|
 |
| | | Author: | RobErNat  | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 06:45 | | Subject: | EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 316 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | | Status: | Open | | Vote: | [Yes|No] | |
|
| Posting this on behalve of the many 'consumers' (customers) who might
not be aware there are new EU directives regarding distant selling.
This post is also directed towards all sellers making things simple for themselves
and charge a (blatantly)5% (or more)to **all** of their customers.
The new directives can be found below, and each EU country is supposed to have
put this in a National Law (if not yet, probably soon).
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32011L0083&rid=1
important in this regards is:
Article 19
Fees for the use of means of payment
Member States shall prohibit traders from charging consumers,
in respect of the use of a given means of payment, fees that
exceed the cost borne by the trader for the use of such mean
It technicly means, if the actual cost (charge by PP) is 3.4 or 3.6 or 4%, that
as a seller you simply cannot charge more then what PP charges you, so
any seller continuing doing so is acting against the law.
I kindly suggest all those sellers to review PP tables in those regards and adjust
the store terms (in regards to those charges), as acting against the Law might
hurt your business.
I would invite all buyers who are noticing this to contact the sellers they are
dealing with and point out to this new directive. For local laws around it (EU
countries), one should check official documentation from his/her country, these
can usually be found online.
Now I'm posting this as a suggestion for 2 reasons:
1. So the post won't get purged after 6 months.
2. Bricklink should help to enforce this of EU sellers and the ones that keep
acting against it (after a transit period and preferably with warning) should
simply be shut down.
Cheers, Eric
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 06:51 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 66 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| These rules you refer to, apply to commercial business only as far as I can follow
it through. So this might only be applied to those.
As all sellers and buyers alike we are expected to operate within the law.
So either we should implement ALL laws from ALL countries BL has members from,
or there's a general rule that we all stick to the local laws from the country
the seller is based in. No need to add some specific rules and leave others out.
It's either ALL or NOTHING....
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 06:59 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | These rules you refer to, apply to commercial business only as far as I can follow
it through. So this might only be applied to those.
|
That is most likely correct, allthough the directive speaks of 'traders'
The definition of 'trader' is:
‘trader’ means any natural person or any legal person,
irrespective of whether privately or publicly owned, who
is acting, including through any other person acting in his
name or on his behalf, for purposes relating to his trade,
business, craft or profession in relation to contracts
covered by this Directive
Wether that includes private sellers (hobbiests) would need to be answered by
someone who has more knowledge of Laws.
| |
As all sellers and buyers alike we are expected to operate within the law.
So either we should implement ALL laws from ALL countries BL has members from,
or there's a general rule that we all stick to the local laws from the country
the seller is based in. No need to add some specific rules and leave others out.
It's either ALL or NOTHING....
|
Briclink expects all sellers and buyers to act upon their local law, nothing
changes, EU sellers just need to adapt their charges, based on actual costs (PP
has these displayed)
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:00 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 59 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | These rules you refer to, apply to commercial business only as far as I can follow
it through. So this might only be applied to those.
|
that is an "excuse" made by many sellers on this site. In most EU contries I
believe consumers are protected by these laws if the seller buys goods specifically
to resell (whether that is his main business or not, or makes a profit or not).
If you ask the Trading Standards office here to define that they will tell you
it applies to anyone who is "trading" which simply means buying goods with the
intent to resell.
| | As all sellers and buyers alike we are expected to operate within the law.
So either we should implement ALL laws from ALL countries BL has members from,
or there's a general rule that we all stick to the local laws from the country
the seller is based in. No need to add some specific rules and leave others out.
It's either ALL or NOTHING....
|
that would be nice and fair
Robert
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 06:53 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | Incorrect article? Where is art. 19 regarding payments? |
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:01 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | Incorrect article? Where is art. 19 regarding payments?
|
Chapter III page L304/8
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:02 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Made me adjust my PP costs anyway. I was way over the current table of costs
at the PP site. Thanks for pointing me to that!
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:06 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | Made me adjust my PP costs anyway. I was way over the current table of costs
at the PP site. Thanks for pointing me to that!
|
Nice 
But...
