Discussion Forum: Thread 224814

 Author: Admin_Jaclyn View Messages Posted By Admin_Jaclyn
 Posted: Aug 29, 2017 18:08
 Subject: 8/29/2017 Site Update
 Viewed: 323 times
 Topic: Administrative
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Admin_Jaclyn

Location:  USA, California
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 3, 2014 Contact Member Admin
Buying Privileges - OK
BrickLink Administrator
08/29/2017 Site Update
=====================

Site improvements:

-Disliked stores will now be excluded from Easy Buy results.
-Updated Store Payment Methods help page regarding IBAN.
https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=18
-Added super admin tool to enable IBAN payments for newly verified sellers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you experience any technical issues related to this deployment (e.g. not being
able to click the login button or not being able to add items to your shopping
cart), please clear your cache and delete your browser cookies.

http://www.refreshyourcache.com/en/home/
http://www.wikihow.com/Clear-Your-Browser%27s-Cookies

Other issues can be reported to the Help Desk: https://www.bricklink.com/helpDesk.asp?helpDeskID=132
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Upcoming bug fixes, site improvements, and new features can be found on the Road
Map page: https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2453

Thanks and have a wonderful day!

-Jaclyn
BrickLink Customer Support
 Author: therobo View Messages Posted By therobo
 Posted: Aug 30, 2017 06:10
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
 Viewed: 78 times
 Topic: Administrative
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therobo (6885)

Location:  Germany, Berlin
Member Since Contact Type Status
Oct 20, 2001 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Area of Bricks 'n Studs
BrickLink Catalog Administrator (?)
In Administrative, Admin_Jaclyn writes:
  08/29/2017 Site Update
=====================

Site improvements:

-Disliked stores will now be excluded from Easy Buy results.
-Updated Store Payment Methods help page regarding IBAN.
https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=18

Hi Jaclyn,
thanx for updating the help.

However, IBAN is an outdated term for the payment type, it now should read
SEPA Direct Debit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

The term IBAN still exists but only as abbreviation for
International Bank Account Number.

Ronald

  -Added super admin tool to enable IBAN payments for newly verified sellers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you experience any technical issues related to this deployment (e.g. not being
able to click the login button or not being able to add items to your shopping
cart), please clear your cache and delete your browser cookies.

http://www.refreshyourcache.com/en/home/
http://www.wikihow.com/Clear-Your-Browser%27s-Cookies

Other issues can be reported to the Help Desk: https://www.bricklink.com/helpDesk.asp?helpDeskID=132
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Upcoming bug fixes, site improvements, and new features can be found on the Road
Map page: https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2453

Thanks and have a wonderful day!

-Jaclyn
BrickLink Customer Support
 Author: WoutR View Messages Posted By WoutR
 Posted: Aug 30, 2017 08:23
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
 Viewed: 62 times
 Topic: Administrative
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WoutR (607)

Location:  Netherlands, Zuid-Holland
Member Since Contact Type Status
Mar 8, 2011 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Administrative, therobo writes:
  In Administrative, Admin_Jaclyn writes:
  08/29/2017 Site Update
=====================

Site improvements:

-Disliked stores will now be excluded from Easy Buy results.
-Updated Store Payment Methods help page regarding IBAN.
https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=18

Thanks for these updates!

  Hi Jaclyn,
thanx for updating the help.

However, IBAN is an outdated term for the payment type, it now should read
SEPA Direct Debit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

The term IBAN still exists but only as abbreviation for
International Bank Account Number.

Is it not SEPA and SWIFT that both use the IBAN?

The confusion is probably our fault as users, we always talk about IBAN payments


  Ronald

  -Added super admin tool to enable IBAN payments for newly verified sellers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you experience any technical issues related to this deployment (e.g. not being
able to click the login button or not being able to add items to your shopping
cart), please clear your cache and delete your browser cookies.

http://www.refreshyourcache.com/en/home/
http://www.wikihow.com/Clear-Your-Browser%27s-Cookies

Other issues can be reported to the Help Desk: https://www.bricklink.com/helpDesk.asp?helpDeskID=132
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Upcoming bug fixes, site improvements, and new features can be found on the Road
Map page: https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2453

Thanks and have a wonderful day!

-Jaclyn
BrickLink Customer Support
 Author: TBS View Messages Posted By TBS
 Posted: Aug 30, 2017 09:48
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
 Viewed: 59 times
 Topic: Administrative
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TBS (6724)

Location:  Germany, Sachsen
Member Since Contact Type Status
Sep 18, 2004 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Toms Brickstore
In Administrative, therobo writes:
  
However, IBAN is an outdated term for the payment type, it now should read
SEPA Direct Debit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

The term IBAN still exists but only as abbreviation for
International Bank Account Number.

Ronald

No matter how the MBA coined the term in probalby one day of work which only
he and his buerocrats understand, i would strongly suggest this kind of name.

Either tweak it into: "SEPA IBAN Direct Debit" or "SEPA Direct Debit via IBAN"

With the MBA term without IBAN no one knows what is going on, and we irritate
thousands of users, as well getting in to many emails ourselves like "Where the
IBAN-Payment type has gone to?" , or "why it has been removed".

Think about it.
 Author: Brickwilbo View Messages Posted By Brickwilbo
 Posted: Aug 30, 2017 09:53
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
 Viewed: 54 times
 Topic: Administrative
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Brickwilbo (1362)

Location:  Netherlands, Gelderland
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 24, 2007 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: Brickwilbo Betuwe Bricks
In Administrative, therobo writes:
  In Administrative, Admin_Jaclyn writes:
  08/29/2017 Site Update
=====================

Site improvements:

-Disliked stores will now be excluded from Easy Buy results.
-Updated Store Payment Methods help page regarding IBAN.
https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=18

Hi Jaclyn,
thanx for updating the help.

