Discussion Forum: Thread 236003

 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 3, 2018 16:20
 Subject: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 55 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests (Entry)
 Status:Open
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
Please make changes to the following inventory:
 
Set No: 7817  Name: Crane Wagon
* 
7817-1 (Inv) Crane Wagon
143 Parts, 1 Minifig, 1985
Sets: Train: 4.5V

* Delete 2 Part 3003 Red Brick 2 x 2
* Add 2 Part 3003old Red Brick 2 x 2 without Inside Supports
* Add 4 Part 4081b Light Gray Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thick Ring (Alternate) (match ID 1)
* Delete 4 Part 4275a Light Gray Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers and Solid Studs
* Add 4 Part 4275 Light Gray Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers
* Change 4 Part Light Gray 4081a Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thin Ring {match ID 0 to 1}
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 3, 2018 19:47
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 24 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
The set 7817 was released betwene 1985-90. This set was considered both 4.5v
and 12v so was also released on north of America.
The user JetFlap owns this set from his childhood in US. His box is the later
version released in 1989 or 1990.
We have seen the part 4081a was seen in earliest release of 7745 from 1985 so
I suggest to keep it as regular and add 4081b as alternate.
Since the hinges 4275a was not seen in earliest release of 7745 and we do not
have any proof that this one came in early releases of 7817, I suggest to remove
it from inventory. (but can be added in future if we get some evidence)

The owner of this copy is not 100% sure that the red bricks 3003old and 3002old
are original to this set but he believes they were never intermingled with other
bricks. On the other hand, he did not own that many 3003old or 3002old so the
chance that they were intermingled with 3002 or 3003 is low. So
- I added 3002old as regular and deleted 3002, as this one was seen in earliest
release of 7745 and even later releases of 7745 or 7735.
- I did not add 3003old for now. This is because we have seen that 3003 appeared
in since 1983 (or earlier?). However those train sets in which 3003 came with
were produced in Europe but this copy of 7817 was sold in US and could had been
produced elsewhere. So I suggest to put a hold on this one for now.

In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  Please make changes to the following inventory:
 
Set No: 7817  Name: Crane Wagon
* 
7817-1 (Inv) Crane Wagon
143 Parts, 1 Minifig, 1985
Sets: Train: 4.5V

* Delete 2 Part 3003 Red Brick 2 x 2
* Add 2 Part 3003old Red Brick 2 x 2 without Inside Supports
* Add 4 Part 4081b Light Gray Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thick Ring (Alternate) (match ID 1)
* Delete 4 Part 4275a Light Gray Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers and Solid Studs
* Add 4 Part 4275 Light Gray Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers
* Change 4 Part Light Gray 4081a Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thin Ring {match ID 0 to 1}
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 3, 2018 19:48
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 14 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
I had forgotten the photo.

In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  The set 7817 was released betwene 1985-90. This set was considered both 4.5v
and 12v so was also released on north of America.
The user JetFlap owns this set from his childhood in US. His box is the later
version released in 1989 or 1990.
We have seen the part 4081a was seen in earliest release of 7745 from 1985 so
I suggest to keep it as regular and add 4081b as alternate.
Since the hinges 4275a was not seen in earliest release of 7745 and we do not
have any proof that this one came in early releases of 7817, I suggest to remove
it from inventory. (but can be added in future if we get some evidence)

The owner of this copy is not 100% sure that the red bricks 3003old and 3002old
are original to this set but he believes they were never intermingled with other
bricks. On the other hand, he did not own that many 3003old or 3002old so the
chance that they were intermingled with 3002 or 3003 is low. So
- I added 3002old as regular and deleted 3002, as this one was seen in earliest
release of 7745 and even later releases of 7745 or 7735.
- I did not add 3003old for now. This is because we have seen that 3003 appeared
in since 1983 (or earlier?). However those train sets in which 3003 came with
were produced in Europe but this copy of 7817 was sold in US and could had been
produced elsewhere. So I suggest to put a hold on this one for now.

In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  Please make changes to the following inventory:
 
Set No: 7817  Name: Crane Wagon
* 
7817-1 (Inv) Crane Wagon
143 Parts, 1 Minifig, 1985
Sets: Train: 4.5V

* Delete 2 Part 3003 Red Brick 2 x 2
* Add 2 Part 3003old Red Brick 2 x 2 without Inside Supports
* Add 4 Part 4081b Light Gray Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thick Ring (Alternate) (match ID 1)
* Delete 4 Part 4275a Light Gray Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers and Solid Studs
* Add 4 Part 4275 Light Gray Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers
* Change 4 Part Light Gray 4081a Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thin Ring {match ID 0 to 1}
 
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 3, 2018 20:00
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 22 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Member Does Not Allow Contact Buyer
No Longer Registered
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In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  Please make changes to the following inventory

All of these requests could indeed be correct, but they are based too much on
speculation and potentially unreliable sources. I appreciate the work you've
put in, but I must warn you that I don't plan to approve these requests unless
you can present more substantial evidence.

I'll leave them open for a little while to give you that opportunity.
 Author: Jetflap View Messages Posted By Jetflap
 Posted: May 3, 2018 21:38
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 21 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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Jetflap (543)

Location:  USA, Colorado
Member Since Contact Type Status
Feb 23, 2001 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: The Brickle Barrel
In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  Please make changes to the following inventory

All of these requests could indeed be correct, but they are based too much on
speculation and potentially unreliable sources. I appreciate the work you've
put in, but I must warn you that I don't plan to approve these requests unless
you can present more substantial evidence.

I'll leave them open for a little while to give you that opportunity.

I have an original copy of this set from new, and can vouch for all the changes
as stated by SeraR.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 4, 2018 00:23
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 20 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Member Does Not Allow Contact Buyer
No Longer Registered
No Longer Registered
In Inventories Requests, Jetflap writes:
  I have an original copy of this set from new, and can vouch for all the changes
as stated by SeraR.

Thank you for replying to this thread. SezaR says:

  The owner of this copy is not 100% sure that the red bricks 3003old and 3002old are original to this set but he believes they were never intermingled with other bricks.

He also says you've owned the set since childhood. I don't know how
others kept their childhood sets, but I know all of mine were taken apart and
the parts mixed together to make new things. Please share a little about your
childhood sets and how you used them.
 Author: Thea View Messages Posted By Thea
 Posted: May 4, 2018 01:49
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 33 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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Thea (321)

Location:  USA, Texas
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jun 28, 2005 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  In Inventories Requests, Jetflap writes:
  I have an original copy of this set from new, and can vouch for all the changes
as stated by SeraR.

Thank you for replying to this thread. SezaR says:

  The owner of this copy is not 100% sure that the red bricks 3003old and 3002old are original to this set but he believes they were never intermingled with other bricks.

He also says you've owned the set since childhood. I don't know how
others kept their childhood sets, but I know all of mine were taken apart and
the parts mixed together to make new things. Please share a little about your
childhood sets and how you used them.

