Discussion Forum: Thread 263235

 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 07:29
 Subject: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
 Viewed: 179 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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Teup (4391)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
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The recent colour name changes seem a little inconsistent to me. In my mind there
are 3 ways to go:

1. Leave it as it is
2. Change the word "flesh" to "nougat" because you think it is racist (assuming
here that was the reason - official communication about it is very vague)
3. Adopt all LEGO colour names

Instead, now we have option 2 with a little bit of 3: The word "flesh" has changed
into "nougat", but we now have the official LEGO name for Medium Dark Flesh:
Medium Nougat.

The Bricklink word "medium" means "lighter": Medium Blue, Medium Orange, Medium
Green, Medium Brown, Medium Dark Pink are all lighter than their non-medium counterparts
(Exception here seems Lavender and Medium Lavender - I'd suggest making a
change there)

The LEGO word "medium" does not seem to mean that. I looked at the colour chart
and it seems a hopelessly inconsistent word. Medium Nougat is slightly darker
than Nougat, not lighter. That's unfortunate, but that is the way it is.
Nothing that can't be learned by heart, I guess.


I think Bricklink can go in two directions:

Keep its own good naming convention where "medium" is a meaningful word that
means "lighter"
(and as a tradeoff, it will not be consistent with LEGO names)

OR

Adopt ALL LEGO names for all colours (and as a tradeoff, the word "medium"
becomes inconsistent)

Right now we're kind of getting the worst of both worlds: Not adopted the
LEGO names but still made the word "medium" inconsistent. "Medium" seems to mean
"somehow different, but you gotta check out the colour guide to find out how
exactly". "Nougat" and "Medium Nougat" are just as meaningful as names as "Nougat
1" and "Nougat 2".

So my suggestion: Please keep the word "medium" meaningful, by keeping "medium
dark nougat" (and optionally, keeping "dark nougat" for "medium brown"). Alternatively,
adopt all LEGO colours across the board.

(the bonus of the latter option is that "Trans Dark Blue" will finally be called
"Trans Blue" - my personal pet peeve )
 Author: Give.Me.A.Brick View Messages Posted By Give.Me.A.Brick
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 07:47
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
 Viewed: 61 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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Give.Me.A.Brick (8268)

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In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  Adopt ALL LEGO names for all colours


Yes, for the sake of a standard that everyone can use with transliterations.

Personal tastes aside, LEGO is the manufacturer, BrickLink is a marketplace.

Please make it easier for the newcomer. Us, old folks, will adapt.

The question that needs to be answered is:

What makes sense in 10, 20, 30 years time?
 Author: Give.Me.A.Brick View Messages Posted By Give.Me.A.Brick
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 07:50
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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 Topic: Suggestions
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Give.Me.A.Brick (8268)

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In Suggestions, Give.Me.A.Brick writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  Adopt ALL LEGO names for all colours


Yes, for the sake of a standard that everyone can use without translations.

Personal tastes aside, LEGO is the manufacturer, BrickLink is a marketplace.

Please make it easier for the newcomer. Us, old folks, will adapt.

The question that needs to be answered is:

What makes sense in 10, 20, 30 years time?
 Author: manganschlamm View Messages Posted By manganschlamm
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 07:50
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
 Viewed: 49 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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manganschlamm (1396)

Location:  Germany, Rheinland-Pfalz
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In Suggestions, Give.Me.A.Brick writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  Adopt ALL LEGO names for all colours


Yes, for the sake of a standard that everyone can use with transliterations.

Personal tastes aside, LEGO is the manufacturer, BrickLink is a marketplace.

Please make it easier for the newcomer. Us, old folks, will adapt.

The question that needs to be answered is:

What makes sense in 10, 20, 30 years time?



A fully support this. Much more important than purist considerations about color
naming is consistency between Lego.com, BL, BO and Brickset. The same color names
on every platform please.
 Author: pitz8008 View Messages Posted By pitz8008
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 07:59
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
 Viewed: 47 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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pitz8008 (7796)

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In Suggestions, Give.Me.A.Brick writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  Adopt ALL LEGO names for all colours


Yes, for the sake of a standard that everyone can use with transliterations.

Personal tastes aside, LEGO is the manufacturer, BrickLink is a marketplace.

Please make it easier for the newcomer. Us, old folks, will adapt.

The question that needs to be answered is:

What makes sense in 10, 20, 30 years time?


Now here is something that makes sense. But this decision had nothing to do with
making things standardized across all platforms. The fact that the name was originally
going to be changed to peach confirms that.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 08:43
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
 Viewed: 36 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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Teup (4391)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
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In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  The recent colour name changes seem a little inconsistent to me. In my mind there
are 3 ways to go:

1. Leave it as it is
2. Change the word "flesh" to "nougat" because you think it is racist (assuming
here that was the reason - official communication about it is very vague)
3. Adopt all LEGO colour names

Instead, now we have option 2 with a little bit of 3: The word "flesh" has changed
into "nougat", but we now have the official LEGO name for Medium Dark Flesh:
Medium Nougat.

The Bricklink word "medium" means "lighter": Medium Blue, Medium Orange, Medium
Green, Medium Brown, Medium Dark Pink are all lighter than their non-medium counterparts
(Exception here seems Lavender and Medium Lavender - I'd suggest making a
change there)

The LEGO word "medium" does not seem to mean that. I looked at the colour chart
and it seems a hopelessly inconsistent word. Medium Nougat is slightly darker
than Nougat, not lighter. That's unfortunate, but that is the way it is.
Nothing that can't be learned by heart, I guess.


I think Bricklink can go in two directions:

Keep its own good naming convention where "medium" is a meaningful word that
means "lighter"
(and as a tradeoff, it will not be consistent with LEGO names)

OR

Adopt ALL LEGO names for all colours (and as a tradeoff, the word "medium"
becomes inconsistent)

Right now we're kind of getting the worst of both worlds: Not adopted the
LEGO names but still made the word "medium" inconsistent. "Medium" seems to mean
"somehow different, but you gotta check out the colour guide to find out how
exactly". "Nougat" and "Medium Nougat" are just as meaningful as names as "Nougat
1" and "Nougat 2".