If I buy from you and apply what PP tells me
PayPal charges sellers a fee of between 1,7% and 3,4% of the total sale plus
€0,35 EUR per transaction within the Euro zone.
Then you're still cooked 
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:10 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Mmm, checking
| | If I buy from you and apply what PP tells me
PayPal charges sellers a fee of between 1,7% and 3,4% of the total sale plus
€0,35 EUR per transaction within the Euro zone.
Then you're still cooked
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:17 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| VS, Canada, Europa I**
0,5% = balance payment
3,9% + vaste kosten = credit cards
That's for Belgium sellers receiving payments from for instance Holland.
Correct?
Or am I looking at the wrong tables?
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Brettj666 | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 09:32 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | VS, Canada, Europa I**
0,5% = balance payment
3,9% + vaste kosten = credit cards
That's for Belgium sellers receiving payments from for instance Holland.
Correct?
Or am I looking at the wrong tables?
|
So, are you saying if I buy from you, your PayPal fee, which you pass onto me
BEFORE I pay is variable depending on the source of money?
If I pay from a balance transfer, you pay less in fees, if I pay from a credit
card, you pay more ?
What about a bank account?
If you've charged me 3.4% but only pay .5% then a) do you notice and b) are
you actually refunding people ?
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | paulvdb | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 10:04 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Brettj666 writes:
| | In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | VS, Canada, Europa I**
0,5% = balance payment
3,9% + vaste kosten = credit cards
That's for Belgium sellers receiving payments from for instance Holland.
Correct?
Or am I looking at the wrong tables?
|
So, are you saying if I buy from you, your PayPal fee, which you pass onto me
BEFORE I pay is variable depending on the source of money?
If I pay from a balance transfer, you pay less in fees, if I pay from a credit
card, you pay more ?
What about a bank account?
If you've charged me 3.4% but only pay .5% then a) do you notice and b) are
you actually refunding people ?
|
That is only for personal payments. The fees for payments for goods do not depend
on the source of the money. As mentioned in another post the poster had not noticed
that that was the table for personal payments.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | paulvdb | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 10:07 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | VS, Canada, Europa I**
0,5% = balance payment
3,9% + vaste kosten = credit cards
That's for Belgium sellers receiving payments from for instance Holland.
Correct?
Or am I looking at the wrong tables?
|
As was already mentioned, that is the table for personal payments. But the fees
for payment for goods are the same as for personal payment with credit cards.
But don't forget what is posted below the table: "Opmerking: internationale
betalingen in euro of Zweedse kroon tussen rekeningen die zijn geregistreerd
in de Europese Unie of de Europese Economische Ruimte worden, wat kosten betreft,
behandeld als binnenlandse betalingen bij het toepassen van kosten." This was
also discussed recently in another thread about Paypal fees. Payments in EUR
or SEK between countries in the EU or EEA are treated as domestic payments for
the calculation of fees.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:20 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Ah, these are the commercial rates.
I was looking at the personal rates.
As I am a hobbiest seller and not registered as a commercial user of PP, I think
the personal rates apply. Correct? Or does PP not distinguish between them?
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:25 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | Ah, these are the commercial rates.
I was looking at the personal rates.
As I am a hobbiest seller and not registered as a commercial user of PP, I think
the personal rates apply. Correct? Or does PP not distinguish between them?
|
Personal rates are only for 'personal transfers', transfer for goods
are 'commercial', regardless wether you have a personal, premier or business
account 
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:38 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | | Personal rates are only for 'personal transfers', transfer for goods
are 'commercial', regardless wether you have a personal, premier or business
account
|
Mmmm, that makes it even harder.
Just checked my last 8 payments on PP (USD and EUR, 5 different countries). Overall
fee is 5.6%. Ranging from a 3.6% to 8.1%.
How can you get a cost table implemented like that that can be explained and
maintained as well?
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 08:25 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 24 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | | | Personal rates are only for 'personal transfers', transfer for goods
are 'commercial', regardless wether you have a personal, premier or business
account
|
Mmmm, that makes it even harder.
