Discussion Forum: Thread 259540

 Author: Shintaku View Messages Posted By Shintaku
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 06:17
 Subject: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 335 times
 Topic: Selling
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Shintaku (2034)

Location:  Italy, Lombardia
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Jan 17, 2011 Contact Member Seller
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Store: 06 PIZZABRICK -SAVE-
Hello,

I acknowledge I am writing this out of pure frustration, so please forgive me
in advance.

So that's the fact: you can write pretty terms and conditions, covering all
the cases you have in mind, you'll always find buyers that do not care at
all of the time you wasted writing and updating them, they will place an order
and act surprised when you point out that they are not abiding to your terms.

My last case was the worst I had in 9 years of selling.
A buyer from Switzerland asks to buy with a Bank Transfer 50€ worth of bricks+shipping.
That's fine, I allow bank transfers provided the buyer covers ALL the commissions.
My paypal fee is ZERO, but bank commissions are so variable that I can't
give them for free.
Obviously that's written in the terms.
Obviously this buyer sends me 50€ which become 35€ after the bank sucks 15€ out
of commissions because he charged me as the bearer.
After several emails in which I explain, in a kind way, this customer that I
won't ship unless he finds a way to compensate the missing 15€, the user
wants to walk away with that with a "Ok let's cancel and refund." even if
I explained that if I were to send him again the money, I'd send 35€ not
50€ so he wasted 15€ for nothing. It would have been better if he found some
way to compensate me the difference thus letting me ship the items.

Again obviously, I have a condition that orders are not cancellable unless severe
reasons happens.
But he doesn't care.

Then, to end it up, we arrived to a NPX situation. I gave him back the money,
but of course since I am a correct person, I didn't give him back (35€ -
the commissions =) 20€. I gave him back the 35€.

Which means that I paid 50€ again, losing 15€ in the process because I, differently
from this person, am an honest seller. I don't make it a living out of the
small sales I have, but I have a moral standard that is separated from my bricklink
activity.

But then I'm frustrated. I just want to play fair and honest, and I lose
15€ for absolutely nothing.
Yes, I have recurring customers loving the way I deal with them (discounts, no
paypal fees, careful packaging, 6 shipping days per week, etc) but every time
someone comes and disregards totally your work, that makes me feel sad and I
need to have advice from better sellers on how to deal with this situations.

Thanks for reading whoever put an effort to do it.
 Author: Baarlo_Bricks View Messages Posted By Baarlo_Bricks
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 06:58
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 91 times
 Topic: Selling
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Baarlo_Bricks (1006)

Location:  Netherlands, Limburg
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jun 5, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Baarlo Bricks!
In Selling, Shintaku writes:
  Hello,

I acknowledge I am writing this out of pure frustration, so please forgive me
in advance.

So that's the fact: you can write pretty terms and conditions, covering all
the cases you have in mind, you'll always find buyers that do not care at
all of the time you wasted writing and updating them, they will place an order
and act surprised when you point out that they are not abiding to your terms.

My last case was the worst I had in 9 years of selling.
A buyer from Switzerland asks to buy with a Bank Transfer 50€ worth of bricks+shipping.
That's fine, I allow bank transfers provided the buyer covers ALL the commissions.
My paypal fee is ZERO, but bank commissions are so variable that I can't
give them for free.
Obviously that's written in the terms.
Obviously this buyer sends me 50€ which become 35€ after the bank sucks 15€ out
of commissions because he charged me as the bearer.
After several emails in which I explain, in a kind way, this customer that I
won't ship unless he finds a way to compensate the missing 15€, the user
wants to walk away with that with a "Ok let's cancel and refund." even if
I explained that if I were to send him again the money, I'd send 35€ not
50€ so he wasted 15€ for nothing. It would have been better if he found some
way to compensate me the difference thus letting me ship the items.

Again obviously, I have a condition that orders are not cancellable unless severe
reasons happens.
But he doesn't care.

Then, to end it up, we arrived to a NPX situation. I gave him back the money,
but of course since I am a correct person, I didn't give him back (35€ -
the commissions =) 20€. I gave him back the 35€.

Which means that I paid 50€ again, losing 15€ in the process because I, differently
from this person, am an honest seller. I don't make it a living out of the
small sales I have, but I have a moral standard that is separated from my bricklink
activity.

But then I'm frustrated. I just want to play fair and honest, and I lose
15€ for absolutely nothing.
Yes, I have recurring customers loving the way I deal with them (discounts, no
paypal fees, careful packaging, 6 shipping days per week, etc) but every time
someone comes and disregards totally your work, that makes me feel sad and I
need to have advice from better sellers on how to deal with this situations.

Thanks for reading whoever put an effort to do it.

Isn't it also your own responsibility to find out what the additional costs
are and include them in additional charges? I never had an IBAN with extra costs
from Switzerland btw. I did have it from Australia, but charged 7 euro extra
(which it did cost) and which was fine for the buyer.

Now you let him pay, then see there are costs. And then reclaim them. Which makes
the initial invoice you send not correct. Now you charge the buyer later with
15 euro extra. You should have done that at the first invoice.
 Author: mikmo View Messages Posted By mikmo
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 07:08
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 64 times
 Topic: Selling
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mikmo (1067)

Location:  Denmark
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jul 15, 2014 Contact Member Seller
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Store: MikMo
Very unplesant situation.