So my suggestion: Please keep the word "medium" meaningful, by keeping "medium
dark nougat" (and optionally, keeping "dark nougat" for "medium brown"). Alternatively,
adopt all LEGO colours across the board.

(the bonus of the latter option is that "Trans Dark Blue" will finally be called
"Trans Blue" - my personal pet peeve )

Thanks for the responses, currently adopting all LEGO names also has my preference.
For lowering the threshold of new people to sign up on Bricklink. And for a strong,
universal cross-platform community that can exist independently from the whims
of any particular platform.

But if not, I would really like "Light Nougat - Nougat - Medium Dark Nougat -
Dark Nougat", just like we had with "flesh". If you would give a random person
with no prior knowledge parts in these 4 colours and ask them to assign the 4
labels, everyone would get them right. But with "Light Nougat - Nougat - Medium
Nougat", they won't.

Anyway I am pretty sure we're going to end up with all the official names
anyway at some point. LEGO wants their part service and Bricklink to be complementary
features, and while that doesn't mean Bricklink can't be independent,
these two components do need to "click" together somehow.
 Author: axaday View Messages Posted By axaday
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 09:00
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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 Topic: Suggestions
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axaday (4215)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  The recent colour name changes seem a little inconsistent to me. In my mind there
are 3 ways to go:

1. Leave it as it is
2. Change the word "flesh" to "nougat" because you think it is racist (assuming
here that was the reason - official communication about it is very vague)
3. Adopt all LEGO colour names

Instead, now we have option 2 with a little bit of 3: The word "flesh" has changed
into "nougat", but we now have the official LEGO name for Medium Dark Flesh:
Medium Nougat.

The Bricklink word "medium" means "lighter": Medium Blue, Medium Orange, Medium
Green, Medium Brown, Medium Dark Pink are all lighter than their non-medium counterparts
(Exception here seems Lavender and Medium Lavender - I'd suggest making a
change there)

The LEGO word "medium" does not seem to mean that. I looked at the colour chart
and it seems a hopelessly inconsistent word. Medium Nougat is slightly darker
than Nougat, not lighter. That's unfortunate, but that is the way it is.
Nothing that can't be learned by heart, I guess.


I think Bricklink can go in two directions:

Keep its own good naming convention where "medium" is a meaningful word that
means "lighter"
(and as a tradeoff, it will not be consistent with LEGO names)

OR

Adopt ALL LEGO names for all colours (and as a tradeoff, the word "medium"
becomes inconsistent)

Right now we're kind of getting the worst of both worlds: Not adopted the
LEGO names but still made the word "medium" inconsistent. "Medium" seems to mean
"somehow different, but you gotta check out the colour guide to find out how
exactly". "Nougat" and "Medium Nougat" are just as meaningful as names as "Nougat
1" and "Nougat 2".

So my suggestion: Please keep the word "medium" meaningful, by keeping "medium
dark nougat" (and optionally, keeping "dark nougat" for "medium brown"). Alternatively,
adopt all LEGO colours across the board.

(the bonus of the latter option is that "Trans Dark Blue" will finally be called
"Trans Blue" - my personal pet peeve )

Thanks for the responses, currently adopting all LEGO names also has my preference.
For lowering the threshold of new people to sign up on Bricklink. And for a strong,
universal cross-platform community that can exist independently from the whims
of any particular platform.

But if not, I would really like "Light Nougat - Nougat - Medium Dark Nougat -
Dark Nougat", just like we had with "flesh". If you would give a random person
with no prior knowledge parts in these 4 colours and ask them to assign the 4
labels, everyone would get them right. But with "Light Nougat - Nougat - Medium
Nougat", they won't.

Anyway I am pretty sure we're going to end up with all the official names
anyway at some point. LEGO wants their part service and Bricklink to be complementary
features, and while that doesn't mean Bricklink can't be independent,
these two components do need to "click" together somehow.

I don't remember what other "Medium Dark" colors we have, but I don't
really want any. I spend a lot of time naming torso assemblies and there isn't
enough room for someone to have Medium Dark anything arms.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 11:13
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
 Viewed: 40 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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Teup (4391)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
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Store Closed Store: The T-workshop
In Suggestions, axaday writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  The recent colour name changes seem a little inconsistent to me. In my mind there
are 3 ways to go:

1. Leave it as it is
2. Change the word "flesh" to "nougat" because you think it is racist (assuming
here that was the reason - official communication about it is very vague)
3. Adopt all LEGO colour names

Instead, now we have option 2 with a little bit of 3: The word "flesh" has changed
into "nougat", but we now have the official LEGO name for Medium Dark Flesh:
Medium Nougat.

The Bricklink word "medium" means "lighter": Medium Blue, Medium Orange, Medium
Green, Medium Brown, Medium Dark Pink are all lighter than their non-medium counterparts
(Exception here seems Lavender and Medium Lavender - I'd suggest making a
change there)

The LEGO word "medium" does not seem to mean that. I looked at the colour chart
and it seems a hopelessly inconsistent word. Medium Nougat is slightly darker
than Nougat, not lighter. That's unfortunate, but that is the way it is.
Nothing that can't be learned by heart, I guess.


I think Bricklink can go in two directions:

Keep its own good naming convention where "medium" is a meaningful word that
means "lighter"
(and as a tradeoff, it will not be consistent with LEGO names)

OR

Adopt ALL LEGO names for all colours (and as a tradeoff, the word "medium"
becomes inconsistent)

Right now we're kind of getting the worst of both worlds: Not adopted the
LEGO names but still made the word "medium" inconsistent. "Medium" seems to mean
"somehow different, but you gotta check out the colour guide to find out how
exactly". "Nougat" and "Medium Nougat" are just as meaningful as names as "Nougat
1" and "Nougat 2".

So my suggestion: Please keep the word "medium" meaningful, by keeping "medium
dark nougat" (and optionally, keeping "dark nougat" for "medium brown"). Alternatively,
adopt all LEGO colours across the board.

(the bonus of the latter option is that "Trans Dark Blue" will finally be called
"Trans Blue" - my personal pet peeve )

Thanks for the responses, currently adopting all LEGO names also has my preference.
For lowering the threshold of new people to sign up on Bricklink. And for a strong,
universal cross-platform community that can exist independently from the whims
of any particular platform.

