undetermined Bottom Type)
Parts: Plate, Modified {White}
because they all offset
their stud by 1/2L in one or more dimensions, i.e. in my opinion they are all
"jumpers". The only difference between the first two parts above is their basic
shape, so why are some jumpers plates and other jumpers tiles?

All the above mentioned parts have fewer studs that their basic plate versions.
As such, they could be viewed as modified plates. On the other hand, basic plates
have solid studs. These parts have hollow studs, so I believe they could be also
(and should be) considered as modified tiles.

Opinions are expected.

/Jan
 Author: jonwil View Messages Posted By jonwil
 Posted: Aug 3, 2020 02:55
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
 Viewed: 38 times
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jonwil (67)

Location:  Australia, Queensland
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jul 9, 2002 Member Does Not Allow Contact Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
LEGO considers all the parts with studs on them (including the 4x4 with studs
on one edge and the larger parts with studs on 3 edges) as plates.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 3, 2020 04:22
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
 Viewed: 34 times
 Topic: Catalog
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yorbrick (781)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Yorbricks
In Catalog, jonwil writes:
  LEGO considers all the parts with studs on them (including the 4x4 with studs
on one edge and the larger parts with studs on 3 edges) as plates.

It depends where you look.

On bricks and pieces, tiles and plates are classed as "bricks, special".

On pick a brick, plates are classed as "plates" and tiles are classed as ...
also "plates". And modified tiles and plates, along with a lot of hinges, brackets
and so on are classed as "plates, special".

I don't think bricklink should care how LEGO classes parts, as that will
remove much of the useful functionality from bricklink.
 Author: BulbaNerd4000 View Messages Posted By BulbaNerd4000
 Posted: Aug 3, 2020 10:18
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things
 Viewed: 36 times
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BulbaNerd4000 (3)

Location:  USA, Alabama
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 27, 2019 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  Okay, I won't promise anything will happen.

But this is the plan:

1. I'm opening discussion right now, in this thread, on changes in
item type and and category for any items wrongly categorized. I expect discussion
will probably focus on parts and last around two weeks.

2. I'll post all changes deemed worth making on this page:
https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2487

3. The catalog team will discuss internally during the month of September.
This will give everyone time to prepare for item movements. I'll post public
updates/reminders occasionally during August and September.

4. The actual changes will be made on October 1st, 2020. A record of
the changes will be retained for reference purposes for two years on the page
linked to above.


Change the cars, see this post here:
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1208323
  I know some of you are excited about this. It's the first time BrickLink
has been widely open to correcting some longstanding categorization issues.
I'm excited, too. I will fully read and carefully consider every post made
in this thread. To help me out, please:

1. Snip replies (remove extraneous content before replying).
2. Stay on point (don't post digressions).
3. Keep everything in this one thread.
4. Don't expect miracles. Some ideas may have to be added to the
roadmap as separate projects.
5. Try to limit complaints. Or, if you believe everything is already
properly categorized and don't like change, complain loudly and often. Site
management will be watching.

Thanks to everyone for the input you're about to provide. I don't know
how this will go, but I expect it to be interesting.
 Author: jennnifer View Messages Posted By jennnifer
 Posted: Aug 9, 2020 15:26
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified
 Viewed: 44 times
 Topic: Catalog
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jennnifer (2592)

Location:  USA, Illinois
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 8, 2009 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Old Grey Bricks
Here is my idea for Brick, Modified:

Current definition: For bricks without slopes or curves that include an attachment
or modification.


Suggested change: For bricks with vertical sides that include an attachment
or modification.


This is a major change for this catch-all category. I am open to hearing alternate
ideas and discussions that will help lend clarification. (My definition is specific
about vertical sides to allow the logs 30136 and 30137 to remain in this category.)

The following parts would potentially be moved to Curved, Slope:

 
Part No: 49307  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 1 x 2/3 No Studs, Curved Top
* 
49307 Brick, Modified 1 x 1 x 2/3 No Studs, Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Light Bluish Gray}
 
Part No: 6091  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
6091 Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Medium Blue}
 
Part No: 37352  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 1 No Studs, Curved Top
* 
37352 Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 1 No Studs, Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Blue}
 
Part No: 47458  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 2/3 No Studs, Wing End
* 
47458 Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 2/3 No Studs, Wing End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Bright Pink}
 
Part No: 33243  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 3 x 2 with Curved Top
* 
33243 Brick, Modified 1 x 3 x 2 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Lavender}
 
Part No: 40996  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 4 with Sloped Ends and 2 Top Studs
* 
40996 Brick, Modified 1 x 4 with Sloped Ends and 2 Top Studs
Parts: Brick, Modified {White}
 
Part No: 6191  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 4 x 1 1/3 No Studs, Curved Top
* 
6191 Brick, Modified 1 x 4 x 1 1/3 No Studs, Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Pink}
 
Part No: 65734  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 4 x 2 2/3 with Curved Top
* 
65734 Brick, Modified 1 x 4 x 2 2/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Trans-Clear}
 
Part No: 30165  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 Curved Top with 2 Top Studs
* 
30165 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 Curved Top with 2 Top Studs
Parts: Brick, Modified {White}
 
Part No: 47457  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
* 
47457 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Purple}
 
Part No: 41855  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Lip End
* 
41855 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Lip End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Medium Blue}
 
Part No: 6215  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 3 with Curved Top
* 
6215 Brick, Modified 2 x 3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Red}
 
Part No: 47456  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 3 x 2/3 Two Studs, Wing End
* 
47456 Brick, Modified 2 x 3 x 2/3 Two Studs, Wing End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Speckle Black-Copper}
 
Part No: 6192  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 No Studs, Curved Top
* 
6192 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 No Studs, Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Lime}
 
Part No: 6081  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
6081 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Green}
 
Part No: 4744  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 2 Double Curved Top
* 
4744 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 2 Double Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Light Gray}
 
Part No: 6216  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 2 No Studs, Triple Curved Top
* 
6216 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 2 No Studs, Triple Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {White}
 
Part No: 30075  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 6 x 3 Triple Curved Bottom
* 
30075 Brick, Modified 2 x 6 x 3 Triple Curved Bottom
Parts: Brick, Modified {Red}
 
Part No: 6214  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 8 x 4 with Triple Curved Ends
* 
6214 Brick, Modified 2 x 8 x 4 with Triple Curved Ends
Parts: Brick, Modified {Green}
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 9, 2020 16:01
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified
 Viewed: 32 times
 Topic: Catalog
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  Here is my idea for Brick, Modified:

Current definition: For bricks without slopes or curves that include an attachment
or modification.