You did more than could be expected.

You should consider using IBAN in stead of bank transfers.

maybe Schwitzerland does not have IBAN ?

I have many german and dutch buyes that pay with IBAN, it is free of fees, but
does take two or three days to arrive.

Mikael / MikMo
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 07:40
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 58 times
 Topic: Selling
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
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In Selling, mikmo writes:
  Very unplesant situation.

You did more than could be expected.

You should consider using IBAN in stead of bank transfers.

This again

Please explain the difference between what you call “IBAN” and what you call
“bank transfer.”


  maybe Schwitzerland does not have IBAN ?

Switzerland is part of SEPA (Single Euro Payment Area).
That means they are integrated in the SEPA banking system and can transfer money
within the SEPA (via “IBAN” or “bank transfer” or “SEPA transfer,” spoiler for
the previous question: they are the same thing).
That doesn’t mean their banks can’t charge for transfering money.
That doesn’t mean their banks can’t charge for converting money (CHF to EUR).

The same applies to Italian banks.
The same applies to any bank in the SEPA.


  I have many german and dutch buyes that pay with IBAN, it is free of fees, but
does take two or three days to arrive.
 Author: mikmo View Messages Posted By mikmo
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 16:57
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
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mikmo (1067)

Location:  Denmark
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jul 15, 2014 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: MikMo
In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
  In Selling, mikmo writes:
  Very unplesant situation.

You did more than could be expected.

You should consider using IBAN in stead of bank transfers.

This again

Please explain the difference between what you call “IBAN” and what you call
“bank transfer.”


  maybe Schwitzerland does not have IBAN ?

Switzerland is part of SEPA (Single Euro Payment Area).
That means they are integrated in the SEPA banking system and can transfer money
within the SEPA (via “IBAN” or “bank transfer” or “SEPA transfer,” spoiler for
the previous question: they are the same thing).
That doesn’t mean their banks can’t charge for transfering money.
That doesn’t mean their banks can’t charge for converting money (CHF to EUR).

The same applies to Italian banks.
The same applies to any bank in the SEPA.


I have never been charged a fee for receiving an IBAN payment.
No matter what currency it was paid in.

Mikael / MikMo
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 18:21
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 32 times
 Topic: Selling
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Selling, mikmo writes:
  In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
  In Selling, mikmo writes:
  Very unplesant situation.

You did more than could be expected.

You should consider using IBAN in stead of bank transfers.

This again

Please explain the difference between what you call “IBAN” and what you call
“bank transfer.”


  maybe Schwitzerland does not have IBAN ?

Switzerland is part of SEPA (Single Euro Payment Area).
That means they are integrated in the SEPA banking system and can transfer money
within the SEPA (via “IBAN” or “bank transfer” or “SEPA transfer,” spoiler for
the previous question: they are the same thing).
That doesn’t mean their banks can’t charge for transfering money.
That doesn’t mean their banks can’t charge for converting money (CHF to EUR).

The same applies to Italian banks.
The same applies to any bank in the SEPA.


I have never been charged a fee for receiving an IBAN payment.
No matter what currency it was paid in.

Lucky you.

But that’s anecdotal evidence (of a negative proposition: the absence of fees)
and we already have anecdotal evidence of the contrary (a positive: people got
burnt).

So, what are we to believe? Anecdotes (going one way or the other) or explanations
or how things actually work according to international standards and laws?
 Author: Thomaswt View Messages Posted By Thomaswt
 Posted: Nov 9, 2019 05:10
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 42 times
 Topic: Selling
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Thomaswt (1116)

Location:  Denmark
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 28, 2012 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Danish BrickSupply
In Selling, mikmo writes:

  
I have never been charged a fee for receiving an IBAN payment.
No matter what currency it was paid in.

Mikael / MikMo

Lucky you. Danske Bank (the biggest bank in Denmark) charges a 50 DKK / 6,69
EUR fee for handling IBAN.
 Author: buildingfactory View Messages Posted By buildingfactory
 Posted: Nov 9, 2019 05:21
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
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buildingfactory (1842)

Location:  Germany, Nordrhein-Westfalen
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 18, 2009 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Building Factory
" Share" (SHA): The costs are shared between the beneficiary and the issuer
of the payment, at each transaction: the costs of the issuing bank are borne
by the one sending the funds, the costs of the intermediary and beneficiary banks
will be deducted from the amount and therefore borne by the beneficiary. The
more institutions involved, the higher the costs will be. This system is used
for about 60% of market transactions.

"Ben" (BEN): the transaction costs are invoiced to the payment beneficiary,
as a deduction from the payment amount. This system is not very widespread and
accounts for only 10% of market transactions.

"Our" (OUR): the issuer of the payment chooses to cover all costs. This ensures
that the beneficiary receives the full payment. This model represents about 30%
of market transactions.




In Selling, Thomaswt writes:
  In Selling, mikmo writes:

  
I have never been charged a fee for receiving an IBAN payment.
No matter what currency it was paid in.

Mikael / MikMo

Lucky you. Danske Bank (the biggest bank in Denmark) charges a 50 DKK / 6,69
EUR fee for handling IBAN.
 Author: mwright5 View Messages Posted By mwright5
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 07:09
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 62 times
 Topic: Selling
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mwright5 (1994)

Location:  USA, Virginia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Aug 28, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Brickwright Shop
In Selling, Baarlo_Bricks writes:
  In Selling, Shintaku writes:
  Hello,

I acknowledge I am writing this out of pure frustration, so please forgive me
in advance.