But if not, I would really like "Light Nougat - Nougat - Medium Dark Nougat -
Dark Nougat", just like we had with "flesh". If you would give a random person
with no prior knowledge parts in these 4 colours and ask them to assign the 4
labels, everyone would get them right. But with "Light Nougat - Nougat - Medium
Nougat", they won't.

Anyway I am pretty sure we're going to end up with all the official names
anyway at some point. LEGO wants their part service and Bricklink to be complementary
features, and while that doesn't mean Bricklink can't be independent,
these two components do need to "click" together somehow.

I don't remember what other "Medium Dark" colors we have, but I don't
really want any. I spend a lot of time naming torso assemblies and there isn't
enough room for someone to have Medium Dark anything arms.

I guess the core of my complaint is that we now have "colour X" and "medium colour
X" and in some cases "medium" will mean that it's lighter, in other cases
it means that it's darker. With "medium blue" being lighter than "blue" but
"medium nougat" being darker than "nougat", it has become a pretty useless word.
I would welcome really any solution that eliminates that inconsistency, so if
another solution than mine is better, I'm all for it.
 Author: qwertyboy View Messages Posted By qwertyboy
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 14:36
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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 Topic: Suggestions
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qwertyboy (5018)

Location:  Canada, Alberta
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In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  I guess the core of my complaint is that we now have "colour X" and "medium colour
X" and in some cases "medium" will mean that it's lighter, in other cases
it means that it's darker. With "medium blue" being lighter than "blue" but
"medium nougat" being darker than "nougat", it has become a pretty useless word.
I would welcome really any solution that eliminates that inconsistency, so if
another solution than mine is better, I'm all for it.

I don't think your argument holds much water - we already had "lavender"
vs "medium lavender" (so the BL colors already had medium XXX being lighter as
well as darker, so any choice BL made would not have made the names more consistent
internally).

Assuming a change of color name was needed, I think it would be best to more
closely follow the TLG names. If you go back through the forum, new users regularly
were confused about the different names of colors. Removing these differences
across platforms will remove confusion, and that is a good thing.

In any case, the decision has been made. No doubt more complaints will keep flowing
in, but those will not change the outcome.

Niek.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 17:56
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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 Topic: Suggestions
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Teup (4391)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
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In Suggestions, qwertyboy writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  I guess the core of my complaint is that we now have "colour X" and "medium colour
X" and in some cases "medium" will mean that it's lighter, in other cases
it means that it's darker. With "medium blue" being lighter than "blue" but
"medium nougat" being darker than "nougat", it has become a pretty useless word.
I would welcome really any solution that eliminates that inconsistency, so if
another solution than mine is better, I'm all for it.

I don't think your argument holds much water - we already had "lavender"
vs "medium lavender" (so the BL colors already had medium XXX being lighter as
well as darker, so any choice BL made would not have made the names more consistent
internally).

Assuming a change of color name was needed, I think it would be best to more
closely follow the TLG names. If you go back through the forum, new users regularly
were confused about the different names of colors. Removing these differences
across platforms will remove confusion, and that is a good thing.

In any case, the decision has been made. No doubt more complaints will keep flowing
in, but those will not change the outcome.

Niek.

Well, yeah, it's why I'd propose changing Lavender and Medium Lavender
too.. (for example, calling the one "Light Lavender") Either way, the fact is
that we went from a situation where anyone without any prior knowledge could
guess which flesh/nougat colour is which, to a situation where it has become
fully unclear which one is "medium" and which one is "just nougat". I think that's
a step back from where we were before. The part where it matches the official
names is a slight improvement, but with so many names still not matching, it
is definitely not safe to rely on that yet.
Well, I guess I made the point clear.. hopefully this is a temporary situation
and any solution is fine. Let's see what happens next. I'm sure more
name changes are coming up one way or the other.
 Author: randyf View Messages Posted By randyf
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 20:07
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
 Viewed: 53 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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randyf (381)

Location:  USA, Ohio
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In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, qwertyboy writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  I guess the core of my complaint is that we now have "colour X" and "medium colour
X" and in some cases "medium" will mean that it's lighter, in other cases
it means that it's darker. With "medium blue" being lighter than "blue" but
"medium nougat" being darker than "nougat", it has become a pretty useless word.
I would welcome really any solution that eliminates that inconsistency, so if
another solution than mine is better, I'm all for it.

I don't think your argument holds much water - we already had "lavender"
vs "medium lavender" (so the BL colors already had medium XXX being lighter as
well as darker, so any choice BL made would not have made the names more consistent
internally).

Assuming a change of color name was needed, I think it would be best to more
closely follow the TLG names. If you go back through the forum, new users regularly
were confused about the different names of colors. Removing these differences
across platforms will remove confusion, and that is a good thing.

In any case, the decision has been made. No doubt more complaints will keep flowing
in, but those will not change the outcome.

Niek.

Well, yeah, it's why I'd propose changing Lavender and Medium Lavender
too.. (for example, calling the one "Light Lavender")

The names for the BrickLink colors Lavender and Medium Lavender from LEGO are...surprise,
surprise...Lavender and Medium Lavender.

And the names for the BrickLink colors that are now Nougat and Medium Nougat
from LEGO are Nougat and Medium Nougat.

Therefore, if you have a problem with the use of Medium as an inconsistent qualifier
for the color names, I suggest you bark up the tree that created the conundrum.
Here's a hint: it isn't BrickLink.

  Either way, the fact is
that we went from a situation where anyone without any prior knowledge could
guess which flesh/nougat colour is which,

*Anyone*? I would like to see the data you used to form that statement.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Feb 3, 2020 08:21
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
 Viewed: 49 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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Teup (4391)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
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In Suggestions, randyf writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, qwertyboy writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  I guess the core of my complaint is that we now have "colour X" and "medium colour
X" and in some cases "medium" will mean that it's lighter, in other cases
it means that it's darker. With "medium blue" being lighter than "blue" but
"medium nougat" being darker than "nougat", it has become a pretty useless word.
I would welcome really any solution that eliminates that inconsistency, so if
another solution than mine is better, I'm all for it.