However, IBAN is an outdated term for the payment type, it now should read
SEPA Direct Debit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

The term IBAN still exists but only as abbreviation for
International Bank Account Number.

Ronald

In addition IBAN/SEPA isn't restricted to Europe only.

  
  -Added super admin tool to enable IBAN payments for newly verified sellers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you experience any technical issues related to this deployment (e.g. not being
able to click the login button or not being able to add items to your shopping
cart), please clear your cache and delete your browser cookies.

http://www.refreshyourcache.com/en/home/
http://www.wikihow.com/Clear-Your-Browser%27s-Cookies

Other issues can be reported to the Help Desk: https://www.bricklink.com/helpDesk.asp?helpDeskID=132
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Upcoming bug fixes, site improvements, and new features can be found on the Road
Map page: https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=2453

Thanks and have a wonderful day!

-Jaclyn
BrickLink Customer Support
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 30, 2017 10:57
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
 Viewed: 50 times
 Topic: Administrative
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SylvainLS (24)

Location:  France, Aquitaine-Limousin-Poitou-Charentes
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Administrative, Brickwilbo writes:
  […]
  However, IBAN is an outdated term for the payment type, it now should read
SEPA Direct Debit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

The term IBAN still exists but only as abbreviation for
International Bank Account Number.

IBAN never was a payment type per se. The type always has been a Bank Transfer.
The fact the transfer uses the IBAN standard of identification is only a qualification.

There’s a few acronyms used (at least):
- IBAN: bank account identification standard,
- SWIFT: a society, standard, and network for secure international transactions,
- BIC: an identification for a business (bank) inside the SWIFT network,
- SEPA: a new international accord, for payments in Euro.

Some of these are used to qualify how the bank transfer is to be made, and, sometimes,
by metonymy, are the only term used (“IBAN” instead of “bank transfer with IBAN”).

However, strictly speaking, the payment method is still just a bank transfer,
which may, or not, use BIC and IBAN identifications, and may, or not, use the
SWIFT network, and may, or not, occur in the S.E.P.Area, under the SEPA rules.

Anyway, it all depends on what you’re used to.
For instance, I have had trouble understanding why some stores present both “Bank
transfer” and “Bank transfer (IBAN)” (or just “IBAN”): there’s no difference
to me. (And adding a “SEPA” choice does nothing but confuse things even more.)
It’s just a bank transfer. My bank always wants an IBAN (and, until recently,
a BIC too), and it will decide how much (generally 0€) it will cost me. And if
I don’t have an IBAN to send money to, I can’t make the transfer, except maybe
with a paper form, some hassle, and an hefty fee.

  In addition IBAN/SEPA isn't restricted to Europe only.

SEPA is restricted to the members of European Union, the countries of the European
Free Trade Association (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland), Monaco,
and San-Marino.

With all the overlapping accords, associations, zones, whatever, it may not be
possible to use a strictly hierarchical zoning restriction (like “World / Europe
/ SEPA / EU / France”) for all payment methods.
 Author: Brickwilbo View Messages Posted By Brickwilbo
 Posted: Aug 30, 2017 11:05
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
 Viewed: 62 times
 Topic: Administrative
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Brickwilbo (1362)

Location:  Netherlands, Gelderland
Member Since Contact Type Status Collage
Oct 24, 2007 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
View Collage Pic
Store: Brickwilbo Betuwe Bricks
In Administrative, SylvainLS writes:
  In Administrative, Brickwilbo writes:
  […]
  However, IBAN is an outdated term for the payment type, it now should read
SEPA Direct Debit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

The term IBAN still exists but only as abbreviation for
International Bank Account Number.

IBAN never was a payment type per se. The type always has been a Bank Transfer.
The fact the transfer uses the IBAN standard of identification is only a qualification.

There’s a few acronyms used (at least):
- IBAN: bank account identification standard,
- SWIFT: a society, standard, and network for secure international transactions,
- BIC: an identification for a business (bank) inside the SWIFT network,
- SEPA: a new international accord, for payments in Euro.

Some of these are used to qualify how the bank transfer is to be made, and, sometimes,
by metonymy, are the only term used (“IBAN” instead of “bank transfer with IBAN”).

However, strictly speaking, the payment method is still just a bank transfer,
which may, or not, use BIC and IBAN identifications, and may, or not, use the
SWIFT network, and may, or not, occur in the S.E.P.Area, under the SEPA rules.

Anyway, it all depends on what you’re used to.
For instance, I have had trouble understanding why some stores present both “Bank
transfer” and “Bank transfer (IBAN)” (or just “IBAN”): there’s no difference
to me. (And adding a “SEPA” choice does nothing but confuse things even more.)
It’s just a bank transfer. My bank always wants an IBAN (and, until recently,
a BIC too), and it will decide how much (generally 0€) it will cost me. And if
I don’t have an IBAN to send money to, I can’t make the transfer, except maybe
with a paper form, some hassle, and an hefty fee.

  In addition IBAN/SEPA isn't restricted to Europe only.

SEPA is restricted to the members of European Union, the countries of the European
Free Trade Association (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland), Monaco,
and San-Marino.

