| Discussion Forum: Thread 198756 |
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| | | Author: | viejos  | | Posted: | Dec 17, 2015 23:54 | | Subject: | Inventory Change Request for Set 10236-1 | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Inventories Requests (Entry) | | Status: | Open | |
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| Please make changes to the following inventory:
* Delete 3 Part 4085c Tan Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Vertical - Type 3 (thick U clip) (match ID 6)
* Change 3 Part Tan 4085d Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Vertical - Type 4 (thick open O clip) {Alternate to Regular}
Comments from Submitter:
This is one of the most confusing change logs in our entire inventory system. Whether or not this is due to a system failure or rejected changes that don't show up any more (or a bit of both), we cannot accept that the "c" version was intentionally added to the inventory.
Anyhow, this is the first change in a major effort to correct inventories with the 4085 part variants.
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| | | | | Author: | therobo | | Posted: | Dec 18, 2015 05:14 | | Subject: | Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 10236-1 | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Inventories Requests | |
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| In Inventories Requests, viejos writes:
| | Please make changes to the following inventory:
* Delete 3 Part 4085c Tan Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Vertical - Type 3 (thick U clip) (match ID 6)
* Change 3 Part Tan 4085d Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Vertical - Type 4 (thick open O clip) {Alternate to Regular}
Comments from Submitter:
This is one of the most confusing change logs in our entire inventory system. Whether or not this is due to a system failure or rejected changes that don't show up any more (or a bit of both), we cannot accept that the "c" version was intentionally added to the inventory.
Anyhow, this is the first change in a major effort to correct inventories with the 4085 part variants.
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No tan 4085 variant appeared in sets before 2013.
The PCC 6029889 found in instructions for sure was assigned by TLG to the d-type,
as this is the variant which is in production.
Before 2013, tan 4085x parts were produced as 'Q' parts (for parks etc.).
Most likely as c-type and later as b-type, according to the range of the PCCs.
So it *IS* possible that TLG - notoriously known for not throwing anything away
- mixed the newly produced d-type with old stock c-types and b-types and packed
them into sets.
The general question is if BrickLink inventories should reflect only variants
which are widely found in sets or if the rare outliers should be also included
or - as with your change - better not included.
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| | | | | | | Author: | viejos | | Posted: | Dec 18, 2015 09:13 | | Subject: | Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 10236-1 | | Viewed: | 24 times | | Topic: | Inventories Requests | |
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| In Inventories Requests, therobo writes:
| | In Inventories Requests, viejos writes:
| | Please make changes to the following inventory:
* Delete 3 Part 4085c Tan Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Vertical - Type 3 (thick U clip) (match ID 6)
* Change 3 Part Tan 4085d Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Vertical - Type 4 (thick open O clip) {Alternate to Regular}
Comments from Submitter:
This is one of the most confusing change logs in our entire inventory system. Whether or not this is due to a system failure or rejected changes that don't show up any more (or a bit of both), we cannot accept that the "c" version was intentionally added to the inventory.
Anyhow, this is the first change in a major effort to correct inventories with the 4085 part variants.
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No tan 4085 variant appeared in sets before 2013.
The PCC 6029889 found in instructions for sure was assigned by TLG to the d-type,
as this is the variant which is in production.
Before 2013, tan 4085x parts were produced as 'Q' parts (for parks etc.).
Most likely as c-type and later as b-type, according to the range of the PCCs.
So it *IS* possible that TLG - notoriously known for not throwing anything away
- mixed the newly produced d-type with old stock c-types and b-types and packed
them into sets.
The general question is if BrickLink inventories should reflect only variants
which are widely found in sets or if the rare outliers should be also included
or - as with your change - better not included.
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I agree there is a possibility of the c part in tan in this inventory, but the
question is - do we have a reliable report of that variant in this set? The change
log reads wrong for this set - member BUC was not trying to add 4032b (look at
Lordskylark's requests - 4032b was already in the inventory), and I believe
that 4085c in Tan was also already present, in what can be considered a very
inaccurately submitted inventory. There is a technical flaw in the log that is
obscuring submitter's intentions.
But even if BUC were trying to add the c type, I still think the chances are
very high that the part he really had was the b type. I remember before I got
my head wrapped around the idea that the b type had come back *after* the c type,
I would have assumed that if I didn't have the modern d type, that my other
option was c, without ever checking the part against b. Besides, had the large
images for these variants been updated by Nov. 2013? There are just so many ways
this could go wrong that I am unwilling to believe an outlying piece of data
in this case.
There is a philosophy of variants that attempts to "cover" all reasonable possibilities
of a variant in a given inventory, with the idea that inventories are little
more than a tool for partout. If carried to an extreme, people get into hot water
over this type of thing (remember the bogie plates).