I purchased this set in Europe in 1985 as an adult. These train cars can be
stored built in their original box. My complete built model has only come out
when it is on display.
I checked mine. I was skeptical about
 
Part No: 3003old  Name: Brick 2 x 2 without Inside Supports
* 
3003old Brick 2 x 2 without Inside Supports
Parts: Brick
but that is actually what I have.
I also have
 
Part No: 4275  Name: Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers
* 
4275 Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers
Parts: Hinge

Thea
Always An Adventure!
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 4, 2018 02:20
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 26 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
Thanks for your help. Xhat about
1)
 
Part No: 3001  Name: Brick 2 x 4
* 
3001 Brick 2 x 4
Parts: Brick
or
 
Part No: 3001old  Name: Brick 2 x 4 without Cross Supports
* 
3001old Brick 2 x 4 without Cross Supports
Parts: Brick

2)
 
Part No: 4081a  Name: Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thin Ring
* 
4081a Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thin Ring
Parts: Plate, Modified
or
 
Part No: 4081b  Name: Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thick Ring
* 
4081b Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thick Ring
Parts: Plate, Modified

?


In Inventories Requests, Thea writes:
  In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  In Inventories Requests, Jetflap writes:
  I have an original copy of this set from new, and can vouch for all the changes
as stated by SeraR.

Thank you for replying to this thread. SezaR says:

  The owner of this copy is not 100% sure that the red bricks 3003old and 3002old are original to this set but he believes they were never intermingled with other bricks.

He also says you've owned the set since childhood. I don't know how
others kept their childhood sets, but I know all of mine were taken apart and
the parts mixed together to make new things. Please share a little about your
childhood sets and how you used them.

I purchased this set in Europe in 1985 as an adult. These train cars can be
stored built in their original box. My complete built model has only come out
when it is on display.
I checked mine. I was skeptical about
 
Part No: 3003old  Name: Brick 2 x 2 without Inside Supports
* 
3003old Brick 2 x 2 without Inside Supports
Parts: Brick
but that is actually what I have.
I also have
 
Part No: 4275  Name: Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers
* 
4275 Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers
Parts: Hinge

Thea
Always An Adventure!
 Author: Thea View Messages Posted By Thea
 Posted: May 4, 2018 02:34
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 23 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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Thea (321)

Location:  USA, Texas
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jun 28, 2005 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
Thanks for correcting the 3002 to 3001. I was just typing up a post about that.
Mine are 3001 with cross supports. and the current 4081 have the thick ring,
but there is a 'small possibility' that I replaced those because of breakage.

In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  Thanks for your help. Xhat about
1)
 
Part No: 3001  Name: Brick 2 x 4
* 
3001 Brick 2 x 4
Parts: Brick


or

  
 
Part No: 3001old  Name: Brick 2 x 4 without Cross Supports
* 
3001old Brick 2 x 4 without Cross Supports
Parts: Brick

2)
 
Part No: 4081a  Name: Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thin Ring
* 
4081a Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thin Ring
Parts: Plate, Modified


or

  
 
Part No: 4081b  Name: Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thick Ring
* 
4081b Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thick Ring
Parts: Plate, Modified

?


In Inventories Requests, Thea writes:
  In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  In Inventories Requests, Jetflap writes:
  I have an original copy of this set from new, and can vouch for all the changes
as stated by SeraR.

Thank you for replying to this thread. SezaR says:

  The owner of this copy is not 100% sure that the red bricks 3003old and 3002old are original to this set but he believes they were never intermingled with other bricks.

He also says you've owned the set since childhood. I don't know how
others kept their childhood sets, but I know all of mine were taken apart and
the parts mixed together to make new things. Please share a little about your
childhood sets and how you used them.

I purchased this set in Europe in 1985 as an adult. These train cars can be
stored built in their original box. My complete built model has only come out
when it is on display.
I checked mine. I was skeptical about
 
Part No: 3003old  Name: Brick 2 x 2 without Inside Supports
* 
3003old Brick 2 x 2 without Inside Supports
Parts: Brick
but that is actually what I have.
I also have
 
Part No: 4275  Name: Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers
* 
4275 Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers
Parts: Hinge

Thea
Always An Adventure!
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 4, 2018 04:03
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 29 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Member Does Not Allow Contact Buyer
No Longer Registered
No Longer Registered
In Inventories Requests, Thea writes:
  I purchased this set in Europe in 1985 as an adult.

Thanks for chiming in, Thea.

SezaR, you may not be aware of this, but Thea is an inventory administrator herself
over at Rebrickable. The fact that she purchased the set as an adult and has
kept it isolated is very helpful. I'm also pleased to see confirmation of
Jetlap's information in a European set.

I've approved your change requests with one caveat - I've removed the
thin ring clip (4081a). If you find proof of it in a set, then it can always
be added back in.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 4, 2018 04:10
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 19 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Member Does Not Allow Contact Buyer
No Longer Registered
No Longer Registered
In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  Jetlap's information in a European set.

Oops. That should have been Jetflap, not Jetlap.
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 4, 2018 17:15
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 19 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
   I'm also pleased to see confirmation of
Jetlap's information in a European set.

Again, this set was sold world-wide, including Canada and USA. As far as I know,
the following train single wagons were sold on north of America:
7813, 7814, 7816, 7817, 7818, 7819 (7810?)

  I've approved your change requests with one caveat - I've removed the
thin ring clip (4081a). If you find proof of it in a set, then it can always
be added back in.

That means a big big trouble for me, at the same level as the yellow cones of
7730


If I knew this would come out of my inventory requests for 7817, I would have
never submitted them.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 4, 2018 17:35
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 25 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Member Does Not Allow Contact Buyer
No Longer Registered
No Longer Registered
In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  If I knew this would come out of my inventory requests for 7817, I would have
never submitted them.

Isn't that just a bit overdramatic? You provided no evidence for keeping
the thin ring clip and you gave no indication of how important it was to you.
You only said the following:

  We have seen the part 4081a was seen in earliest release of 7745 from 1985 so
I suggest to keep it as regular and add 4081b as alternate.

The fact that you referenced a different set is not evidence of which part variant
appeared in 7817-1. Since we had evidence from the earliest version ( the first
year of release, in fact) that 7817-1 came with the thick ring clip, I decided
it would be reasonable to remove the thin ring clip until such time as it could
be proven to appear in the set.

Not the end of the world, for sure.
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 5, 2018 16:59
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 22 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
  Isn't that just a bit overdramatic?

Is it going to affect m daily life? The answer is no, even if one add the following
parts to 7817
 
Part No: 3739c01  Name: Wheel 24 x 43 Technic with Black Tire 24 x 43 Technic (3739 / 3740)
* 
3739c01 (Inv) Wheel 24 x 43 Technic with Black Tire 24 x 43 Technic (3739 / 3740)
Parts: Wheel & Tire Assembly
 
Part No: wampa  Name: Big Figure - Wampa
* 
wampa (Inv) Big Figure - Wampa
Parts: Animal, Land

So, in this context it is not overdramatic.
How wrong is to remove the thin ring and how hard is to be that is came in only
early releases of 7817? Answer: it is really hard. The boxes don't have window
and even if we but , open and check a sealed set, it will be most likely a later
release coming with thick rings.
So yes, in this context it is overdramatic.

  All of these requests could indeed be correct, but they are based too much on
speculation and potentially unreliable sources.

All of these requests are indeed correct. Having checked for about 10 months
all listings of these sets in various websites and compare with I believe with
other 12v fans make them unreliable. When I am not sure, I do not submit. When
something may not be complete or need more investigation, I state it (I should
state it).