With all the overlapping accords, associations, zones, whatever, it may not be
possible to use a strictly hierarchical zoning restriction (like “World / Europe
/ SEPA / EU / France”) for all payment methods.

That's why Bricklink should make Bank transfer available again instead of
only adding IBAN (Europe only) as they did now.
 Author: qwertyboy View Messages Posted By qwertyboy
 Posted: Aug 30, 2017 13:28
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
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 Topic: Administrative
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qwertyboy (3062)

Location:  Canada, Alberta
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 9, 2013 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Maple Bricks
In Administrative, Brickwilbo writes:
  That's why Bricklink should make Bank transfer available again instead of
only adding IBAN (Europe only) as they did now.

You can't fault BrickLink for that. I follow the forum pretty closely, and
pretty much all the hoopla was over IBAN, not generic bank transfers, SEPA or
any other TLA/FLA.

BrickLink has listened to all of everybody's cries and allowed a payment
method they call IBAN. If IBAN is not the technically correct term, but everyone
understands what is meant, and it does provide what people want to do, isn't
that enough? Do we really need to complain over the exact term?

Niek.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 30, 2017 16:09
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
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SylvainLS (24)

Location:  France, Aquitaine-Limousin-Poitou-Charentes
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  In Administrative, Brickwilbo writes:
  That's why Bricklink should make Bank transfer available again instead of
only adding IBAN (Europe only) as they did now.

You can't fault BrickLink for that. I follow the forum pretty closely, and
pretty much all the hoopla was over IBAN, not generic bank transfers, SEPA or
any other TLA/FLA.

Yes we can. BrickLink should know what a bank transfer, IBAN, SEPA, SWIFT, etc.,
mean.
They are the ones who authorize and organize payment methods.

  BrickLink has listened to all of everybody's cries and allowed a payment
method they call IBAN. If IBAN is not the technically correct term, but everyone
understands what is meant, and it does provide what people want to do, isn't
that enough? Do we really need to complain over the exact term?

Not everyone understand what IBAN means.
For instance, French people may understand that “bank transfer” means “virement
bancaire.” However, for identifying a bank account, they will generally refer
to it as a “RIB,” even though it’s (or includes) an IBAN.
And having several payment methods that boil down to exactly the same thing is
confusing.

My bank has three types of bank transfer:
- local or SEPA bank transfers,
- SWIFT bank transfers (= IBAN but out of SEPA, or not in Euro),
- International bank transfers (not SWIFT).

To match that, BrickLink has only:
- Bank transfer
- IBAN
(there are other wire/bank transfer methods, like Western Union, but they don’t
really apply to me or my bank.)

And, when I read ToSes, I surmise sellers choose one or the other, or both, indifferently,
according to what they understand. (Does IBAN means out of SEPA? Does Bank transfer
means not IBAN? …)

It’s a mess.


And let’s not talk about all the other confusing payment methods or the impossibility
to correctly filter them.
Imagine a new buyer, they just want to pay with their VISA debit card. How can
they filter the stores? There’s a “VISA/MasterCard” payment method, or a “Credit/Debit
(powered by Stripe)” payment method that seem to match what they want. But you
can’t filter with multiple methods.
And, to top it off, there’s also PayPal (and maybe others I don’t know about)
with which they could pay with their VISA without much hassle, if only they knew
it.
If they use the “VISA” filter, they’ll miss a lot of stores which could have
accepted their card.

Maybe it’s time for BrickLink to clean up this mess, no?
 Author: qwertyboy View Messages Posted By qwertyboy
 Posted: Aug 30, 2017 18:18
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
 Viewed: 48 times
 Topic: Administrative
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qwertyboy (3062)

Location:  Canada, Alberta
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 9, 2013 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Maple Bricks
In Administrative, SylvainLS writes:
  In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  In Administrative, Brickwilbo writes:
  That's why Bricklink should make Bank transfer available again instead of
only adding IBAN (Europe only) as they did now.

You can't fault BrickLink for that. I follow the forum pretty closely, and
pretty much all the hoopla was over IBAN, not generic bank transfers, SEPA or
any other TLA/FLA.

Yes we can. BrickLink should know what a bank transfer, IBAN, SEPA, SWIFT, etc.,
mean.
They are the ones who authorize and organize payment methods.

  BrickLink has listened to all of everybody's cries and allowed a payment
method they call IBAN. If IBAN is not the technically correct term, but everyone
understands what is meant, and it does provide what people want to do, isn't
that enough? Do we really need to complain over the exact term?

Not everyone understand what IBAN means.
For instance, French people may understand that “bank transfer” means “virement
bancaire.” However, for identifying a bank account, they will generally refer
to it as a “RIB,” even though it’s (or includes) an IBAN.
And having several payment methods that boil down to exactly the same thing is
confusing.

My bank has three types of bank transfer:
- local or SEPA bank transfers,
- SWIFT bank transfers (= IBAN but out of SEPA, or not in Euro),
- International bank transfers (not SWIFT).

To match that, BrickLink has only:
- Bank transfer
- IBAN
(there are other wire/bank transfer methods, like Western Union, but they don’t
really apply to me or my bank.)

And, when I read ToSes, I surmise sellers choose one or the other, or both, indifferently,
according to what they understand. (Does IBAN means out of SEPA? Does Bank transfer
means not IBAN? …)

It’s a mess.


