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| | | Author: | Pokernut  | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 10:51 | | Subject: | Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 401 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | | Status: | Open | | Vote: | [Yes|No] | |
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| There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
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| | | | | Author: | legoman77 | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 11:03 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 78 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
Great idea, but Bricklink will not change. They do not care and they do not
have the sellers back on this one. They should try to help the seller as a seller
has enough to do.
John P
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| | | | | | | Author: | TheBrickGuys | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 12:05 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 65 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, legoman77 writes:
| | In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
Great idea, but Bricklink will not change. They do not care and they do not
have the sellers back on this one. They should try to help the seller as a seller
has enough to do.
John P
|
Have they personally told you or someone you know that they dont care or is this
simply an assumption based on your the fact that they dont stop it from hapening?
If the latter is true then your statement is based more on your feelings and
NOT FACTS.
Jim
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | legoman77 | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 12:17 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 57 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, TheBrickGuys writes:
| | In Suggestions, legoman77 writes:
| | In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
Great idea, but Bricklink will not change. They do not care and they do not
have the sellers back on this one. They should try to help the seller as a seller
has enough to do.
John P
|
Have they personally told you or someone you know that they dont care or is this
simply an assumption based on your the fact that they dont stop it from hapening?
If the latter is true then your statement is based more on your feelings and
NOT FACTS.
Jim
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I have just seen over the years nothing being done.
This subject comes up every few months. If you can show me some postitive action
by BL I would be glad to see it. The is no WCF 3 strike rule. Wanted Customs
Fraud. If they do this it would help sellers.
Not just feelings but lack of evidence of anything being done.
John P
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| | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 11:04 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 85 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
yes
back in 2011 (can't believe its that long ago)-
http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=592577
Robert
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| | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 11:06 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 69 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
Voted yes. I made pretty much the same suggestion in January of 2011:
http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=504932
Thor
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| | | | | | | Author: | Pokernut | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 11:09 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 61 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
Voted yes. I made pretty much the same suggestion in January of 2011:
http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=504932
Thor
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Before my time guys 
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| | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 11:25 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 75 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
This comes up every now and then, and I pointed out before that it should then
be phrased
" Buyer demanded customs fraud "
Orders are cancelled when an agreement is out of reach - e.g. no money, parts
missing. When a buyer asks you for something, it is at that point still a question.
Yes, I am aware that even though to me it is not altogether surprising to ask
for a lower number to be filled out on a form because otherwise there's like
a 90% chance for that parcel to get stolen, I am aware that to many Americans
it's like asking someone to kill your mother in law. Even so, it is at that
point still a question. "Buyer made me angry by asking something that offended
me" is, to me, not a professional reason to cancel a business transaction. But
when this buyer demands you to do something you will not do, then at that point
there's a dealbreaker and a reason to cancel the order.
I am also aware this will again trigger replies from people who like Bricklink
to have a behavioural gestapo feature that exposes people's conduct to an
immortal digital wall of shame that will literally surive the person himself,
but this is my opinion and I will not defend it again
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| | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 11:49 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 63 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | This comes up every now and then, and I pointed out before that it should then
be phrased
" Buyer demanded customs fraud "
|
I disagree. Asking someone to commit a crime is more than enough IMO. It puts
needless pressure and concern on a seller, increases the risk of PayPal claims
and other problems, and casts the ethics and trustworthiness of the buyer into
doubt. And how exactly do you differentiate between "asking" and "demanding"?
They are on the same spectrum and only differ by very subjective degrees.
Furthermore, asking this allows unscrupulous sellers to accept the invitation
and obtain an unfair advantage over other sellers who play by the rules and comply
with the law and BrickLink's Terms of Service.
And as Goshe added in the past: "Right on. There are some things that you can
ask for, like a discount or special packaging considerations. I don't see
any situation in which it be acceptable to ask someone to commit a crime."
| | Orders are cancelled when an agreement is out of reach - e.g. no money, parts
missing. When a buyer asks you for something, it is at that point still a question. ... But when this buyer demands you do something you will not do, then at that point there's a dealbreaker and a reason to cancel the order.
|
So then, to cancel an otherwise valid order, all a buyer has to do is "demand"
customs fraud?
| | I am also aware this will again trigger replies from people who like Bricklink
to have a behavioural gestapo feature that exposes people's conduct to an
immortal digital wall of shame that will literally surive the person himself,
but this is my opinion and I will not defend it again
|
Why is it so difficult to just be honest when completing these forms?
Ooh ooh... I know why! MONEY!!! Anything for MONEY!
Thor
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 16:24 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 56 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| | | | | I am also aware this will again trigger replies from people who like Bricklink
to have a behavioural gestapo feature that exposes people's conduct to an
immortal digital wall of shame that will literally surive the person himself,
but this is my opinion and I will not defend it again
|
Why is it so difficult to just be honest when completing these forms?
Ooh ooh... I know why! MONEY!!! Anything for MONEY!
Thor
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Yep. You do everything for money. We already established last time that your
motives for whipping up the 'discussion' were of monetary rather than
ethical nature. That is why I won't discuss this.
For the guy who always stirs people's underbellies about how unfair it is
that everyone goes ad hominem at him, this was surprisingly overtly ad hominem..
though you would of course again shy away from implicating of the sort.
I could write a bot for this..
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 16:31 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | | | | | I am also aware this will again trigger replies from people who like Bricklink
to have a behavioural gestapo feature that exposes people's conduct to an
immortal digital wall of shame that will literally surive the person himself,
but this is my opinion and I will not defend it again
|
Why is it so difficult to just be honest when completing these forms?
Ooh ooh... I know why! MONEY!!! Anything for MONEY!
Thor
|
| | For the guy who always stirs people's underbellies about how unfair it is
|
that everyone goes ad hominem at him, this was surprisingly overtly ad hominem..
though you would of course again shy away from implicating of the sort.
|
And calling people opposing you pro-"gestapo" is not ad hominem?
"I am also aware this will again trigger replies from people who like Bricklink
to have a behavioural gestapo feature that exposes people's conduct to
an
immortal digital wall of shame that will literally surive the person himself,
but this is my opinion and I will not defend it again."
Why not accept that people will disagree? There is no need to bring the "gestapo"
into this. Especially considering the history of that word and the rather unpleasant
and controversial images it raises..
Sigh...
Be honest and admit it. The SOLE reason to commit customs fraud is to save yourself
some money. Why do it otherwise?
Thor
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | legoman77 | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 16:55 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | | | | | I am also aware this will again trigger replies from people who like Bricklink
to have a behavioural gestapo feature that exposes people's conduct to an
immortal digital wall of shame that will literally surive the person himself,
but this is my opinion and I will not defend it again
|
Why is it so difficult to just be honest when completing these forms?
Ooh ooh... I know why! MONEY!!! Anything for MONEY!
Thor
|
| | For the guy who always stirs people's underbellies about how unfair it is
|
that everyone goes ad hominem at him, this was surprisingly overtly ad hominem..
though you would of course again shy away from implicating of the sort.
|
And calling people opposing you pro-"gestapo" is not ad hominem?
"I am also aware this will again trigger replies from people who like Bricklink
to have a behavioural gestapo feature that exposes people's conduct to
an
immortal digital wall of shame that will literally surive the person himself,
but this is my opinion and I will not defend it again."
Why not accept that people will disagree? There is no need to bring the "gestapo"
into this. Especially considering the history of that word and the rather unpleasant
and controversial images it raises..
Sigh...
Be honest and admit it. The SOLE reason to commit customs fraud is to save yourself
some money. Why do it otherwise?
Thor
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I know that you do not do this and you know that I do not do this. On this we
agree that it is wrong. It really did bother me and still does on my selling
on ebay that someone would ask me to commit a crime so something would be cheaper
for them. They need to talk to their own country officials because it is not
the US that imposes import duties.
John P
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 17:40 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, legoman77 writes:
| | They need to talk to their own country officials because it is not
the US that imposes import duties.
|
Obviously, they won't do that because they know what customs will say. It
would be like you and me asking the IRS if we can under-declare our income by
90% when we file our income tax returns and call the 10% we do declare as a "gift".
EVERY time this issue comes up somebody whines about "ad hominem attacks" and
tries to make this a US versus Europe thing. They do that to INTENTIONALLY derail
the discussion and heat things up to the point where discussing this issue almost
always causes the thread to be locked.
It is called customs FRAUD and LYING on customs forms for a reason. By their
very definition these words deal with honesty, or more precisely the lack thereof.
If you don't want your honesty questioned, don't ask for, promote or
make excuses for lying and committing customs fraud. Simple.
Thor
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 17:33 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | | | | | I am also aware this will again trigger replies from people who like Bricklink
to have a behavioural gestapo feature that exposes people's conduct to an
immortal digital wall of shame that will literally surive the person himself,
but this is my opinion and I will not defend it again
|
Why is it so difficult to just be honest when completing these forms?