My source was reliable. Jetflap had kept his parts in original condition, however
there was slightly chance that few bricks were intermingled. After 30 years,
who can remember all details on how the sets were kept, got moved between boxes,...?

Let's review my initial inventor requests:
* Delete 2 Part 3003 Red Brick 2 x 2
My comment: I was not sure

* Add 2 Part 3003old Red Brick 2 x 2 without Inside Supports
It is now verified by others too.

* Add 4 Part 4081b Light Gray Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thick Ring
(Alternate) (match ID 1)
It is now verified by others too.

* Delete 4 Part 4275a Light Gray Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers and Solid Studs
Very hard to prove a part never appeared in any copy of a set. But this is most
likely correct. I will give my reason later in a new comment.

* Add 4 Part 4275 Light Gray Hinge Plate 1 x 2 with 3 Fingers
It is now verified by others too.

* Change 4 Part Light Gray 4081a Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thin
Ring {match ID 0 to 1}
This should be kept. I give my reason later in a new comment.

I understand that your work is not straight, but sometimes you accept things
so easily. For example you added
 
Part No: 2731b  Name: Train, Track 12V Conducting Rail Curved with Connection Wire and Long Connector
* 
2731b Train, Track 12V Conducting Rail Curved with Connection Wire and Long Connector
Parts: Train, Track
to 7735 and 7745 without any evidence (I had some evidence but not from a sealed
set)
For 7817, the light gray hinges with hollow studs were in production since 1985.
Is this an doubt that they appeared in 7817 which was released until the end
of 1990? Isn't 6 years enough? Would you accept it if it was released until
2000?

This comment is not meant to be a complaint, I wrote it only to explain how I
see things from an inventory-change-requester so that future in. requests will
go smoother

In another longer comment, I will explain my full understand on hinges and clips
(thin/thick).
You provided no evidence for keeping
  the thin ring clip and you gave no indication of how important it was to you.
You only said the following:

  We have seen the part 4081a was seen in earliest release of 7745 from 1985 so
I suggest to keep it as regular and add 4081b as alternate.

The fact that you referenced a different set is not evidence of which part variant
appeared in 7817-1. Since we had evidence from the earliest version ( the first
year of release, in fact) that 7817-1 came with the thick ring clip, I decided
it would be reasonable to remove the thin ring clip until such time as it could
be proven to appear in the set.

Not the end of the world, for sure.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 6, 2018 03:41
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 23 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 10, 2002 Member Does Not Allow Contact Buyer
No Longer Registered
No Longer Registered
In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  For 7817, the light gray hinges with hollow studs were in production since 1985.
Is this an doubt that they appeared in 7817 which was released until the end
of 1990? Isn't 6 years enough? Would you accept it if it was released until
2000?

Inventories should ideally reflect what was actually found in sets.

Not what could have been found.
Not even what was likely to have been found.
Only what was actually found.

When I say that, of course, I'm only repeating what Russell said back In
February:

  We are not going to approve requests to blanket the inventory system with every
possible variant. If you want to add a variant to an inventory, you need to a
have a reliable source.

And also:

  We're not disagreeing about the likelihood of a variant being found in a
given set. We're disagreeing about how the BrickLink inventories should function.
BrickLink inventories represent, as well as possible, what has actually been
found in reliable sources, not what should be found, or what is commonly found,
or what might eventually be found.

You said the following in this recent inventory request:

https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1088133

  This part was added on Feb 2, 2007. The submitted added this part as alternative
to all sets from 1980 (7865 and 7730) on the same day. I believe he assumed this
part was used in later releases of this three sets.

Therefore, you know from experience that adding parts to inventories because
they were likely to have appeared in sets is not the best approach and I really
can't understand why you're making the argument that we should be doing
it for 7817.

  How wrong is to remove the thin ring and how hard is to be that is came in only
early releases of 7817? Answer: it is really hard. The boxes don't have window
and even if we but , open and check a sealed set, it will be most likely a later
release coming with thick rings.

Consider this question: is the inventory of set 7817-1 inaccurate if it includes
4 of part 4081b Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thick Ring in light gray?

My answer is that the inventory is accurate.

Is it exhaustively, completely, precisely accurate? No, possibly not for all
part variants. But if you want that kind of accuracy, then it's worth getting
right and the only way to make sure you're getting it absolutely right is
to find a solid source. The years of release are not solid sources, they are
only educated guesses.

There is no harm in leaving the inventory as it is until a solid source surfaces
of the thin ring appearing in the set. The original source for the inclusion
of the thin ring was a used lot of childhood sets purchased and then used for
inventory. I'm sure you'll agree that this is not exactly the most reliable
way to achieve the precise accuracy you'd like to see in set inventories.


In fact, I'm quite surprised that you wouldn't support the removal
of the thin ring clip since its inclusion in the inventory was based on secondhand
used sets from someone's childhood.
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 6, 2018 08:22
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 21 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
  Inventories should ideally reflect what was actually found in sets.

Not what could have been found.
Not even what was likely to have been found.
Only what was actually found.

When I say that, of course, I'm only repeating what Russell said back In
February:

The inventories of ALL train sets before 1991 that I have checked are based on
the instructions. All means I don't recall even one of them that was not
based on a source. I say this because all mistakes I have seen are exactly those
mistakes that one cane find in instructions or those things that we cannot check
through instructions.
Would you not delete now all these inventories?

And I recall many instances in which you didn't follow what you say here.
Here I remember:
1) Set 6842
https://www.bricklink.com/messageThread.asp?ID=232077

You wrote:
"I have no problem adding the slope without bottom tube, but I'm wondering
why we're keeping the other as alternate. Since you can prove that the set
came with the slope without the bottom tube, what do you think about just replacing
3040 altogether?"

I answered:
"This set appears in the catalog of 1984 (seems not in those catalogs of 1985)"

and finally you:
"Ah, yes. Good catch - I forgot about checking that aspect. Since it was in
'84 catalogs, then it likely did come with the bottom tube variant."

2) you added 2731b to 7735 and 7745; a part that was not included in any set
at the time. I did not give any evidence of any type. You accepted.

I just recall these two. I can remember more later.
How would you explain this?

Why is it accepted that the inventories were listed based on instructions but
the thin ring cannot be included based on instructions?
I think the evidence that the thin ring did not appear in the copy of Thea was
poor as she was not even sure. We don't know if that copy was from the very
first release or the other one. This small set was sold a lot as it was smaller
and cheaper;

Do you accept instructions or the box as a reliable source in the absence of
a sealed set or a copy kept in original condition?
If yes, then the thin ring should be kept.
If no, then the current inventories of all the train sets are based on this.
Would you delete them until one finds a sealed copy or something as good as that?
If no, why likelihood is not better than instructions?
What you call Likelihood I call Statistics. This is science. Our life is based
really on instructions more than what we can imagine. The big companies spend
lots of money to hire mathematicians in order to make their more important decisions.

  Therefore, you know from experience that adding parts to inventories because
they were likely to have appeared in sets is not the best approach and I really
can't understand why you're making the argument that we should be doing
it for 7817.