I don't think your argument holds much water - we already had "lavender"
vs "medium lavender" (so the BL colors already had medium XXX being lighter as
well as darker, so any choice BL made would not have made the names more consistent
internally).

Assuming a change of color name was needed, I think it would be best to more
closely follow the TLG names. If you go back through the forum, new users regularly
were confused about the different names of colors. Removing these differences
across platforms will remove confusion, and that is a good thing.

In any case, the decision has been made. No doubt more complaints will keep flowing
in, but those will not change the outcome.

Niek.

Well, yeah, it's why I'd propose changing Lavender and Medium Lavender
too.. (for example, calling the one "Light Lavender")

The names for the BrickLink colors Lavender and Medium Lavender from LEGO are...surprise,
surprise...Lavender and Medium Lavender.

And the names for the BrickLink colors that are now Nougat and Medium Nougat
from LEGO are Nougat and Medium Nougat.

Therefore, if you have a problem with the use of Medium as an inconsistent qualifier
for the color names, I suggest you bark up the tree that created the conundrum.
Here's a hint: it isn't BrickLink.

But Bricklink has not adopted the LEGO colour names as of yet.

I really took the time to explain it quite elaborately and I don't feel like
repeating it. I was fully aware of the problems with the LEGO names and I was
talking about a tradeoff inherent to both ways to go, and this step only made
it less clear while a the same time we haven't gained full consistency with
LEGO. And there's no such thing as the colour table being "a bit consistent"
- it is still just inconsistent. We went from inconsistent to inconsistent and
intuitively a little less clear.

  
  Either way, the fact is
that we went from a situation where anyone without any prior knowledge could
guess which flesh/nougat colour is which,

*Anyone*? I would like to see the data you used to form that statement.

Sure, I will ask a few friends. I think they will get it right, but let's
see.
 Author: randyf View Messages Posted By randyf
 Posted: Feb 3, 2020 12:56
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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 Topic: Suggestions
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randyf (381)

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In Suggestions, Teup writes:

  But Bricklink has not adopted the LEGO colour names as of yet.

They have for those colors you are talking about. That is the point. You were
complaining about "Medium" being an inconsistent qualifier for a color. Well,
BrickLink didn't create that inconsistency. LEGO did. So as I said before,
if you want to complain about "Medium" being an inconsistent qualifier, don't
blame BrickLink.

  I really took the time to explain it quite elaborately and I don't feel like
repeating it. I was fully aware of the problems with the LEGO names and I was
talking about a tradeoff inherent to both ways to go, and this step only made
it less clear while a the same time we haven't gained full consistency with
LEGO.

So, are you for becoming consistent with LEGO or staying inconsistent with
LEGO? You are arguing both sides of the coin. If we make all colors LEGO names,
then you are complaining you would like to have some changed to remove LEGO's
use of the inconsistent use of the qualifier "Medium". However, if we do that,
then BrickLink is once again inconsistent with LEGO. And the colors to me
are just as clear as they were before. It is your opinion (and some others) that
they are less clear, so don't act like it is a fact.

  And there's no such thing as the colour table being "a bit consistent"
- it is still just inconsistent. We went from inconsistent to inconsistent and
intuitively a little less clear.

Exactly. It has always been inconsistent with itself and with LEGO. So what is
new? You just can't get past your opinion that it is less clear. And it is
just that. An opinion.

  
  
  Either way, the fact is
that we went from a situation where anyone without any prior knowledge could
guess which flesh/nougat colour is which,

  *Anyone*? I would like to see the data you used to form that statement.

Sure, I will ask a few friends. I think they will get it right, but let's
see.

Go for it, and have fun. I will even help you. Take the below image and ask anyone
at random to label the following colors on the image: "Light Flesh", "Flesh",
"Medium Dark Flesh", and "Dark Flesh". Let me know how many get 100% correct.
Then ask them to label "Light Nougat", "Nougat", "Dark Nougat", and "Medium Brown".
Let me know again how many get 100% correct. I would bet that almost no one will
get 100% on either test. So, is it really less intuitive? I think they are both
the same level of unintuitive. Labeling colors always gets less intuitive the
larger the color palette you have in front of you.
 
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Feb 3, 2020 14:35
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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 Topic: Suggestions
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Teup (4391)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
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In Suggestions, randyf writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:

  But Bricklink has not adopted the LEGO colour names as of yet.

They have for those colors you are talking about. That is the point. You were
complaining about "Medium" being an inconsistent qualifier for a color. Well,
BrickLink didn't create that inconsistency. LEGO did. So as I said before,
if you want to complain about "Medium" being an inconsistent qualifier, don't
blame BrickLink.

Besides the Lavender issue, which I also mentioned, Bricklink had a consistent
"medium" qualifier.

  
  I really took the time to explain it quite elaborately and I don't feel like
repeating it. I was fully aware of the problems with the LEGO names and I was
talking about a tradeoff inherent to both ways to go, and this step only made
it less clear while a the same time we haven't gained full consistency with
LEGO.

So, are you for becoming consistent with LEGO or staying inconsistent with
LEGO?

It's not the actual topic but I prefer that it would be consistent at some
point. Ideally by adopting the BL names, but I doubt that will happen.

  You are arguing both sides of the coin. If we make all colors LEGO names,
then you are complaining you would like to have some changed to remove LEGO's
use of the inconsistent use of the qualifier "Medium". However, if we do that,
then BrickLink is once again inconsistent with LEGO. And the colors to me
are just as clear as they were before. It is your opinion (and some others) that
they are less clear, so don't act like it is a fact.

I said both are fine. Both options make Bricklink easier to learn: Either new
users not having to learn new colours, or new users intuitively understanding
the colour names.
  
  And there's no such thing as the colour table being "a bit consistent"
- it is still just inconsistent. We went from inconsistent to inconsistent and
intuitively a little less clear.

Exactly. It has always been inconsistent with itself and with LEGO. So what is
new? You just can't get past your opinion that it is less clear. And it is
just that. An opinion.

What is new is that the "medium" word on Bricklink is now misleading if you look
at medium blue etc.

  
  
  
  Either way, the fact is
that we went from a situation where anyone without any prior knowledge could
guess which flesh/nougat colour is which,

  *Anyone*? I would like to see the data you used to form that statement.