Suggested change: For bricks with vertical sides that include an attachment
or modification.


This is a major change for this catch-all category. I am open to hearing alternate
ideas and discussions that will help lend clarification. (My definition is specific
about vertical sides to allow the logs 30136 and 30137 to remain in this category.)

The following parts would potentially be moved to Curved, Slope:

 
Part No: 49307  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 1 x 2/3 No Studs, Curved Top
* 
49307 Brick, Modified 1 x 1 x 2/3 No Studs, Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Light Bluish Gray}
 
Part No: 6091  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
6091 Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Medium Blue}
 
Part No: 37352  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 1 No Studs, Curved Top
* 
37352 Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 1 No Studs, Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Blue}
 
Part No: 47458  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 2/3 No Studs, Wing End
* 
47458 Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 2/3 No Studs, Wing End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Bright Pink}
 
Part No: 33243  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 3 x 2 with Curved Top
* 
33243 Brick, Modified 1 x 3 x 2 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Lavender}
 
Part No: 40996  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 4 with Sloped Ends and 2 Top Studs
* 
40996 Brick, Modified 1 x 4 with Sloped Ends and 2 Top Studs
Parts: Brick, Modified {White}
 
Part No: 6191  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 4 x 1 1/3 No Studs, Curved Top
* 
6191 Brick, Modified 1 x 4 x 1 1/3 No Studs, Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Pink}
 
Part No: 65734  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 4 x 2 2/3 with Curved Top
* 
65734 Brick, Modified 1 x 4 x 2 2/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Trans-Clear}
 
Part No: 30165  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 Curved Top with 2 Top Studs
* 
30165 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 Curved Top with 2 Top Studs
Parts: Brick, Modified {White}
 
Part No: 47457  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
* 
47457 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Purple}
 
Part No: 41855  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Lip End
* 
41855 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Lip End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Medium Blue}
 
Part No: 6215  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 3 with Curved Top
* 
6215 Brick, Modified 2 x 3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Red}
 
Part No: 47456  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 3 x 2/3 Two Studs, Wing End
* 
47456 Brick, Modified 2 x 3 x 2/3 Two Studs, Wing End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Speckle Black-Copper}
 
Part No: 6192  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 No Studs, Curved Top
* 
6192 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 No Studs, Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Lime}
 
Part No: 6081  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
6081 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Green}
 
Part No: 4744  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 2 Double Curved Top
* 
4744 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 2 Double Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Light Gray}
 
Part No: 6216  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 2 No Studs, Triple Curved Top
* 
6216 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 2 No Studs, Triple Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {White}
 
Part No: 30075  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 6 x 3 Triple Curved Bottom
* 
30075 Brick, Modified 2 x 6 x 3 Triple Curved Bottom
Parts: Brick, Modified {Red}
 
Part No: 6214  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 8 x 4 with Triple Curved Ends
* 
6214 Brick, Modified 2 x 8 x 4 with Triple Curved Ends
Parts: Brick, Modified {Green}

No, please don't move items with a half or quarter circle shape to Slope.
Slope only has angled irregular curves. Parts with a part of a circle can be
combined with Brick,Rounds with circles with a matching radius. Please let's
keep rounded parts and sloping parts separate.
 Author: jennnifer View Messages Posted By jennnifer
 Posted: Aug 9, 2020 18:41
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified
 Viewed: 30 times
 Topic: Catalog
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jennnifer (2592)

Location:  USA, Illinois
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 8, 2009 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Old Grey Bricks
In Catalog, Teup writes:

  No, please don't move items with a half or quarter circle shape to Slope.
Slope only has angled irregular curves. Parts with a part of a circle can be
combined with Brick,Rounds with circles with a matching radius. Please let's
keep rounded parts and sloping parts separate.

I see a lot of difficulty in putting these parts in Brick, Round as it would
really muddy up its definition. I could understand creating another category
for the parts with specifically spherical or circular curved sides as opposed
to the elliptical curves we are used to in Slope, Curved. However, there are
parts in Slope, Curved now that appear to me to have 'round' curves.


Will leave this one up the admins!

Thanks,
Jen
 
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 9, 2020 19:04
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified
 Viewed: 35 times
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  In Catalog, Teup writes:

  No, please don't move items with a half or quarter circle shape to Slope.
Slope only has angled irregular curves. Parts with a part of a circle can be
combined with Brick,Rounds with circles with a matching radius. Please let's
keep rounded parts and sloping parts separate.

I see a lot of difficulty in putting these parts in Brick, Round as it would
really muddy up its definition. I could understand creating another category
for the parts with specifically spherical or circular curved sides as opposed
to the elliptical curves we are used to in Slope, Curved. However, there are
parts in Slope, Curved now that appear to me to have 'round' curves.


Will leave this one up the admins!

Thanks,
Jen

Well, if you SNOT a round 2x2 brick or round 4x4 brick on its side, the roundings
match those of these rounded Bricks and rounded Brick,Arches. That is not true
for any Slope,Curved.

Hmm, I don't feel like it would muddy up the definition. Of the part family
that SylvainLS outlined here:

https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1214985

some are already in Brick, Round. I understand it's because of their rounded
footprint. But I think that whole family makes intuitive sense as belonging together,
since their curves fit together and they frequently appear together. So I'd
really encourage extending the definition to rounded tops so as to keep them
together.

An alternative could be new Brick subcategory to contain the parts that have
rounded sides in the vertical dimension.