This part was added based on what you call "likelihood". I never followed this
type of arguments and never requested a part to be added based on "likelihood".
But, I think if a part is seen many times with a set in various auction sites
and if that part is somehow rare (not like bricks, tracks,...) then the chance
that the sellers made all a mistake in using those parts with their set is zero.
Basically this means it is impossible to toss a dice 20 times and get "6" all
the twenty times.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 6, 2018 13:13
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 24 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  The inventories of ALL train sets before 1991 that I have checked are based on
the instructions. Would you not delete now all these inventories?

No. An inventory based on instructions is better than no inventory at all.
I myself have added a number of inventories based on instructions.

The issue isn't inventories based on instructions. The issue is part variants
being added based on anything other than actually finding those variants in sets.

  And I recall many instances in which you didn't follow what you say here.
Here I remember:
1) Set 6842

  I just recall these two. I can remember more later.
How would you explain this?

The explanation is that I was not consistent and I thank you for letting me know
about this instance where I was inconsistent. I have corrected the inventory
of set 6842 to remove the variant which was incorrectly included. If you remember
any more instances later, please let me know.

  you added 2731b to 7735 and 7745; a part that was not included in any set
at the time. I did not give any evidence of any type. You accepted.

As for 2731b, it obviously exists and had been in the catalog since 2012 without
being included in any set's inventory. You said it came in those sets and
I believed you (although you're right - I should have asked to see some proof).
Are you now saying that you're not sure it appeared in 7735 and 7745?

  Why is it accepted that the inventories were listed based on instructions but
the thin ring cannot be included based on instructions?

Because any inventory is better than no inventory and the specific part variant
included does not necessarily detract from the accuracy of a given inventory.
Including specific variants and alternate variants is fine-tuning which should
only be done based on hard evidence.

  Do you accept instructions or the box as a reliable source in the absence of
a sealed set or a copy kept in original condition?

Yes.

  If yes, then the thin ring should be kept.

No, because you forget the evidence of pauldvb (which verifies what Thea and
Jetflap also found, although they were less sure than Paul):

https://www.bricklink.com/messageThread.asp?ID=236073&nID=1089162

The instructions for 7817 were used to get a basic inventory going and then recently
refined based on what was actually found in sets. To refine the inventory further
by including the thin ring clip as regular or alternate, evidence must be provided.

  If no, then the current inventories of all the train sets are based on this.
Would you delete them until one finds a sealed copy or something as good as that?

In an ideal world every inventory would be created by a reliable contributor
using sealed set contents and nothing in the inventory would ever be changed
without referencing a sealed set. This is likely possible for most sets, but
the problem lies in finding reliable contributors who are willing to sacrifice
a sealed set for the purpose of inventory.

In the absence of living in an ideal world we do the best we can and sometimes
the instructions are the best we can do. That doesn't mean inventories based
on instructions are desirable - they're more of a last resort and they should
be assumed to be possibly incorrect for part variants.

By the way, I've updated this page to address this issue under the sub-section
titled Adding Alternate Part Variants:

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=1562
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 7, 2018 18:07
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 31 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
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Store: Sezar's trains
  As for 2731b, it obviously exists and had been in the catalog since 2012 without
being included in any set's inventory. You said it came in those sets and
I believed you (although you're right - I should have asked to see some proof).
Are you now saying that you're not sure it appeared in 7735 and 7745?

I am sure but not in the way you would like
However, I think crazychris opened a sealed 7745 during the last Christmas in
which 2731b was included. But no more info from his copy as he has stored it.
I have some data and will write other messages soon.

  In fact, I'm quite surprised that you wouldn't support the removal
of the thin ring clip since its inclusion in the inventory was based on secondhand
used sets from someone's childhood.

I am so surprised that you are surprised about my support to keep he thin ring
clip. Seriously. By now, you know that I have checked many and many sets before
having an idea and submitting an inventory change. Only last week, there were
about 15 copies of this set for sale and 3 or 4 of them came with thin ring clip
which are the rare one. By my experience, 10-20% of 7817 came with thin ring
clip.
Maybe this is the first time you checked the inventory of this set but I have
been checking thin rings clips as they were used for 7727 and 7755 (from 1983-4)
and 7817 and 7745 from 1985-90.
My conclusion is that they started to appear about 1986 maybe few months earlier
or later but that is not 1985.
The copy of Jetflap came with thick one because his set was abought in 1989 or
1990 as the version and copy right year (1989) of the box shows this. This is
not at all supporting the removal of thin clip rings. This set was released for
six years. Come on!
Thea was not sure if he exchanged the ring clips.
  the current 4081 have the thick ring,
but there is a 'small possibility' that I replaced those because of breakage.

She didn't say on what month in 1985 they bought it.

paulvdb didn't say in what year he bought his copy.

* Again, likelihood is different than Statistics. This latter one is science.
It is as true as 2+2=4. Statistics don't lie.
On the other hand, Bl can put some funds to correct the inventories. For each
set with these type of troubles, 10-25 Euro would be enough.

* From now on, I cannot add any variant of a part as this will cause the other
one to be removed from the inventory. So, I can submit such request if I have
only evidence for both of them.
Before, I thought instructions was considered as a fact unless if there is a
100% reliable evidence to disregard it considering one particular part.
For removal of hinges with solid studs from 7745 and 7735, I had a good evidence
but this still doesn't tell if the hinges with hollow studs were never used
for early releases. So if never such an evidence show up, I won't be surprised
as I also suggested to keep them as alternate.

As an exercise, whenever I get time, I find an evidence to add thick clip rings
to the following sets from 1985 or 1986 or 1987 and remove the thin clip rings.
Then the number of sets in which thin clip rings appeared goes done from 66
to about 30.


  
  Why is it accepted that the inventories were listed based on instructions but
the thin ring cannot be included based on instructions?

Because any inventory is better than no inventory and the specific part variant
included does not necessarily detract from the accuracy of a given inventory.
Including specific variants and alternate variants is fine-tuning which should
only be done based on hard evidence.

  Do you accept instructions or the box as a reliable source in the absence of
a sealed set or a copy kept in original condition?

Yes.

  If yes, then the thin ring should be kept.

No, because you forget the evidence of pauldvb (which verifies what Thea and
Jetflap also found, although they were less sure than Paul):

https://www.bricklink.com/messageThread.asp?ID=236073&nID=1089162

The instructions for 7817 were used to get a basic inventory going and then recently
refined based on what was actually found in sets. To refine the inventory further
by including the thin ring clip as regular or alternate, evidence must be provided.

  If no, then the current inventories of all the train sets are based on this.
Would you delete them until one finds a sealed copy or something as good as that?

In an ideal world every inventory would be created by a reliable contributor
using sealed set contents and nothing in the inventory would ever be changed
without referencing a sealed set. This is likely possible for most sets, but
the problem lies in finding reliable contributors who are willing to sacrifice
a sealed set for the purpose of inventory.

In the absence of living in an ideal world we do the best we can and sometimes
the instructions are the best we can do. That doesn't mean inventories based
on instructions are desirable - they're more of a last resort and they should
be assumed to be possibly incorrect for part variants.

By the way, I've updated this page to address this issue under the sub-section
titled Adding Alternate Part Variants:

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=1562
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 7, 2018 18:19
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 28 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
Here are photos of three copies of 7817 that were for sale last week.
All coming with thin ring clips.