And let’s not talk about all the other confusing payment methods or the impossibility
to correctly filter them.
Imagine a new buyer, they just want to pay with their VISA debit card. How can
they filter the stores? There’s a “VISA/MasterCard” payment method, or a “Credit/Debit
(powered by Stripe)” payment method that seem to match what they want. But you
can’t filter with multiple methods.
And, to top it off, there’s also PayPal (and maybe others I don’t know about)
with which they could pay with their VISA without much hassle, if only they knew
it.
If they use the “VISA” filter, they’ll miss a lot of stores which could have
accepted their card.

Maybe it’s time for BrickLink to clean up this mess, no?

My point is, people habe _specifically_ been asking about allowing IBAN payments.
BL now offers that. And now people start complaining the naming is wrong. Make
up your minds guys. If you don't want it to be IBAN, you should have complained
earlier. People ask for IBAN, BL provides IBAN, yay BL!

Niek.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 30, 2017 19:10
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
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 Topic: Administrative
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SylvainLS (24)

Location:  France, Aquitaine-Limousin-Poitou-Charentes
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  […]
My point is, people habe _specifically_ been asking about allowing IBAN payments.
BL now offers that. And now people start complaining the naming is wrong. Make
up your minds guys. If you don't want it to be IBAN, you should have complained
earlier. People ask for IBAN, BL provides IBAN, yay BL!

I get (and got) your point. And I agree that BL gave people what they wanted.
Thing is, BL should know better. It’s not that difficult to understand what these
things means/are.

You don’t give people what they want, you give them what they need.
But, well, giving them what they want is still better than giving them what they
neither want nor need (the MOC-thing, Mosaic…)
 Author: qwertyboy View Messages Posted By qwertyboy
 Posted: Aug 30, 2017 23:15
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
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qwertyboy (3062)

Location:  Canada, Alberta
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 9, 2013 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store: Maple Bricks
In Administrative, SylvainLS writes:
  In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  […]
My point is, people habe _specifically_ been asking about allowing IBAN payments.
BL now offers that. And now people start complaining the naming is wrong. Make
up your minds guys. If you don't want it to be IBAN, you should have complained
earlier. People ask for IBAN, BL provides IBAN, yay BL!

I get (and got) your point. And I agree that BL gave people what they wanted.
Thing is, BL should know better. It’s not that difficult to understand what these
things means/are.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fly with me. If it is "not that difficult
to understand", why are people in the forum apparently asking for the wrong thing
(as you seem to suggest) while THEY are the ones actually using (or wanting to
use) it? Should these people not be able to specify exactly what seems to be
ubiquitous in their own countries? Why do you think BL should know better when
IBAN/SEPA/whatever is very rarely if ever used on their side of the pond? (And
please don't make this an argument about being US-centric - the plain fact
is that BL development is primarily based in the US, it doesn't mean they
plan on building a US-centric system.)

  You don’t give people what they want, you give them what they need.

The whole idea of forum suggestions is that users can provide input for future
features. Look back at the suggestion. It was pretty clear in that thread, and
nobody (that I can see) tried to steer the discussion away from IBAN and to some
other terminology. Why did you not pipe up then?

Suggestion made, suggestion implemented as requested. Don't start blaming
BL, start blaming either yourself or your fellow posters.

Niek.
 Author: popsicle View Messages Posted By popsicle
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 00:56
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
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popsicle (5397)

Location:  USA, Washington
Member Since Contact Type Status
Feb 21, 2006 Contact Member Seller
Buying Privileges - OKSelling Privileges - OK
Store Closed Store: ConstrucToys
In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  In Administrative, SylvainLS writes:
  In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  […]
My point is, people habe _specifically_ been asking about allowing IBAN payments.
BL now offers that. And now people start complaining the naming is wrong. Make
up your minds guys. If you don't want it to be IBAN, you should have complained
earlier. People ask for IBAN, BL provides IBAN, yay BL!

I get (and got) your point. And I agree that BL gave people what they wanted.
Thing is, BL should know better. It’s not that difficult to understand what these
things means/are.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fly with me. If it is "not that difficult
to understand", why are people in the forum apparently asking for the wrong thing
(as you seem to suggest) while THEY are the ones actually using (or wanting to
use) it? Should these people not be able to specify exactly what seems to be
ubiquitous in their own countries?

A good question, and I've gotta admit that I'm curious as to what the
reply will be. It's sure to be a doozy....

  
  You don’t give people what they want, you give them what they need.

The whole idea of forum suggestions is that users can provide input for future
features. Look back at the suggestion. It was pretty clear in that thread, and
nobody (that I can see) tried to steer the discussion away from IBAN and to some
other terminology. Why did you not pipe up then?

Make sure you stretch before bending yourself into a pretzel in answering this
one. But I'm sure Sylvain is up to it

  Suggestion made, suggestion implemented as requested. Don't start blaming
BL, start blaming either yourself or your fellow posters.

a hearty +1

You bring sensibleness to the forum, Niek. Thank you for that.

I always look forward to your posts, the prudence and common sense feels like
a breath-of-fresh-air, in reading them.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 08:18
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
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 Topic: Administrative
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SylvainLS (24)

Location:  France, Aquitaine-Limousin-Poitou-Charentes
Member Since Contact Type Status
Apr 25, 2014 Contact Member Buyer
Buying Privileges - OK
In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  […]
I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fly with me. If it is "not that difficult
to understand", why are people in the forum apparently asking for the wrong thing
(as you seem to suggest) while THEY are the ones actually using (or wanting to
use) it? Should these people not be able to specify exactly what seems to be
ubiquitous in their own countries? Why do you think BL should know better when
IBAN/SEPA/whatever is very rarely if ever used on their side of the pond?