Sure, I will ask a few friends. I think they will get it right, but let's
see.

Go for it, and have fun. I will even help you. Take the below image and ask anyone
at random to label the following colors on the image: "Light Flesh", "Flesh",
"Medium Dark Flesh", and "Dark Flesh". Let me know how many get 100% correct.
Then ask them to label "Light Nougat", "Nougat", "Dark Nougat", and "Medium Brown".
Let me know again how many get 100% correct. I would bet that almost no one will
get 100% on either test. So, is it really less intuitive? I think they are both
the same level of unintuitive. Labeling colors always gets less intuitive the
larger the color palette you have in front of you.

I'm talking about the flesh/nougat colours, specifically about Medium Dark
Nougat. Of course colours are hard, this will never change. You are right nobody
will identify a whole range of beige/brown colours correctly by their names.
But in the old situation it seems very clear to me that the order from light
to dark is: "light flesh, flesh, medium dark flesh, dark flesh". I think this
makes intuitive sense to anyone. However, "light nougat, nougat, medium nougat,
dark nougat" - not so much. If anything, looking at most "medium" colours, one
would expect "nougat" and "medium nougat" the other way around.

Again: Go fully consistent with LEGO and we lose the "medium" logic bug win consistency.
Go fully for sensical names and we lose consistency but win intuitive sense.
I think a choice needs to be made. Both are better than the current situation.
The background for my post is the fact that Bricklink is difficult to learn and
dauting for many casual AFOLs, and I just want as many orders as possible. You
are right colours always remain difficult to identify, but if we would have either
good consistent naming that makes sense, or the LEGO names that many new users
would already be familiar with, that would at least be a good start. Right now
we have neither, with some names being that way because it's a good name
and others being bad but they're that way to match Lego. That's just
not a good story to tell any new user.
 Author: randyf View Messages Posted By randyf
 Posted: Feb 3, 2020 15:11
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
 Viewed: 36 times
 Topic: Suggestions
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randyf (381)

Location:  USA, Ohio
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In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  In Suggestions, randyf writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:

  But Bricklink has not adopted the LEGO colour names as of yet.

They have for those colors you are talking about. That is the point. You were
complaining about "Medium" being an inconsistent qualifier for a color. Well,
BrickLink didn't create that inconsistency. LEGO did. So as I said before,
if you want to complain about "Medium" being an inconsistent qualifier, don't
blame BrickLink.

Besides the Lavender issue, which I also mentioned, Bricklink had a consistent
"medium" qualifier.

  
  I really took the time to explain it quite elaborately and I don't feel like
repeating it. I was fully aware of the problems with the LEGO names and I was
talking about a tradeoff inherent to both ways to go, and this step only made
it less clear while a the same time we haven't gained full consistency with
LEGO.

So, are you for becoming consistent with LEGO or staying inconsistent with
LEGO?

It's not the actual topic but I prefer that it would be consistent at some
point. Ideally by adopting the BL names, but I doubt that will happen.

  You are arguing both sides of the coin. If we make all colors LEGO names,
then you are complaining you would like to have some changed to remove LEGO's
use of the inconsistent use of the qualifier "Medium". However, if we do that,
then BrickLink is once again inconsistent with LEGO. And the colors to me
are just as clear as they were before. It is your opinion (and some others) that
they are less clear, so don't act like it is a fact.

I said both are fine. Both options make Bricklink easier to learn: Either new
users not having to learn new colours, or new users intuitively understanding
the colour names.
  
  And there's no such thing as the colour table being "a bit consistent"
- it is still just inconsistent. We went from inconsistent to inconsistent and
intuitively a little less clear.

Exactly. It has always been inconsistent with itself and with LEGO. So what is
new? You just can't get past your opinion that it is less clear. And it is
just that. An opinion.

What is new is that the "medium" word on Bricklink is now misleading if you look
at medium blue etc.

  
  
  
  Either way, the fact is
that we went from a situation where anyone without any prior knowledge could
guess which flesh/nougat colour is which,

  *Anyone*? I would like to see the data you used to form that statement.

Sure, I will ask a few friends. I think they will get it right, but let's
see.

Go for it, and have fun. I will even help you. Take the below image and ask anyone
at random to label the following colors on the image: "Light Flesh", "Flesh",
"Medium Dark Flesh", and "Dark Flesh". Let me know how many get 100% correct.
Then ask them to label "Light Nougat", "Nougat", "Dark Nougat", and "Medium Brown".
Let me know again how many get 100% correct. I would bet that almost no one will
get 100% on either test. So, is it really less intuitive? I think they are both
the same level of unintuitive. Labeling colors always gets less intuitive the
larger the color palette you have in front of you.

I'm talking about the flesh/nougat colours, specifically about Medium Dark
Nougat. Of course colours are hard, this will never change. You are right nobody
will identify a whole range of beige/brown colours correctly by their names.
But in the old situation it seems very clear to me that the order from light
to dark is: "light flesh, flesh, medium dark flesh, dark flesh". I think this
makes intuitive sense to anyone. However, "light nougat, nougat, medium nougat,
dark nougat" - not so much. If anything, looking at most "medium" colours, one
would expect "nougat" and "medium nougat" the other way around.

Again: Go fully consistent with LEGO and we lose the "medium" logic bug win consistency.
Go fully for sensical names and we lose consistency but win intuitive sense.
I think a choice needs to be made. Both are better than the current situation.
The background for my post is the fact that Bricklink is difficult to learn and
dauting for many casual AFOLs, and I just want as many orders as possible. You
are right colours always remain difficult to identify, but if we would have either
good consistent naming that makes sense, or the LEGO names that many new users
would already be familiar with, that would at least be a good start. Right now
we have neither, with some names being that way because it's a good name
and others being bad but they're that way to match Lego. That's just
not a good story to tell any new user.