So that's the fact: you can write pretty terms and conditions, covering all
the cases you have in mind, you'll always find buyers that do not care at
all of the time you wasted writing and updating them, they will place an order
and act surprised when you point out that they are not abiding to your terms.

My last case was the worst I had in 9 years of selling.
A buyer from Switzerland asks to buy with a Bank Transfer 50€ worth of bricks+shipping.
That's fine, I allow bank transfers provided the buyer covers ALL the commissions.
My paypal fee is ZERO, but bank commissions are so variable that I can't
give them for free.
Obviously that's written in the terms.
Obviously this buyer sends me 50€ which become 35€ after the bank sucks 15€ out
of commissions because he charged me as the bearer.
After several emails in which I explain, in a kind way, this customer that I
won't ship unless he finds a way to compensate the missing 15€, the user
wants to walk away with that with a "Ok let's cancel and refund." even if
I explained that if I were to send him again the money, I'd send 35€ not
50€ so he wasted 15€ for nothing. It would have been better if he found some
way to compensate me the difference thus letting me ship the items.

Again obviously, I have a condition that orders are not cancellable unless severe
reasons happens.
But he doesn't care.

Then, to end it up, we arrived to a NPX situation. I gave him back the money,
but of course since I am a correct person, I didn't give him back (35€ -
the commissions =) 20€. I gave him back the 35€.

Which means that I paid 50€ again, losing 15€ in the process because I, differently
from this person, am an honest seller. I don't make it a living out of the
small sales I have, but I have a moral standard that is separated from my bricklink
activity.

But then I'm frustrated. I just want to play fair and honest, and I lose
15€ for absolutely nothing.
Yes, I have recurring customers loving the way I deal with them (discounts, no
paypal fees, careful packaging, 6 shipping days per week, etc) but every time
someone comes and disregards totally your work, that makes me feel sad and I
need to have advice from better sellers on how to deal with this situations.

Thanks for reading whoever put an effort to do it.

Isn't it also your own responsibility to find out what the additional costs
are and include them in additional charges? I never had an IBAN with extra costs
from Switzerland btw. I did have it from Australia, but charged 7 euro extra
(which it did cost) and which was fine for the buyer.

Now you let him pay, then see there are costs. And then reclaim them. Which makes
the initial invoice you send not correct. Now you charge the buyer later with
15 euro extra. You should have done that at the first invoice.

+1 and also, is it worth the hassle to allow bank transfers? Are that many people
using those to make it worth your time? There are so many other ways to pay that
are hassle free.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 07:18
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 56 times
 Topic: Selling
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Teup (4198)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: The T-workshop
In Selling, mwright5 writes:
  In Selling, Baarlo_Bricks writes:
  In Selling, Shintaku writes:
  Hello,

I acknowledge I am writing this out of pure frustration, so please forgive me
in advance.

So that's the fact: you can write pretty terms and conditions, covering all
the cases you have in mind, you'll always find buyers that do not care at
all of the time you wasted writing and updating them, they will place an order
and act surprised when you point out that they are not abiding to your terms.

My last case was the worst I had in 9 years of selling.
A buyer from Switzerland asks to buy with a Bank Transfer 50€ worth of bricks+shipping.
That's fine, I allow bank transfers provided the buyer covers ALL the commissions.
My paypal fee is ZERO, but bank commissions are so variable that I can't
give them for free.
Obviously that's written in the terms.
Obviously this buyer sends me 50€ which become 35€ after the bank sucks 15€ out
of commissions because he charged me as the bearer.
After several emails in which I explain, in a kind way, this customer that I
won't ship unless he finds a way to compensate the missing 15€, the user
wants to walk away with that with a "Ok let's cancel and refund." even if
I explained that if I were to send him again the money, I'd send 35€ not
50€ so he wasted 15€ for nothing. It would have been better if he found some
way to compensate me the difference thus letting me ship the items.

Again obviously, I have a condition that orders are not cancellable unless severe
reasons happens.
But he doesn't care.

Then, to end it up, we arrived to a NPX situation. I gave him back the money,
but of course since I am a correct person, I didn't give him back (35€ -
the commissions =) 20€. I gave him back the 35€.

Which means that I paid 50€ again, losing 15€ in the process because I, differently
from this person, am an honest seller. I don't make it a living out of the
small sales I have, but I have a moral standard that is separated from my bricklink
activity.

But then I'm frustrated. I just want to play fair and honest, and I lose
15€ for absolutely nothing.
Yes, I have recurring customers loving the way I deal with them (discounts, no
paypal fees, careful packaging, 6 shipping days per week, etc) but every time
someone comes and disregards totally your work, that makes me feel sad and I
need to have advice from better sellers on how to deal with this situations.

Thanks for reading whoever put an effort to do it.

Isn't it also your own responsibility to find out what the additional costs
are and include them in additional charges? I never had an IBAN with extra costs
from Switzerland btw. I did have it from Australia, but charged 7 euro extra
(which it did cost) and which was fine for the buyer.

Now you let him pay, then see there are costs. And then reclaim them. Which makes
the initial invoice you send not correct. Now you charge the buyer later with
15 euro extra. You should have done that at the first invoice.