Because it’s not hard to read a Wikipedia entry to know what it’s all about?
Or ask your bank?

   (And
please don't make this an argument about being US-centric - the plain fact
is that BL development is primarily based in the US, it doesn't mean they
plan on building a US-centric system.)

Why would I? Wikipedia works the same both sides of the pond. Bank transfers
with IBAN work the same both sides of the pond, and they even work across the
pond.

(Well, I guess BL has a special Wikipedia as they managed to use the wrong names
for France’s régions, several months (years) after the new names were officially
ratified and correctly referenced in en.WP. — Cato)

  
  You don’t give people what they want, you give them what they need.

The whole idea of forum suggestions is that users can provide input for future
features.

A minimum of thinking could be expected.

Say I make a suggestion to add “Eastern Coalition transfer.” Shouldn’t BL at
least check what that is, whether it even exists?

As Brickwilbo said, it seems “IBAN” was the option that was asked for (when it
was first added), along with a “Paypal (outside Euro only)” option. That’s not
what was provided by BL.
So BL thought about it then and didn’t blindly implement the suggestion as requested.

Yes, at the time, people asked for “IBAN.” It seems some people (Dutch people
at least ) use the metonym “IBAN” for “bank transfer with an IBAN” or even
“bank transfer in €.” It didn’t prevent BL to check what they meant and what
IBAN exactly is or how bank transfers work.
Pity they didn’t because what they came with, an “IBAN (Europe only)” option
along a “Bank transfer” option, is a nonsense. IBAN works all around the world
(USA included) and it’s rare to make a bank transfer without using an IBAN to
identify the recipient.

I said earlier I din’t exactly know what the difference was supposed to be between
“Bank transfer” and “IBAN.” Thanks to Brickwilbo’s remark, I guess it should
have been “International bank transfer” and “Bank transfer (€ only).”

   Look back at the suggestion.

Yes, let’s do that:

From the very suggestion ( https://www.bricklink.com/messageThread.asp?ID=224323&nID=1051269
): “Please support my suggestion to re-enable IBAN/Bank transfer […].”

As I said earlier, “IBAN” and “Bank transfer” are the two options BL already
had and the suggestion uses the names of both those options.

Teup also used both terms in the body of the suggestion.

   It was pretty clear in that thread, and
nobody (that I can see) tried to steer the discussion away from IBAN and to some
other terminology.

The answers didn’t expand on the name. They were short, some using “IBAN” and
others “bank transfer.” They just wanted an offline “bank transfer or IBAN” option.

   Why did you not pipe up then?

Because I don’t read all the suggestions / posts? Nor I’m obligated to.
Because, even had I read it, the suggestion asked about both “IBAN” and “Bank
transfer,” already existing options?
Because the question of the option’s name, the only option reinstated, only came
up afterward, in a more general thread, and so I only started to think about
it then?

  Suggestion made, suggestion implemented as requested. Don't start blaming
BL, start blaming either yourself or your fellow posters.

I didn’t start blaming BL. I started reflecting on names and ended up blaming
BL
 Author: qwertyboy View Messages Posted By qwertyboy
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 10:35
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
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qwertyboy (3062)

Location:  Canada, Alberta
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Well, it is obvious I am way over my head with all this complex banking and terminology.
While all this is a non-issue for me, I am always happy to see BL listening to
people's input and implementing new features. I for one thought they did
do this correctly here, but I (and by the looks of it even several European sellers)
was apparently mistaken.

I suggest you hash things out with others about what _exactly_ should be the
correct choices for payment options, and draft a new suggestion, so people can
vote, and BL can review it.

I will have to tune out here, as frankly I have lost interest in this word-wrangling.

Niek.
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 11:28
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yorbrick (584)

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In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  Well, it is obvious I am way over my head with all this complex banking and terminology.
While all this is a non-issue for me, I am always happy to see BL listening to
people's input and implementing new features. I for one thought they did
do this correctly here, but I (and by the looks of it even several European sellers)
was apparently mistaken.

I suggest you hash things out with others about what _exactly_ should be the
correct choices for payment options, and draft a new suggestion, so people can
vote, and BL can review it.

I will have to tune out here, as frankly I have lost interest in this word-wrangling.

Niek.

I don't think it needs a vote. They should put as many options as everyone
needs, and let the seller select which ones to show. They can then use the ones
that are most meaningful for them.
 Author: popsicle View Messages Posted By popsicle
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 11:56
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popsicle (5397)

Location:  USA, Washington
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In Administrative, yorbrick writes:
  In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  Well, it is obvious I am way over my head with all this complex banking and terminology.
While all this is a non-issue for me, I am always happy to see BL listening to
people's input and implementing new features. I for one thought they did
do this correctly here, but I (and by the looks of it even several European sellers)
was apparently mistaken.

I suggest you hash things out with others about what _exactly_ should be the
correct choices for payment options, and draft a new suggestion, so people can
vote, and BL can review it.

I will have to tune out here, as frankly I have lost interest in this word-wrangling.

Niek.

I don't think it needs a vote. They should put as many options as everyone
needs, and let the seller select which ones to show. They can then use the ones
that are most meaningful for them.

+1 from another one of my favorite reads on the forum, yorbrick. Always level-headed
with sensible ideas.
 Author: WoutR View Messages Posted By WoutR
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 12:56
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
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WoutR (607)

Location:  Netherlands, Zuid-Holland
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In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  In Administrative, SylvainLS writes:
  In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  […]
My point is, people habe _specifically_ been asking about allowing IBAN payments.
BL now offers that. And now people start complaining the naming is wrong. Make
up your minds guys. If you don't want it to be IBAN, you should have complained
earlier. People ask for IBAN, BL provides IBAN, yay BL!