In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  
  As for 2731b, it obviously exists and had been in the catalog since 2012 without
being included in any set's inventory. You said it came in those sets and
I believed you (although you're right - I should have asked to see some proof).
Are you now saying that you're not sure it appeared in 7735 and 7745?

I am sure but not in the way you would like
However, I think crazychris opened a sealed 7745 during the last Christmas in
which 2731b was included. But no more info from his copy as he has stored it.
I have some data and will write other messages soon.

  In fact, I'm quite surprised that you wouldn't support the removal
of the thin ring clip since its inclusion in the inventory was based on secondhand
used sets from someone's childhood.

I am so surprised that you are surprised about my support to keep he thin ring
clip. Seriously. By now, you know that I have checked many and many sets before
having an idea and submitting an inventory change. Only last week, there were
about 15 copies of this set for sale and 3 or 4 of them came with thin ring clip
which are the rare one. By my experience, 10-20% of 7817 came with thin ring
clip.
Maybe this is the first time you checked the inventory of this set but I have
been checking thin rings clips as they were used for 7727 and 7755 (from 1983-4)
and 7817 and 7745 from 1985-90.
My conclusion is that they started to appear about 1986 maybe few months earlier
or later but that is not 1985.
The copy of Jetflap came with thick one because his set was abought in 1989 or
1990 as the version and copy right year (1989) of the box shows this. This is
not at all supporting the removal of thin clip rings. This set was released for
six years. Come on!
Thea was not sure if he exchanged the ring clips.
  the current 4081 have the thick ring,
but there is a 'small possibility' that I replaced those because of breakage.

She didn't say on what month in 1985 they bought it.

paulvdb didn't say in what year he bought his copy.

* Again, likelihood is different than Statistics. This latter one is science.
It is as true as 2+2=4. Statistics don't lie.
On the other hand, Bl can put some funds to correct the inventories. For each
set with these type of troubles, 10-25 Euro would be enough.

* From now on, I cannot add any variant of a part as this will cause the other
one to be removed from the inventory. So, I can submit such request if I have
only evidence for both of them.
Before, I thought instructions was considered as a fact unless if there is a
100% reliable evidence to disregard it considering one particular part.
For removal of hinges with solid studs from 7745 and 7735, I had a good evidence
but this still doesn't tell if the hinges with hollow studs were never used
for early releases. So if never such an evidence show up, I won't be surprised
as I also suggested to keep them as alternate.

As an exercise, whenever I get time, I find an evidence to add thick clip rings
to the following sets from 1985 or 1986 or 1987 and remove the thin clip rings.
Then the number of sets in which thin clip rings appeared goes done from 66
to about 30.


  
  Why is it accepted that the inventories were listed based on instructions but
the thin ring cannot be included based on instructions?

Because any inventory is better than no inventory and the specific part variant
included does not necessarily detract from the accuracy of a given inventory.
Including specific variants and alternate variants is fine-tuning which should
only be done based on hard evidence.

  Do you accept instructions or the box as a reliable source in the absence of
a sealed set or a copy kept in original condition?

Yes.

  If yes, then the thin ring should be kept.

No, because you forget the evidence of pauldvb (which verifies what Thea and
Jetflap also found, although they were less sure than Paul):

https://www.bricklink.com/messageThread.asp?ID=236073&nID=1089162

The instructions for 7817 were used to get a basic inventory going and then recently
refined based on what was actually found in sets. To refine the inventory further
by including the thin ring clip as regular or alternate, evidence must be provided.

  If no, then the current inventories of all the train sets are based on this.
Would you delete them until one finds a sealed copy or something as good as that?

In an ideal world every inventory would be created by a reliable contributor
using sealed set contents and nothing in the inventory would ever be changed
without referencing a sealed set. This is likely possible for most sets, but
the problem lies in finding reliable contributors who are willing to sacrifice
a sealed set for the purpose of inventory.

In the absence of living in an ideal world we do the best we can and sometimes
the instructions are the best we can do. That doesn't mean inventories based
on instructions are desirable - they're more of a last resort and they should
be assumed to be possibly incorrect for part variants.

By the way, I've updated this page to address this issue under the sub-section
titled Adding Alternate Part Variants:

https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=1562
 




 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 7, 2018 17:33
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 24 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
  Inventories should ideally reflect what was actually found in sets.

Not what could have been found.
Not even what was likely to have been found.
Only what was actually found.

When I say that, of course, I'm only repeating what Russell said back In
February:

  We are not going to approve requests to blanket the inventory system with every
possible variant. If you want to add a variant to an inventory, you need to a
have a reliable source.

And also:

  We're not disagreeing about the likelihood of a variant being found in a
given set. We're disagreeing about how the BrickLink inventories should function.
BrickLink inventories represent, as well as possible, what has actually been
found in reliable sources, not what should be found, or what is commonly found,
or what might eventually be found.

I assume few years ago, some mistakes happen so you came up with these rules
to make sure no mistake happen.
So, these rules were made to make sure the inventories are accurate.
Now, these rules are sometimes making the inventories inaccurate. But this is
not for you important, what is important is to follow the rules. This would remind
me one word:
TRADITION!
And again
TRAIDIONS, TRADITIONS, TRADITIONS

Why we don't make it in a better way?
- Because of traditions.
The inventories of train sets are 80% accurate but the data few experts have
gathered is 99% accurate. So why don't follow that?
- because of TRADITIONS.
Why admins keep the inventories with some mistakes and don't follow what
few experts know about these vintage sets:
- TRADITIONS!

There is even a nice video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSoYCetG6A


 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 8, 2018 15:02
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 26 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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No Longer Registered
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In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  I assume few years ago, some mistakes happen so you came up with these rules
to make sure no mistake happen.
So, these rules were made to make sure the inventories are accurate.
Now, these rules are sometimes making the inventories inaccurate. But this is
not for you important, what is important is to follow the rules. This would remind
me one word:
TRADITION!
And again
TRAIDIONS, TRADITIONS, TRADITIONS

I've been in my position for just over 6 months. Marek has been in his position
for less than 2 months. I think it's fair to say that neither of us have
had time yet to become hidebound. Even Russell has been in his position for
less than a year.

Sorry, but your tradition argument doesn't hold much weight, especially considering
the large amount of significant changes to policies and inventories in the last
six months.

  Why we don't make it in a better way?
- Because of traditions.

That's where we disagree somewhat. Your "better way" involves two methods:
(a) checking large numbers of used sets for sale and drawing conclusions based
on statistical likelihood, and (b) basing part appearances on years of release.

You're absolutely right, those are better ways than the ways used
in the past (which appear to have been instructions or used sets). Nevertheless,
I'd like to skip the better ways and go straight to the best way - why settle
for better when the best is possible?

The best way, and I know you'll agree with me on this, is finding the correct
variants in sealed sets or sealed set bags and/or finding sets which have been
built once by known, reliable sources and then remained undisturbed. Going the
better way route will mean more work for everyone involved - more looking, more
changing, more arguments and arbitrary decisions.

Going the best way route will mean incontrovertible evidence which it will never
again be necessary to change. It will also mean less bickering (26 messages
in this thread so far).