Just checked my last 8 payments on PP (USD and EUR, 5 different countries). Overall
fee is 5.6%. Ranging from a 3.6% to 8.1%.
How can you get a cost table implemented like that that can be explained and
maintained as well?
|
How about you set 3 or 4 zones
1 zone 3%
1 zone 3.5%
1 zone 4%
1 zone 5%
buyer always wins a little compared to your actual cost, you don't charge
more then allowed (so ok for local laws) and it makes things simple for your
customers
yes you'll loose a bit on the transactions, but are you so strongheaded and
determined to charge your customers every single cent their order costs you 
You should be happy you get orders from customers, treat them well and in an
honest way, overcharging them with costs won't help your future business
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:12 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| According to my table that's for credit card payments through PP, not balance.
Or am I wrong here?
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Remko100 | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:39 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Pffff,
confusing table. IF I get it right I can charge 3,9%+fixed fee for US/Canadian
buyers. Now I charge 3,5%+fixed. But if buyer pays with paypalcredit of credit/debitcard
I can't tell (1% without fixed), so how do I know what to charge then?
Remko
In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | According to my table that's for credit card payments through PP, not balance.
Or am I wrong here?
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:26 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, RobErNat writes:
| | Posting this on behalve of the many 'consumers' (customers) who might
not be aware there are new EU directives regarding distant selling.
This post is also directed towards all sellers making things simple for themselves
and charge a (blatantly)5% (or more)to **all** of their customers.
The new directives can be found below, and each EU country is supposed to have
put this in a National Law (if not yet, probably soon).
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32011L0083&rid=1
important in this regards is:
Article 19
Fees for the use of means of payment
Member States shall prohibit traders from charging consumers,
in respect of the use of a given means of payment, fees that
exceed the cost borne by the trader for the use of such mean
It technicly means, if the actual cost (charge by PP) is 3.4 or 3.6 or 4%, that
as a seller you simply cannot charge more then what PP charges you, so
any seller continuing doing so is acting against the law.
I kindly suggest all those sellers to review PP tables in those regards and adjust
the store terms (in regards to those charges), as acting against the Law might
hurt your business.
I would invite all buyers who are noticing this to contact the sellers they are
dealing with and point out to this new directive. For local laws around it (EU
countries), one should check official documentation from his/her country, these
can usually be found online.
Now I'm posting this as a suggestion for 2 reasons:
1. So the post won't get purged after 6 months.
2. Bricklink should help to enforce this of EU sellers and the ones that keep
acting against it (after a transit period and preferably with warning) should
simply be shut down.
Cheers, Eric
|
Thanks Eric.
I have been messaging some sellers about this for quite a while by now. Results?
Exactly as one would guess.
What they dont understand is that this is for their own good. And also for the
better image of BrickLink.
Some change their terms immediately, while some kindly let me know that it is
not my business. Or not so kindly, for that matter
I recently got tired of this. The next thing I will do is I *will* send notifications
to PayPal, then Seller's respective country Law authorities, and also see
if I can find an EU institution to address. Will also let all these parties know
what parties have been notified, and that action *is* expected.
This is mainly to see if these institutions (and PayPal) care.
Dear sellers - sorry if you will get caught up in this. First I will test this
on the ones who were... not so kind in replying to my messages and still have
"convenient" PP fees in your ToS. You still have time to change your terms, or
wait and see what happends and have yourself to blame.
Dear BrickLink - perhaps you could relieve me from this, by enforcing this EU
law? Not having my hopes too high here though. I have already had this brought
up previous year though, with BL not bothering as mush as to even comment on
this.
Back then I asked to *at least* send a notification email to all sellers and
let them know about this law. My request was refused by the powers that be.
*sigh*
Lukas
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:34 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | Dear BrickLink - perhaps you could relieve me from this, by enforcing this EU
law? Not having my hopes too high here though. I have already had this brought
up previous year though, with BL not bothering as mush as to even comment on
this.
Back then I asked to *at least* send a notification email to all sellers and
let them know about this law. My request was refused by the powers that be.