I just really feel like "Slopes" in their core definition need an angled side.
These rounded bricks start perfectly horizontal and end perfectly vertical, which
makes it hard for me to see how it would be a slope. Consider this picture:
 
 Author: qwertyboy View Messages Posted By qwertyboy
 Posted: Aug 9, 2020 19:51
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified
 Viewed: 26 times
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qwertyboy (5499)

Location:  Canada, Alberta
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 9, 2013 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Maple Bricks
In Catalog, Teup writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  In Catalog, Teup writes:

  No, please don't move items with a half or quarter circle shape to Slope.
Slope only has angled irregular curves. Parts with a part of a circle can be
combined with Brick,Rounds with circles with a matching radius. Please let's
keep rounded parts and sloping parts separate.

I see a lot of difficulty in putting these parts in Brick, Round as it would
really muddy up its definition. I could understand creating another category
for the parts with specifically spherical or circular curved sides as opposed
to the elliptical curves we are used to in Slope, Curved. However, there are
parts in Slope, Curved now that appear to me to have 'round' curves.


Will leave this one up the admins!

Thanks,
Jen

Well, if you SNOT a round 2x2 brick or round 4x4 brick on its side, the roundings
match those of these rounded Bricks and rounded Brick,Arches. That is not true
for any Slope,Curved.

Hmm, I don't feel like it would muddy up the definition. Of the part family
that SylvainLS outlined here:

https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1214985

some are already in Brick, Round. I understand it's because of their rounded
footprint. But I think that whole family makes intuitive sense as belonging together,
since their curves fit together and they frequently appear together. So I'd
really encourage extending the definition to rounded tops so as to keep them
together.

An alternative could be new Brick subcategory to contain the parts that have
rounded sides in the vertical dimension.

I just really feel like "Slopes" in their core definition need an angled side.
These rounded bricks start perfectly horizontal and end perfectly vertical, which
makes it hard for me to see how it would be a slope. Consider this picture:

To illustrate what you are saying, the green line on the slope should be horizontally
on top.

Niek.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 13:20
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified
 Viewed: 24 times
 Topic: Catalog
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  Here is my idea for Brick, Modified:

Current definition: For bricks without slopes or curves that include an attachment
or modification.


Suggested change: For bricks with vertical sides that include an attachment
or modification.


Just a quick note on this: the definition system works by combining some definitions.
This was done to save space. So the current brick, Modified definition reads
(emphasis added):

For bricks without slopes or curves that include an attachment or modification.

The definition of brick is assumed to be included. It is:

For basic and unmodified LEGO system building bricks with one or more top
studs and straight sides.


So the full definition of Brick, Modified is, in reality:

For basic and unmodified LEGO system building bricks with one or more top
studs and straight sides without slopes or curves that include an attachment
or modification.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 13:45
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified
 Viewed: 20 times
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  […]
Just a quick note on this: the definition system works by combining some definitions.
This was done to save space. So the current brick, Modified definition reads
(emphasis added):

For bricks without slopes or curves that include an attachment or modification.

The definition of brick is assumed to be included. It is:

For basic and unmodified LEGO system building bricks with one or more top
studs and straight sides.


So the full definition of Brick, Modified is, in reality:

For basic and unmodified LEGO system building bricks with one or more top
studs and straight sides without slopes or curves that include an attachment
or modification.


IOW, the categories are logically hierarchical but stored and presented as a
list.

IOOW, as categories can’t be structured hierarchically, we make do by showing
their hierachy in their names.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 16:17
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified
 Viewed: 28 times
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yorbrick (781)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Yorbricks
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  Here is my idea for Brick, Modified:

Current definition: For bricks without slopes or curves that include an attachment
or modification.


Suggested change: For bricks with vertical sides that include an attachment
or modification.


Just a quick note on this: the definition system works by combining some definitions.
This was done to save space. So the current brick, Modified definition reads
(emphasis added):

For bricks without slopes or curves that include an attachment or modification.

The definition of brick is assumed to be included. It is:

For basic and unmodified LEGO system building bricks with one or more top
studs and straight sides.


So the full definition of Brick, Modified is, in reality:

For basic and unmodified LEGO system building bricks with one or more top
studs and straight sides without slopes or curves that include an attachment
or modification.


 
Part No: 47457  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
* 
47457 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Purple}

What will this be classified as?

It cannot be a modified brick due to the curve, it isn't a wedge, it doesn't
fit in slopes...

I thought "modified brick" was essentially everything that doesn't fit elsewhere.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 17:03
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  […]
 
Part No: 47457  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
* 
47457 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Purple}

What will this be classified as?

It cannot be a modified brick due to the curve, it isn't a wedge, it doesn't
fit in slopes...

Not even in curved slopes?

After all,
 
Part No: 4861  Name: Slope 45 3 x 4 Double / 33
* 
4861 Slope 45 3 x 4 Double / 33
Parts: Slope {Dark Blue}
is a slope.  The differences with this one is that it’s 2x2 and curved.


And, looking at theses slopes, I was reminded that
 
Part No: 2876  Name: Slope 45 6 x 6 Double / 33 (Train Roof)
* 
2876 Slope 45 6 x 6 Double / 33 (Train Roof)
Parts: Slope {White}
is a slope, so
 
Part No: 45677  Name: Wedge 4 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
45677 Wedge 4 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Orange}
 
Part No: 93604  Name: Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
93604 Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Medium Blue}
could be slopes too.  That they are only 2 plates high shouldn’t be a problem
as
 
Part No: 15068  Name: Slope, Curved 2 x 2
* 
15068 Slope, Curved 2 x 2
Parts: Slope, Curved {Sand Green}
is 2 plates high too.


  I thought "modified brick" was essentially everything that doesn't fit elsewhere.

Yep, but that doesn’t prevent us from trying to force-fit them elsewhere first
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 17:14
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
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Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  […]
 
Part No: 47457  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
* 
47457 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Purple}

What will this be classified as?

It cannot be a modified brick due to the curve, it isn't a wedge, it doesn't
fit in slopes...

Not even in curved slopes?

After all,
 
Part No: 4861  Name: Slope 45 3 x 4 Double / 33
* 
4861 Slope 45 3 x 4 Double / 33
Parts: Slope {Dark Blue}
is a slope.  The differences with this one is that it’s 2x2 and curved.

Yep, rectangular footprint with 3 sloping sides - still a slope.

