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| | | Author: | mjah5  | | Posted: | Jun 20, 2020 13:26 | | Subject: | Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 175 times | | Topic: | Catalog | | Status: | Open | |
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| Hi all.
BACKGROUND: Let my start by saying that unlike my grandchildren, Marcus and
Soren, I am not a "Master Builder". I am a "Master Collector." My brick hobby
is to purchase long forgotten brick collections from parents of teen + former
brick fan that have been collecting dust in the basement or attic for years.
Once in my possession, I discard the fake pieces, wash the real ones then sort
them out looking for the special pieces that will tell me which sets the original
owner possessed.Then I try to re-assemble those sets.
PROBLEM: Currently, I have about 330 sets that I have identified as previously
owned. Those are my SIPs, "sets-in-progress." Each SIP has a container where
I store the parts that I've located. Together those 330 SIPs consist of
approximately 56,000 pieces. Of those, I have located about 23,000 pieces and
I am still looking for the other 23,000 pieces. I would guess my personal brick
collection consists of 100,000+ pieces that are not currently assigned to a SIP.
They are sorted and stored in other many other containers. When I need to locate
a piece for a SIP I look in about 5 "likely" containers then give up. Do I not
have the piece or is just in one of the many many "unlikely" containers?
SOLUTION: I'm building a MySQL Database to keep track of my collection.
Using BL's category system, there exist many bricks, slopes, arches etc.,
based more or less on shape. Within the sub-category bricks there are 1x1,
2x2, 2x4 etc., more or less based on size.
QUESTIONS: Q1;What are these sub-categories called? I would call them an ELEMENT.
is that correct? is there a better name for the sub-categories? Further, the
sub-categories such as 1x1 bricks of course come in many colours. Q2: What are
these sub-sub-categories called, or what are these ELEMENTs with a particular
colour called? I would call them a PART. Correct? Any other better name?
Q3; Lastly, if I hold in my hand, one blue 1x1 brick, what should that be called?
I would suggest that is a PIECE. Correct? Any better answer?
CATEGORY :: ELEMENT :: PART :: PIECE ??
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| | | | | Author: | Soviet | | Posted: | Jun 20, 2020 14:09 | | Subject: | Re: Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 49 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| Interesting, I would love to see a photo of your "SIP wall". Maybe you should
look into buying boxes and instructions to fully complete the sets?
To answer your question, Category Element Part seems correct, but I think
that Part is already a Piece, by your nomenclature. I guess the proper BrickLink
way would be Category Item (for a certain item) and then maybe Piece for an
Item in specific color. Maybe you should also introduce "Mold" into the database,
because--as you probably know--some of the old items used to look quite
different.
But my most important point is: if you're adding all your pieces to a database,
why not add them to BrickLink inventory? Even better, you can try Rebrickable,
which will give you a lot of interesting options when looking into completing
sets.
In Catalog, mjah5 writes:
| | Hi all.
BACKGROUND: Let my start by saying that unlike my grandchildren, Marcus and
Soren, I am not a "Master Builder". I am a "Master Collector." My brick hobby
is to purchase long forgotten brick collections from parents of teen + former
brick fan that have been collecting dust in the basement or attic for years.
Once in my possession, I discard the fake pieces, wash the real ones then sort
them out looking for the special pieces that will tell me which sets the original
owner possessed.Then I try to re-assemble those sets.
PROBLEM: Currently, I have about 330 sets that I have identified as previously
owned. Those are my SIPs, "sets-in-progress." Each SIP has a container where
I store the parts that I've located. Together those 330 SIPs consist of
approximately 56,000 pieces. Of those, I have located about 23,000 pieces and
I am still looking for the other 23,000 pieces. I would guess my personal brick
collection consists of 100,000+ pieces that are not currently assigned to a SIP.
They are sorted and stored in other many other containers. When I need to locate
a piece for a SIP I look in about 5 "likely" containers then give up. Do I not
have the piece or is just in one of the many many "unlikely" containers?
SOLUTION: I'm building a MySQL Database to keep track of my collection.