Ooh ooh... I know why! MONEY!!! Anything for MONEY!
Thor
|
| | For the guy who always stirs people's underbellies about how unfair it is
|
that everyone goes ad hominem at him, this was surprisingly overtly ad hominem..
though you would of course again shy away from implicating of the sort.
|
And calling people opposing you pro-"gestapo" is not ad hominem?
"I am also aware this will again trigger replies from people who like Bricklink
to have a behavioural gestapo feature that exposes people's conduct to
an
immortal digital wall of shame that will literally surive the person himself,
but this is my opinion and I will not defend it again."
Why not accept that people will disagree? There is no need to bring the "gestapo"
into this. Especially considering the history of that word and the rather unpleasant
and controversial images it raises..
Sigh...
|
You came to mind, but I wasn't pointing a finger at you for all to see. I
am very much opposed to that point of view, so I was very much attacking that
point of view. If a person who holds that view feels attacked, well, logical,
but not really my fault. Yes, I was using some strong polemics (or exaggeration
if you will) but I really think basic human rights like privacy are often neglected
in regard to this topic so I really feel strongly about this and I think people
need to wake up. I agree it's unpleasant, but I find the idea of public shaming
even more unpleasant.
| | Be honest and admit it. The SOLE reason to commit customs fraud is to save yourself
some money. Why do it otherwise?
Thor
|
If I reflect on you posting these accusations it seems more like you're talking
to some sort of audience of readers, trying to stir up people's underbellies
and get something going, rather than talking to me directly. Why do I arrive
at this conclusion?
I, for a fact, know that your claim is incorrect. What effect does it
have on me? It leads me to conclude that you're likely to make incorrect
analyses. What effect might it have on other people? They will start viewing
me as a corrupt greedy person. 'Nevermind listening to him, he's greedy
and corrupt, listen to me instead.'
I see this again and again and it's why I quit having discussions with you.
This is my personal impression that I have after reading and posting in these
discussions. Typically in discussions you'd expect things like "ok, I understand
that point of view, but ..." "I haven't thought about that, but..." but in
your case it just seems like a constant demonstration and pushing of a particular
point of view not directed at the person in the dicusssion but at "the audience"
as if it's some sort of arena and it's a fight for who pushes his point
until everyone surrenders and the audience applauds and is convinced. Your ad
hominems seem a constant force just below the surface, just enough to put someone
in a bad light, not enough to make everyone conclude you're a bully. And
when they respond lacking your refined and subtle approach in making them, you
point the finger and 'win' the argument.
But anyway. If anyone could have an agenda with their point of view, it would
arguably be you, because if you succeed in depicting anyone who disagrees with
you as greedy people, people will write accurate numbers on these forms and that
would put your store in a better business position. What, on the other hand,
do I get when I argue for some more humanity and understanding for people
who ask this? Nothing, more "competition" at worst.
Ok, let's break down this competition argument once and for all. Say that
I would write €10 on every such form. People never ask me to do this. In 10 years
it happened like one time. How many people will really be like "oh I saw
that Teup wrote €10 on it on my previous order, Foster would never do that, better
place my next order at Teup". How much revenue will that really produce for me?
Returning buyers outside the EU make up (educated estimate) 1 to 3% of my orders.
How many of these are over the critical value? And how many of them would have
been influenced by what I wrote on the form? After a year of me writing lower
values on these forms, what would I have earned? A pizza probably.
But even besides all this. I now have a business besides selling Lego, I haven't
been very active at it anymore. Look at my feedback, 55 in a year. No, my sole
reason why this agitates me is simply a matter of humanity. I fully understand
that these people will try to ask this, and I just can't stand the injustice
of them being turned into villains, same as I can't stand downloaders being
compared to shoplifters. It has literally nothing to do with my own interest.
Believe it or not.
There, this post was very long, and at the same time both super off topic and
super fruitless. I guess I just wanted to try to make both you and other readers
realise this whole "custom fraud requesters are evil and everyone who defends
them is corrupt" discussion is just completely rotten and so judgemental it makes
me want to barf. That's just what I had to get off my chest. Agree or disagree
where you will, I don't really need to know. Enough time wasted..
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 17:59 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 55 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | Yes, I was using some strong polemics (or exaggeration
if you will) but I really think basic human rights like privacy are often neglected
in regard to this topic
|
You have no right of privacy to commit or ask others to commit a crime. It is
dishonest and completely understandable why those who do this want it kept quiet.
| | I agree it's unpleasant, but I find the idea of public shaming even more unpleasant.
|
Public shaming for criminal acts involving dishonesty is a long time-proven method
of deterring and dealing with those who commit such acts. Of course it is shameful.
It is supposed to be.
| |
| | Be honest and admit it. The SOLE reason to commit customs fraud is to save yourself
some money. Why do it otherwise?
Thor
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|
| | I, for a fact, know that your claim is incorrect.
|
So people who commit, promote or ask others to commit customs fraud do it for
the thrill of it? To be a rebel? There is no financial gain in it for them? That
does not sound the least bit credible. Customs fraud is a crime involving money.
An illegal means to prevent the government from being paid what it is rightly
owed. It is theft.
| |
I see this again and again and it's why I quit having discussions with you.
This is my personal impression that I have after reading and posting in these
discussions. Typically in discussions you'd expect things like "ok, I understand
that point of view, but ..." "I haven't thought about that, but..."
|
Sorry, but I don't agree with the idea that customs fraud is somehow justifiable.
In fact, I find that idea dangerous because it is precisely that kind of thinking
that made customs fraud so prevalent in the past.
| | but in
your case it just seems like a constant demonstration and pushing of a particular
point of view not directed at the person in the dicusssion but at "the audience"
as if it's some sort of arena and it's a fight for who pushes his point
until everyone surrenders and the audience applauds and is convinced. Your ad
hominems seem a constant force just below the surface, just enough to put someone
in a bad light, not enough to make everyone conclude you're a bully. And
when they respond lacking your refined and subtle approach in making them, you
point the finger and 'win' the argument.
|
Straw man argument. Please stay on point and stop trying to derail this discussion
by bringing up your personal observations about me. This is not about ME; it
is about customs fraud.
| | Ok, let's break down this competition argument once and for all. Say that
I would write €10 on every such form. People never ask me to do this. In 10 years
it happened like one time. How many people will really be like "oh I saw
that Teup wrote €10 on it on my previous order, Foster would never do that, better
place my next order at Teup". How much revenue will that really produce for me?
Returning buyers outside the EU make up (educated estimate) 1 to 3% of my orders.
How many of these are over the critical value? And how many of them would have
been influenced by what I wrote on the form? After a year of me writing lower
values on these forms, what would I have earned? A pizza probably.
|
Pure speculation and hogwash. But here is a real fact. Like other sellers, buyers
have actually told me that they will order elsewhere if I don't commit customs
fraud for them. These are buyers who places large orders for hundreds of dollars
per order and then want me to declare it as a $10 gift from a friend. Several
couple of hundred dollar orders adds up to be a lot of pizzas every year. And
I am just one seller. Your math is completely made up.
| |
There, this post was very long, and at the same time both super off topic and
super fruitless
|
Next time, drop the straw man arguments.
Thor
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | FigBits | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 18:42 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 55 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, fosterbengoshI wrote:
| | Like other sellers, buyers
have actually told me that they will order elsewhere if I don't commit customs
fraud for them. These are buyers who places large orders for hundreds of dollars
per order and then want me to declare it as a $10 gift from a friend. Several
couple of hundred dollar orders adds up to be a lot of pizzas every year. And
I am just one seller. Your math is completely made up.
|
How often does this happen? I can remember buyers asking for me to under-declare
MAYBE 5 or 6 times in all the time I have been selling on BrickLink. I glanced
through my last 250 orders. 47 of them were for over $100. Of these 250, 1 person
asked for a lower amount on the customs form.
--
Marc.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 19:43 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, FigBits writes:
| | In Suggestions, fosterbengoshI wrote:
| | Like other sellers, buyers
have actually told me that they will order elsewhere if I don't commit customs
fraud for them. These are buyers who places large orders for hundreds of dollars
per order and then want me to declare it as a $10 gift from a friend. Several
couple of hundred dollar orders adds up to be a lot of pizzas every year. And
I am just one seller. Your math is completely made up.
|
How often does this happen? I can remember buyers asking for me to under-declare
MAYBE 5 or 6 times in all the time I have been selling on BrickLink. I glanced
through my last 250 orders. 47 of them were for over $100. Of these 250, 1 person
asked for a lower amount on the customs form.
|
You are looking at this way too narrowly - from your own view as one seller.