  
And, looking at theses slopes, I was reminded that
 
Part No: 2876  Name: Slope 45 6 x 6 Double / 33 (Train Roof)
* 
2876 Slope 45 6 x 6 Double / 33 (Train Roof)
Parts: Slope {White}
is a slope, so

Not anymore. It will moved to Wedge, which is correct, because it is tapered
/ has a non-rectangular footprint.

  
 
Part No: 45677  Name: Wedge 4 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
45677 Wedge 4 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Orange}
 
Part No: 93604  Name: Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
93604 Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Medium Blue}
could be (...)

...Wedges too


As for that "modified brick", it has a rectangular footprint too, so I could
see it in Slope,Curved. Anyway, this will be a part nobody is going to truly
expect to find in one category and be gobsmacked if it isn't there, so we
might as well just put it somewhere
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 17:20
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
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In Catalog, Teup writes:
  […]
Not anymore. It will moved to Wedge, which is correct, because it is tapered
/ has a non-rectangular footprint.

Dang, I forgot.
Needing to know what is where and why was already difficult, now we also need
to know what will be moved and why, or we’ll go in circles like I just did
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 11, 2020 22:28
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  
 
Part No: 47457  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
* 
47457 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Purple}

What will this be classified as?

I believe that fits the definitions of Slope, Curved.
 Author: jennnifer View Messages Posted By jennnifer
 Posted: Aug 9, 2020 15:36
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
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jennnifer (2592)

Location:  USA, Illinois
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 8, 2009 Contact Member Seller
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Store Closed Store: Old Grey Bricks
Here is my idea for Brick, Modified:

Current definition: For bricks without slopes or curves that include an attachment
or modification.


Suggested change: For bricks with vertical sides that include an attachment
or modification.


The following parts would potentially be moved to clean up this category:

 
Part No: 15411  Name: Brick, Modified 1 x 1 with Stud on Side and Conductive Element on Opposite Side (AppBrick)
* 
15411 Brick, Modified 1 x 1 with Stud on Side and Conductive Element on Opposite Side (AppBrick)
Parts: Brick, Modified {Black}
to Electronics
 
Part No: 30603  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 No Studs, Sloped with 6 Side Pistons Raised
* 
30603 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 No Studs, Sloped with 6 Side Pistons Raised
Parts: Brick, Modified {Black}
 
Part No: 30601  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 No Studs, Sloped with Angled Side Block Extensions
* 
30601 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 No Studs, Sloped with Angled Side Block Extensions
Parts: Brick, Modified {Blue}
to Slope
 
Part No: x351  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 Racer Driver No Head
* 
x351 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 Racer Driver No Head
Parts: Brick, Modified {Black}
to Minifigure, Body Part
 
Part No: 67810  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
67810 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Reddish Brown}
to Wedge
 
Part No: 52038  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 - 1 x 4 with 2 Recessed Studs and Thick Side Arches
* 
52038 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 - 1 x 4 with 2 Recessed Studs and Thick Side Arches
Parts: Brick, Modified {Light Bluish Gray}
 
Part No: 14520  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 - 1 x 4 with 2 Recessed Studs and Thin Side Arches
* 
14520 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 - 1 x 4 with 2 Recessed Studs and Thin Side Arches
Parts: Brick, Modified {Red}
to Vehicle, Mudguard, or Plate, Modified
 
Part No: 49523  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 with Heavily Curved Ends, Shoulder Pad Design with Two Studs on the Outside
* 
49523 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 with Heavily Curved Ends, Shoulder Pad Design with Two Studs on the Outside
Parts: Brick, Modified {Light Bluish Gray}
to Large Figure Part
 
Part No: 18585  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 with Pin Holes and Flywheel Socket (Ninjago Airjitzu Flyer Handle)
* 
18585 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 with Pin Holes and Flywheel Socket (Ninjago Airjitzu Flyer Handle)
Parts: Brick, Modified {Black}
to Projectile Launcher
 
Part No: 6061  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 2 with Holes on Sides
* 
6061 Brick, Modified 2 x 4 x 2 with Holes on Sides
Parts: Brick, Modified {White}
 
Part No: 45403c01  Name: Brick, Modified 5 x 12 with Two 1 x 2 Cutouts, 1 Hole and 2 Fixed Rotatable Friction Pins on Side
* 
45403c01 Brick, Modified 5 x 12 with Two 1 x 2 Cutouts, 1 Hole and 2 Fixed Rotatable Friction Pins on Side
Parts: Brick, Modified {Light Gray}
 
Part No: 45403  Name: Brick, Modified 5 x 12 with Two 1 x 2 Cutouts, 3 Holes on Side
* 
45403 Brick, Modified 5 x 12 with Two 1 x 2 Cutouts, 3 Holes on Side
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Gray}
 
Part No: 30645  Name: Brick, Modified 12 x 12 Base
* 
30645 Brick, Modified 12 x 12 Base
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Gray}
 
Part No: 52040  Name: Brick, Modified 12 x 12 with 3 Pin Holes on each Side and Axle Holes in Corners
* 
52040 Brick, Modified 12 x 12 with 3 Pin Holes on each Side and Axle Holes in Corners
Parts: Brick, Modified {Light Bluish Gray}
 
Part No: 47976c01  Name: Brick, Modified 12 x 12 with 3 Pin Holes on each Side and Peg at each Corner
* 
47976c01 Brick, Modified 12 x 12 with 3 Pin Holes on each Side and Peg at each Corner
Parts: Brick, Modified {Tan}
 
Part No: 47116  Name: Brick, Modified 12 x 24 with Peg at each Corner
* 
47116 Brick, Modified 12 x 24 with Peg at each Corner
Parts: Brick, Modified {Sand Blue}
(I don't know if 47116 has side holes or not)

to Technic, Brick (See previous discussion about defining Technic, Brick as strictly
having side holes for Technic Axle or Pin. A reciprocal amount of Technic, Bricks
would head this way.
 