Using BL's category system, there exist many bricks, slopes, arches etc.,
based more or less on shape. Within the sub-category bricks there are 1x1,
2x2, 2x4 etc., more or less based on size.
QUESTIONS: Q1;What are these sub-categories called? I would call them an ELEMENT.
is that correct? is there a better name for the sub-categories? Further, the
sub-categories such as 1x1 bricks of course come in many colours. Q2: What are
these sub-sub-categories called, or what are these ELEMENTs with a particular
colour called? I would call them a PART. Correct? Any other better name?
Q3; Lastly, if I hold in my hand, one blue 1x1 brick, what should that be called?
I would suggest that is a PIECE. Correct? Any better answer?
CATEGORY :: ELEMENT :: PART :: PIECE ??
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| | | | | | | Author: | mjah5 | | Posted: | Jun 20, 2020 16:32 | | Subject: | Re: Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, Soviet writes:
| | Interesting, I would love to see a photo of your "SIP wall". Maybe you should
look into buying boxes and instructions to fully complete the sets?
To answer your question, Category Element Part seems correct, but I think
that Part is already a Piece, by your nomenclature. I guess the proper BrickLink
way would be Category Item (for a certain item) and then maybe Piece for an
Item in specific color. Maybe you should also introduce "Mold" into the database,
because--as you probably know--some of the old items used to look quite
different.
But my most important point is: if you're adding all your pieces to a database,
why not add them to BrickLink inventory? Even better, you can try Rebrickable,
which will give you a lot of interesting options when looking into completing
sets.
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Soviet, thank-you for the information and assistance. I will be sending you
a personal message with a picture of my SIPs and my many containers of unassigned
pieces.
The issue of mould differences and older pieces general is a concern. I try
to keep my SIPs period correct. I have separate containers for older pieces
where the PIP marks are on the side rather than in the middle of one of the studs
as is the case I do use BL to manage my SIPS. Currently I have 358 Wanted Lists,
one per SIP. I had considered using BL's Inventory feature to manage my
unassigned pieces, however, that is only available to Sellers members, not to
Buyers. Therefore, I'm using this project as a learning opportunity to develop
a DB with a web interface. Programming is my other passion.
Regards, Mark
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| | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Jun 20, 2020 14:26 | | Subject: | Re: Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| | | QUESTIONS: Q1;What are these sub-categories called? I would call them an ELEMENT.
is that correct? is there a better name for the sub-categories? Further, the
sub-categories such as 1x1 bricks of course come in many colours. Q2: What are
these sub-sub-categories called, or what are these ELEMENTs with a particular
colour called? I would call them a PART. Correct? Any other better name?
Q3; Lastly, if I hold in my hand, one blue 1x1 brick, what should that be called?
I would suggest that is a PIECE. Correct? Any better answer?
CATEGORY :: ELEMENT :: PART :: PIECE ??
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It is the other way around. A 1x1 brick is a part. A 1x1 brick in blue is an
element. A single piece in your hand can be called piece or part or element,
whatever you want really.
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| | | | | | | Author: | mjah5 | | Posted: | Jun 20, 2020 16:51 | | Subject: | Re: Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, yorbrick writes:
| | It is the other way around. A 1x1 brick is a part. A 1x1 brick in blue is an
element. A single piece in your hand can be called piece or part or element,
whatever you want really.
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Hello yorbrick, thank-you for the information. I like your suggestion and will
likely go with it.
Regards, Mark
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| | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 20, 2020 15:06 | | Subject: | Re: Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, mjah5 writes:
| | Hi all.
BACKGROUND: Let my start by saying that unlike my grandchildren, Marcus and
Soren, I am not a "Master Builder". I am a "Master Collector." My brick hobby
is to purchase long forgotten brick collections from parents of teen + former
brick fan that have been collecting dust in the basement or attic for years.
Once in my possession, I discard the fake pieces, wash the real ones then sort
them out looking for the special pieces that will tell me which sets the original
owner possessed.Then I try to re-assemble those sets.