On BrickLink as a whole, this happens quite a lot. You say it happened once in
your last 250 orders. Fine, let's use that as a benchmark. BrickLink has
3000 orders a day. So that means this *could* be happening 12 times every day
or almost 4400 times a year - more or less. I know... speculation. Just as it
would be speculation to say it happens only 5 or 6 times a day. One could equally
speculate it happens more than 12 times a day. The plain fact is that it *IS*
happening.
Thor
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | FigBits | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 20:46 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, FigBits writes:
| | In Suggestions, fosterbengoshI wrote:
| | Like other sellers, buyers
have actually told me that they will order elsewhere if I don't commit customs
fraud for them. These are buyers who places large orders for hundreds of dollars
per order and then want me to declare it as a $10 gift from a friend. Several
couple of hundred dollar orders adds up to be a lot of pizzas every year. And
I am just one seller. Your math is completely made up.
|
How often does this happen? I can remember buyers asking for me to under-declare
MAYBE 5 or 6 times in all the time I have been selling on BrickLink. I glanced
through my last 250 orders. 47 of them were for over $100. Of these 250, 1 person
asked for a lower amount on the customs form.
|
You are looking at this way too narrowly - from your own view as one seller.
|
As is everyone else. Others are saying that it is a problem for them as individual
sellers. If so, then the incidents that occur to one person must be significant.
Are they?
| | On BrickLink as a whole, this happens quite a lot. You say it happened once in
your last 250 orders. Fine, let's use that as a benchmark. BrickLink has
3000 orders a day. So that means this *could* be happening 12 times every day
or almost 4400 times a year - more or less. I know... speculation. Just as it
would be speculation to say it happens only 5 or 6 times a day. One could equally
speculate it happens more than 12 times a day. The plain fact is that it *IS*
happening.
Thor
|
Sure. But is it a *problem*? If something happens once out of every 250 orders,
and that event is absolutely terrible, then sure, I would agree that it's
a problem. Even if it's just bad (instead of terrible), at that frequency
it's still a problem.
But having someone ask for a different amount on a customs form is merely annoying.
Having something annoying happen twelve times a day on the entire site does not
seem to rise to the level of "problem". Heck, twelve annoying things happen in
THIS FORUM every single day!
The issue is easily dealt with. Reply "Sorry -- I can't" to the people
who request it. Or, don't reply at all. "Problem" solved.
Even if every buyer was able to magically read the minds of every seller and
determine which ones would do it and which ones wouldn't, the scenario we
are envisioning would result in, AT MOST, a 0.4% increase in sales for the people
willing to break the law to get a sale. That's literally nothing. It is not
a blip on the radar.
--
Marc.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 21:16 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, FigBits writes:
| | If so, then the incidents that occur to one person must be significant. Are they?
|
Yes they are. They are significant enough for many sellers to have repeatedly
complained about this many times over the years and to have made numerous suggestions
to deal with the problem. It may not be significant to you, but it is significant
to others who simply don't want to deal with buyers asking them to commit
a crime.
| | | | On BrickLink as a whole, this happens quite a lot. You say it happened once in
your last 250 orders. Fine, let's use that as a benchmark. BrickLink has
3000 orders a day. So that means this *could* be happening 12 times every day
or almost 4400 times a year - more or less. I know... speculation. Just as it
would be speculation to say it happens only 5 or 6 times a day. One could equally
speculate it happens more than 12 times a day. The plain fact is that it *IS*
happening.
Thor
|
Sure. But is it a *problem*? If something happens once out of every 250 orders,
and that event is absolutely terrible, then sure, I would agree that it's
a problem. Even if it's just bad (instead of terrible), at that frequency
it's still a problem.
But having someone ask for a different amount on a customs form is merely annoying.
|
It is much more than annoying; it is a crime. It puts needless pressure and worry
on a seller, increases the risk of PayPal claims and other problems, and casts
the ethics and trustworthiness of the buyer into doubt. Furthermore, turning
a blind eye to buyers asking this allows unscrupulous sellers to accept the invitation
and obtain an unfair advantage over other sellers who play by the rules and comply
with the law and BrickLink's Terms of Service.
| | The issue is easily dealt with. Reply "Sorry -- I can't" to the people
who request it. Or, don't reply at all. "Problem" solved.
|
Nope, that does not "deal with" the problem. Because sometimes it angers the
buyer and causes them to retaliate against the seller. Now the seller has to
worry about getting undeserved bad feedback or worse - a PayPal claim. It also
allows the buyer to shop around until he finds an unscrupulous seller that says
"yes". Doing so causes good sellers to lose sales. Clearly, ignoring the problem
or "Just Say No!" do not work.
| |
Even if every buyer was able to magically read the minds of every seller and
determine which ones would do it and which ones wouldn't, the scenario we
are envisioning would result in, AT MOST, a 0.4% increase in sales for the people
willing to break the law to get a sale. That's literally nothing. It is not
a blip on the radar.
|
This is pure speculation having no basis whatsoever. Buyers who find a seller
willing to commit customs fraud are more likely to place repeat and bigger orders
with that seller and to let other buyers know the seller will fudge the customs
forms for them. That is a BIG incentive for those sellers who do this. The increase
in sales is far more than 0.4%. I know this for a fact, because one of these
buyers told me this* and one of these sellers PM'd me to brag that his repeat
buyers who requested this accounted for 15% of his total sales. This has a double-whammy
effect. It unfairly gives orders to less scrupulous sellers AND takes away orders
from law-abiding sellers. And much much more than the 0.4% you pulled out of
thin air.
Thor
*The buyer who told me this placed several orders for increasing amounts when
I first started selling here. He then placed a fairly large order with me and
requested customs fraud, which I refused. He then sent me an email saying that
he would have to buy elsewhere if I did not agree to under-declare the value
of his orders. He was actually quite nice about it. He said he liked my shop,
prices and selection and wanted to keep buying from me every couple of months.
But he then said he could not do that if I did not "cooperate" and fudge the
customs forms for him. So, with just this one buyer, I lost out on thousands
of dollars worth of future orders. Apparently, he found another seller willing
to do this for him, even though that other seller had prices that were generally
higher than mine.
|
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | FigBits | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 21:48 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, FigBits writes:
| | If so, then the incidents that occur to one person must be significant. Are they?
|
Yes they are. They are significant enough for many sellers to have repeatedly
complained about this many times over the years and to have made numerous suggestions
to deal with the problem. It may not be significant to you, but it is significant
to others who simply don't want to deal with buyers asking them to commit
a crime.
|
How difficult is it to say no? Or if typing "no" is actually too much work, simply
ignore the request. Doing nothing is actually surprisingly easy.
| | | | | | On BrickLink as a whole, this happens quite a lot. You say it happened once in
your last 250 orders. Fine, let's use that as a benchmark. BrickLink has
3000 orders a day. So that means this *could* be happening 12 times every day
or almost 4400 times a year - more or less. I know... speculation. Just as it
would be speculation to say it happens only 5 or 6 times a day. One could equally
speculate it happens more than 12 times a day. The plain fact is that it *IS*
happening.
Thor
|
Sure. But is it a *problem*? If something happens once out of every 250 orders,
and that event is absolutely terrible, then sure, I would agree that it's
a problem. Even if it's just bad (instead of terrible), at that frequency
it's still a problem.
But having someone ask for a different amount on a customs form is merely annoying.
|
It is much more than annoying; it is a crime.
|
What is? Asking someone to write a different amount on the form is a crime? Or
actually doing it is a crime?
If someone asks you to do something illegal, you can simply not do it, or ignore
their message.
| | It puts needless pressure and worry on a seller
increases the risk of PayPal claims and other problems, and casts
the ethics and trustworthiness of the buyer into doubt. Furthermore, turning
a blind eye to buyers asking this allows unscrupulous sellers to accept the invitation
and obtain an unfair advantage over other sellers who play by the rules and comply
with the law and BrickLink's Terms of Service.
|
So if someone asks for it, but them on a blacklist and charge them a "needless
pressure and worry" fee.
IF the frequency of the issue is sufficient, then there is potentially a problem.
But that isn't established. The numbers that I have seen indicate that it
is essentially non-existent. Having a 0.4% advantage is nothing. Sellers who
are willing to break the law in order to gain an advantage can do much better
than that. It would be like going after the guy who eats a grape in the produce
aisle and ignoring the guy walking out the front door with a stolen canoe.
| | | | The issue is easily dealt with. Reply "Sorry -- I can't" to the people
who request it. Or, don't reply at all. "Problem" solved.
|
Nope, that does not "deal with" the problem. Because sometimes it angers the
buyer and causes them to retaliate against the seller. Now the seller has to
worry about getting undeserved bad feedback or worse - a PayPal claim.
|
Get delivery confirmation.
| | It also
allows the buyer to shop around until he finds an unscrupulous seller that says
"yes".
|
So? If a kid tries to get you to buy them some beer, and you say no, they're
just gonna ask someone else! So?
| | Doing so causes good sellers to lose sales.
|
It causes good sellers to lose one sale out of 250? I actually didn't lose
one sale out of those 5 or 6 that asked. But even if I had lost all of them ...
so? I also won't make twenty bucks off the kid who wants me to buy him beer.