Part No: 6161  Name: Brick, Modified 24 x 24 without 12 x 12 Quarter Circle
* 
6161 Brick, Modified 24 x 24 without 12 x 12 Quarter Circle
Parts: Brick, Modified {Light Yellow}
 
Part No: 47115  Name: Brick, Modified 24 x 24 without 12 x 12 Quarter Circle, with Peg at each Corner
* 
47115 Brick, Modified 24 x 24 without 12 x 12 Quarter Circle, with Peg at each Corner
Parts: Brick, Modified {Bright Light Yellow}
potentially to Brick, Round
 
Part No: 30181  Name: Brick, Modified 4 x 10 with Cut Corners
* 
30181 Brick, Modified 4 x 10 with Cut Corners
Parts: Brick, Modified {Blue}
 
Part No: 87620  Name: Brick, Modified Facet 2 x 2
* 
87620 Brick, Modified Facet 2 x 2
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Bluish Gray}
 
Part No: 2462  Name: Brick, Modified Facet 3 x 3
* 
2462 Brick, Modified Facet 3 x 3
Parts: Brick, Modified {White}
 
Part No: 2464  Name: Brick, Modified Facet 3 x 3 x 2 Bottom
* 
2464 Brick, Modified Facet 3 x 3 x 2 Bottom
Parts: Brick, Modified {White}
 
Part No: 2463  Name: Brick, Modified Facet 3 x 3 x 2 Top
* 
2463 Brick, Modified Facet 3 x 3 x 2 Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {White}
 
Part No: 14413  Name: Brick, Modified Facet 4 x 4
* 
14413 Brick, Modified Facet 4 x 4
Parts: Brick, Modified {Red}
 
Part No: 6107  Name: Brick, Modified Facet 5 x 5
* 
6107 Brick, Modified Facet 5 x 5
Parts: Brick, Modified {Light Gray}
potentially to Wedge
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 9, 2020 16:00
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  […]
 
Part No: 67810  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
67810 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Reddish Brown}
to Wedge

I get the rationale: if 6091 is a slope, this one is a “slope on more than one
side,” a.k.a. a wedge.
But it bothers me somehow…
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 9, 2020 18:43
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
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Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  […]
 
Part No: 67810  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
67810 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Reddish Brown}
to Wedge

I get the rationale: if 6091 is a slope, this one is a “slope on more than one
side,” a.k.a. a wedge.
But it bothers me somehow…

It's a bad idea.. there are never rounded parts in Wedge. It's clearly
part of the family of bricks that have a rounded side.. If you are going to put
a slope in the same category as its matching double convex slope, you should
logically also put a rounded part in the same category as its matching rounded
corner.

Please keep curved parts in Slope Curved and Wedge, and keep rounded parts together,
possibly in Brick,Round.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 00:52
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
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yorbrick (781)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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Store: Yorbricks
In Catalog, Teup writes:
  In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  […]
 
Part No: 67810  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
67810 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Reddish Brown}
to Wedge

I get the rationale: if 6091 is a slope, this one is a “slope on more than one
side,” a.k.a. a wedge.
But it bothers me somehow…

It's a bad idea.. there are never rounded parts in Wedge
. It's clearly
part of the family of bricks that have a rounded side.. If you are going to put
a slope in the same category as its matching double convex slope, you should
logically also put a rounded part in the same category as its matching rounded
corner.


That depends on how you define rounded... For example:
 
Part No: 93604  Name: Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
93604 Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Medium Blue}

While I agree it would be good if this goes in with similar curved parts that
curve in one direction, like
 
Part No: 3045  Name: Slope 45 2 x 2 Double Convex
* 
3045 Slope 45 2 x 2 Double Convex
Parts: Slope {Tan}
goes with slopes.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 04:12
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  In Catalog, Teup writes:
  In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  […]
 
Part No: 67810  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
67810 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Reddish Brown}
to Wedge

I get the rationale: if 6091 is a slope, this one is a “slope on more than one
side,” a.k.a. a wedge.
But it bothers me somehow…

It's a bad idea.. there are never rounded parts in Wedge
. It's clearly
part of the family of bricks that have a rounded side.. If you are going to put
a slope in the same category as its matching double convex slope, you should
logically also put a rounded part in the same category as its matching rounded
corner.


That depends on how you define rounded... For example:
 
Part No: 93604  Name: Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
93604 Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Medium Blue}

While I agree it would be good if this goes in with similar curved parts that
curve in one direction, like
 
Part No: 3045  Name: Slope 45 2 x 2 Double Convex
* 
3045 Slope 45 2 x 2 Double Convex
Parts: Slope {Tan}
goes with slopes.

Hmm that part is still very clearly a wedge to me... Again it has an irregular
angled slope. It does not start horizontally and end vertically, like the quarter
circle roundings of the rounded bricks. You can consider the front of the base
rounded, but it is not a semicircle. It still ends at irregular sloping angles
on either side. So even with that wedge, the way I see it there's a huge
gap between slopes/wedges and these rounded bricks that aways end on straight
angles in every dimension.
 
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 04:52
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
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yorbrick (781)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
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Store: Yorbricks
In Catalog, Teup writes:
  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  In Catalog, Teup writes:
  In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  […]
 
Part No: 67810  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
67810 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Reddish Brown}
to Wedge

I get the rationale: if 6091 is a slope, this one is a “slope on more than one
side,” a.k.a. a wedge.
But it bothers me somehow…

It's a bad idea.. there are never rounded parts in Wedge
. It's clearly
part of the family of bricks that have a rounded side.. If you are going to put
a slope in the same category as its matching double convex slope, you should
logically also put a rounded part in the same category as its matching rounded
corner.


That depends on how you define rounded... For example:
 
Part No: 93604  Name: Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
93604 Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Medium Blue}

While I agree it would be good if this goes in with similar curved parts that
curve in one direction, like
 
Part No: 3045  Name: Slope 45 2 x 2 Double Convex
* 
3045 Slope 45 2 x 2 Double Convex
Parts: Slope {Tan}
goes with slopes.

Hmm that part is still very clearly a wedge to me... Again it has an irregular
angled slope. It does not start horizontally and end vertically, like the quarter
circle roundings of the rounded bricks. You can consider the front of the base
rounded, but it is not a semicircle. It still ends at irregular sloping angles
on either side. So even with that wedge, the way I see it there's a huge
gap between slopes/wedges and these rounded bricks that aways end on straight
angles in every dimension.