PROBLEM: Currently, I have about 330 sets that I have identified as previously
owned. Those are my SIPs, "sets-in-progress." Each SIP has a container where
I store the parts that I've located. Together those 330 SIPs consist of
approximately 56,000 pieces. Of those, I have located about 23,000 pieces and
I am still looking for the other 23,000 pieces. I would guess my personal brick
collection consists of 100,000+ pieces that are not currently assigned to a SIP.
They are sorted and stored in other many other containers. When I need to locate
a piece for a SIP I look in about 5 "likely" containers then give up. Do I not
have the piece or is just in one of the many many "unlikely" containers?
SOLUTION: I'm building a MySQL Database to keep track of my collection.
Using BL's category system, there exist many bricks, slopes, arches etc.,
based more or less on shape. Within the sub-category bricks there are 1x1,
2x2, 2x4 etc., more or less based on size.
QUESTIONS: Q1;What are these sub-categories called? I would call them an ELEMENT.
is that correct? is there a better name for the sub-categories? Further, the
sub-categories such as 1x1 bricks of course come in many colours. Q2: What are
these sub-sub-categories called, or what are these ELEMENTs with a particular
colour called? I would call them a PART. Correct? Any other better name?
Q3; Lastly, if I hold in my hand, one blue 1x1 brick, what should that be called?
I would suggest that is a PIECE. Correct? Any better answer?
CATEGORY :: ELEMENT :: PART :: PIECE ??
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First, that you have trouble finding names for your entities is a big clue they
are the wrong entities.
Vocabulary-wise, “element,” ”part” and “piece” are mostly the same thing.
LEGO uses “design” for the mould (and decor  ) and “element” for design + colour.
LEGO’s “DesignID” is the number most often used by BL, LDraw and others as a
“part ID” or “name” (the text explaining the part is then a “description”).
And LEGO’s “ElementID,” the 6-digit number that appears in their instructions,
is what BL calls a PCC / Part-Colour-Code.
So, you found out that BL’s categories are “more or less based on shape.” That
means they aren’t.
Then you thought about colours. “Everybody knows” you don’t sort LEGO by colour
 
Then you found that many pieces share the same shape and are distinguished by
their size. Not all are.
So, what are you trying to do with this? Are you are trying to categorize your
parts to fit them in containers?
Then what you found out is that parts have attributes: general shape, size, colour,
and you “more or less” ordered them: shape first, then colour, then size.
Okay, that’s some sort of sieve system to define containers.
But why do you need to put that in you DB?
You have a list of parts of one side, your inventory, and lists of parts on the
other side, the wanted parts for the sets.
How will the database be used? You need to know first if the exact part (ID
+ colour) is in your inventory and, second, where it’s stored if it is.
Where do this categorization of yours is used in the DB?
Nowhere that I see.
Or do you want to have an algorithm that takes a BL part (ID + description +
colour) and turns out a container number?
But does it have to be in the DB? Not that I see.
So I don’t see a need to complicate your DB. You just need to have four main
tables: parts (BL id + description), colours, inventories (list of parts in a
given colour and in a given quantity), and containers (association between a
location and parts).
Besides, you’ll quickly find all “shapes” don’t divise regularly (or at all)
into “colours” or “sizes” (most of the heads are yellow; slopes first divise
by angle, not size; Technic connectors don’t come in many colours nor sizes; etc.).
Especially if you use BL categories as “shapes.”
On this note, here’s a rough categorization that some sellers (who sort many
parts) use as a first sieve:
Bricks & Arches
Brick Modified & Round
Plate
Plate Modified & Round
Slope
Technic
Tile & Panel
Minifig
Other
They are about the same size in a “standard” collection. This might help you
devise your containers’ organization.
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| | | | | | | Author: | mjah5 | | Posted: | Jun 20, 2020 17:36 | | Subject: | Re: Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, SylvainLS writes:
| | First, that you have trouble finding names for your entities is a big clue they
are the wrong entities.
Vocabulary-wise, “element,” ”part” and “piece” are mostly the same thing.
LEGO uses “design” for the mould (and decor ) and “element” for design + colour.