*sigh*
Lukas
|
Lukas, things like this need to be repeated and my post was also to make buyers
aware, if more buyers send messages to sellers, maybe more sellers will adjust...
I will simply do so on every order I place (or in case I'd clear a cart for
that reason just as well) if I notice the seller is charging me more then what
it costs them. Simple.
Doesn't mean I wouldn't proceed on the order, but at least the warning
was made.
And I do believe Bricklink should help to enforce it, reason I used the 'suggestion'
topic and not a random 'general' message.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:36 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Q: what made you the crusader of EU law?
Just curious .....
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:45 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | Q: what made you the crusader of EU law?
Just curious .....
|
A: Because I always obey all the laws *to the letter*, of course
Also because I can not stand people who are immune to reasoning.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:57 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 27 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | | A: Because I always obey all the laws *to the letter*, of course
Also because I can not stand people who are immune to reasoning.
|
Ouch, if that is serious, you're in a living hell ... 
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 08:02 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | | | A: Because I always obey all the laws *to the letter*, of course
Also because I can not stand people who are immune to reasoning.
|
Ouch, if that is serious, you're in a living hell ...
|
Yep, pretty hot down here
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:51 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 29 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | Q: what made you the crusader of EU law?
Just curious .....
|
Tired of paying unreasonable PP fees I guess
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 07:44 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // Advice of PP-fee-less operate | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Might this be an option:
- calculate 10% fee
- receive payment
- refund any overcalculated fee after payment was received
Or will this alse affect the percentage and therefor costs made?
Man, thinking about this might even get me PP-fee-less in the near future. But
at higher item prices? Is that what most PP-fee-less sellers do? Help me out
with some GOOD advice people....
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 08:01 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // Advice of PP-fee-less operate | | Viewed: | 24 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | Might this be an option:
- calculate 10% fee
- receive payment
- refund any overcalculated fee after payment was received
Or will this alse affect the percentage and therefor costs made?
|
It woudld be a mess I think.
| |
Man, thinking about this might even get me PP-fee-less in the near future.
|
Now you're talking
| | But at higher item prices? Is that what most PP-fee-less sellers do? Help me out
with some GOOD advice people....
|
A little higher maybe yes, but think of all those buyers that come into your
store and see those 4.2-5.0-7.0 % and leave your store. Then think about what
happens if those same customers come to your store and see 0%, I'm sure they
will accept 1 cent more on a 8 cent part, and so you'll make 10% extra compared
to sellers who charge a fee
It's psychological...
In many cases I see stores with higher pricing and they still charge a PP fee,
never get that, it is reason n°1 for me to leave a store.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | hard | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 08:28 | | Subject: | (Cancelled) | | Viewed: | 19 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | (Cancelled) |
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 08:29 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // Advice of PP-fee-less operate | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, RobErNat writes:
| | In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | Might this be an option:
- calculate 10% fee
- receive payment
- refund any overcalculated fee after payment was received
Or will this alse affect the percentage and therefor costs made?
|
It woudld be a mess I think.
| |
Man, thinking about this might even get me PP-fee-less in the near future.
|
Now you're talking
| | But at higher item prices? Is that what most PP-fee-less sellers do? Help me out
with some GOOD advice people....
|
A little higher maybe yes, but think of all those buyers that come into your
store and see those 4.2-5.0-7.0 % and leave your store. Then think about what
happens if those same customers come to your store and see 0%, I'm sure they
will accept 1 cent more on a 8 cent part, and so you'll make 10% extra compared
to sellers who charge a fee
It's psychological...
In many cases I see stores with higher pricing and they still charge a PP fee,
never get that, it is reason n°1 for me to leave a store.
|
Well, as a store with high pricing *and* PP fees..
In my specific case - I am operating under the limit for having to register as
a VAT payer. I am very close.
It means that I have a 12-month running limit of how much income I can receive,
before having to register as a VAT payer.
What that means is that I must do what I can in order to maximize my profit
out of it. One of the ways to do it is to give my customers an incentive to use
alternative payment options, which do not artificially inflate my income but
do not increase my profit.