Why the need to start and end horizontally though? After all, many curved slopes,
including extremes such as this:

 
Part No: 85970  Name: Slope, Curved 10 x 1
* 
85970 Slope, Curved 10 x 1
Parts: Slope, Curved {Dark Blue}

are clearly not semicircular, nor do they necessarily have both vertical and
horizontal extremes.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 05:17
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  In Catalog, Teup writes:
  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  In Catalog, Teup writes:
  In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  […]
 
Part No: 67810  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
67810 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Reddish Brown}
to Wedge

I get the rationale: if 6091 is a slope, this one is a “slope on more than one
side,” a.k.a. a wedge.
But it bothers me somehow…

It's a bad idea.. there are never rounded parts in Wedge
. It's clearly
part of the family of bricks that have a rounded side.. If you are going to put
a slope in the same category as its matching double convex slope, you should
logically also put a rounded part in the same category as its matching rounded
corner.


That depends on how you define rounded... For example:
 
Part No: 93604  Name: Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
93604 Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Medium Blue}

While I agree it would be good if this goes in with similar curved parts that
curve in one direction, like
 
Part No: 3045  Name: Slope 45 2 x 2 Double Convex
* 
3045 Slope 45 2 x 2 Double Convex
Parts: Slope {Tan}
goes with slopes.

Hmm that part is still very clearly a wedge to me... Again it has an irregular
angled slope. It does not start horizontally and end vertically, like the quarter
circle roundings of the rounded bricks. You can consider the front of the base
rounded, but it is not a semicircle. It still ends at irregular sloping angles
on either side. So even with that wedge, the way I see it there's a huge
gap between slopes/wedges and these rounded bricks that aways end on straight
angles in every dimension.

Why the need to start and end horizontally though? After all, many curved slopes,
including extremes such as this:

 
Part No: 85970  Name: Slope, Curved 10 x 1
* 
85970 Slope, Curved 10 x 1
Parts: Slope, Curved {Dark Blue}

are clearly not semicircular, nor do they necessarily have both vertical and
horizontal extremes.

Yes, that's why they're slopes and not rounded bricks. To me these two
things are conceptually really different.

If it would make no difference whether a part is rounded or has an angled curve,
then that would mean that macaroni bricks should be in Wedge as well.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 06:09
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
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yorbrick (781)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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Store: Yorbricks
  Yes, that's why they're slopes and not rounded bricks. To me these two
things are conceptually really different.

If it would make no difference whether a part is rounded or has an angled curve,
then that would mean that macaroni bricks should be in Wedge as well.


Isn't part of the point of this to get essentially a set of rules / flowchart
to categorise parts. Knowing what the important features are to make a part one
thing rather than another is clearly needed.

This is the working definition of a wedge:

Wedge - For items other than plates that have a narrow edge at one end
and a wider edge at the other end.


 
Part No: 93604  Name: Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
93604 Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Medium Blue}

To, me this part is not a wedge, as the edges are equal in length.


To make things worse, regular slopes look like the usual usage of the word wedge.
In fact, LEGO have this educational webpage showing what a wedge is...

https://education.lego.com/en-us/lessons/spm/wedge#connect
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 12:52
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  
  Yes, that's why they're slopes and not rounded bricks. To me these two
things are conceptually really different.

If it would make no difference whether a part is rounded or has an angled curve,
then that would mean that macaroni bricks should be in Wedge as well.


Isn't part of the point of this to get essentially a set of rules / flowchart
to categorise parts. Knowing what the important features are to make a part one
thing rather than another is clearly needed.

This is the working definition of a wedge:

Wedge - For items other than plates that have a narrow edge at one end
and a wider edge at the other end.


 
Part No: 93604  Name: Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
93604 Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Medium Blue}

To, me this part is not a wedge, as the edges are equal in length.


What about this one?

 
Part No: 45677  Name: Wedge 4 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
45677 Wedge 4 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Orange}

I feel like they should be together, what do you think? This one is a wedge according
to the definition because the front edge is smaller than the back. You're
right that other one has no narrow side, because the front side has not flat
section and curves continuously. But its non-rectangular footprint intuitively
seems a wedge to me.

  

To make things worse, regular slopes look like the usual usage of the word wedge.
In fact, LEGO have this educational webpage showing what a wedge is...

https://education.lego.com/en-us/lessons/spm/wedge#connect

Yikes, yep. In my webshop Wedges are called a translation of something like "fuselage
bricks".. while they can be used for anything, I feel that may be a good archetype
for people to understand quickly what that category will contain.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 13:38
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
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In Catalog, Teup writes:
  […]
  
 
Part No: 93604  Name: Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
93604 Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Medium Blue}

To, me this part is not a wedge, as the edges are equal in length.

Not quite: two of the corners are cut.


  What about this one?

 
Part No: 45677  Name: Wedge 4 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
45677 Wedge 4 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Orange}

I feel like they should be together, what do you think? This one is a wedge according
to the definition because the front edge is smaller than the back.

Er, not more than the previous one: the corners are cut straight instead of being
cut with a curve.
Even more: if you put one on top of the other (reversed), you’ll see the profile
of the rounded one is smaller than the angled one.  (See pic.  I used digital
because photo would take more time but the models are accurate.)


  You're
right that other one has no narrow side, because the front side has not flat
section and curves continuously. But its non-rectangular footprint intuitively
seems a wedge to me.

Either both are wedges or both aren’t.


  
  To make things worse, regular slopes look like the usual usage of the word wedge.
In fact, LEGO have this educational webpage showing what a wedge is...

https://education.lego.com/en-us/lessons/spm/wedge#connect

Yikes, yep. In my webshop Wedges are called a translation of something like "fuselage
bricks".. while they can be used for anything, I feel that may be a good archetype
for people to understand quickly what that category will contain.

Yeah, a group of people use a term, in a bit of a special case of its usual meanings,
then it’s their jargon and they obstinately defend its use as something sacred
that can’t have any other meaning “in real life” and that couldn’t be replaced
by another, more meaningful, more understandable term.

Note 1: TLG call these parts (wedges) bricks, roofs, plates, or shells; most
of times adding qualifiers like “w/bow” or “w/angle” (and variants of such).
Same with what BL calls wedge plates: they are wings, corners, or plates w/angle.