+1 and also, is it worth the hassle to allow bank transfers? Are that many people
using those to make it worth your time? There are so many other ways to pay that
are hassle free.

Maybe hassle free, but not free
Most of my orders are bank transfer payments. It's definitely my preferred
method.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 07:51
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 49 times
 Topic: Selling
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yorbrick (698)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Yorbricks
  
  +1 and also, is it worth the hassle to allow bank transfers? Are that many people
using those to make it worth your time? There are so many other ways to pay that
are hassle free.

Maybe hassle free, but not free
Most of my orders are bank transfer payments. It's definitely my preferred
method.

The thing here is - allow bank transfers that are free (and hassle free) but
do not allow those bank transfers that are not free, as often the prices for
bank transfers are incredibly high compared to paypal if international (or from
outside EU or involve currency conversion).

I allow UK buyers to pay by bank transfer. I don't allow EU or US buyers
to, as they are expensive, unknown costs to me and often slow. They are also
expensive to reverse if the buyer needs refunding. UK ones are free, quick and
easy.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 09:18
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
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Teup (4198)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: The T-workshop
In Selling, yorbrick writes:
  
  
  +1 and also, is it worth the hassle to allow bank transfers? Are that many people
using those to make it worth your time? There are so many other ways to pay that
are hassle free.

Maybe hassle free, but not free
Most of my orders are bank transfer payments. It's definitely my preferred
method.

The thing here is - allow bank transfers that are free (and hassle free) but
do not allow those bank transfers that are not free, as often the prices for
bank transfers are incredibly high compared to paypal if international (or from
outside EU or involve currency conversion).

I allow UK buyers to pay by bank transfer. I don't allow EU or US buyers
to, as they are expensive, unknown costs to me and often slow. They are also
expensive to reverse if the buyer needs refunding. UK ones are free, quick and
easy.

That's definitely true. I wish we could set countries for payment methods,
the same way we can for shipping methods. Now I just have to rely on the buyer's
wisdom not to pick something foolish..
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 09:38
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 49 times
 Topic: Selling
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Selling, Teup writes:
  […]
Now I just have to rely on the buyer's wisdom not to pick something foolish..

“Hello!

I live on the other side of the planet (but it’s very near you when I carefully
fold the map!) and I would like to pay you in services, like washing your lawn,
walking your car, or mowing your dog.

Very eager to be your future buyer
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 13:17
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
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Teup (4198)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: The T-workshop
In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
  In Selling, Teup writes:
  […]
Now I just have to rely on the buyer's wisdom not to pick something foolish..

“Hello!

I live on the other side of the planet (but it’s very near you when I carefully
fold the map!) and I would like to pay you in services, like washing your lawn,
walking your car, or mowing your dog.

Very eager to be your future buyer

Yeah.. no can do, the tax agency has annual themes that they check extra on,
this years theme is foreigners illegally mowing the dog
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 11:50
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
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yorbrick (698)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 11, 2011 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Yorbricks
In Selling, Teup writes:
  In Selling, yorbrick writes:
  
  
  +1 and also, is it worth the hassle to allow bank transfers? Are that many people
using those to make it worth your time? There are so many other ways to pay that
are hassle free.

Maybe hassle free, but not free
Most of my orders are bank transfer payments. It's definitely my preferred
method.

The thing here is - allow bank transfers that are free (and hassle free) but
do not allow those bank transfers that are not free, as often the prices for
bank transfers are incredibly high compared to paypal if international (or from
outside EU or involve currency conversion).

I allow UK buyers to pay by bank transfer. I don't allow EU or US buyers
to, as they are expensive, unknown costs to me and often slow. They are also
expensive to reverse if the buyer needs refunding. UK ones are free, quick and
easy.

That's definitely true. I wish we could set countries for payment methods,
the same way we can for shipping methods. Now I just have to rely on the buyer's
wisdom not to pick something foolish..

Yes, it is OK for me as I can set a national one - I only accept bank payments
from people in the same country. Whereas I guess you would want to set it up
for only customers within the EU, so the same country bit doesn't work.

I'd do it by offering bank transfer internationally, along with a note saying
EU only and only give bank details if the customer is in the EU. But yes, it
is a bit of a faff. It would be so much better if payment methods were linked
to shipping methods, being able to restrict different payment methods depending
on the shipping method chosen.
 Author: Teup View Messages Posted By Teup
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 07:17
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 52 times
 Topic: Selling
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Teup (4198)

Location:  Netherlands, Utrecht
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 6, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: The T-workshop
In Selling, Baarlo_Bricks writes:
  In Selling, Shintaku writes:
  Hello,

I acknowledge I am writing this out of pure frustration, so please forgive me
in advance.

So that's the fact: you can write pretty terms and conditions, covering all
the cases you have in mind, you'll always find buyers that do not care at
all of the time you wasted writing and updating them, they will place an order
and act surprised when you point out that they are not abiding to your terms.

My last case was the worst I had in 9 years of selling.
A buyer from Switzerland asks to buy with a Bank Transfer 50€ worth of bricks+shipping.
That's fine, I allow bank transfers provided the buyer covers ALL the commissions.
My paypal fee is ZERO, but bank commissions are so variable that I can't
give them for free.
Obviously that's written in the terms.
Obviously this buyer sends me 50€ which become 35€ after the bank sucks 15€ out
of commissions because he charged me as the bearer.
After several emails in which I explain, in a kind way, this customer that I
won't ship unless he finds a way to compensate the missing 15€, the user
wants to walk away with that with a "Ok let's cancel and refund." even if
I explained that if I were to send him again the money, I'd send 35€ not
50€ so he wasted 15€ for nothing. It would have been better if he found some
way to compensate me the difference thus letting me ship the items.