A good example of this philosophy at work is found in the change log for this
set:
[g=3835]
http://www.bricklink.com/catalogInvChangeItem.asp?itemType=G&itemNo=3835&viewDate=Y&viewStatus=1
What are the chances of one person finding both b and d types in their set(s)
in all three colors? What are the chances of any set containing 3 different variants
of the same part, in three different colors? Not very likely. This is a typical
"blanket job", and as such has prevented the accumulation of true variants.
The only thing we can reasonably ascertain is that the b version in Medium Blue
was found in the set. We have an image of the part in that color from the person
that submitted the changes.
I have to admit that with such ingrained misunderstanding and resulting errors
in inventories, the thought has crossed my mind to block off a section of years
and revert this part to an undetermined version. Then, as people submitted their
findings, we would get a true picture of what actually happened. But to my knowledge,
this has never been done before, and I'm sure there would be complaints of
erasing people's work.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | paulvdb | | Posted: | Dec 18, 2015 09:29 | | Subject: | Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 10236-1 | | Viewed: | 19 times | | Topic: | Inventories Requests | |
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| In Inventories Requests, viejos writes:
| | There is a philosophy of variants that attempts to "cover" all reasonable possibilities
of a variant in a given inventory, with the idea that inventories are little
more than a tool for partout. If carried to an extreme, people get into hot water
over this type of thing (remember the bogie plates).
A good example of this philosophy at work is found in the change log for this
set:
[g=3835]
http://www.bricklink.com/catalogInvChangeItem.asp?itemType=G&itemNo=3835&viewDate=Y&viewStatus=1
What are the chances of one person finding both b and d types in their set(s)
in all three colors? What are the chances of any set containing 3 different variants
of the same part, in three different colors? Not very likely. This is a typical
"blanket job", and as such has prevented the accumulation of true variants.
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For modern sets I've often found b and d variants in the same set and the
chances of finding both variants in multiple colors grow when you part out multiples
of a set. For the Robo Champ game I'd say that it's very unlikely that
the b variant is the only one that was ever present in the set which is what
the inventory says after your recent changes to it. Based on the timelines of
the variants I'd say that it's certainly possible that all three variants
were in that set.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | viejos | | Posted: | Dec 18, 2015 10:09 | | Subject: | Re: Inventory Change Request for Set 10236-1 | | Viewed: | 23 times | | Topic: | Inventories Requests | |
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| In Inventories Requests, paulvdb writes:
| | In Inventories Requests, viejos writes:
| | There is a philosophy of variants that attempts to "cover" all reasonable possibilities
of a variant in a given inventory, with the idea that inventories are little
more than a tool for partout. If carried to an extreme, people get into hot water
over this type of thing (remember the bogie plates).
A good example of this philosophy at work is found in the change log for this
set:
[g=3835]
http://www.bricklink.com/catalogInvChangeItem.asp?itemType=G&itemNo=3835&viewDate=Y&viewStatus=1
What are the chances of one person finding both b and d types in their set(s)
in all three colors? What are the chances of any set containing 3 different variants
of the same part, in three different colors? Not very likely. This is a typical
"blanket job", and as such has prevented the accumulation of true variants.
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For modern sets I've often found b and d variants in the same set and the
chances of finding both variants in multiple colors grow when you part out multiples
of a set. For the Robo Champ game I'd say that it's very unlikely that
the b variant is the only one that was ever present in the set which is what
the inventory says after your recent changes to it. Based on the timelines of
the variants I'd say that it's certainly possible that all three variants
were in that set.
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When someone submits a 2015 inventory that truthfully has only 4085b, do we add
4085d just because we know that it's likely? You as an inventory submitter
or adjuster would never do that, because you take pains to examine the details
and report only what you find.
But don't expect other submitters to operate according to those standards.
We as Inv Admins see a lot of silliness when it comes to variants, ranging from
people who are largely unaware, to those who try but make mistakes, all the way
to those who intentionally misrepresent their findings.
The red flag in this inventory was the c variant in Medium Blue. That variant
almost certainly was never produced, so its inclusion taints the reliability
of the whole inventory. Sure, the d variant is a possibility for later production
runs, but I don't want to add it to the set unless I am sure.
In this process of sorting out the 4085 variants, there is going to have to be
some cutting away of unsubstantiated occurrences. And I will admit from the outset
that I very well may overstep my bounds from time to time. But this is the cost
of sorting out a mess of this size - like I mentioned upthread, perhaps the best
way to do this is to start over again with a few of the troublesome years by
resetting the part to the undetermined entry.
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