Am I losing any sleep over that?
| | Clearly, ignoring the problem or "Just Say No!" do not work.
|
That isn't clear at all. It has worked perfectly up to now, as far as I can
see.
| | | | Even if every buyer was able to magically read the minds of every seller and
determine which ones would do it and which ones wouldn't, the scenario we
are envisioning would result in, AT MOST, a 0.4% increase in sales for the people
willing to break the law to get a sale. That's literally nothing. It is not
a blip on the radar.
|
This is pure speculation having no basis whatsoever.
|
No it isn't. It's based on the numbers I have seen. If you have different
numbers, then we can talk about those.
| | Buyers who find a seller
willing to commit customs fraud are more likely to place repeat and bigger orders
with that seller and to let other buyers know the seller will fudge the customs
forms for them. That is a BIG incentive for those sellers who do this. The increase
in sales is far more than 0.4%. I know this for a fact, because one of these
buyers told me this* and one of these sellers PM'd me to brag that his repeat
buyers who requested this accounted for 15% of his total sales. This has a double-whammy
effect. It unfairly gives orders to less scrupulous sellers AND takes away orders
from law-abiding sellers. And much much more than the 0.4% you pulled out of
thin air.
|
It isn't out of thin air. It is the 1/250 number that we discussed earlier
in this thread. 1/250 = 0.4%.
So, if someone bragged to you that he bought a kid beer once, and now he makes
15% of his income by selling beer to kids, would you say that they guy who manages
the parking lot needs to do something about it? That's what you're advocating
here.
| | *The buyer who told me this placed several orders for increasing amounts when
I first started selling here. He then placed a fairly large order with me and
requested customs fraud, which I refused. He then sent me an email saying that
he would have to buy elsewhere if I did not agree to under-declare the value
of his orders. He was actually quite nice about it. He said he liked my shop,
prices and selection and wanted to keep buying from me every couple of months.
But he then said he could not do that if I did not "cooperate" and fudge the
customs forms for him. So, with just this one buyer, I lost out on thousands
of dollars worth of future orders. Apparently, he found another seller willing
to do this for him, even though that other seller had prices that were generally
higher than mine.
|
So who did you report them to? The police, or the guy who manages the parking
lot?
Sellers who falsify customs forms will continue to do so "because BL and most
of this guy's buyers are not only easy victims, but suckers as well. All
they do is give the guy a virtual slap on the wrist and whine and moan. But nobody
does anything more."
--
Marc.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 22:06 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, FigBits writes:
| |
How difficult is it to say no?
|
Sellers should not have to say no.
| | The numbers that I have seen indicate that it is essentially non-existent. Having a 0.4% advantage is nothing.
|
This 0.4% number is completely made up by you and has no basis in reality. It
is based on your rough claim that you only encountered this personally in 1 out
of 250 orders and then assumes a number of serious fallacies, including ...
... that everyone else receives the same ratio as you do
... that this one order is the same average value as all your 249 orders (In
my experience, international orders are considerably larger on average than domestic
orders, and even larger among buyers who expect you to commit customs fraud).
... that buyers don't place more frequent and larger orders with sellers
who are known to commit customs fraud (they most certainly do)
| | | | Doing so causes good sellers to lose sales.
|
It causes good sellers to lose one sale out of 250?
|
Again, this number is completely fabricated by you out of thin air.
| | | | Clearly, ignoring the problem or "Just Say No!" do not work.
|
That isn't clear at all. It has worked perfectly up to now
|
Yes, so "perfectly" that numerous sellers continue to repeatedly complain about
this problem and make multiple suggestions to deal with it.
Thor
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | FigBits | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 22:24 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, FigBits writes:
| |
How difficult is it to say no?
|
Sellers should not have to say no.
| | The numbers that I have seen indicate that it is essentially non-existent. Having a 0.4% advantage is nothing.
|
This 0.4% number is completely made up by you and has no basis in reality. It
is based on your rough claim that you only encountered this personally in 1 out
of 250 orders and then assumes a number of serious fallacies, including ...
... that everyone else receives the same ratio as you do
... that this one order is the same average value as all your 249 orders (In
my experience, international orders are considerably larger on average than domestic
orders, and even larger among buyers who expect you to commit customs fraud).
... that buyers don't place more frequent and larger orders with sellers
who are known to commit customs fraud (they most certainly do)
|
It was the number that we discussed earlier in the thread. I don't see a
lot of sellers jumping in and saying that it's way off. So ... let's
open it up...
Sellers: How often do you get these requests? When you get them, how often do
the orders get cancelled? What is the size of those cancelled orders, compared
to your average?
This will give us an idea of how significant the issue is.
| | | | | | Doing so causes good sellers to lose sales.
|
It causes good sellers to lose one sale out of 250?
|
Again, this number is completely fabricated by you out of thin air.
|
Again, no, it isn't. It is the number that I calculated from the data I had
available.
| | | | | | Clearly, ignoring the problem or "Just Say No!" do not work.
|
That isn't clear at all. It has worked perfectly up to now
|
Yes, so "perfectly" that numerous sellers continue to repeatedly complain about
this problem and make multiple suggestions to deal with it.
Thor
|
So... if I look through the suggestions list, anything that I find that's
been mentioned more than once is therefore a significant problem?
We had dozens of people complaining about the owls in the BrickLink logo in the
upper left of your screen right now. That must mean that those owls are a terrible
terrible problem that has to be dealt with by the authorities immediately!
Of course not. Just because multiple people have mentioned an issue doesn't
mean that it's a significant problem. It's all in the numbers. So...
I await an influx of numbers from the multitudes of people who feel that this
customs form issue has to be solved by BrickLink.
--
Marc.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 23:00 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 50 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, FigBits writes:
| |
It was the number that we discussed earlier in the thread.
|
Yes, the same number I said was made up back then. It was made up then, it is
still made up. Repeating it does not make it any less made up and meaningless.
| | I don't see a lot of sellers jumping in and saying that it's way off. So ... let's
open it up...
|
I don't see a lot of sellers jumping in to say it is accurate.
| |
Sellers: How often do you get these requests? When you get them, how often do
the orders get cancelled? What is the size of those cancelled orders, compared
to your average?
|
Add these questions too...
Sellers, do you think you lose orders because you refuse to commit customs fraud?
Is there any way possible for you to know how many orders you lose and the dollar
amounts of those orders?
Is it reasonable to believe buyers who request customs fraud are international
buyers who generally place larger orders than average?
Do you think those buyers would place more and/or larger orders with you if you
agreed to commit customs fraud?
Do you think it is fair for other sellers to receive orders you might have received
simply because you choose to respect the law and they don't?
Does it bother you to have to say no when asked to commit a crime or do something
dishonest?
If a buyer is willing to lie to and cheat their own government, do you think
they may also lie to and cheat you?
Do you worry about getting non-positive feedback if you refuse or ignore these
requests, or cancel the order?
Do you worry these buyers might file a bogus PayPal claim if you refuse or ignore
their request to lie on the customs fraud?
Do you want want BrickLink to do or say something about customs fraud, or to
add customs fraud as a reason to cancel orders AND block or remove non-positive
feedback?
| |
This will give us an idea of how significant the issue is.
| | | | | | Doing so causes good sellers to lose sales.
|
It causes good sellers to lose one sale out of 250?
|
Again, this number is completely fabricated by you out of thin air.
|
Again, no, it isn't. It is the number that I calculated from the data I had
available.
|
It is the number you created out of very limited data which you have no idea
whether it is representative of other sellers. And it is a number that assumes
the one order is the same size and amount as the average of the 249 other orders.
It is a number which also ignores the reality that international orders are generally
larger than domestic orders and the reality that buyers who believe their seller
will commit customs fraud place larger and more frequent orders with such sellers.
In other words, it is a number that is totally arbitrary, unrelated to reality
and completely meaningless.
| |
| | | | | | Clearly, ignoring the problem or "Just Say No!" do not work.
|
That isn't clear at all. It has worked perfectly up to now
|
Yes, so "perfectly" that numerous sellers continue to repeatedly complain about
this problem and make multiple suggestions to deal with it.
Thor
|
So... if I look through the suggestions list, anything that I find that's
been mentioned more than once is therefore a significant problem?
|
There you go with another one of you "In other words..." No Marc, that is NOT
what I said. Please don't try to distort what I say by putting it "in other
words".
| | We had dozens of people complaining about the owls in the BrickLink logo in the
upper left of your screen right now. That must mean that those owls are a terrible
terrible problem that has to be dealt with by the authorities immediately!
|
Never heard of that one. Did you make this one up too?
| |
Of course not. Just because multiple people have mentioned an issue doesn't
mean that it's a significant problem.
|
They have not just "mentioned" the matter, they have repeatedly complained about
it, expressed frustration having to deal with it, posted a variety of suggestions
and implored BrickLink to do something about what they themselves have consistently
called a problem.