LEGO’s “DesignID” is the number most often used by BL, LDraw and others as a
“part ID” or “name” (the text explaining the part is then a “description”).
And LEGO’s “ElementID,” the 6-digit number that appears in their instructions,
is what BL calls a PCC / Part-Colour-Code.
So, you found out that BL’s categories are “more or less based on shape.” That
means they aren’t.
Then you thought about colours. “Everybody knows” you don’t sort LEGO by colour
Then you found that many pieces share the same shape and are distinguished by
their size. Not all are.
So, what are you trying to do with this? Are you are trying to categorize your
parts to fit them in containers?
Then what you found out is that parts have attributes: general shape, size, colour,
and you “more or less” ordered them: shape first, then colour, then size.
Okay, that’s some sort of sieve system to define containers.
But why do you need to put that in you DB?
You have a list of parts of one side, your inventory, and lists of parts on the
other side, the wanted parts for the sets.
How will the database be used? You need to know first if the exact part (ID
+ colour) is in your inventory and, second, where it’s stored if it is.
Where do this categorization of yours is used in the DB?
Nowhere that I see.
Or do you want to have an algorithm that takes a BL part (ID + description +
colour) and turns out a container number?
But does it have to be in the DB? Not that I see.
So I don’t see a need to complicate your DB. You just need to have four main
tables: parts (BL id + description), colours, inventories (list of parts in a
given colour and in a given quantity), and containers (association between a
location and parts).
Besides, you’ll quickly find all “shapes” don’t divise regularly (or at all)
into “colours” or “sizes” (most of the heads are yellow; slopes first divise
by angle, not size; Technic connectors don’t come in many colours nor sizes; etc.).
Especially if you use BL categories as “shapes.”
On this note, here’s a rough categorization that some sellers (who sort many
parts) use as a first sieve:
Bricks & Arches
Brick Modified & Round
Plate
Plate Modified & Round
Slope
Technic
Tile & Panel
Minifig
Other
They are about the same size in a “standard” collection. This might help you
devise your containers’ organization.
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Hello SylvainLS, thank-you for the very useful information. You raise some very
good points. in my initial message I did not describe the structure of the DB
I am building because it was un-necessary to the information I was seeking and
would have taken far to many keystrokes and doubtlessly many readers wouldn't
have cared less and some would have been confused regardless. However, since
you raised the issue, I'll try to be brief.
My SIPs are managed adequately by BL using the WANTED LISTS. While I may in
the future move that info into the DB, currently the DB is just for my unassigned
pieces. My plan is to assign each of my existing containers into the `Containers`
table. There will also be a `Colours` and a `Categories` table. The Containers
table will be linked to the Colours and Categories tables. Some containers will
have only one colour and one category, but as you point out some. container will
colour and category lines, such as the container for my "larger-ish" TRANSparent
pieces.
My next table will, as you suggest, be for PARTS linking part descriptions to
category descriptions. The last table will be, likely called ELEMENTS will link
PARTS to COLOURS and to a particular container and will list a ELEMENT count
for the for that container. Were I to have many Blue 2x4 bricks that I required
a second container, the ELEMENTS table would have two or more entries (a one
to many relationship).
Once all set up, my PLAN FOR USE is to use the BL WANTED LISTS to identify missing
SIP elements then to query my DB to identify which one or more of my containers
hold those elements. Update both DBs then move on to the next missing Element.
If I don't have the missing element then I can use BL to purchase it. Right
now, I don't want to purchase anything from BL because I'm not 100% certain
I don't already have it somewhere.
Like I said, thank-you for your excellent and helpful information on sorting,
storing and managing my collection.
Regards, Mark
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| | | | | Author: | jeslego | | Posted: | Jun 20, 2020 17:59 | | Subject: | Re: Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, mjah5 writes:
| | Hi all.
BACKGROUND: Let my start by saying that unlike my grandchildren, Marcus and
Soren, I am not a "Master Builder". I am a "Master Collector." My brick hobby
is to purchase long forgotten brick collections from parents of teen + former
brick fan that have been collecting dust in the basement or attic for years.