Again obviously, I have a condition that orders are not cancellable unless severe
reasons happens.
But he doesn't care.

Then, to end it up, we arrived to a NPX situation. I gave him back the money,
but of course since I am a correct person, I didn't give him back (35€ -
the commissions =) 20€. I gave him back the 35€.

Which means that I paid 50€ again, losing 15€ in the process because I, differently
from this person, am an honest seller. I don't make it a living out of the
small sales I have, but I have a moral standard that is separated from my bricklink
activity.

But then I'm frustrated. I just want to play fair and honest, and I lose
15€ for absolutely nothing.
Yes, I have recurring customers loving the way I deal with them (discounts, no
paypal fees, careful packaging, 6 shipping days per week, etc) but every time
someone comes and disregards totally your work, that makes me feel sad and I
need to have advice from better sellers on how to deal with this situations.

Thanks for reading whoever put an effort to do it.

Isn't it also your own responsibility to find out what the additional costs
are and include them in additional charges? I never had an IBAN with extra costs
from Switzerland btw.

snip

Maybe this is a currency conversion thing? Maybe your buyer did have euros in
an account somehow? €15 to me sounds like a currency conversion fee. I had a
buyer from Sweden pay me by IBAN and we also lost €10 - no transaction costs
or anything like that (IBAN is often free), but just the currency thing.
Strangely, say the grand total was €50: I received €40 and also had -€10 on my
statement. I tought that should mean I received €30, but I called the bank and
they told me it's an exception situation and I should consider the "-€10"
as already included in that "€40" statement - just spelled out double. However,
afterwards I did some maths adding and substracting all transactions since my
annual report and found out that the €10 actually was charged double.
I called them again and got a refund. Bottomline: Seems like even banks don't
really know what they're doing with these costs.

I think this whole IBAN fee system is horribly outdated anyway, you can never
really know if there will be costs. "SHA" is the default option which is an archaic
term meaning "shared" costs which at least in the EU often means no costs, but
I guess you can never be quite sure. I am not even sure any other options still
exist. My bank doesn't allow me to choose anything.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 07:32
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 40 times
 Topic: Selling
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Selling, Baarlo_Bricks writes:
  […]
Isn't it also your own responsibility to find out what the additional costs
are and include them in additional charges? I never had an IBAN with extra costs
from Switzerland btw. I did have it from Australia, but charged 7 euro extra
(which it did cost) and which was fine for the buyer.

Now you let him pay, then see there are costs. And then reclaim them. Which makes
the initial invoice you send not correct. Now you charge the buyer later with
15 euro extra. You should have done that at the first invoice.

That’s possible only if the 15€ fee is always taken by Shintaku’s bank.

There are both sending and receiving fees and you can only now the receiving
fees because they are charged by your own bank.

There are three ways to make make a transfer:
1. all fees to sender,
2. all fees to receiver,
3. shared fees (each bank takes its fees from their customer).

If the sender fills the form with 2. or 3., receiver is screwed.

Now, there’s also the possibility that the bank form has been simplified (because
website) and there’s no choice for the sender.


And, as Teup says, let’s not forget there’s a possible conversion fee too. Both
ways again. (If you’re used to PayPal, it’s the same thing: when there’s a conversion,
they ask you if you want to pay X before conversion or the payee to receive X
after conversion.)
 Author: Shintaku View Messages Posted By Shintaku
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 07:41
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 48 times
 Topic: Selling
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Shintaku (2034)

Location:  Italy, Lombardia
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Jan 17, 2011 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: 06 PIZZABRICK -SAVE-
In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
  In Selling, Baarlo_Bricks writes:
  […]
Isn't it also your own responsibility to find out what the additional costs
are and include them in additional charges? I never had an IBAN with extra costs
from Switzerland btw. I did have it from Australia, but charged 7 euro extra
(which it did cost) and which was fine for the buyer.

Now you let him pay, then see there are costs. And then reclaim them. Which makes
the initial invoice you send not correct. Now you charge the buyer later with
15 euro extra. You should have done that at the first invoice.

That’s possible only if the 15€ fee is always taken by Shintaku’s bank.

There are both sending and receiving fees and you can only now the receiving
fees because they are charged by your own bank.

There are three ways to make make a transfer:
1. all fees to sender,
2. all fees to receiver,
3. shared fees (each bank takes its fees from their customer).

If the sender fills the form with 2. or 3., receiver is screwed.

Now, there’s also the possibility that the bank form has been simplified (because
website) and there’s no choice for the sender.


And, as Teup says, let’s not forget there’s a possible conversion fee too. Both
ways again. (If you’re used to PayPal, it’s the same thing: when there’s a conversion,
they ask you if you want to pay X before conversion or the payee to receive X
after conversion.)

Bonjour.

Yes, that's exactly what happened because the seller attached an xml document
called PACS.008 in which that was clearly specified: the commissions were all
upon me. He didn't even chose "SHA". I called my bank for confirmation and
they allowed me to see the PACS.008.
Now since that's a mistake from him, he should have worked the things out
someway, like for example asking a friend with paypal to help him out like I
suggested him.