Marc, use some reason please. Your argument is frivolous. Using your "logic"
(actually, lack thereof), one could make the same argument that "because multiple
people mention new scam sellers doesn't mean that it is a significant problem".
Thor
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Captain_Q | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 20:51 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, FigBits writes:
| | In Suggestions, fosterbengoshI wrote:
| | Like other sellers, buyers
have actually told me that they will order elsewhere if I don't commit customs
fraud for them. These are buyers who places large orders for hundreds of dollars
per order and then want me to declare it as a $10 gift from a friend. Several
couple of hundred dollar orders adds up to be a lot of pizzas every year. And
I am just one seller. Your math is completely made up.
|
How often does this happen? I can remember buyers asking for me to under-declare
MAYBE 5 or 6 times in all the time I have been selling on BrickLink. I glanced
through my last 250 orders. 47 of them were for over $100. Of these 250, 1 person
asked for a lower amount on the customs form.
--
Marc.
|
I use to have this happen to me on several different occasions. The buyer would
request that I declare a significantly lesser value then what they wished to
order and also have me claim it was a gift and state on the custom forms "old
used plastic toys" instead of lego. I refused as I wish to not get in trouble
over such matters with the authorities. After the same request happened several
more times, I noticed a pattern and the pattern was the requests came from the
same handful of countries.
My solution, I no longer ship to these countries as well I made it clear in
my ToS that I will not lie on customs forms. It proved to be good solution as
I have not had a request to lie on customs since December of 2014 and for the
last 800 or so orders I have received.
I ship to most countries, and I use to ship to all countries. Until too many
customers representative of their nation bring problems that give cause to revoke
shipping privileges.
Another problem that became resolved, customers from those same countries would
request shipping quotes for large orders and then rarely would follow through.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | sarbaek | | Posted: | Oct 27, 2015 02:56 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 50 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| |
Public shaming for criminal acts involving dishonesty is a long time-proven method
of deterring and dealing with those who commit such acts. Of course it is shameful.
It is supposed to be.
|
This is actually illegal in some countries. Recently we had a case of a shop
owner in Denmark who posted video feeds from his store showing 4 people stealing
stuff, in order to get them to pay for the goods or return them. This can potentially
get him 10 months of jail time. While I do not agree with jail time for this
individual, I do agree that public shaming is disdainful, since you basically
name yourself judge, jury and executioner.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | legoman77 | | Posted: | Oct 27, 2015 09:25 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 47 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, sarbaek writes:
| | In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| |
Public shaming for criminal acts involving dishonesty is a long time-proven method
of deterring and dealing with those who commit such acts. Of course it is shameful.
It is supposed to be.
|
This is actually illegal in some countries. Recently we had a case of a shop
owner in Denmark who posted video feeds from his store showing 4 people stealing
stuff, in order to get them to pay for the goods or return them. This can potentially
get him 10 months of jail time. While I do not agree with jail time for this
individual, I do agree that public shaming is disdainful, since you basically
name yourself judge, jury and executioner.
|
John P
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 27, 2015 09:56 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, sarbaek writes:
| | In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| |
Public shaming for criminal acts involving dishonesty is a long time-proven method
of deterring and dealing with those who commit such acts. Of course it is shameful.
It is supposed to be.
|
This is actually illegal in some countries. Recently we had a case of a shop
owner in Denmark who posted video feeds from his store showing 4 people stealing
stuff, in order to get them to pay for the goods or return them. This can potentially
get him 10 months of jail time. While I do not agree with jail time for this
individual, I do agree that public shaming is disdainful, since you basically
name yourself judge, jury and executioner.
|
That is strange. Because a simple Google search will find a bunch of videos from
Denmark showing people merely suspected of a crime. These videos are posted not
only by private citizens and businesses, but by the police as well. Here is one
of my favorites:
http://www.snotr.com/video/12023/How_we_deal_with_thieves_in_Denmark
This video is actually kind of funny. The thief and victim are so nice to each
other. If this were in the USA and the victim had confronted his thief in this
manner, things would most likely have been a lot less friendly. Probably closer
to one of the wilder episodes of Jerry Springer or Cheaters.
BTW, do you have a link to the story you referred to? I could not find it on
Google.
Thor
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | sarbaek | | Posted: | Oct 29, 2015 09:10 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, sarbaek writes:
| | In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| |
Public shaming for criminal acts involving dishonesty is a long time-proven method
of deterring and dealing with those who commit such acts. Of course it is shameful.
It is supposed to be.
|
This is actually illegal in some countries. Recently we had a case of a shop
owner in Denmark who posted video feeds from his store showing 4 people stealing
stuff, in order to get them to pay for the goods or return them. This can potentially
get him 10 months of jail time. While I do not agree with jail time for this
individual, I do agree that public shaming is disdainful, since you basically
name yourself judge, jury and executioner.
|
That is strange. Because a simple Google search will find a bunch of videos from
Denmark showing people merely suspected of a crime. These videos are posted not
only by private citizens and businesses, but by the police as well. Here is one
of my favorites:
http://www.snotr.com/video/12023/How_we_deal_with_thieves_in_Denmark
This video is actually kind of funny. The thief and victim are so nice to each
other. If this were in the USA and the victim had confronted his thief in this
manner, things would most likely have been a lot less friendly. Probably closer
to one of the wilder episodes of Jerry Springer or Cheaters.
BTW, do you have a link to the story you referred to? I could not find it on
Google.
Thor
|
Late reply, sorry.
Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's not happening. This is
the reference for my example, it's in danish, but hopefully google translate
can be of assistance: http://finans.dk/live/erhverv/ECE8129240/Butiksejer-offentliggjorde-billeder-af-butikstyve-Nu-er-han-politianmeldt/?ctxref=ext
Best regards,
Lars
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Oct 27, 2015 10:58 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| I am not here to defend incorrectly filling out forms to bypass customs or prevent
parcels from being stolen, I am only here to defend the innocence of people who
simply ask a question without having commited anything. It really angers
me how some people are so short-fused that simply raising the question will immediately
lead to cancellation and shaming. Try living in some banana republic where parcels
get stolen all the time. Try being 18 and enthusiastic about Lego and not having
the pocket money to deal with the customs. Again, not talking about justifying
but turning such people into villains is extremely mean in my opinion. The answer
is so, so simple... if you don't want to do it just say no.
Get over getting offended and stay a professional. Personally it offends me if
people ask for a lower price than what other customers have to pay. Will I cancel
their order and post in the forum about adding a "buyer ASKED for lower price"
cancellation option? Of course not. I get over myself and simply educate the
customer that I don't do this because I consider it unfair. There is a "buyer
DEMANDED lower price" option, because when no agreement can be reached, that
is the point the deal breaks. The proposed option should follow the same reasoning
and be called "buyer DEMANDED customs fraud".
Stop vilifying these people. Sure, you could argue that a seller should educate
him about laws before setting up a business, but expecting this from a completely
random citizen to the point that they face immediate shaming upon demonstrating
their ignorance is a really judgemental flavour of professional deformation.
In Suggestions, sarbaek writes:
| | In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| |
Public shaming for criminal acts involving dishonesty is a long time-proven method
of deterring and dealing with those who commit such acts. Of course it is shameful.
It is supposed to be.
|
|
Decapitation has proven to be even more effective 
| |
This is actually illegal in some countries. Recently we had a case of a shop
owner in Denmark who posted video feeds from his store showing 4 people stealing
stuff, in order to get them to pay for the goods or return them. This can potentially
get him 10 months of jail time. While I do not agree with jail time for this
individual, I do agree that public shaming is disdainful, since you basically
name yourself judge, jury and executioner.
|
Yes, that is super illegal here and basically it's what defines a lawful
state in my opinion. Only officials with a warrant are allowed to e.g. breach
rights like privacy IF there is officially enough reason for it and shaming is
NEVER part of any penalty or punishment. Not since
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | qwertyboy | | Posted: | Oct 27, 2015 11:18 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | | | This is actually illegal in some countries. Recently we had a case of a shop
owner in Denmark who posted video feeds from his store showing 4 people stealing
stuff, in order to get them to pay for the goods or return them. This can potentially
get him 10 months of jail time. While I do not agree with jail time for this
individual, I do agree that public shaming is disdainful, since you basically
name yourself judge, jury and executioner.
|
|
| | Yes, that is super illegal here and basically it's what defines a lawful
state in my opinion. Only officials with a warrant are allowed to e.g. breach
rights like privacy IF there is officially enough reason for it and shaming is
NEVER part of any penalty or punishment.
|
True enough. When I first watched news shows in the US and Canada (before I emigrated
from the Netherlands, this was in early '90s), I was amazed at the level
of public shaming that went on. People who were suspected of a crime were put
on TV, with their full name under their picture. Even people convicted of crimes
in the Netherlands don't get that treatment. If they were shown, there was
always some level of obscuring the identity (yes, sometimes with a laughable
little black bar across the eyes, but still).