Tradition doesn't enter into it for me, but wanting the absolute best for
BrickLink inventories does. All I'm asking from you is that we skip the
intermediate steps and go straight to the best sources. Finding the best sources
may involve more difficulty, but the end result will be worth the trouble involved.
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 10, 2018 05:01
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 19 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
Member Since Contact Type Status
Jan 15, 2015 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Sezar's trains
There are few things that I have to write about, but it may get long so let me
write with a couple of comments.


  Sorry, but your tradition argument doesn't hold much weight, especially considering
the large amount of significant changes to policies and inventories in the last
six months.

What I am talking about is the way you (admins) want to accept inventories. This
has not changed at all, even if we have complained. We want to correct and improve
inventories so why you set some ways to what should be accepted and what not.
These things are set to have the correct inventories, so this is the goal. Now
it seems to me that your goal is to follow these rules and not to correct inventories.
All I hear is
  The best way, and I know you'll agree with me on this, is finding the correct
variants in sealed sets or sealed set bags and/or finding sets which have been
built once by known, reliable sources and then remained undisturbed

We have tried to follow and obey the rules as far as we could. Six months ago
I thought that you might not be sure about me and what I know about these sets.
So I tried to get along with your ways. These are really good and correct ways
but these train sets were released 30 years ago. What if we were living in 2050?
Were you still trying to find images of sealed sets? Maybe we need to find other
ways too.

It has been few months that I believe the hollowed hinges were released since
1985 and the sets 7735, 7745,... and 7817. Would you accept if I submitted the
inventory change request along with something like "I checked many listing of
these sets. Few of these trains that were for sale came with motor produced in
1985 or late 1984 so those were the earliest release of these sets and therefore
these data shows that the hollowed hinges came in earliest releases of these
sets".

I bet you wouldn't. We were lucky that I found a sealed set with motor dated
45 4 (45th week in 1984) and submitted a massive change of inventory for 7745
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1086776

Believe me. I knew what parts were in that copy of 7745 before receiving the
photos. The only things I didn't know were the type of conducting rails (with
or without reinforcements?) and the type of bricks 3001, 3002 and 3003.
I also knew all other inventory change requests many weeks and months before
I submitted them because I didn't have photos.
So, maybe you can trust the way we discovered these facts.

  Going the best way route will mean incontrovertible evidence which it will never
again be necessary to change. It will also mean less bickering (26 messages
in this thread so far).

26 messages is worth it, even 200 message. You are in your position for six months.
I am sure you expect to correct the inventory of many vintage sets. Now Please
check the log of completed changes for the big 12v trains 7710, 7715,...,7760:
https://www.bricklink.com/catalogInvChangeItem.asp?itemType=S&itemNo=7710-1&viewDate=Y&viewStatus=1

https://www.bricklink.com/catalogInvChangeItem.asp?itemType=S&itemNo=7715-1&viewDate=Y&viewStatus=1

https://www.bricklink.com/catalogInvChangeItem.asp?itemType=S&itemNo=7720-1&viewDate=Y&viewStatus=1

https://www.bricklink.com/catalogInvChangeItem.asp?itemType=S&itemNo=7722-1&viewDate=Y&viewStatus=1
.......

Until 2015 there were no signifacant improvement in their inventory(only adding
stickerred doors, correcting the quantity of few parts,...). Then Morris (lego.12vtrains)
started to correct them in 2015 and made some significant/important changes.
Now, during your 6 months of work in your position, the inventory of these 13
big train sets are almost correct. Here is the summary:
7710: done
7715: done
7720: battery wagon should be split as the contact holes changed
7722: done (the issue of solid hinges needs more investigation)
7725: done (motor bb12va should be added?)
7727: done
7730: cones and white small windows
7735: done
7740: done
7745: almost
7750: almost
7755: done
7760: done (the issue of motor type 3 needs more investigation)

12v trains and other supplemental sets for them are about one third of all sets
in 1980 and among the most collectible ones. So I think this is kind of a accomplishment
and 26 messages or even more is a small price to pay for this accomplishment.

That's where we disagree somewhat. Your "better way" involves two methods:
(a) checking large numbers of used sets for sale and drawing conclusions based
on statistical likelihood, and (b) basing part appearances on years of release.

Actually no! I don't consider part (b) as an evidence otherwise I would have
added many parts as alternative to 7750 (like motor bb12vb, white light bricks
with 3 contact holes,...) Part appearance and other things only gave me an idea
of what to expect. Once I got an idea on what is needed for investigation and
what to be expected, then I checked large number of items for sale of that particular
set in order to check the issues that I had already listed in an excel file.
So far, I found reliable photos (of sealed or MISB sets) for some of those issues
and I did not get a result different than what I (and Morris and Chris) expected.
Things get blocked for sets such as 7730, 7817,... or older sets before 1980.

I also wrote another message in which I suggested that BL spend some money for
correcting the vintage sets, once for ever.
https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1089547
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 10, 2018 05:54
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 26 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

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In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  These things are set to have the correct inventories, so this is the goal. Now
it seems to me that your goal is to follow these rules and not to correct inventories.

I have no problem correcting inventories where they are wrong and will accept
any reasonable source for that purpose. The problem lies in adding part variants
and alternate part variants.

Can we agree on the following sentence?

A set inventory is not incorrect or incomplete just because it doesn't include
every possible variant and alternate variant which ever appeared in the set during
the years it was released.
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 10, 2018 16:49
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
 Viewed: 25 times
 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
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  Can we agree on the following sentence?

A set inventory is not incorrect or incomplete just because it doesn't include
every possible variant and alternate variant which ever appeared in the set during
the years it was released.

I am sorry but I would consider it incomplete. If I buy a set coming with other
variant, I would try to replace them with the correct variant listed on bricklink.
9 months ago I bought two copies of 7730, one with yellow cones with axle hole.
I was thinking to buy yellow cones without axle hole to replace them but later
I realized that 7730 came with both cones.
I cannot talk in place of others but I am sure many collectors would think like
me as I know few of them being picky to have the correct variant and even, I
know one who examine each part to make sure it is period correct.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 10, 2018 17:04
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  
  Can we agree on the following sentence?

A set inventory is not incorrect or incomplete just because it doesn't include
every possible variant and alternate variant which ever appeared in the set during
the years it was released.

I am sorry but I would consider it incomplete.

Good lord, don't be sorry for having an opinion! We just disagree on that
particular point and we were finally able to pinpoint the exact cause of the
disagreement. That's a good thing.

My viewpoint is that if the inventory includes all the parts required*, then
it is complete. The inventory is imperfect (for collectors) if the variants
are not period-specific, but it is not incorrect or incomplete.

I agree with your efforts to get the inventories as perfect as possible, but
I'm expecting the highest standard of proof for tweaking inventories into
perfection. I think the collectors who care about these sets expect and deserve
only the best sources. That highest standard of proof is difficult to locate
for these old or rare sets and I understand and sympathize with your difficulties
in locating quality sources.


*All parts required to build the main model plus any other items on the official
parts list. In the absence of a parts list, the instructions, box images, and
official part count may be used to determine as closely as possible the constitution
of the Regular section.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: May 10, 2018 17:12
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  
  Can we agree on the following sentence?

A set inventory is not incorrect or incomplete just because it doesn't include
every possible variant and alternate variant which ever appeared in the set during
the years it was released.