I got you now. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

None of it is easy or intuitive. LEGO colors and LEGO part classification are
inherently complicated in modern times due to the explosion of colors on their
palette as well as the explosion of parts in their lineup. And it only gets more
complicated with time. Every subject has a learning curve, and selling and buying
LEGO is no different. There will never be full intuitiveness for everyone without
each individual having to put in some time to learn things. People put way too
much weight into new users being complete imbeciles, thus necessitating the need
to tailor everything to the lowest common denominator. It is part of the dumbing
down of society. New users should have *some* of the onus of learning the environments
they choose to frequent and inhabit.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Feb 3, 2020 15:34
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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 Topic: Suggestions
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StormChaser (372) 
(was bluser13161)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
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Store Closed Store: Store Name
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In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  You are right colours always remain difficult to identify, but if we would have either
good consistent naming that makes sense, or the LEGO names that many new users
would already be familiar with, that would at least be a good start. Right now
we have neither

The catalog roadmap includes a colors project (item 5):

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2476

Issues with colors and color names can be addressed if/when that project begins,
so don't give up on your thoughts regarding the usage of the word "medium."

I anticipate going through some of the roadmap projects during 2020 (hoping to
achieve around one per month) and the Catalog Roadmap page itself will be updated
within the next 24 hours.

As always, if you have suggestions for a large catalog project, please contact
a CA and describe your idea so that the project can be added to the list.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Feb 3, 2020 16:23
 Subject: Re: The Catalog Roadmap is Now Current
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 Topic: Suggestions
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StormChaser (372) 
(was bluser13161)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
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Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: Store Name
BrickLink Catalog Associate (?)
In Suggestions, StormChaser writes:
  the Catalog Roadmap page itself will be updated
within the next 24 hours.

And . . . it's done:

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2476
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Feb 3, 2020 16:49
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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Teup (4391)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: The T-workshop
In Suggestions, StormChaser writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  You are right colours always remain difficult to identify, but if we would have either
good consistent naming that makes sense, or the LEGO names that many new users
would already be familiar with, that would at least be a good start. Right now
we have neither

The catalog roadmap includes a colors project (item 5):

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2476

Issues with colors and color names can be addressed if/when that project begins,
so don't give up on your thoughts regarding the usage of the word "medium."

I anticipate going through some of the roadmap projects during 2020 (hoping to
achieve around one per month) and the Catalog Roadmap page itself will be updated
within the next 24 hours.

As always, if you have suggestions for a large catalog project, please contact
a CA and describe your idea so that the project can be added to the list.

Thanks, I appreciate it I would say a project would be to make colour names
consistent somehow
. Whether that means adopting LEGO's names, or making
the names logically consistent (fixed meanings for words like "medium"), or some
smart substantiated hybrid of the two, I don't have any preferences. As long
as it's not a random accident. I've seen good points by others about
it (seems there were serious downsides to adopting LEGO's names, too) so
I'm sure with that input something can be worked out.

There's just one thing I don't want, and that's some random colour
names motivated by consistency with LEGO and some other random ones motivated
by it being the most logical name, just because of the spur of the moment.

So I would like to put looking into that issue on the agenda. Any chosen direction
is fine by me, I'll just be here to share ideas and spot any inconsistencies


I wonder if LEGO could somehow be contacted to talk about possibilities of them
adopting BL names. Fat chance that's out of the question, but definitely
worth checking before proceeding. Who knows.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: Feb 3, 2020 16:57
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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StormChaser (372) 
(was bluser13161)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
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In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  So I would like to put looking into that issue on the agenda.

Your request is my command. And . . . it's done!

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2476

Item five on that list is now updated. Check to see that I have accurately represented
your position.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Feb 3, 2020 18:19
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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Teup (4391)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
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Store Closed Store: The T-workshop
In Suggestions, StormChaser writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  So I would like to put looking into that issue on the agenda.

Your request is my command. And . . . it's done!

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2476

Item five on that list is now updated. Check to see that I have accurately represented
your position.

Great! Clearly you're better with capturing things in short descriptions
than I am
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Feb 3, 2020 17:39
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  […]
Besides the Lavender issue, which I also mentioned, Bricklink had a consistent
"medium" qualifier.
[…]
What is new is that the "medium" word on Bricklink is now misleading if you look
at medium blue etc.
[…]
I'm talking about the flesh/nougat colours, specifically about Medium Dark
Nougat. Of course colours are hard, this will never change. You are right nobody
will identify a whole range of beige/brown colours correctly by their names.
But in the old situation it seems very clear to me that the order from light
to dark is: "light flesh, flesh, medium dark flesh, dark flesh". I think this
makes intuitive sense to anyone. However, "light nougat, nougat, medium nougat,
dark nougat" - not so much. If anything, looking at most "medium" colours, one
would expect "nougat" and "medium nougat" the other way around.

I believe the confusion and inconsistency are caused by the difference in nature
between “Light” and “Dark” on one side and “Medium” on the other.
“Light” and “Dark” are (more often) relative modificators while “Medium” is absolute.

“Light X” is lighter than colour “X”, “Dark X” is darker than colour “X.”
“Medium X” is not relative to colour “X” but is “medium” in the “X” hue.

IOW, “Dark X” is the colour named “X” in the shadows, and “Light X” is the colour
named “X” under the sun, but “Medium X” is the same hue as “X” but with (around)
a 50% lighting. And if the colour named “X” is the “X” hue with 40% lighting,
“Medium X” will be lighter than “X”, while if “X” is the “X” hue with 70% lighting,
“Medium X” will be darker than “X.”

So, when you look at all the colours and induce that “Medium” means “darker than
‘Light’ but lighter than the colour of the same name,” it’s logical you also
find a couple of confusing exceptions when “Medium” doesn’t mean that.

Of course, this is compounded with the use of a natural language: the adjectives
are applied by “feeling” (“au doigt mouillé”) and not according to objective
values (like luminance) but I’ll try to find the time to check that hypotesis
(that “Medium” means medium luminance).
 Author: chetzler View Messages Posted By chetzler
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 09:21
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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 Topic: Suggestions
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chetzler (1431)

Location:  USA, Minnesota
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Feb 12, 2005 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Lost Boys' Brick Shop
In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  The recent colour name changes seem a little inconsistent to me. In my mind there
are 3 ways to go:

1. Leave it as it is
2. Change the word "flesh" to "nougat" because you think it is racist (assuming
here that was the reason - official communication about it is very vague)
3. Adopt all LEGO colour names

Instead, now we have option 2 with a little bit of 3: The word "flesh" has changed
into "nougat", but we now have the official LEGO name for Medium Dark Flesh:
Medium Nougat.