Niek.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 27, 2015 12:03 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I am not here to defend incorrectly filling out forms to bypass customs or prevent
parcels from being stolen, I am only here to defend the innocence of people who
simply ask a question without having commited anything.
|
Asking someone to commit a crime is the first step towards doing that crime.
That combined with the element of intimidation and fear of retaliatory feedback
and/or a PayPal claim and/or loss of the order if you say no does not make it
a "simple question".
| | It really angers me how some people are so short-fused
|
LOL. Do you see the irony in that statement?
| | that simply raising the question will immediately lead to cancellation and shaming.
|
Who will be publicly shamed if this suggestion is implemented? All this and other
similar suggestions ask for is for customs fraud to be listed as a specific reason
for order cancellation and possibly blocking or removing feedback from such buyers.
No one is suggesting that the names of these buyers be publicly posted on the
web.
| | Try living in some banana republic where parcels get stolen all the time.
|
Boo hoo hoo! That isn't a seller's problem. Living in a third world country
is no excuse for being dishonest or requesting that someone commit a crime for
you. Does living in a third world country justify what the Nigerian scammers
are doing? We aren't talking about necessities for living. We are talking
about a toy. A total luxury for people living in these third world countries.
If they can afford to buy such luxuries they can afford to pay whatever taxes
may be due on such luxuries.
| | Try being 18 and enthusiastic about Lego and not having the pocket money to deal with the customs.
|
Again, that is no excuse for being dishonest or asking someone else to do something
illegal for you. And if you don't have the pocket money to pay the taxes
everyone else has to pay then you should not be buying the product. Again, we
are not talking about food, water, clothing, shelter or medical care. We are
talking about a toy - a luxury.
| | The answer is so, so simple... if you don't want to do it just say no.
|
And as I and others have repeatedly shown, "just say no" does not work. The question
itself is intimidating to many sellers and often includes implied threats of
retaliation if you refuse. The question itself is dishonest. The question is
the first step in the commission of acts prohibited by law and the BrickLink
Terms of Service. And just saying no will make the buyer go somewhere else until
he finds someone less scrupulous who will say yes. Allowing the question to
be asked in the first place creates a selling environment that has needless intimidation,
potential problems, invites illegal conduct, and produces unfairness to law-abiding
sellers.
| |
Get over getting offended and stay a professional.
|
This is not about being offended. It is about keeping the selling environment
here clean, safe and fair for everyone. THAT is what professionals do.
| | Personally it offends me if
people ask for a lower price than what other customers have to pay.
|
That question does not ask you to commit a crime. BIG difference.
| | Stop vilifying these people.
|
Stop making excuses for these people. What they are asking is wrong. They are
asking others to commit a crime or be dishonest for them. There is no excuse
for that. And really, what is being "vilified" here is not so much the people;
but the acts. Thus, these suggestions focus on the ACTS, not the people.
| |
In Suggestions, sarbaek writes:
| | In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| |
Public shaming for criminal acts involving dishonesty is a long time-proven method
of deterring and dealing with those who commit such acts. Of course it is shameful.
It is supposed to be.
|
|
Decapitation has proven to be even more effective
|
Turning the other cheek, making excuses for these people, and pretending the
problem does not exist has been proven to have ZERO effectiveness in deterring
this behavior. On the contrary, they ENCOURAGE such behavior.
| |
| |
This is actually illegal in some countries. Recently we had a case of a shop
owner in Denmark who posted video feeds from his store showing 4 people stealing
stuff, in order to get them to pay for the goods or return them. This can potentially
get him 10 months of jail time. While I do not agree with jail time for this
individual, I do agree that public shaming is disdainful, since you basically
name yourself judge, jury and executioner.
|
Yes, that is super illegal here and basically it's what defines a lawful
state in my opinion. Only officials with a warrant are allowed to e.g. breach
rights like privacy IF there is officially enough reason for it
|
Again, no one is proposing to post the names and pictures of these buyers on
the web or to walk them down the middle of Main Street chained together. The
ONLY thing this and similar suggestions ask for is that BL list customs fraud
as a specific reason for canceling orders and possibly being able to remove or
block feedback from such buyers. THAT'S ALL. Everything else is a red herring
straw man argument INTENDED to take this discussion off track.
Thor
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | Pokernut | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 12:11 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
This comes up every now and then, and I pointed out before that it should then
be phrased
" Buyer demanded customs fraud "
Orders are cancelled when an agreement is out of reach - e.g. no money, parts
missing. When a buyer asks you for something, it is at that point still a question.
Yes, I am aware that even though to me it is not altogether surprising to ask
for a lower number to be filled out on a form because otherwise there's like
a 90% chance for that parcel to get stolen, I am aware that to many Americans
it's like asking someone to kill your mother in law. Even so, it is at that
point still a question. "Buyer made me angry by asking something that offended
me" is, to me, not a professional reason to cancel a business transaction. But
when this buyer demands you to do something you will not do, then at that point
there's a dealbreaker and a reason to cancel the order.
I am also aware this will again trigger replies from people who like Bricklink
to have a behavioural gestapo feature that exposes people's conduct to an
immortal digital wall of shame that will literally surive the person himself,
but this is my opinion and I will not defend it again
|
I run my business. No one else does. I run it as I see fit. If someone asks me
to do something that flies in the face of my business ethics I have every right
to refuse to deal with said person. Therefore I should have the right to summarily
cancel any order where customs fraud is requested. Someone who asks me for that
sort of treatment is, in my opinion, more likely to file false claims against
me or PayPal and it is not worth the hassle and effort involved.
I should also be able to take this correct ( IMO) action without having my reputation
smeared by a poor feedback. ( personally I believe you shouldn't be allowed
feedback if no transaction took place.)
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | George_Lucy | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 12:13 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 50 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| So a buyer buys from you 15 things and you don't have them all. Instead
of emailing the buyer and risk bad feedback you just claim he asked for customs
fraud. See where this is going?
In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
This comes up every now and then, and I pointed out before that it should then
be phrased
" Buyer demanded customs fraud "
Orders are cancelled when an agreement is out of reach - e.g. no money, parts
missing. When a buyer asks you for something, it is at that point still a question.
Yes, I am aware that even though to me it is not altogether surprising to ask
for a lower number to be filled out on a form because otherwise there's like
a 90% chance for that parcel to get stolen, I am aware that to many Americans
it's like asking someone to kill your mother in law. Even so, it is at that
point still a question. "Buyer made me angry by asking something that offended
me" is, to me, not a professional reason to cancel a business transaction. But
when this buyer demands you to do something you will not do, then at that point
there's a dealbreaker and a reason to cancel the order.
I am also aware this will again trigger replies from people who like Bricklink
to have a behavioural gestapo feature that exposes people's conduct to an
immortal digital wall of shame that will literally surive the person himself,
but this is my opinion and I will not defend it again
|
I run my business. No one else does. I run it as I see fit. If someone asks me
to do something that flies in the face of my business ethics I have every right
to refuse to deal with said person. Therefore I should have the right to summarily
cancel any order where customs fraud is requested. Someone who asks me for that
sort of treatment is, in my opinion, more likely to file false claims against
me or PayPal and it is not worth the hassle and effort involved.
I should also be able to take this correct ( IMO) action without having my reputation
smeared by a poor feedback. ( personally I believe you shouldn't be allowed
feedback if no transaction took place.)
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 12:20 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 56 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, George_Lucy writes:
| | So a buyer buys from you 15 things and you don't have them all. Instead
of emailing the buyer and risk bad feedback you just claim he asked for customs
fraud. See where this is going?
|
So because someone could lie or abuse this feature, we should not have it? That
could be said for ANY feature. In fact, sellers can already lie and abuse the
OCR, NPB and feedback systems. Should we eliminate all those features? Should
we also close down BrickLink because some sellers or buyers may lie and scam
others? See where this is going?
Thor
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | George_Lucy | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 12:24 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 52 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| The NPB and NSS seem to work fine and are used for the purpose they serve.
You can prove shipping to remove the NSS you can prove payment to remove the
NPB. I can just make up an email that was sent to me that they asked for customs
fraud. That's where it's going.
In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, George_Lucy writes:
| | So a buyer buys from you 15 things and you don't have them all. Instead
of emailing the buyer and risk bad feedback you just claim he asked for customs
fraud. See where this is going?
|
So because someone could lie or abuse this feature, we should not have it? That
could be said for ANY feature. In fact, sellers can already lie and abuse the
OCR, NPB and feedback systems. Should we eliminate all those features? Should
we also close down BrickLink because some sellers or buyers may lie and scam
others? See where this is going?