So I am offering 0% IBAN fees, to motivate my buyers to choose this option. Until
recently I used to have 2 EUR flat fee for IBAN (my actual expenses were 2.32
EUR), but now that Lithuania has joined EURO-zone that fee has been waived.
Observations? My buyers are now opting for IBAN much more often, since I stopped
charging the 2 EUR flat fee. I proves that buyers are quite sensitive to fees.
Any flaws in my logic?
Sure. I am probably losing more sales/money by having PP fees, compared to if
I raised my prices by a few %.
But at the same time, I am pricing my parts by comparative pricing across the
PriceGuide among large(r) sellers. There is no PayPal fees info in the PriceGuide,
so I can not adjust my pricing to that. So I am just biting the bullet on this
one..
Ultimately, I would favor 0 fees policy. No fees of any kind, with only basic
shipping tables allowed. Would make it much easier for buyers, and improve the
reputation of BrickLink a lot.
That, or an adapted price guide where buyers would see prices depending on their
+ seller's settings (if sellers charge PP, the fee is dynamically calculated
into the price depending on buyer's location).
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | hard | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 08:34 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // Advice of PP-fee-less operate | | Viewed: | 23 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| I don't understand the table. But I found this. In your paypal account go
to: Merchant Tools - Transaction Fees - View cross-border transaction fees.
Put the country you want to send and it gets your fee automatically.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 09:04 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // Advice of PP-fee-less operate | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | Ultimately, I would favor 0 fees policy. No fees of any kind, with only basic
shipping tables allowed. Would make it much easier for buyers, and improve the
reputation of BrickLink a lot.
That, or an adapted price guide where buyers would see prices depending on their
+ seller's settings (if sellers charge PP, the fee is dynamically calculated
into the price depending on buyer's location).
|
Lucas, what is going to happen when BL implements autocheckout with autopayment
(march I believe). Do you really think they are going to create 5 different predetermined
boxes for extra fees that the seller can use to set fees? Doubtfull... Sellers
will need to predetermine their costs, add it in shipping and handling, period.
Buyers are getting used to the checkout and 'pay right away' method,
most sites work like that (Amazon, Ebay, to name a few), over and done with.
What a buyer wants, is to see full costs in advance (and I can tell from the
competition site), decides wether or not it is his budget, checks out and pays
and is done with it. That's the way it goes on the net.
Sellers who adopt to this method will have the advantage over those who don't,
sellers who charge (or add them in their shipping and handling) high fees will
be disadvantaged compared to their neighbour seller who doesn't, because
the buyers will have 2, 3 or more carts and they'll choose the seller
with the best overall deal. Pure and simple. What needs to change on BL is that
'inconsistancy' between sellers from all over the world and also the
mentality(*)of many sellers, particulary in the EU...
BO's owner understood, and his methods for building BO where with that idea.
You know what? It works
(*)signification:
Dear customers, it is a priveledge for you that you where able to visit my store
and fill your cart and checkout, however, just for doing so, I will charge you
PP fees, because I the seller, will not cover those for you, the heck I will
not and as a buyer you need to be reasonable and simply accept that fact, as
PP is not cheap (whining) and I want to make more money...
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 09:39 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // Advice of PP-fee-less operate | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, RobErNat writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | Ultimately, I would favor 0 fees policy. No fees of any kind, with only basic
shipping tables allowed. Would make it much easier for buyers, and improve the
reputation of BrickLink a lot.
That, or an adapted price guide where buyers would see prices depending on their
+ seller's settings (if sellers charge PP, the fee is dynamically calculated
into the price depending on buyer's location).
|
Lucas, what is going to happen when BL implements autocheckout with autopayment
(march I believe). Do you really think they are going to create 5 different predetermined
boxes for extra fees that the seller can use to set fees? Doubtfull... Sellers
will need to predetermine their costs, add it in shipping and handling, period.
Buyers are getting used to the checkout and 'pay right away' method,
most sites work like that (Amazon, Ebay, to name a few), over and done with.