Once in my possession, I discard the fake pieces, wash the real ones then sort
them out looking for the special pieces that will tell me which sets the original
owner possessed.Then I try to re-assemble those sets.
PROBLEM: Currently, I have about 330 sets that I have identified as previously
owned. Those are my SIPs, "sets-in-progress." Each SIP has a container where
I store the parts that I've located. Together those 330 SIPs consist of
approximately 56,000 pieces. Of those, I have located about 23,000 pieces and
I am still looking for the other 23,000 pieces. I would guess my personal brick
collection consists of 100,000+ pieces that are not currently assigned to a SIP.
They are sorted and stored in other many other containers. When I need to locate
a piece for a SIP I look in about 5 "likely" containers then give up. Do I not
have the piece or is just in one of the many many "unlikely" containers?
SOLUTION: I'm building a MySQL Database to keep track of my collection.
Using BL's category system, there exist many bricks, slopes, arches etc.,
based more or less on shape. Within the sub-category bricks there are 1x1,
2x2, 2x4 etc., more or less based on size.
QUESTIONS: Q1;What are these sub-categories called? I would call them an ELEMENT.
is that correct? is there a better name for the sub-categories? Further, the
sub-categories such as 1x1 bricks of course come in many colours. Q2: What are
these sub-sub-categories called, or what are these ELEMENTs with a particular
colour called? I would call them a PART. Correct? Any other better name?
Q3; Lastly, if I hold in my hand, one blue 1x1 brick, what should that be called?
I would suggest that is a PIECE. Correct? Any better answer?
CATEGORY :: ELEMENT :: PART :: PIECE ??
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I liked Sylvain's answer, but my perspective is a little different.
A very long time ago, I started doing what you are doing, with the intent of
creating a business for my kids. It pays okay, but not enough to support an
adult. It is something to do when there is nothing to do.
Defining the objects in a LEGO database can be done. But it will take lots of
time to populate and maintain. The data design time has already being expended
by other organizations. The structure of the Bricklink catalog may not be ideal,
but it is free.
As noted elsewhere in the thread, the mold numbers and even minor part variations
start to matter as set age to the point where they are bought for nostalgia or
collections. If this is your market, you will need a database that warns you
when to do more than just check the shape and color of the parts.
But if your market is making people happy by providing them with a fun building
experience that is less costly than what it would be to buy the sets new, than
there are some shortcuts you can take.
Everything you need to finish a set is available for sale. Hence the real question
becomes whether it is less expensive to look for it in your inventory or on line.
There is a core of basic LEGO parts. Sort those by shape. They will be the
bulk of what you have in your 100k inventory. Storage is naturally self sorting.
Bricks, plates, slopes, wings, arches, lift arms, small technic parts, etc.
This speeds the bulk of your searches.
NEVER find yourself with 300+ sets to restore all at once. I did this too.
It complicates the process unnecessarily. If you have a pile of 1000 parts that
contains 600 you need to finish 8 sets, you have a manageable problem. If you
have a pile of 100k parts that contains the 600 you need to finish 8 sets, you
have a long, long slog ahead of you.
You can not store all of the parts ever produced. Holding odd bits for the day
that they are needed is a bit like waiting for Godot.
Every set has one or two parts that are unusually expensive. If you can quickly
identify these and determine whether you have them, you will be able to decide
if it makes economic sense to spend even one minute restoring this version of
the set. Ditto for Minifigs.
If you want to build and maintain databases, by all means do so. But a better
database will not help you complete sets any faster. If your time is worth $60
per hour and it takes you a minute to tag, store, and record the location of
a $1 part, you will lose money on said part when you pay for its storage space
or go to transfer it to a set.
Good Luck
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| | | | | | | Author: | Adjour | | Posted: | Jun 20, 2020 22:22 | | Subject: | Re: Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 47 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| | | NEVER find yourself with 300+ sets to restore all at once. I did this too.
It complicates the process unnecessarily. If you have a pile of 1000 parts that
contains 600 you need to finish 8 sets, you have a manageable problem. If you
have a pile of 100k parts that contains the 600 you need to finish 8 sets, you
have a long, long slog ahead of you.