Instead he exiged the money back and was unhelpful.
This was so depressing. He broke 2 of my terms and conditions in one order.
I mean, you are not forced to buy from my shop.
You don't like my T&C? You don't buy.
But buying and then being arrogant is simply unsettling.
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 08:02
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 33 times
 Topic: Selling
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SezaR (185)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
In Selling, Shintaku writes:
  In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
  In Selling, Baarlo_Bricks writes:
  […]
Isn't it also your own responsibility to find out what the additional costs
are and include them in additional charges? I never had an IBAN with extra costs
from Switzerland btw. I did have it from Australia, but charged 7 euro extra
(which it did cost) and which was fine for the buyer.

Now you let him pay, then see there are costs. And then reclaim them. Which makes
the initial invoice you send not correct. Now you charge the buyer later with
15 euro extra. You should have done that at the first invoice.

That’s possible only if the 15€ fee is always taken by Shintaku’s bank.

There are both sending and receiving fees and you can only now the receiving
fees because they are charged by your own bank.

There are three ways to make make a transfer:
1. all fees to sender,
2. all fees to receiver,
3. shared fees (each bank takes its fees from their customer).

If the sender fills the form with 2. or 3., receiver is screwed.

Now, there’s also the possibility that the bank form has been simplified (because
website) and there’s no choice for the sender.


And, as Teup says, let’s not forget there’s a possible conversion fee too. Both
ways again. (If you’re used to PayPal, it’s the same thing: when there’s a conversion,
they ask you if you want to pay X before conversion or the payee to receive X
after conversion.)

Bonjour.

Yes, that's exactly what happened because the seller attached an xml document
called PACS.008 in which that was clearly specified: the commissions were all
upon me. He didn't even chose "SHA". I called my bank for confirmation and
they allowed me to see the PACS.008.
Now since that's a mistake from him, he should have worked the things out
someway, like for example asking a friend with paypal to help him out like I
suggested him.

Instead he exiged the money back and was unhelpful.
This was so depressing. He broke 2 of my terms and conditions in one order.
I mean, you are not forced to buy from my shop.
You don't like my T&C? You don't buy.
But buying and then being arrogant is simply unsettling.

After you received only 35€, why didn't you file an NPB?
 Author: Shintaku View Messages Posted By Shintaku
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 08:14
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 63 times
 Topic: Selling
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Shintaku (2034)

Location:  Italy, Lombardia
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Jan 17, 2011 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: 06 PIZZABRICK -SAVE-
In Selling, SezaR writes:
  In Selling, Shintaku writes:
  In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
  In Selling, Baarlo_Bricks writes:
  […]
Isn't it also your own responsibility to find out what the additional costs
are and include them in additional charges? I never had an IBAN with extra costs
from Switzerland btw. I did have it from Australia, but charged 7 euro extra
(which it did cost) and which was fine for the buyer.

Now you let him pay, then see there are costs. And then reclaim them. Which makes
the initial invoice you send not correct. Now you charge the buyer later with
15 euro extra. You should have done that at the first invoice.

That’s possible only if the 15€ fee is always taken by Shintaku’s bank.

There are both sending and receiving fees and you can only now the receiving
fees because they are charged by your own bank.

There are three ways to make make a transfer:
1. all fees to sender,
2. all fees to receiver,
3. shared fees (each bank takes its fees from their customer).

If the sender fills the form with 2. or 3., receiver is screwed.

Now, there’s also the possibility that the bank form has been simplified (because
website) and there’s no choice for the sender.


And, as Teup says, let’s not forget there’s a possible conversion fee too. Both
ways again. (If you’re used to PayPal, it’s the same thing: when there’s a conversion,
they ask you if you want to pay X before conversion or the payee to receive X
after conversion.)

Bonjour.

Yes, that's exactly what happened because the seller attached an xml document
called PACS.008 in which that was clearly specified: the commissions were all
upon me. He didn't even chose "SHA". I called my bank for confirmation and
they allowed me to see the PACS.008.
Now since that's a mistake from him, he should have worked the things out
someway, like for example asking a friend with paypal to help him out like I
suggested him.

Instead he exiged the money back and was unhelpful.
This was so depressing. He broke 2 of my terms and conditions in one order.
I mean, you are not forced to buy from my shop.
You don't like my T&C? You don't buy.
But buying and then being arrogant is simply unsettling.

After you received only 35€, why didn't you file an NPB?

Because I am a cooperative person.
Placing a NPB doesn't settle problems.
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: Nov 9, 2019 05:42
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 48 times
 Topic: Selling
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SezaR (185)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
In Selling, Shintaku writes:
  In Selling, SezaR writes:
  In Selling, Shintaku writes:
  In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
  In Selling, Baarlo_Bricks writes:
  […]
Isn't it also your own responsibility to find out what the additional costs
are and include them in additional charges? I never had an IBAN with extra costs
from Switzerland btw. I did have it from Australia, but charged 7 euro extra
(which it did cost) and which was fine for the buyer.

Now you let him pay, then see there are costs. And then reclaim them. Which makes
the initial invoice you send not correct. Now you charge the buyer later with
15 euro extra. You should have done that at the first invoice.

That’s possible only if the 15€ fee is always taken by Shintaku’s bank.