The Bricklink word "medium" means "lighter": Medium Blue, Medium Orange, Medium
Green, Medium Brown, Medium Dark Pink are all lighter than their non-medium counterparts
(Exception here seems Lavender and Medium Lavender - I'd suggest making a
change there)

The LEGO word "medium" does not seem to mean that. I looked at the colour chart
and it seems a hopelessly inconsistent word. Medium Nougat is slightly darker
than Nougat, not lighter. That's unfortunate, but that is the way it is.
Nothing that can't be learned by heart, I guess.


I think Bricklink can go in two directions:

Keep its own good naming convention where "medium" is a meaningful word that
means "lighter"
(and as a tradeoff, it will not be consistent with LEGO names)

OR

Adopt ALL LEGO names for all colours (and as a tradeoff, the word "medium"
becomes inconsistent)

Right now we're kind of getting the worst of both worlds: Not adopted the
LEGO names but still made the word "medium" inconsistent. "Medium" seems to mean
"somehow different, but you gotta check out the colour guide to find out how
exactly". "Nougat" and "Medium Nougat" are just as meaningful as names as "Nougat
1" and "Nougat 2".

So my suggestion: Please keep the word "medium" meaningful, by keeping "medium
dark nougat" (and optionally, keeping "dark nougat" for "medium brown"). Alternatively,
adopt all LEGO colours across the board.

(the bonus of the latter option is that "Trans Dark Blue" will finally be called
"Trans Blue" - my personal pet peeve )

I know you're not encouraging the adoption of LEGO names but please don't
even suggest it in passing--it would be a disaster. The LEGO names are a
hodge-podge of meaningless and sometimes counterintuitive adjectives.

Has anyone thought of approaching this from the other direction? Now that LEGO
owns BrickLink maybe we should be encouraging TLG to adopt BL color names. I
would wager that BrickLinkers (and AFOLs in general) are much more attached to
BL color names; moreso than anyone at LEGO is attached to the TLG color names.

LEGO bought BL because they saw some value in it, but maybe they need help in
understanding where some of that value lies. There is clearly a power imbalance
between BL and TLG, but that doesn't mean we can't try to influence and
infuse TLG with the better aspects BL cultue instead of worrying about what TLG
is going to impose on BL.

Unifying color names between between BL and TLG using BrickLink standards would
be a huge win from a logistical perspective, but it would also be an enormous
moral victory for a community that has been abused and dismissed for years.
 Author: StarBrick View Messages Posted By StarBrick
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 10:43
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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StarBrick (5330)

Location:  Netherlands, Gelderland
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Store: StarBrick's BrickShop
In Suggestions, chetzler writes:
  
LEGO bought BL because they saw some value in it, but maybe they need help in
understanding where some of that value lies. There is clearly a power imbalance
between BL and TLG, but that doesn't mean we can't try to influence and
infuse TLG with the better aspects BL cultue instead of worrying about what TLG
is going to impose on BL.

Unifying color names between BL and TLG using BrickLink standards would
be a huge win from a logistical perspective, but it would also be an enormous
moral victory for a community that has been abused and dismissed for years.

+10!!! Support this please!!
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 11:17
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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 Topic: Suggestions
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Teup (4391)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: The T-workshop
In Suggestions, chetzler writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  The recent colour name changes seem a little inconsistent to me. In my mind there
are 3 ways to go:

1. Leave it as it is
2. Change the word "flesh" to "nougat" because you think it is racist (assuming
here that was the reason - official communication about it is very vague)
3. Adopt all LEGO colour names

Instead, now we have option 2 with a little bit of 3: The word "flesh" has changed
into "nougat", but we now have the official LEGO name for Medium Dark Flesh:
Medium Nougat.

The Bricklink word "medium" means "lighter": Medium Blue, Medium Orange, Medium
Green, Medium Brown, Medium Dark Pink are all lighter than their non-medium counterparts
(Exception here seems Lavender and Medium Lavender - I'd suggest making a
change there)

The LEGO word "medium" does not seem to mean that. I looked at the colour chart
and it seems a hopelessly inconsistent word. Medium Nougat is slightly darker
than Nougat, not lighter. That's unfortunate, but that is the way it is.
Nothing that can't be learned by heart, I guess.


I think Bricklink can go in two directions:

Keep its own good naming convention where "medium" is a meaningful word that
means "lighter"
(and as a tradeoff, it will not be consistent with LEGO names)

OR

Adopt ALL LEGO names for all colours (and as a tradeoff, the word "medium"
becomes inconsistent)

Right now we're kind of getting the worst of both worlds: Not adopted the
LEGO names but still made the word "medium" inconsistent. "Medium" seems to mean
"somehow different, but you gotta check out the colour guide to find out how
exactly". "Nougat" and "Medium Nougat" are just as meaningful as names as "Nougat
1" and "Nougat 2".

So my suggestion: Please keep the word "medium" meaningful, by keeping "medium
dark nougat" (and optionally, keeping "dark nougat" for "medium brown"). Alternatively,
adopt all LEGO colours across the board.

(the bonus of the latter option is that "Trans Dark Blue" will finally be called
"Trans Blue" - my personal pet peeve )

I know you're not encouraging the adoption of LEGO names but please don't
even suggest it in passing--it would be a disaster. The LEGO names are a
hodge-podge of meaningless and sometimes counterintuitive adjectives.

Has anyone thought of approaching this from the other direction? Now that LEGO
owns BrickLink maybe we should be encouraging TLG to adopt BL color names. I
would wager that BrickLinkers (and AFOLs in general) are much more attached to
BL color names; moreso than anyone at LEGO is attached to the TLG color names.

LEGO bought BL because they saw some value in it, but maybe they need help in
understanding where some of that value lies. There is clearly a power imbalance
between BL and TLG, but that doesn't mean we can't try to influence and
infuse TLG with the better aspects BL cultue instead of worrying about what TLG
is going to impose on BL.

Unifying color names between between BL and TLG using BrickLink standards would
be a huge win from a logistical perspective, but it would also be an enormous
moral victory for a community that has been abused and dismissed for years.