Note 2: the French translation for wedge is “cale” (lit. stall, when it’s used
to jam something) or “coin” (lit. corner, when it’s used to split something). 
For cars/wheels, we also use “vé,” the name of the letter V.
Any way you translate it, it does not express the shape of these parts.
 
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 04:57
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
 Viewed: 21 times
 Topic: Catalog
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yorbrick (781)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Yorbricks
In Catalog, Teup writes:
  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  In Catalog, Teup writes:
  In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  […]
 
Part No: 67810  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
67810 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Reddish Brown}
to Wedge

I get the rationale: if 6091 is a slope, this one is a “slope on more than one
side,” a.k.a. a wedge.
But it bothers me somehow…

It's a bad idea.. there are never rounded parts in Wedge
. It's clearly
part of the family of bricks that have a rounded side.. If you are going to put
a slope in the same category as its matching double convex slope, you should
logically also put a rounded part in the same category as its matching rounded
corner.


That depends on how you define rounded... For example:
 
Part No: 93604  Name: Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
93604 Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Medium Blue}

While I agree it would be good if this goes in with similar curved parts that
curve in one direction, like
 
Part No: 3045  Name: Slope 45 2 x 2 Double Convex
* 
3045 Slope 45 2 x 2 Double Convex
Parts: Slope {Tan}
goes with slopes.

Hmm that part is still very clearly a wedge to me... Again it has an irregular
angled slope. It does not start horizontally and end vertically, like the quarter
circle roundings of the rounded bricks. You can consider the front of the base
rounded, but it is not a semicircle. It still ends at irregular sloping angles
on either side. So even with that wedge, the way I see it there's a huge
gap between slopes/wedges and these rounded bricks that aways end on straight
angles in every dimension.

Plus there are parts like these:

 
Part No: 30602  Name: Slope, Curved 2 x 2 Lip
* 
30602 Slope, Curved 2 x 2 Lip
Parts: Slope, Curved {Dark Blue}
 
Part No: 44675  Name: Slope, Curved 2 x 2 with 3 Side Ports Recessed
* 
44675 Slope, Curved 2 x 2 with 3 Side Ports Recessed
Parts: Slope, Curved {Green}
 
Part No: 47457  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
* 
47457 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Purple}

These all curve front/back and left/right. They even have a discontinuity in
slope where the slopes join rather than joining smoothly, yet two are classed
as curved slopes and not wedges, the other a modified brick.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 05:24
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
 Viewed: 29 times
 Topic: Catalog
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  In Catalog, Teup writes:
  In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  In Catalog, Teup writes:
  In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  […]
 
Part No: 67810  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
* 
67810 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 1 1/3 with Curved Top
Parts: Brick, Modified {Reddish Brown}
to Wedge

I get the rationale: if 6091 is a slope, this one is a “slope on more than one
side,” a.k.a. a wedge.
But it bothers me somehow…

It's a bad idea.. there are never rounded parts in Wedge
. It's clearly
part of the family of bricks that have a rounded side.. If you are going to put
a slope in the same category as its matching double convex slope, you should
logically also put a rounded part in the same category as its matching rounded
corner.


That depends on how you define rounded... For example:
 
Part No: 93604  Name: Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
* 
93604 Wedge 3 x 4 x 2/3 Triple Curved
Parts: Wedge {Medium Blue}

While I agree it would be good if this goes in with similar curved parts that
curve in one direction, like
 
Part No: 3045  Name: Slope 45 2 x 2 Double Convex
* 
3045 Slope 45 2 x 2 Double Convex
Parts: Slope {Tan}
goes with slopes.

Hmm that part is still very clearly a wedge to me... Again it has an irregular
angled slope. It does not start horizontally and end vertically, like the quarter
circle roundings of the rounded bricks. You can consider the front of the base
rounded, but it is not a semicircle. It still ends at irregular sloping angles
on either side. So even with that wedge, the way I see it there's a huge
gap between slopes/wedges and these rounded bricks that aways end on straight
angles in every dimension.

Plus there are parts like these:

 
Part No: 30602  Name: Slope, Curved 2 x 2 Lip
* 
30602 Slope, Curved 2 x 2 Lip
Parts: Slope, Curved {Dark Blue}
 
Part No: 44675  Name: Slope, Curved 2 x 2 with 3 Side Ports Recessed
* 
44675 Slope, Curved 2 x 2 with 3 Side Ports Recessed
Parts: Slope, Curved {Green}
 
Part No: 47457  Name: Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
* 
47457 Brick, Modified 2 x 2 x 2/3 Two Studs, Curved Slope End
Parts: Brick, Modified {Dark Purple}

These all curve front/back and left/right. They even have a discontinuity in
slope where the slopes join rather than joining smoothly, yet two are classed
as curved slopes and not wedges, the other a modified brick.

Agree, those could just as well be considered Wedges or Slopes. That will depend
on the exact definitions of those categories I guess. I don't think Wedges
have square footprints, but if they can, then I can see these as Wedges.
 Author: jennnifer View Messages Posted By jennnifer
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 09:43
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Brick, Modified part 2
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jennnifer (2592)

Location:  USA, Illinois
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 8, 2009 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Old Grey Bricks
It's important to remember here that a Wedge is defined by the shape of its
base, not its sides or slopes. Parts with square, rectangular, or circular bases
should not be in Wedge.
The base shape of a Wedge will most often resemble a triangular or diamond shape.

I was wrong in my comments about moving part 67810. I have not handled that new
part and was just guessing from its image. Sorry about that.

Jen
 Author: jennnifer View Messages Posted By jennnifer
 Posted: Aug 9, 2020 15:40
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things - Diagrams
 Viewed: 46 times
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jennnifer (2592)

Location:  USA, Illinois
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 8, 2009 Contact Member Seller
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Store Closed Store: Old Grey Bricks
Would something like this aid our definitions or discussions? I am willing to
make consistent quality diagrams for all categories that need them once final
decisions are made.

Jen
 


 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 10, 2020 13:36
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things - Diagrams
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  Would something like this aid our definitions or discussions?

Absolutely!

  I am willing to make consistent quality diagrams for all categories that need them

That is a very generous offer and it is much appreciated. We'd primarily
need them for shape categories, but I can see using them for a few "use" categories
as well (like hinge, turntable, and antenna).