There are both sending and receiving fees and you can only now the receiving
fees because they are charged by your own bank.

There are three ways to make make a transfer:
1. all fees to sender,
2. all fees to receiver,
3. shared fees (each bank takes its fees from their customer).

If the sender fills the form with 2. or 3., receiver is screwed.

Now, there’s also the possibility that the bank form has been simplified (because
website) and there’s no choice for the sender.


And, as Teup says, let’s not forget there’s a possible conversion fee too. Both
ways again. (If you’re used to PayPal, it’s the same thing: when there’s a conversion,
they ask you if you want to pay X before conversion or the payee to receive X
after conversion.)

Bonjour.

Yes, that's exactly what happened because the seller attached an xml document
called PACS.008 in which that was clearly specified: the commissions were all
upon me. He didn't even chose "SHA". I called my bank for confirmation and
they allowed me to see the PACS.008.
Now since that's a mistake from him, he should have worked the things out
someway, like for example asking a friend with paypal to help him out like I
suggested him.

Instead he exiged the money back and was unhelpful.
This was so depressing. He broke 2 of my terms and conditions in one order.
I mean, you are not forced to buy from my shop.
You don't like my T&C? You don't buy.
But buying and then being arrogant is simply unsettling.

After you received only 35€, why didn't you file an NPB?

Because I am a cooperative person.
Placing a NPB doesn't settle problems.

Secondo me, no dobbiamo essere sempre cooperativo. Ci sono situazioni in cui
è necessario essere fermo su ciò che è corretto.
 Author: bje View Messages Posted By bje
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 08:05
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 38 times
 Topic: Selling
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bje (1267)

Location:  South Africa, Western Cape
Member Since Contact Type Status
May 24, 2010 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: JE Bricks
In Selling, Shintaku writes:
  In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
  In Selling, Baarlo_Bricks writes:
  […]

snip

  
  
There are three ways to make make a transfer:
1. all fees to sender,
2. all fees to receiver,
3. shared fees (each bank takes its fees from their customer).

If the sender fills the form with 2. or 3., receiver is screwed.

Now, there’s also the possibility that the bank form has been simplified (because
website) and there’s no choice for the sender.


And, as Teup says, let’s not forget there’s a possible conversion fee too. Both
ways again. (If you’re used to PayPal, it’s the same thing: when there’s a conversion,
they ask you if you want to pay X before conversion or the payee to receive X
after conversion.)

Bonjour.

Yes, that's exactly what happened because the seller attached an xml document
called PACS.008 in which that was clearly specified: the commissions were all
upon me. He didn't even chose "SHA". I called my bank for confirmation and
they allowed me to see the PACS.008.
Now since that's a mistake from him, he should have worked the things out
someway, like for example asking a friend with paypal to help him out like I
suggested him.

Instead he exiged the money back and was unhelpful.
This was so depressing. He broke 2 of my terms and conditions in one order.
I mean, you are not forced to buy from my shop.
You don't like my T&C? You don't buy.
But buying and then being arrogant is simply unsettling.

Could you not have refused the transfer when you received that notice? By the
way was the origin currency CHF or EUR? CHF is SWIFT instruction with telegraphic
transfer, EUR is SEPA bank transfer - two compeltely different animals. All of
my electronic accounts have the same principle - free EU transfers in the common
European area provided it is SEPA and EUR. CHF or any other rcurerncy is with
fees.

Check with your bank. I will not believe that my bank down here can allow me
to request a telegraphic transfer from you where I fill in all of the details
and the cost centres as I want it and you just have to approve. That must surely
be available to you as well for payments not in SEPA and in EUR?
 Author: Shintaku View Messages Posted By Shintaku
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 07:37
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
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 Topic: Selling
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Shintaku (2034)

Location:  Italy, Lombardia
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Jan 17, 2011 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: 06 PIZZABRICK -SAVE-
  Isn't it also your own responsibility to find out what the additional costs
are and include them in additional charges? I never had an IBAN with extra costs
from Switzerland btw. I did have it from Australia, but charged 7 euro extra
(which it did cost) and which was fine for the buyer.

Now you let him pay, then see there are costs. And then reclaim them. Which makes
the initial invoice you send not correct. Now you charge the buyer later with
15 euro extra. You should have done that at the first invoice.

Sir, if in my store terms I write that the fees for IBAN are upon the buyer,
they are upon the buyer.
Why should I make him the invoice adding fees which I don't even know because
they depend on their bank? Every bank has a different one. I cannot possibly
know every bank's fee.
I just wrote in my T&C that since you can actually CHOOSE who bears the commissions,
it was his behalf if he wanted to use that payment method.
 Author: TheBrickGuys View Messages Posted By TheBrickGuys
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 15:47
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 38 times
 Topic: Selling
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TheBrickGuys (8927)

Location:  USA, California
Member Since Contact Type Status
Dec 18, 2010 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - Revoked
Store: TheBrickGuys
  Sir, if in my store terms I write that the fees for IBAN are upon the buyer,
they are upon the buyer.
Why should I make him the invoice adding fees which I don't even know because
they depend on their bank? Every bank has a different one. I cannot possibly
know every bank's fee.
I just wrote in my T&C that since you can actually CHOOSE who bears the commissions,
it was his behalf if he wanted to use that payment method.