100% agree Bricklink names are way more logical and consistent. When I considered
it a dilemma between logic and universality, it didn't come to my mind that
TLG could actually adopt the BL colour names. That would be best of both worlds,
we'd have logic AND universality! It's just that it doesn't seem
realistic to me at this point that TLG would actually do that..... but hopefully
I am wrong. Because yes, that would be great.
 Author: popsicle View Messages Posted By popsicle
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 13:48
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popsicle (5754)

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 Author: chetzler View Messages Posted By chetzler
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 14:52
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chetzler (1431)

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 Author: randyf View Messages Posted By randyf
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 14:00
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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randyf (381)

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In Suggestions, chetzler writes:

  Has anyone thought of approaching this from the other direction? Now that LEGO
owns BrickLink maybe we should be encouraging TLG to adopt BL color names. I
would wager that BrickLinkers (and AFOLs in general) are much more attached to
BL color names; moreso than anyone at LEGO is attached to the TLG color names.

LEGO bought BL because they saw some value in it, but maybe they need help in
understanding where some of that value lies. There is clearly a power imbalance
between BL and TLG, but that doesn't mean we can't try to influence and
infuse TLG with the better aspects BL cultue instead of worrying about what TLG
is going to impose on BL.

Unifying color names between between BL and TLG using BrickLink standards would
be a huge win from a logistical perspective, but it would also be an enormous
moral victory for a community that has been abused and dismissed for years.

Now this is an idea that I had not thought about and that I could get behind.
I am not sure that it would happen, but it is a very good idea. It would be really
nice to actually see a color harmonization project between BrickLink and LEGO
that adopts the best from both sides.

Cheers,
Randy
 Author: WoutR View Messages Posted By WoutR
 Posted: Feb 2, 2020 14:09
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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WoutR (698)

Location:  Netherlands, Zuid-Holland
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In Suggestions, randyf writes:
  In Suggestions, chetzler writes:

  Has anyone thought of approaching this from the other direction? Now that LEGO
owns BrickLink maybe we should be encouraging TLG to adopt BL color names. I
would wager that BrickLinkers (and AFOLs in general) are much more attached to
BL color names; moreso than anyone at LEGO is attached to the TLG color names.

LEGO bought BL because they saw some value in it, but maybe they need help in
understanding where some of that value lies. There is clearly a power imbalance
between BL and TLG, but that doesn't mean we can't try to influence and
infuse TLG with the better aspects BL cultue instead of worrying about what TLG
is going to impose on BL.

Unifying color names between between BL and TLG using BrickLink standards would
be a huge win from a logistical perspective, but it would also be an enormous
moral victory for a community that has been abused and dismissed for years.

Now this is an idea that I had not thought about and that I could get behind.
I am not sure that it would happen, but it is a very good idea. It would be really
nice to actually see a color harmonization project between BrickLink and LEGO
that adopts the best from both sides.

Cheers,
Randy

There are a LOT of missing DesignID's and ElementID's in our catalog
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Feb 3, 2020 04:13
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yorbrick (719)

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 Author: bricksinbins View Messages Posted By bricksinbins
 Posted: Feb 3, 2020 08:30
 Subject: Re: Change Medium Nougat to Medium Dark Nougat
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bricksinbins (777)

Location:  Finland, Pohjanmaa
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In Suggestions, chetzler writes:
  In Suggestions, Teup writes:
  The recent colour name changes seem a little inconsistent to me. In my mind there
are 3 ways to go:

1. Leave it as it is
2. Change the word "flesh" to "nougat" because you think it is racist (assuming
here that was the reason - official communication about it is very vague)
3. Adopt all LEGO colour names

Instead, now we have option 2 with a little bit of 3: The word "flesh" has changed
into "nougat", but we now have the official LEGO name for Medium Dark Flesh:
Medium Nougat.

The Bricklink word "medium" means "lighter": Medium Blue, Medium Orange, Medium
Green, Medium Brown, Medium Dark Pink are all lighter than their non-medium counterparts
(Exception here seems Lavender and Medium Lavender - I'd suggest making a
change there)

The LEGO word "medium" does not seem to mean that. I looked at the colour chart
and it seems a hopelessly inconsistent word. Medium Nougat is slightly darker
than Nougat, not lighter. That's unfortunate, but that is the way it is.
Nothing that can't be learned by heart, I guess.


I think Bricklink can go in two directions:

Keep its own good naming convention where "medium" is a meaningful word that
means "lighter"
(and as a tradeoff, it will not be consistent with LEGO names)

OR

Adopt ALL LEGO names for all colours (and as a tradeoff, the word "medium"
becomes inconsistent)

Right now we're kind of getting the worst of both worlds: Not adopted the
LEGO names but still made the word "medium" inconsistent. "Medium" seems to mean
"somehow different, but you gotta check out the colour guide to find out how
exactly". "Nougat" and "Medium Nougat" are just as meaningful as names as "Nougat
1" and "Nougat 2".

So my suggestion: Please keep the word "medium" meaningful, by keeping "medium
dark nougat" (and optionally, keeping "dark nougat" for "medium brown"). Alternatively,
adopt all LEGO colours across the board.

(the bonus of the latter option is that "Trans Dark Blue" will finally be called
"Trans Blue" - my personal pet peeve )

I know you're not encouraging the adoption of LEGO names but please don't
even suggest it in passing--it would be a disaster. The LEGO names are a
hodge-podge of meaningless and sometimes counterintuitive adjectives.

Has anyone thought of approaching this from the other direction? Now that LEGO
owns BrickLink maybe we should be encouraging TLG to adopt BL color names. I
would wager that BrickLinkers (and AFOLs in general) are much more attached to
BL color names; moreso than anyone at LEGO is attached to the TLG color names.

LEGO bought BL because they saw some value in it, but maybe they need help in
understanding where some of that value lies. There is clearly a power imbalance
between BL and TLG, but that doesn't mean we can't try to influence and
infuse TLG with the better aspects BL cultue instead of worrying about what TLG
is going to impose on BL.

Unifying color names between between BL and TLG using BrickLink standards would
be a huge win from a logistical perspective, but it would also be an enormous
moral victory for a community that has been abused and dismissed for years.

Yeah well, keep dreaming. Things really only go one way and I don't think
it should be difficult for anybody to understand which way that is.