I get (and got) your point. And I agree that BL gave people what they wanted.
Thing is, BL should know better. It’s not that difficult to understand what these
things means/are.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fly with me. If it is "not that difficult
to understand", why are people in the forum apparently asking for the wrong thing
(as you seem to suggest) while THEY are the ones actually using (or wanting to
use) it? Should these people not be able to specify exactly what seems to be
ubiquitous in their own countries? Why do you think BL should know better when
IBAN/SEPA/whatever is very rarely if ever used on their side of the pond? (And
please don't make this an argument about being US-centric - the plain fact
is that BL development is primarily based in the US, it doesn't mean they
plan on building a US-centric system.)

  You don’t give people what they want, you give them what they need.

The whole idea of forum suggestions is that users can provide input for future
features. Look back at the suggestion. It was pretty clear in that thread, and
nobody (that I can see) tried to steer the discussion away from IBAN and to some
other terminology. Why did you not pipe up then?

Suggestion made, suggestion implemented as requested. Don't start blaming
BL, start blaming either yourself or your fellow posters.

Niek.

The difference is between the part that the people see and use, and the system
behind it that the banks use.

When I make a bank transfer, I simply need a bank account number. That is the
IBAN. It does not matter to me if the bank uses SWIFT or SEPA or whatever to
arrange the payment.

Banks have been promoting the IBAN. It has completely replaced the old national
bank account numbers in the Netherlands. To keep things simple, banks have educated
us about using the new numbers and have not emphasised the systems behind it.
People simply talk about a "bank transfer" and use the IBAN in everyday life,
even when the payment system used formally has different names.
 Author: Daragh View Messages Posted By Daragh
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 07:01
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Daragh (813)

Location:  Ireland, Dublin
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I see where you are coming from regarding the correct naming of the process and
the confusion generated by the different options, however I think there may be
just as much confusion within the general public and possibly based on the posts
so far regional differences in what people think each of the payment methods
mean.

Personally I believe that for Ireland most people understand what "IBAN" means
and I would be loathe to see it changed to "IBAN Direct Debit", here Direct Debit
generally means a recurring payment, usually monthly and rarely annually. Enough
people have being stung by sites where they sign up once not realising they have
entered a monthly or annual payment agreement and the issues getting them cancelled
at a future date when they notice these debits on their account - so any reference
to "Direct Debit" would be, in my view detrimental to IBAN take-up rate.

Regarding SEPA I don't believe most customers (and probably most sellers)
understand what that is either, so I don't envy BL trying to clear this mess
up, I think they did a good job responding to member requests to leave "IBAN"
available to new sellers and that's a good thing, the listened and they responded.



In Administrative, SylvainLS writes:
  In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  […]
My point is, people habe _specifically_ been asking about allowing IBAN payments.
BL now offers that. And now people start complaining the naming is wrong. Make
up your minds guys. If you don't want it to be IBAN, you should have complained
earlier. People ask for IBAN, BL provides IBAN, yay BL!

I get (and got) your point. And I agree that BL gave people what they wanted.
Thing is, BL should know better. It’s not that difficult to understand what these
things means/are.

You don’t give people what they want, you give them what they need.
But, well, giving them what they want is still better than giving them what they
neither want nor need (the MOC-thing, Mosaic…)
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 09:08
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
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SylvainLS (24)

Location:  France, Aquitaine-Limousin-Poitou-Charentes
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In Administrative, Daragh writes:
  I see where you are coming from regarding the correct naming of the process and
the confusion generated by the different options, however I think there may be
just as much confusion within the general public and possibly based on the posts
so far regional differences in what people think each of the payment methods
mean.

Absolutely.

  Personally I believe that for Ireland most people understand what "IBAN" means
and I would be loathe to see it changed to "IBAN Direct Debit", here Direct Debit
generally means a recurring payment, usually monthly and rarely annually. Enough
people have being stung by sites where they sign up once not realising they have
entered a monthly or annual payment agreement and the issues getting them cancelled
at a future date when they notice these debits on their account - so any reference
to "Direct Debit" would be, in my view detrimental to IBAN take-up rate.

“Direct Debit” is an error (it’s what you say, a payment for bills, without specific
consent). “Credit transfer” would be the proper term.

  Regarding SEPA I don't believe most customers (and probably most sellers)
understand what that is either, so I don't envy BL trying to clear this mess
up,

Yes, “SEPA Credit transfer” is too specialized.

The proper names are hard to come by because when you go to your bank, you just
make a “bank transfer” and then comes the questions about currency, countries,
and IBAN.

BL (and maybe people asking for “IBAN”) wants to separate the generic “bank transfer”
from “bank transfer in € inside SEPA” (well, they first wanted to have an option
to only accept Paypal outside SEPA).

If a separation is necessary, I guess it should be:
“Bank transfer (without IBAN)” (who does that, North Korea?)
“Bank transfer (with IBAN)”
“Bank transfer in € inside SEPA (EU + Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein
+ Monaco, San-Marino)”
Yes, that’s long names

(Note that other options, like “Western Union transfer,” also come under the
“bank transfer” umbrella.)

   I think they did a good job responding to member requests to leave "IBAN"
available to new sellers and that's a good thing, the listened and they responded.