Even though your terms do state that IBAN / bank transfer fees are the customers
responsibility, I think it would also be a really good idea to let your customers
know that the fee could be as high as an additional 30% of the order total (which
is the what the percentage of 15 is from 50). I know I would be surprised by
a 30% increase if I were not expecting such a high fee.


A thought - if you can refund some of the total payment back to the customer
without any having to pay any additional fees then maybe a good solution would
be to invoice all your customers who want to use a bank transfer an 15% to cover
the transfer fee with the understanding that any extra would be refunded back
to them. This way there would be no surprise fee for them to become upset over
and, if you end up being able to give them a partial fee refund then they will
appreciate your honesty when they receive it and probably end up placing future
orders with you.

Best Regards, Jim.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 16:15
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
 Viewed: 34 times
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Selling, TheBrickGuys writes:
  […]
Even though your terms do state that IBAN / bank transfer fees are the customers
responsibility, I think it would also be a really good idea to let your customers
know that the fee could be as high as an additional 30% of the order total (which
is the what the percentage of 15 is from 50). I know I would be surprised by
a 30% increase if I were not expecting such a high fee.

It could be way higher than that or way lower: there are fixed fees.

For instance, most French banks have a 3 to 5€ fee when you use the phone or
a paper form instead of using their website.

Banks are always creative when it’s about fees.
Almost as much a taxmen with taxes


  A thought - if you can refund some of the total payment back to the customer
without any having to pay any additional fees then maybe a good solution would
be to invoice all your customers who want to use a bank transfer an 15% to cover
the transfer fee with the understanding that any extra would be refunded back
to them. This way there would be no surprise fee for them to become upset over
and, if you end up being able to give them a partial fee refund then they will
appreciate your honesty when they receive it and probably end up placing future
orders with you.

The refund would be done via bank transfer too, with another fee.
It’s not like a partial refund on PayPal.
 Author: Leftoverbricks View Messages Posted By Leftoverbricks
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 11:38
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
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Leftoverbricks (1407)

Location:  Netherlands, Overijssel
Member Since Contact Type Status
Mar 11, 2012 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Leftoverbricks
I feel your pain. Switzerland is a special country though. Norway same. I hope
you find a way to refine your shipping methods and payments methods so this can't
happen again.
Good luck!
 Author: Shintaku View Messages Posted By Shintaku
 Posted: Nov 8, 2019 20:27
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
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Shintaku (2034)

Location:  Italy, Lombardia
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Jan 17, 2011 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: 06 PIZZABRICK -SAVE-
In Selling, Leftoverbricks writes:
  I feel your pain. Switzerland is a special country though. Norway same. I hope
you find a way to refine your shipping methods and payments methods so this can't
happen again.
Good luck!

Thanks man!
 Author: Thomaswt View Messages Posted By Thomaswt
 Posted: Nov 9, 2019 05:30
 Subject: Re: Your terms and condition mean zero.
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Thomaswt (1116)

Location:  Denmark
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 28, 2012 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Danish BrickSupply
In Selling, Shintaku writes:
  Hello,

I acknowledge I am writing this out of pure frustration, so please forgive me
in advance.

So that's the fact: you can write pretty terms and conditions, covering all
the cases you have in mind, you'll always find buyers that do not care at
all of the time you wasted writing and updating them, they will place an order
and act surprised when you point out that they are not abiding to your terms.

My last case was the worst I had in 9 years of selling.
A buyer from Switzerland asks to buy with a Bank Transfer 50€ worth of bricks+shipping.
That's fine, I allow bank transfers provided the buyer covers ALL the commissions.
My paypal fee is ZERO, but bank commissions are so variable that I can't
give them for free.
Obviously that's written in the terms.
Obviously this buyer sends me 50€ which become 35€ after the bank sucks 15€ out
of commissions because he charged me as the bearer.
After several emails in which I explain, in a kind way, this customer that I
won't ship unless he finds a way to compensate the missing 15€, the user
wants to walk away with that with a "Ok let's cancel and refund." even if
I explained that if I were to send him again the money, I'd send 35€ not
50€ so he wasted 15€ for nothing. It would have been better if he found some
way to compensate me the difference thus letting me ship the items.

Again obviously, I have a condition that orders are not cancellable unless severe
reasons happens.
But he doesn't care.

Then, to end it up, we arrived to a NPX situation. I gave him back the money,
but of course since I am a correct person, I didn't give him back (35€ -
the commissions =) 20€. I gave him back the 35€.

Which means that I paid 50€ again, losing 15€ in the process because I, differently
from this person, am an honest seller. I don't make it a living out of the
small sales I have, but I have a moral standard that is separated from my bricklink
activity.

But then I'm frustrated. I just want to play fair and honest, and I lose
15€ for absolutely nothing.
Yes, I have recurring customers loving the way I deal with them (discounts, no
paypal fees, careful packaging, 6 shipping days per week, etc) but every time
someone comes and disregards totally your work, that makes me feel sad and I
need to have advice from better sellers on how to deal with this situations.

Thanks for reading whoever put an effort to do it.

I can recommend getting an online Paysera bank account for IBAN.
In my danish bank, I had to pay a EUR 6,69 fixed fee for receiving IBAN. With
Paysera it's free, I only pay a EUR 0,27 fixed fee to paysera when I transfer
money to my bank account in Denmark. Receiving it in Denmark is 100% free.