You can not store all of the parts ever produced. Holding odd bits for the day
that they are needed is a bit like waiting for Godot.
Every set has one or two parts that are unusually expensive. If you can quickly
identify these and determine whether you have them, you will be able to decide
if it makes economic sense to spend even one minute restoring this version of
the set. Ditto for Minifigs.
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Took the words out of my mouth. This is primarily what I do, and I don't
have 40 sets in progress, let alone 300. I usually finish one lot at a time.
If the set doesn't have the figs, I usually wont bother saving it depending
on what it is.
I try also to buy lots of similar themes, so I have easy spare parts without
having to have "everything that ever existed". I just need "most" of what was
produced 1980- 2000 in my case.
I guess none of that is helpful really to the OP's question. I personally
wouldn't bother trying to set up my situation to operate this way, I would
work on getting the number of sets I intend to sell in my possession waaay down.
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| | | | | Author: | w.sm | | Posted: | Jun 21, 2020 01:08 | | Subject: | Re: Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, mjah5 writes:
I'm building a MySQL Database to keep track of my collection.
Why are you creating an SQL DB?
Have you thought of using sites that already exist for tracking your collection?
I'm not sure but I think rebrickable can do it.
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| | | | | Author: | mjah5 | | Posted: | Jun 21, 2020 04:34 | | Subject: | Re: Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| Hello Soviet, yorbrick, SylvainLS, jeslego, Adjour, m.ws et.al.
Thank-you for your insight and advise. Everyone uses Lego for their own purposes.
Some enjoy playing with it. Some use it to express their creativity. Some use
it to generate cash. All uses are perfectly fine. I like to organize. If I
buy a set, I see that set as fun to assemble but it does not require any organizing.
There is only very limited "chaos" in a boxed set of LEGO. On the other hand,
when I purchase a pile of bricks on eBay, I'm not that interested in the
individual elements, but rather on the huge amount of "chaos" that those elements
represent. I'm not buying the elements, I'm buying the "chaos" that
I can then apply my passion to organizing to remove the "chaos" from the elements.
If my SIPs never get completed I don't really care. I'm not going to
be selling the complete SIP, It will just be stored away. My collection of completed
SIPs holds no more interest for me other than as a measure of how much "chaos"
I have taken great pleasure in removing from the "World of Lost LEGO Elements".
Generally, the expression goes, "The means to the end." In my case I would say
that" The Means is the End."
Reading and thinking about all the great comments that my original post has sparked
has caused me to want to change how I describe myself as a LEGO user. While
I always knew I am not a "Master Builder" I had thought I was a "Master Collector".
The BL community has helped me to realize that I am more properly an "Amateur
Organizer". To suggest that I an a "Master Organizer" would also suggest that
my method of organizing is in some way superior. It's not! it's just
the method that suits my particular "flavour of OCD."
Lastly, regarding the terminology I needed for my DB, with your excellent advise,
I have decided to go with this sequence:
CATEGORY :: PART :: ELEMENT :: PIECE
Thanks to all community member.
If anyone want to discuss further the structure of my DB or how I intend to use
it feel free to carry on this discussion or to message me through this site.
BRICK ON all!
Mark, an "Amateur Organizer"
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| | | | | Author: | jcvp17 | | Posted: | Jun 21, 2020 15:18 | | Subject: | Re: Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| Hi!
For my personal Lego classification I am using the categories that you can see
in the attached image. It works quite well for me, although we already know that
any classification is subjective, arbitrary and can be improved 
best regards
jcvp17
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| | | | | | | Author: | mjah5 | | Posted: | Jun 21, 2020 16:38 | | Subject: | Re: Terminology - DB to organize my 100,000+ pcs | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Catalog | |
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| In Catalog, jcvp17 writes:
| | Hi!
For my personal Lego classification I am using the categories that you can see
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Hi jcvp17
I like your classifications. I also love Barcelona.
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Canada, Ontario
Poland, w. Pomorskie
United Kingdom, England
France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
USA, Washington
Australia, Victoria
Spain, Catalonia