I am sorry but I would consider it incomplete.

Good lord, don't be sorry for having an opinion! We just disagree on that
particular point and we were finally able to pinpoint the exact cause of the
disagreement. That's a good thing.

My viewpoint is that if the inventory includes all the parts required*, then
it is complete. The inventory is imperfect (for collectors) if the variants
are not period-specific, but it is not incorrect or incomplete.

I agree with your efforts to get the inventories as perfect as possible, but
I'm expecting the highest standard of proof for tweaking inventories into
perfection. I think the collectors who care about these sets expect and deserve
only the best sources. That highest standard of proof is difficult to locate
for these old or rare sets and I understand and sympathize with your difficulties
in locating quality sources.


*All parts required to build the main model plus any other items on the official
parts list. In the absence of a parts list, the instructions, box images, and
official part count may be used to determine as closely as possible the constitution
of the Regular section.


If I may add my brick: an inventory isn’t gospel truth, it’s a crowd-sourced
work-in-progress.
We might never know an inventory is “complete” / won’t ever change anymore: fifty
years from now, someone might dig up and open a sealed set with another variant
or extra.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 10, 2018 17:36
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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In Inventories Requests, SylvainLS writes:
  If I may add my brick: an inventory isn’t gospel truth, it’s a crowd-sourced
work-in-progress.
We might never know an inventory is “complete” / won’t ever change anymore: fifty
years from now, someone might dig up and open a sealed set with another variant
or extra.

Of course you're right. Your observation relates to all matters, though,
and touches on the very nature of truth itself. I am of the opinion that absolute
assurance is foolhardy and the wiser position to take regarding any fact is varying
degrees of certainty.

There is a celestial body we have named the Sun which casts light onto the Earth,
for example, but I am only 99% sure of that. I do not say it is a certainty
because it could be shown wrong one day.
 Author: maggiec View Messages Posted By maggiec
 Posted: May 10, 2018 17:49
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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maggiec (1647)

Location:  USA, California
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In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  In Inventories Requests, SylvainLS writes:
  If I may add my brick: an inventory isn’t gospel truth, it’s a crowd-sourced
work-in-progress.
We might never know an inventory is “complete” / won’t ever change anymore: fifty
years from now, someone might dig up and open a sealed set with another variant
or extra.

Of course you're right. Your observation relates to all matters, though,
and touches on the very nature of truth itself. I am of the opinion that absolute
assurance is foolhardy and the wiser position to take regarding any fact is varying
degrees of certainty.

There is a celestial body we have named the Sun which casts light onto the Earth,
for example, but I am only 99% sure of that. I do not say it is a certainty
because it could be shown wrong one day.

Yep, we could all be looking at shadows on the wall of a cave.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 10, 2018 17:53
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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In Inventories Requests, maggiec writes:
  Yep, we could all be looking at shadows on the wall of a cave.

I don't think Play-Doh can be listed on BrickLink yet, but since the addition
of BrickArms who knows what toys will be added next?
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: May 10, 2018 18:16
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SylvainLS (32)

Location:  France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
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In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  In Inventories Requests, SylvainLS writes:
  If I may add my brick: an inventory isn’t gospel truth, it’s a crowd-sourced
work-in-progress.
We might never know an inventory is “complete” / won’t ever change anymore: fifty
years from now, someone might dig up and open a sealed set with another variant
or extra.

Of course you're right. Your observation relates to all matters, though,
and touches on the very nature of truth itself. I am of the opinion that absolute
assurance is foolhardy and the wiser position to take regarding any fact is varying
degrees of certainty.

You absolutely sure about that?


  There is a celestial body we have named the Sun which casts light onto the Earth,
for example, but I am only 99% sure of that. I do not say it is a certainty
because it could be shown wrong one day.

Yes, but there are some things we can hold for true without much consequences
in many occasions in our day-to-day lifes, and some others for which it might
be harmful more often.

It’s one thing to assume (but for one day every (about) four years when you need
to catch up) that a day is exactly 24h, it’s another to jump and buy expensive
parts because you believe an inventory is perfect and your just-bought set has
the wrong variants.
 Author: Hygrotus View Messages Posted By Hygrotus
 Posted: May 11, 2018 04:32
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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Hygrotus (819)

Location:  Poland, w. Wielkopolskie
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In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  In Inventories Requests, SylvainLS writes:
  If I may add my brick: an inventory isn’t gospel truth, it’s a crowd-sourced
work-in-progress.
We might never know an inventory is “complete” / won’t ever change anymore: fifty
years from now, someone might dig up and open a sealed set with another variant
or extra.

Of course you're right. Your observation relates to all matters, though,
and touches on the very nature of truth itself. I am of the opinion that absolute
assurance is foolhardy and the wiser position to take regarding any fact is varying
degrees of certainty.

There is a celestial body we have named the Sun which casts light onto the Earth,
for example, but I am only 99% sure of that. I do not say it is a certainty
because it could be shown wrong one day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
 Author: Hygrotus View Messages Posted By Hygrotus
 Posted: May 11, 2018 04:43
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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Hygrotus (819)

Location:  Poland, w. Wielkopolskie
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Feb 3, 2011 Contact Member Seller
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  If I may add my brick: an inventory isn’t gospel truth, it’s a crowd-sourced
work-in-progress.
We might never know an inventory is “complete” / won’t ever change anymore: fifty
years from now, someone might dig up and open a sealed set with another variant
or extra.

yeah, it is philosophy of science you can never confirm, prove something that
it is completly true. Hypothesis and theories can be only verified and then falsified
if you find case that there is something not matching. To have something prove
you should check every possible case. So with inventories I see something similar,
we can never prove that inventory is correct because then all possible ever produced
boxes of particular set should be opended and checked which I think it isn't
possible
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
I was learning during my studies about Karl Popper philosophy and metodology,
it is fundamental to modern science

Marek
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 11, 2018 16:08
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
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Store: Sezar's trains
  I agree with your efforts to get the inventories as perfect as possible, but
I'm expecting the highest standard of proof for tweaking inventories into
perfection. I think the collectors who care about these sets expect and deserve
only the best sources. That highest standard of proof is difficult to locate
for these old or rare sets and I understand and sympathize with your difficulties
in locating quality sources.


It is exactly here that we can weigh "Traditions". You repeated the same thing
that you are saying using different words, without accepting any change in it,
that my way is as good and as reliable as your "best source".
Why mine is as good as yours?
- Because I examined it. Because I submitted about 150 inv. change requests based
on that. but I had to wait to find photos of a sealed set, otherwise I knew exactly
what to expect before seeing the photos.
Of course, there were few things I didn't know before seeing the photos,
but I knew what I didn't know so I would not had submitted any change request
based on what I was not sure any way.
I don't know about your scientific background but I do mathematics and Probability
is a science.
When I expect something to be true (based on another set of the same year having
that variant,...) then checking many items on the market (those that appear to
be taken off the loft) is reliable.
Actually, by checking the items on Ebay,... I realized many and many things.
I mean: I got to know certain things that I would have not realized by seeing
photos of a sealed copy.
And I do not use this method for common parts like bricks 3001, 3002 and 3003
or various types of conducting rails,...(unless the special one 2731a, 2731b,...)