Thor
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 12:28 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, George_Lucy writes:
| | I can just make up an email that was sent to me that they asked for customs fraud.
|
You could, if you were dishonest. So what? Does the mere possibility that someone
might do something dishonest mean we should not have a feature that could otherwise
be quite helpful and valuable to many people? By that same reasoning, since someone
could use BrickLink to lie and cheat others, should BrickLink just close down?
Thor
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | legoman77 | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 15:55 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, George_Lucy writes:
| | The NPB and NSS seem to work fine and are used for the purpose they serve.
You can prove shipping to remove the NSS you can prove payment to remove the
NPB. I can just make up an email that was sent to me that they asked for customs
fraud. That's where it's going.
|
Every request for customs fraud went through BL's contact member. I suppose
if a seller complains admins could look at the email through BL.
John P
| |
In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, George_Lucy writes:
| | So a buyer buys from you 15 things and you don't have them all. Instead
of emailing the buyer and risk bad feedback you just claim he asked for customs
fraud. See where this is going?
|
So because someone could lie or abuse this feature, we should not have it? That
could be said for ANY feature. In fact, sellers can already lie and abuse the
OCR, NPB and feedback systems. Should we eliminate all those features? Should
we also close down BrickLink because some sellers or buyers may lie and scam
others? See where this is going?
Thor
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | George_Lucy | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 16:08 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 56 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| I agree that would be the only way it would work. If not someone could just make
up an email and claim that is the reason why they are canceling the order. I
just think this is one headache BL does not want on their plate.
In Suggestions, legoman77 writes:
| | In Suggestions, George_Lucy writes:
| | The NPB and NSS seem to work fine and are used for the purpose they serve.
You can prove shipping to remove the NSS you can prove payment to remove the
NPB. I can just make up an email that was sent to me that they asked for customs
fraud. That's where it's going.
|
Every request for customs fraud went through BL's contact member. I suppose
if a seller complains admins could look at the email through BL.
John P
| |
In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, George_Lucy writes:
| | So a buyer buys from you 15 things and you don't have them all. Instead
of emailing the buyer and risk bad feedback you just claim he asked for customs
fraud. See where this is going?
|
So because someone could lie or abuse this feature, we should not have it? That
could be said for ANY feature. In fact, sellers can already lie and abuse the
OCR, NPB and feedback systems. Should we eliminate all those features? Should
we also close down BrickLink because some sellers or buyers may lie and scam
others? See where this is going?
Thor
|
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | legoman77 | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 16:52 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, George_Lucy writes:
| | I agree that would be the only way it would work. If not someone could just make
up an email and claim that is the reason why they are canceling the order. I
just think this is one headache BL does not want on their plate.
|
That is what bothers me. BL has no problem letting the sellers handle this,
adding to their selling burden. Then there are those that do it and they have
an unfair advantage over the honest sellers. That just seems wrong.
John P
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | FigBits | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 20:02 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, legoman77 writes:
| | In Suggestions, George_Lucy writes:
| | I agree that would be the only way it would work. If not someone could just make
up an email and claim that is the reason why they are canceling the order. I
just think this is one headache BL does not want on their plate.
|
That is what bothers me. BL has no problem letting the sellers handle this,
adding to their selling burden. Then there are those that do it and they have
an unfair advantage over the honest sellers. That just seems wrong.
John P
|
How is that any different than other ways that sellers use unethical means to
unfairly increase their business?
Stores that acquire their inventory illegally have an unfair advantage over other
businesses. Should BL intervene? Businesses that don't pay their fair taxes,
or under-pay their employees, or etc etc etc
--
Marc.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 20:50 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, FigBits writes:
| | In Suggestions, legoman77 writes:
| | In Suggestions, George_Lucy writes:
| | I agree that would be the only way it would work. If not someone could just make
up an email and claim that is the reason why they are canceling the order. I
just think this is one headache BL does not want on their plate.
|
That is what bothers me. BL has no problem letting the sellers handle this,
adding to their selling burden. Then there are those that do it and they have
an unfair advantage over the honest sellers. That just seems wrong.
John P
|
How is that any different than other ways that sellers use unethical means to
unfairly increase their business?
Stores that acquire their inventory illegally have an unfair advantage over other
businesses. Should BL intervene? Businesses that don't pay their fair taxes,
or under-pay their employees, or etc etc etc
|
These they do on their own. They do not involve asking another member to commit
a crime with them involving a specific BrickLink order.
Furthermore, if BrickLink knows a store is selling stolen goods, they should
most certainly intervene by closing that store. Knowingly allowing the sale of
stolen goods on here could create a lot of problems for BrickLink.
It is enough if BrickLink takes action to minimize KNOWN crimes from being committed
on or through BrickLink. BrickLink does not have to stop any and all crimes,
particularly unknown ones.
Thor
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 12:24 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, George_Lucy writes:
| | So a buyer buys from you 15 things and you don't have them all. Instead
of emailing the buyer and risk bad feedback you just claim he asked for customs
fraud. See where this is going?
|
BTW (sorry for the second reply) but I forgot to add that my suggestion in this
regard would at least require the seller to prove the buyer made such a request.
Either in the order comments, via a BL message or via email. I don't think
anyone is suggesting that BL just take the seller's word for it.
Thor
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Pokernut | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 15:06 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, George_Lucy writes:
| | So a buyer buys from you 15 things and you don't have them all. Instead
of emailing the buyer and risk bad feedback you just claim he asked for customs
fraud. See where this is going?
|
Yes I do, but I could also throw my ethics into the wind, ship the stuff I do
have in stock and just refund the difference without telling the buyer beforehand.
The buyer would have to request the fraud, by mail or message attached to order,
for me to refuse.
| |
In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
This comes up every now and then, and I pointed out before that it should then
be phrased
" Buyer demanded customs fraud "
Orders are cancelled when an agreement is out of reach - e.g. no money, parts
missing. When a buyer asks you for something, it is at that point still a question.
Yes, I am aware that even though to me it is not altogether surprising to ask
for a lower number to be filled out on a form because otherwise there's like
a 90% chance for that parcel to get stolen, I am aware that to many Americans
it's like asking someone to kill your mother in law. Even so, it is at that
point still a question. "Buyer made me angry by asking something that offended
me" is, to me, not a professional reason to cancel a business transaction. But
when this buyer demands you to do something you will not do, then at that point
there's a dealbreaker and a reason to cancel the order.
I am also aware this will again trigger replies from people who like Bricklink
to have a behavioural gestapo feature that exposes people's conduct to an
immortal digital wall of shame that will literally surive the person himself,
but this is my opinion and I will not defend it again
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I run my business. No one else does. I run it as I see fit. If someone asks me
to do something that flies in the face of my business ethics I have every right
to refuse to deal with said person. Therefore I should have the right to summarily
cancel any order where customs fraud is requested. Someone who asks me for that
sort of treatment is, in my opinion, more likely to file false claims against
me or PayPal and it is not worth the hassle and effort involved.
I should also be able to take this correct ( IMO) action without having my reputation
smeared by a poor feedback. ( personally I believe you shouldn't be allowed
feedback if no transaction took place.)
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| | | | | Author: | Pher | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 13:49 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 52 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
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http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=916643
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| | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 17:27 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
While I understand your motivation in this suggestion, and the howls of righteous
indignation (from both sides of the aisle), there is a solution to the problem.
The seller puts on their Terms/Policies page that they do not make fraudulent
entries on customs paperwork. If the buyer requests/demands such treatment, then
the order can be canceled under the "Buyer did not comply with store policies"
choice, and more detail can be added in the free-form box. While BL does not
take an active position on this subject, I don't see how they could complain
about that procedure.
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| | | | | | | Author: | Pokernut | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 20:01 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
| | The seller puts on their Terms/Policies page that they do not make fraudulent
entries on customs paperwork. If the buyer requests/demands such treatment, then
the order can be canceled under the "Buyer did not comply with store policies"
choice, and more detail can be added in the free-form box. While BL does not
take an active position on this subject, I don't see how they could complain
about that procedure.
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Only thing with that is most buyers don't read the store terms, as highlighted
in this forum countless times.
Then the buyer gets revenge....
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 20:57 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
| | The seller puts on their Terms/Policies page that they do not make fraudulent
entries on customs paperwork. If the buyer requests/demands such treatment, then
the order can be canceled under the "Buyer did not comply with store policies"
choice, and more detail can be added in the free-form box. While BL does not
take an active position on this subject, I don't see how they could complain
about that procedure.
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Only thing with that is most buyers don't read the store terms, as highlighted
in this forum countless times.
Then the buyer gets revenge....