Actually, the request was for “IBAN/bank transfer”
But, yeah, you get used to the little quirks in the names/organization. However
as the question of the name came up, I can’t be blamed for my participating
 Author: Brickwilbo View Messages Posted By Brickwilbo
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 01:09
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Brickwilbo (1362)

Location:  Netherlands, Gelderland
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In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  In Administrative, SylvainLS writes:
  In Administrative, qwertyboy writes:
  In Administrative, Brickwilbo writes:
  That's why Bricklink should make Bank transfer available again instead of
only adding IBAN (Europe only) as they did now.

You can't fault BrickLink for that. I follow the forum pretty closely, and
pretty much all the hoopla was over IBAN, not generic bank transfers, SEPA or
any other TLA/FLA.

Yes we can. BrickLink should know what a bank transfer, IBAN, SEPA, SWIFT, etc.,
mean.
They are the ones who authorize and organize payment methods.

  BrickLink has listened to all of everybody's cries and allowed a payment
method they call IBAN. If IBAN is not the technically correct term, but everyone
understands what is meant, and it does provide what people want to do, isn't
that enough? Do we really need to complain over the exact term?

Not everyone understand what IBAN means.
For instance, French people may understand that “bank transfer” means “virement
bancaire.” However, for identifying a bank account, they will generally refer
to it as a “RIB,” even though it’s (or includes) an IBAN.
And having several payment methods that boil down to exactly the same thing is
confusing.

My bank has three types of bank transfer:
- local or SEPA bank transfers,
- SWIFT bank transfers (= IBAN but out of SEPA, or not in Euro),
- International bank transfers (not SWIFT).

To match that, BrickLink has only:
- Bank transfer
- IBAN
(there are other wire/bank transfer methods, like Western Union, but they don’t
really apply to me or my bank.)

And, when I read ToSes, I surmise sellers choose one or the other, or both, indifferently,
according to what they understand. (Does IBAN means out of SEPA? Does Bank transfer
means not IBAN? …)

It’s a mess.


And let’s not talk about all the other confusing payment methods or the impossibility
to correctly filter them.
Imagine a new buyer, they just want to pay with their VISA debit card. How can
they filter the stores? There’s a “VISA/MasterCard” payment method, or a “Credit/Debit
(powered by Stripe)” payment method that seem to match what they want. But you
can’t filter with multiple methods.
And, to top it off, there’s also PayPal (and maybe others I don’t know about)
with which they could pay with their VISA without much hassle, if only they knew
it.
If they use the “VISA” filter, they’ll miss a lot of stores which could have
accepted their card.

Maybe it’s time for BrickLink to clean up this mess, no?

My point is, people habe _specifically_ been asking about allowing IBAN payments.
BL now offers that. And now people start complaining the naming is wrong. Make
up your minds guys. If you don't want it to be IBAN, you should have complained
earlier. People ask for IBAN, BL provides IBAN, yay BL!

Niek.

Hi Niek,

People asked for IBAN, but Bricklink provided IBAN (Europe only).
People also asked for PayPal (outside Euro countries only), but Bricklink provided
an IBAN (Europe only).
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 09:38
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
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yorbrick (584)

Location:  United Kingdom, England
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  Anyway, it all depends on what you’re used to.
For instance, I have had trouble understanding why some stores present both “Bank
transfer” and “Bank transfer (IBAN)” (or just “IBAN”): there’s no difference
to me. (And adding a “SEPA” choice does nothing but confuse things even more.)
It’s just a bank transfer. My bank always wants an IBAN (and, until recently,
a BIC too), and it will decide how much (generally 0€) it will cost me. And if
I don’t have an IBAN to send money to, I can’t make the transfer, except maybe
with a paper form, some hassle, and an hefty fee.

In the UK, we can do a bank transfer without having the full IBAN. We just need
the sort code and bank account number, and not the BIC/SWIFT part of the full
IBAN.

Putting IBAN for a UK-UK transaction may confuse people (that's for international!),
whereas using "bank transfer" makes more sense.
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 09:48
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SylvainLS (24)

Location:  France, Aquitaine-Limousin-Poitou-Charentes
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In Administrative, yorbrick writes:
  […]
In the UK, we can do a bank transfer without having the full IBAN. We just need
the sort code and bank account number, and not the BIC/SWIFT part of the full
IBAN.

To nitpick again , BIC isn’t part of IBAN.
The BIC part of SWIFT is the bank identifier (properly “Business Identifier Code,”
not every business is a “bank”). The bank is already coded in the IBAN (but BIC
is still sometimes asked besides IBAN).

  Putting IBAN for a UK-UK transaction may confuse people (that's for international!),
whereas using "bank transfer" makes more sense.

See, another example where the “bank transfer” / “IBAN” dichotomy is confusing:
which is local only, or international?
 Author: yorbrick View Messages Posted By yorbrick
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 10:12
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
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yorbrick (584)

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In Administrative, SylvainLS writes:
  In Administrative, yorbrick writes:
  […]
In the UK, we can do a bank transfer without having the full IBAN. We just need
the sort code and bank account number, and not the BIC/SWIFT part of the full
IBAN.

To nitpick again , BIC isn’t part of IBAN.
The BIC part of SWIFT is the bank identifier (properly “Business Identifier Code,”
not every business is a “bank”). The bank is already coded in the IBAN (but BIC
is still sometimes asked besides IBAN).