At the end of the day, assume I submit 100 inventory change requests and one
is wrong: since the messages of all inventory change requests are saved, people
can later check that in case they think it is wrong.

If you pick up one example (variation of a part from a set in 80s), I can examine
this method and tell you what I get. This might give you a good impression of
what I am talking about.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 11, 2018 16:25
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  I don't know about your scientific background but I do mathematics and Probability
is a science.

I am not a scientist, though I am by no means scientifically illiterate.

My coworker Marek is a scientist, though, so perhaps he will comment on your
position. I've not discussed this with him yet and he may very well have
a different take on the level of evidence which is desirable when adding part
variants to an inventory.
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 11, 2018 16:33
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
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By the way, what is now missing are parts variants. Otherwise, the regular section
of all these sets should be correct (as far as I remember).

I also don't care much about extra parts as they vary from one production
run to the other one.


In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  In Inventories Requests, SezaR writes:
  I don't know about your scientific background but I do mathematics and Probability
is a science.

I am not a scientist, though I am by no means scientifically illiterate.

My coworker Marek is a scientist, though, so perhaps he will comment on your
position. I've not discussed this with him yet and he may very well have
a different take on the level of evidence which is desirable when adding part
variants to an inventory.
 Author: Thea View Messages Posted By Thea
 Posted: May 4, 2018 19:35
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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Thea (321)

Location:  USA, Texas
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In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  In Inventories Requests, Thea writes:
  I purchased this set in Europe in 1985 as an adult.

Thanks for chiming in, Thea.

SezaR, you may not be aware of this, but Thea is an inventory administrator herself
over at Rebrickable. The fact that she purchased the set as an adult and has
kept it isolated is very helpful. I'm also pleased to see confirmation of
Jetlap's information in a European set.

I've approved your change requests with one caveat - I've removed the
thin ring clip (4081a). If you find proof of it in a set, then it can always
be added back in.

Just want to point out that at Rebrickable there aren't separate catalog
admins. Inventory admins add items to both the database and the inventories.

As for the 4081 a vs b in
 
Set No: 7745  Name: High-Speed City Express Passenger Train
* 
7745-1 (Inv) High-Speed City Express Passenger Train
695 Parts, 10 Minifigs, 1985
Sets: Train: 12V
I hadn't looked at my 7745 when you were talking about 12v motors, because
it was converted to 9 volt back in 1994 when I did a display. I did look just
now and it has thick ring clips. But that doesn't mean that LEGO only used
thick rings in all the 1985 sets. If there were some thin rings still in their
stockpile, they might have ended up in any of the 1985 sets.

Looking at 7745-1 inventory at peeron shows it was verified by John P. (legoman77)
with 4081a. Perhaps if you contact him he can shed further light on the subject.

Thea
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 4, 2018 19:45
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

Location:  USA, Oklahoma
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In Inventories Requests, Thea writes:
  Just want to point out that at Rebrickable there aren't separate catalog
admins. Inventory admins add items to both the database and the inventories.

Ah, I see that now. That would be convenient.

  If there were some thin rings still in their
stockpile, they might have ended up in any of the 1985 sets.

Certainly true. I'd still like to see some evidence of one actually appearing
in 7817-1 before adding it back into the inventory, though.

I will contact the original submitter of the set and see if he can provide the
reasoning for using the thin ring in the inventory. If he can give me the source
for the original inventory, then I will update the inventory to show that source.
 Author: StormChaser View Messages Posted By StormChaser
 Posted: May 5, 2018 14:11
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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StormChaser (366)

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In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  I will contact the original submitter of the set and see if he can provide the
reasoning for using the thin ring in the inventory. If he can give me the source
for the original inventory, then I will update the inventory to show that source.

The source of the inventory was a friend's childhood collection. Therefore,
I have changed BrickLink's source to Instructions (previously there was no
source listed).

The submitter says that as far as can be remembered the set came with a thin
ring clip.
 Author: Thea View Messages Posted By Thea
 Posted: May 5, 2018 16:51
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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Thea (321)

Location:  USA, Texas
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In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  I will contact the original submitter of the set and see if he can provide the
reasoning for using the thin ring in the inventory. If he can give me the source
for the original inventory, then I will update the inventory to show that source.

The source of the inventory was a friend's childhood collection. Therefore,
I have changed BrickLink's source to Instructions (previously there was no
source listed).

The submitter says that as far as can be remembered the set came with a thin
ring clip.

To answer Sezar's request for a list of my complete train sets - A reminder
that many 4.5v and 12v train sets are stored in one of 4 large boxes that are
supporting a 6ft x 6ft display. Since 7817-1 is available for checking, it is
the only train car I can say with any certainty at the present time is
in its original state. My father visited us in 1985 for my daughter's graduation.
He is the one who built it from a new box, and my son never wanted it taken
apart because "Grandpa built it." I specified train car because he did take
the minifig to play with.
 Author: SezaR View Messages Posted By SezaR
 Posted: May 6, 2018 01:34
 Subject: Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 7817-1
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 Topic: Inventories Requests
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SezaR (187)

Location:  Canada, British Columbia
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In this comment, I explain how I got the idea that the hinges with hollow studs
were produced since 1985 (and indeed late 1984 as TLG had run their first production
runs for 7735, 7745, 7817,... in late 1984)

Last summer, I was looking to buy 7735 and 7745 and I realized that the hinges
with solid studs were very expensive but missing in those auctions of 7735, 7745
and 7817 that I was checking. The hinges of All those auctions were with hollow
studs. At some point, I gave up and thought: this is not normal!
Last winter, in a forum, an AFOL told me that the production date of motors are
engraved under them so this gave me an excellent way to check the early releases
of 7735 and 7745. Without that, I could not convince Admins that those hinges
were in production since 1985 considering the fact that all insturctions in 1985
and 1986 shows hinges with solid studs.
I got and saved some evidence (with the help of Morris).
1) 7745: photos 1-3
Production date of motor: 41 5
Hinges: hollowed
 
Part No: 4081a  Name: Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thin Ring
* 
4081a Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Light - Thin Ring
Parts: Plate, Modified
 
Part No: 3241c  Name: Train, Track 12V Conducting Rail Curved, interference-free
* 
3241c Train, Track 12V Conducting Rail Curved, interference-free
Parts: Train, Track
2) 7745: photos 4-7
Production date of motor: 24 5
Hinges: all hollowed
Clips: not checked
3) 7735:
Production date of motor: 48 5
 
Part No: 3241c  Name: Train, Track 12V Conducting Rail Curved, interference-free
* 
3241c Train, Track 12V Conducting Rail Curved, interference-free
Parts: Train, Track
Hinges: all hollowed
Owner: the user "go4bob"


In Inventories Requests, StormChaser writes:
  In Inventories Requests, Thea writes:
  I purchased this set in Europe in 1985 as an adult.

Thanks for chiming in, Thea.

SezaR, you may not be aware of this, but Thea is an inventory administrator herself
over at Rebrickable. The fact that she purchased the set as an adult and has
kept it isolated is very helpful. I'm also pleased to see confirmation of
Jetlap's information in a European set.

I've approved your change requests with one caveat - I've removed the
thin ring clip (4081a). If you find proof of it in a set, then it can always
be added back in.