What a buyer wants, is to see full costs in advance (and I can tell from the
competition site), decides wether or not it is his budget, checks out and pays
and is done with it. That's the way it goes on the net.
Sellers who adopt to this method will have the advantage over those who don't,
sellers who charge (or add them in their shipping and handling) high fees will
be disadvantaged compared to their neighbour seller who doesn't, because
the buyers will have 2, 3 or more carts and they'll choose the seller
with the best overall deal. Pure and simple. What needs to change on BL is that
'inconsistancy' between sellers from all over the world and also the
mentality(*)of many sellers, particulary in the EU...
BO's owner understood, and his methods for building BO where with that idea.
You know what? It works
|
It would be a long talk if we were to start comparing BL vs BO
If BL will implement the auto check-out system THE RIGHT WAY, where the
cost of shipping will be determined by each seller's personal settings (which
depend on his country's post office size / weight / thickness requirements),
then adding a feature to auto-calculate payment/lot fees will be a piece of cake
Judging from what we have seen so far, I do not even dare to tell you what I
think are the chances of that happening.
I am worried about it. I just dont see how in the world it is possible for BL
to get it right, if they continue doing everything the same way as up until now.
I.E. - implementing ideas of someone who has no clue what they are doing, and
with total disregard to consequences. Treating BL like a sandbox.
The new "update" to the design for example. No one cares, no one is responsible
for the screw-up, and no one is listening to what experienced buyers and sellers
have to say.
Has someone been lucky enough to meet the staff at one of the events (in US?).
Good for you. I dont want to turn this into yet one more US-EU heat, but more
"US thinking" is not what BL needs today.
Now if to get back to the topic... yes, sellers will have to adapt to whatever
BL decides to do. But what can tell you is that I am opening a store at BO in
the nearest future, and it is solely because of what has/has not been done to
BL in the recent past.
Have someone asked me a year ago, I would have challenged their sanity if they
told me that I will be opening a store at BO.
| | (*)signification:
Dear customers, it is a priveledge for you that you where able to visit my store
and fill your cart and checkout, however, just for doing so, I will charge you
PP fees, because I the seller, will not cover those for you, the heck I will
not and as a buyer you need to be reasonable and simply accept that fact, as
PP is not cheap (whining) and I want to make more money...
|
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | therobo | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 09:33 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, RobErNat writes:
Hi Eric,
as you have pointed out, each EU country has to implement it in national law(s)
and/or regulations.
Can you please elaborate which countries already have implemented this EU rule
from 2011?
EU directives are not binding for any individual, they are only binding for the
28 member states. So your post is somehow theoretical and academic.
As for BrickLink enforcing these national laws, do you expect BrickLink to hire
lawyers in each of the 28 EU member states to examine the national laws and then
checking payment terms of 8794 EU BrickLink stores?
BrickLink acts only as a venue and is not involved in transactions.
Check #3 of the TOS:
http://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=1919
Upon registration all sellers have already agreed on #13 of the TOS to comply
with all applicable laws and regulations.
Now, if you want to complain about specific store terms *you* would have to show
proof that the seller(s) in question violate the respective law(s) of the
seller's country for which you most likely would need an attorney.
Keep also in mind that payment transaction costs may not only include the PP
fees but also bookeeping costs. In case of an complaint it would be up to sellers
to show proof how their specific costs add up (if already regulated by local
laws).
For clarification:
I do not in any way want to defend sellers who charge more than the actual fees
but rather want to point out how difficult it is to judge about specific terms.
I have always tried to calculate most accurate fees, specified by buyer location
- which is not quite easy, as PP fees are calculated on the whole payment and
not only on order and shipping costs - but I'm fully aware about EU sellers
who charge a "flat" PP fee.
Btw. PP fees differ in different EU countries, for example German PP fees are
different than Dutch PP fees.
Ronald
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 11:31 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, therobo writes:
| | In Suggestions, RobErNat writes:
Hi Eric,
as you have pointed out, each EU country has to implement it in national law(s)
and/or regulations.