As we tend to be focussed on branch and bank account numbers, our banks often
refer to the second four characters as the BIC code part rather than the bank
code (as that can be confused with sort code). Like here: https://www.iban.com/united-kingdom.html

And to complicate it further, we can get the BIC code from the sort code via
a checker like this one: https://www.sortcodes.co.uk/checker.html

So we can generate most of it from the sort code and bank account number, just
leaving the checksum number.

And as shown in the image, I cannot do an IBAN transfer via my bank to France,
for example, without including the separate BIC number. I have a few bank accounts
and they all insist on that. They simply refuse to allow you to continue without
it.

  
  Putting IBAN for a UK-UK transaction may confuse people (that's for international!),
whereas using "bank transfer" makes more sense.

See, another example where the “bank transfer” / “IBAN” dichotomy is confusing:
which is local only, or international?

Bank transfer formally covers both (it is a transfer from a bank, whether national
or international) but we need different information for national and international
and we can use an IBAN to do a national transfer too, so that is also both national
and international.

Hopefully, with automatic checkout, it will be possible to show buyers in country
X only the options available for them, so that you can use localised language.
So, for me, a UK buyer will see "bank transfer" but a European "IBAN". Although
both will probably use PayPal anyway!
 
 Author: SylvainLS View Messages Posted By SylvainLS
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 12:46
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SylvainLS (24)

Location:  France, Aquitaine-Limousin-Poitou-Charentes
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In Administrative, yorbrick writes:
  […]
  To nitpick again , BIC isn’t part of IBAN.
The BIC part of SWIFT is the bank identifier (properly “Business Identifier Code,”
not every business is a “bank”). The bank is already coded in the IBAN (but BIC
is still sometimes asked besides IBAN).

As we tend to be focussed on branch and bank account numbers, our banks often
refer to the second four characters as the BIC code part rather than the bank
code (as that can be confused with sort code). Like here: https://www.iban.com/united-kingdom.html

And to complicate it further, we can get the BIC code from the sort code via
a checker like this one: https://www.sortcodes.co.uk/checker.html

The complete BIC is longer than just the bank code, it’s 4 letters bank code
+ 2 letters country + 2 letters or digits + an optional 3 letters or digits (or
XXX).

For instance, BIC for Société Générale: SOGEFRPP. Bank code inside the IBAN:
30003.

French bank codes are 5 digits, not 4 letters, so the BIC is totally foreign,
but IBAN is easier, especially for those without letters in their bank account
numbers: IBAN is then just FR76 + the “old” bank account number (with letters,
some modifications are needed).

  So we can generate most of it from the sort code and bank account number, just
leaving the checksum number.

Which is not that hard to compute either

  And as shown in the image, I cannot do an IBAN transfer via my bank to France,
for example, without including the separate BIC number. I have a few bank accounts
and they all insist on that. They simply refuse to allow you to continue without
it.

Yeah, I’ve 2 banks, Société Générale and Boursorama. Boursorama is the “online-only”
daughter of SG but their rules and forms are different. SG still asked for BIC
the last time I added an account. Boursorama wants a “bank name” where you can
put anything, BIC or name.

  […]
  See, another example where the “bank transfer” / “IBAN” dichotomy is confusing:
which is local only, or international?

Bank transfer formally covers both (it is a transfer from a bank, whether national
or international) but we need different information for national and international
and we can use an IBAN to do a national transfer too, so that is also both national
and international.

Yes, that’s my gripe with BL’s options. “IBAN” seems to be taken for “in € in
SEPA” by (too) many people but it can both mean just “international” or “local
or international,” and it certainly does not mean “in €” or “in EU” (and even
less “in Europe”).

  Hopefully, with automatic checkout, it will be possible to show buyers in country
X only the options available for them, so that you can use localised language.
So, for me, a UK buyer will see "bank transfer" but a European "IBAN".

That’s why they made “SEPA:” so that transfers in the whole area are like (and
cost as much as) local transfers (provided they are in € ). So there’ll be
only one option in BL. An option just a few will understand

Anyway, the sellers still need to understand what they’re proposing/using and
BL should know when to show what. So BL needs to provide a way for the sellers
(who knows what their bank want and charge) to accept or not their buyers to
pay by bank transfer and with which currencies (and not only “world” / “EU” /
“country”).

  Although both will probably use PayPal anyway!

I used PayPal on BL only once out of 27 orders
And I have been confused a few times when I had the choice between “bank transfer”
and “IBAN” (what does that particular seller means by that?). Like when some
websites propose both “Carte Bleue” and “VISA” while my credit/debit card is
a “Carte Bleue VISA”
 Author: paulvdb View Messages Posted By paulvdb
 Posted: Aug 31, 2017 00:13
 Subject: Re: 8/29/2017 Site Update
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paulvdb (5949)

Location:  Netherlands, Overijssel
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In Administrative, therobo writes:
  In Administrative, Admin_Jaclyn writes:
  08/29/2017 Site Update
=====================

Site improvements:

-Disliked stores will now be excluded from Easy Buy results.
-Updated Store Payment Methods help page regarding IBAN.
https://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=18

Hi Jaclyn,
thanx for updating the help.

However, IBAN is an outdated term for the payment type, it now should read
SEPA Direct Debit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

The term IBAN still exists but only as abbreviation for
International Bank Account Number.

Ronald

The term direct debit should not be used here. Direct debit is a type of payment
where you authorize a business to take (usually recurring) payments from your
account. This is often used here in The Netherlands for payments for example
for electricity, water, internet, phone and other subscriptions that have recurring
(usually monthly) payments.

Based on the wikipedia article the correct term for the type of payment that
is used for Bricklink orders would be SEPA Credit Transfer.