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If by revenge, you mean that the buyer leaves negative FB, I think you're
on solid ground to ask for removal. Your store terms/policies indicate that you
won't do it. Beyond that, we must be arguing about straw-men.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 21:28 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
| | In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
| | The seller puts on their Terms/Policies page that they do not make fraudulent
entries on customs paperwork. If the buyer requests/demands such treatment, then
the order can be canceled under the "Buyer did not comply with store policies"
choice, and more detail can be added in the free-form box. While BL does not
take an active position on this subject, I don't see how they could complain
about that procedure.
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Only thing with that is most buyers don't read the store terms, as highlighted
in this forum countless times.
Then the buyer gets revenge....
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If by revenge, you mean that the buyer leaves negative FB, I think you're
on solid ground to ask for removal. Your store terms/policies indicate that you
won't do it. Beyond that, we must be arguing about straw-men.
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That is not what the feedback removal rules say. See:
http://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=14
Those rules list six reasons you can request that feedback you received be removed.
It further states that these six reasons "are currently the only valid
reasons for which you can request feedback you received to be removed".
In addition to potential feedback revenge, sellers also have to deal with the
increased risk of PayPal claims for INR and SNAD. I know sellers who have been
hit with PayPal claims after refusing or ignoring these requests. I strongly
suspect this may be the reason for at least one PayPal claim filed against me.
And I have been threatened with PayPal claims twice for refusing these demands
and screams for reimbursement of customs duties paid. Which is quite stupid,
because their emails admitted receiving the order. They were just pissed I did
not commit a crime for them.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Oct 26, 2015 21:45 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
| | In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | In Suggestions, cosmicray writes:
| | The seller puts on their Terms/Policies page that they do not make fraudulent
entries on customs paperwork. If the buyer requests/demands such treatment, then
the order can be canceled under the "Buyer did not comply with store policies"
choice, and more detail can be added in the free-form box. While BL does not
take an active position on this subject, I don't see how they could complain
about that procedure.
|
Only thing with that is most buyers don't read the store terms, as highlighted
in this forum countless times.
Then the buyer gets revenge....
|
If by revenge, you mean that the buyer leaves negative FB, I think you're
on solid ground to ask for removal. Your store terms/policies indicate that you
won't do it. Beyond that, we must be arguing about straw-men.
|
That is not what the feedback removal rules say. See:
http://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=14
Those rules list six reasons you can request that feedback you received be removed.
It further states that these six reasons "are currently the only valid
reasons for which you can request feedback you received to be removed".
In addition to potential feedback revenge, sellers also have to deal with the
increased risk of PayPal claims for INR and SNAD. I know sellers who have been
hit with PayPal claims after refusing or ignoring these requests. I strongly
suspect this may be the reason for at least one PayPal claim filed against me.
And I have been threatened with PayPal claims twice for refusing these demands
and screams for reimbursement of customs duties paid. Which is quite stupid,
because their emails admitted receiving the order. They were just pissed I did
not commit a crime for them.
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I think you misread what I was saying. I wasn't talking about sending the
order out, I was saying to refuse the order (and refund any payment that arrives)
when a buyer tries to rewrite the sellers policy on customs forms. If they payment
is refunded, there is no INR or SNAD claim to be filed.
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| | | | | Author: | JediRob | | Posted: | Oct 27, 2015 04:41 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 55 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
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* Oh No!, Not Again! *
Perhaps a BL FAQ of the things that have been dead horse whipped, their lack
of resolution, some more dead horse whipping.
I'm not saying this topic is not without merit.
What is the law? and what is BL policy on following it?
Rule #13 "General Compliance with Laws:
You shall comply with all applicable laws, statutes, ordinances and regulations
regarding your use of our service and your listing, purchase and sale of items."
That means, in no uncertain way, that you should follow the law.
Unfair? possibly, fix the law if you don't like it. Until then....
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| | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Oct 27, 2015 05:07 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 64 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Master_Jedi_Rob writes:
| | In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
* Oh No!, Not Again! *
Perhaps a BL FAQ of the things that have been dead horse whipped, their lack
of resolution, some more dead horse whipping.
I'm not saying this topic is not without merit.
What is the law? and what is BL policy on following it?
Rule #13 "General Compliance with Laws:
You shall comply with all applicable laws, statutes, ordinances and regulations
regarding your use of our service and your listing, purchase and sale of items."
That means, in no uncertain way, that you should follow the law.
Unfair? possibly, fix the law if you don't like it. Until then....
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And since every seller agree with this when signing in, this rules is implied
in every seller/store's terms. Then the "buyer don't comply with store
terms" may already fit the cancellation reason in this case.
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| | | | | Author: | ToriHada | | Posted: | Nov 17, 2015 00:17 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 87 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
I was checking through eBay's listing rules and came across this interesting
little blurb clearly noting what eBay thinks and does about customs fraud. From
a section of eBay's Help Desk dealing with "encouraging illegal activity":
"Policy Overview
For a safer buying and selling experience on eBay, we don't allow selling
or linking to items that encourage, promote, facilitate, or instruct others to
engage in illegal activity.
We also don't allow buyers to ask sellers to break any laws. For example,
buyers can't ask sellers to falsify customs declarations or have an item
marked as "gift" in order to avoid customs fees.
...
Reporting a violation
If you find a listing that encourages illegal activity, you can report it.
If you sold an item and your buyer asks you to commit customs fraud, you can
report it."
(with the words in bold being an actual link to report such things to eBay).
See:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/encouraging-illegal-activity.html
I don't see why BrickLink cannot have a similar policy.
Thor
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| | | | | | | Author: | connie | | Posted: | Nov 17, 2015 00:54 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 64 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
I was checking through eBay's listing rules and came across this interesting
little blurb clearly noting what eBay thinks and does about customs fraud. From
a section of eBay's Help Desk dealing with "encouraging illegal activity":
"Policy Overview
For a safer buying and selling experience on eBay, we don't allow selling
or linking to items that encourage, promote, facilitate, or instruct others to
engage in illegal activity.
We also don't allow buyers to ask sellers to break any laws. For example,
buyers can't ask sellers to falsify customs declarations or have an item
marked as "gift" in order to avoid customs fees.
...
Reporting a violation
If you find a listing that encourages illegal activity, you can report it.
If you sold an item and your buyer asks you to commit customs fraud, you can
report it."
(with the words in bold being an actual link to report such things to eBay).
See:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/encouraging-illegal-activity.html
I don't see why BrickLink cannot have a similar policy.
Thor
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The reporting of it is no good if nothing is done. We had this happen two years
ago. A buyer in the UK asked us to change the customs form. We said no. Upon
receiving the package he first wrote us a nasty letter and then gave us a negative.
He was reported to ebay with his e-mails to us. I don't know if ebay did
anything to him but they sure would not remove our negative from him.
Connie
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| | | | | | | Author: | legoman77 | | Posted: | Nov 17, 2015 01:08 | | Subject: | Re: Customs fraud | | Viewed: | 85 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, fosterbengoshi writes:
| | In Suggestions, Pokernut writes:
| | There are a lot people out there, it seems, that want sellers to commit customs
fraud.
Would it be a good idea if BL included " Buyer requested customs fraud " in the
reasons for seller to cancel an order?
Not allowing said alledged fraudster to feedback the seller would prevent retaliatory
actions from the buyer would also be nice in this instance
|
I was checking through eBay's listing rules and came across this interesting
little blurb clearly noting what eBay thinks and does about customs fraud. From
a section of eBay's Help Desk dealing with "encouraging illegal activity":
"Policy Overview
For a safer buying and selling experience on eBay, we don't allow selling
or linking to items that encourage, promote, facilitate, or instruct others to
engage in illegal activity.
We also don't allow buyers to ask sellers to break any laws. For example,
buyers can't ask sellers to falsify customs declarations or have an item
marked as "gift" in order to avoid customs fees.
...
Reporting a violation
If you find a listing that encourages illegal activity, you can report it.
If you sold an item and your buyer asks you to commit customs fraud, you can
report it."
(with the words in bold being an actual link to report such things to eBay).
See:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/encouraging-illegal-activity.html
I don't see why BrickLink cannot have a similar policy.
Thor
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I have supported that idea for years. BL will not do it. It is a black mark
on BL for being a part of customs fraud. Everyone that asked me to do this,
asked through the BL message system, so they have a record if they cared to look.
I consider BL a partner in attempted fraud for doing nothing about fraud for
so many years. It leaves the problem for sellers to deal with and they have
enough headaches as it is. Also an advantage is given to those sellers that
do this.
Could it be profits that motivates BL's lack of genuine concern?
Foster, this is the one thing we see eye to eye on. Scary is it not?
John P
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United Kingdom, Scotland
USA, Texas
United Kingdom, England
Netherlands, Utrecht
Canada, Ontario
Denmark
Germany, Hessen
France, Grand Est