You might consider attempting to structure them in such a way that multiple examples
of variation within the category can be presented (multiple images of different
example parts).
 Author: jennnifer View Messages Posted By jennnifer
 Posted: Aug 11, 2020 08:38
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things - Diagrams
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jennnifer (2592)

Location:  USA, Illinois
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 8, 2009 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Old Grey Bricks
In Catalog, StormChaser writes:
  In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  Would something like this aid our definitions or discussions?

Absolutely!

  I am willing to make consistent quality diagrams for all categories that need them

That is a very generous offer and it is much appreciated. We'd primarily
need them for shape categories, but I can see using them for a few "use" categories
as well (like hinge, turntable, and antenna).

You might consider attempting to structure them in such a way that multiple examples
of variation within the category can be presented (multiple images of different
example parts).

Got it! So something more like these? Any comments or suggestions are welcomed.

Jen
 


 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Aug 11, 2020 22:48
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things - Diagrams
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StormChaser (380)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Contact Member Seller
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Store Closed Store: Penultimate Harbinger
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
In Catalog, jennnifer writes:
  Got it! So something more like these? Any comments or suggestions are welcomed.

Yes, those are great! My only suggestion is to have the category name (brick,
slope, etc.) across the entire top of the diagram.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 12, 2020 07:26
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things - Diagrams
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yorbrick (781)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Yorbricks
I like the idea of pictures, but I wonder if a few more examples should be shown,
to indicate the types / variety that might occur.

Also the term spherical might be misleading. What if it was oval / ellipsoidal
/ egg-shaped instead? Would that still qualify?

This one is not that close to spherical so more ellipsoidal as the radius of
the base is larger than the height
 
Part No: 49308  Name: Brick, Round 3 x 3 x 1 1/3 Dome Top - Open Stud
* 
49308 Brick, Round 3 x 3 x 1 1/3 Dome Top - Open Stud
Parts: Brick, Round {Bright Pink}

Or this part is a combination, containing vertical and spherical components
 
Part No: 30151a  Name: Brick, Round 2 x 2 x 1 2/3 Dome Top - Blocked Open Stud
* 
30151a Brick, Round 2 x 2 x 1 2/3 Dome Top - Blocked Open Stud
Parts: Brick, Round {Yellow}


Does this remain a cone:

 
Part No: 18909  Name: Cone Half 6 x 3 x 6 (Elliptic Paraboloid)
* 
18909 Cone Half 6 x 3 x 6 (Elliptic Paraboloid)
Parts: Cone {Bright Light Orange}

Is it then down to the gradient as the tip is approached?

The distinction then between a round brick and a cone become blurred, especially
if there are horizontally truncated parts.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Aug 12, 2020 08:01
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things - Diagrams
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Teup (4697)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: T-workshop / BLOKJESKONING
In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  I like the idea of pictures, but I wonder if a few more examples should be shown,
to indicate the types / variety that might occur.

Also the term spherical might be misleading. What if it was oval / ellipsoidal
/ egg-shaped instead? Would that still qualify?

This one is not that close to spherical so more ellipsoidal as the radius of
the base is larger than the height
 
Part No: 49308  Name: Brick, Round 3 x 3 x 1 1/3 Dome Top - Open Stud
* 
49308 Brick, Round 3 x 3 x 1 1/3 Dome Top - Open Stud
Parts: Brick, Round {Bright Pink}

Or this part is a combination, containing vertical and spherical components
 
Part No: 30151a  Name: Brick, Round 2 x 2 x 1 2/3 Dome Top - Blocked Open Stud
* 
30151a Brick, Round 2 x 2 x 1 2/3 Dome Top - Blocked Open Stud
Parts: Brick, Round {Yellow}


An idea came up to create a Tile,Round,Modified category - which I assume entails
a Brick,Round,Modified and Plate,Round,Modified category as well. Perhaps first
a definite decision needs to be made about whether that's a good idea or
not. If so, we may need to look closely at the Brick,Round definition too before
we can have the correct diagram.
 Author: jennnifer View Messages Posted By jennnifer
 Posted: Aug 12, 2020 10:04
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things - Diagrams
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jennnifer (2592)

Location:  USA, Illinois
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 8, 2009 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Old Grey Bricks
In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
  I like the idea of pictures, but I wonder if a few more examples should be shown,
to indicate the types / variety that might occur.

Also the term spherical might be misleading. What if it was oval / ellipsoidal
/ egg-shaped instead? Would that still qualify?


What I mean by spherical is the angle of the curve (and just the curve, not the
entire brick) matches that of a sphere.

If someone know a better or more illustrative term I would be happy to hear it!


  This one is not that close to spherical so more ellipsoidal as the radius of
the base is larger than the height
 
Part No: 49308  Name: Brick, Round 3 x 3 x 1 1/3 Dome Top - Open Stud
* 
49308 Brick, Round 3 x 3 x 1 1/3 Dome Top - Open Stud
Parts: Brick, Round {Bright Pink}

Or this part is a combination, containing vertical and spherical components
 
Part No: 30151a  Name: Brick, Round 2 x 2 x 1 2/3 Dome Top - Blocked Open Stud
* 
30151a Brick, Round 2 x 2 x 1 2/3 Dome Top - Blocked Open Stud
Parts: Brick, Round {Yellow}


Again, it's only the curve I am referring to. I don't think you should
infer from the definition that the walls could be vertical or spherical but not
both. The terms are meant to be inclusive.


  
Does this remain a cone:

 
Part No: 18909  Name: Cone Half 6 x 3 x 6 (Elliptic Paraboloid)
* 
18909 Cone Half 6 x 3 x 6 (Elliptic Paraboloid)
Parts: Cone {Bright Light Orange}


Stormchaser indicated that he is in favor of keeping parabolic curves within
the cone category.

Hope this helps!
Jen
 
 Author: jennnifer View Messages Posted By jennnifer
 Posted: Aug 12, 2020 10:10
 Subject: Re: Catalog Project - Moving Things - Diagrams
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jennnifer (2592)

Location:  USA, Illinois
Member Since Contact Type Status
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