Can you please elaborate which countries already have implemented this EU rule
from 2011?
EU directives are not binding for any individual, they are only binding for the
28 member states. So your post is somehow theoretical and academic.
As for BrickLink enforcing these national laws, do you expect BrickLink to hire
lawyers in each of the 28 EU member states to examine the national laws and then
checking payment terms of 8794 EU BrickLink stores?
BrickLink acts only as a venue and is not involved in transactions.
Check #3 of the TOS:
http://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=1919
Upon registration all sellers have already agreed on #13 of the TOS to comply
with all applicable laws and regulations.
Now, if you want to complain about specific store terms *you* would have to show
proof that the seller(s) in question violate the respective law(s) of the
seller's country for which you most likely would need an attorney.
Keep also in mind that payment transaction costs may not only include the PP
fees but also bookeeping costs. In case of an complaint it would be up to sellers
to show proof how their specific costs add up (if already regulated by local
laws).
For clarification:
I do not in any way want to defend sellers who charge more than the actual fees
but rather want to point out how difficult it is to judge about specific terms.
I have always tried to calculate most accurate fees, specified by buyer location
- which is not quite easy, as PP fees are calculated on the whole payment and
not only on order and shipping costs - but I'm fully aware about EU sellers
who charge a "flat" PP fee.
Btw. PP fees differ in different EU countries, for example German PP fees are
different than Dutch PP fees.
Ronald
|
Fully agree on some of the things you pointed out, and no BL cannot put a lawyer
in each country. But it can examine the store terms of sellers in case of complaints,
the PP tables are visible for them as well, and yes, I am aware German PP fees
differ from others. But that's beside the point, point is that each seller
would need to calculate for him(her)self, based on the country he(she)is located
(if that country already published the Law) and where the buyer is from.
In some contries there are already that law, and in others they will come soon,
as that is what the EU directive of mid 2014 expects (allthough indeed it was
already written in 2011): That seller can't charge more, he/she can charge
exact, or less, simple.
In regards to bookkeeping costs, yes, that could be part of a charge, but then
it cannot be called a 'PP' fee, or the seller can't either hind behind
it by saying: it's not just the PP fee, it also contains bookkeeping costs,
possible, but then the seller will need to call it differently
That BL requests from sellers to comply with local laws is clear, but when does
BL step in, in case of complaints? When does it remind sellers they need to?
As Lukas pointed out, they (the admins) ignored his request, and so the problem
persists...
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | therobo | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 12:08 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 50 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, RobErNat writes:
| | In Suggestions, therobo writes:
| | In Suggestions, RobErNat writes:
Hi Eric,
as you have pointed out, each EU country has to implement it in national law(s)
and/or regulations.
Can you please elaborate which countries already have implemented this EU rule
from 2011?
EU directives are not binding for any individual, they are only binding for the
28 member states. So your post is somehow theoretical and academic.
As for BrickLink enforcing these national laws, do you expect BrickLink to hire
lawyers in each of the 28 EU member states to examine the national laws and then
checking payment terms of 8794 EU BrickLink stores?
BrickLink acts only as a venue and is not involved in transactions.
Check #3 of the TOS:
http://www.bricklink.com/help.asp?helpID=1919
Upon registration all sellers have already agreed on #13 of the TOS to comply
with all applicable laws and regulations.
Now, if you want to complain about specific store terms *you* would have to show
proof that the seller(s) in question violate the respective law(s) of the
seller's country for which you most likely would need an attorney.
Keep also in mind that payment transaction costs may not only include the PP
fees but also bookeeping costs. In case of an complaint it would be up to sellers
to show proof how their specific costs add up (if already regulated by local
laws).
For clarification:
I do not in any way want to defend sellers who charge more than the actual fees
but rather want to point out how difficult it is to judge about specific terms.
I have always tried to calculate most accurate fees, specified by buyer location
- which is not quite easy, as PP fees are calculated on the whole payment and
not only on order and shipping costs - but I'm fully aware about EU sellers
who charge a "flat" PP fee.
Btw. PP fees differ in different EU countries, for example German PP fees are
different than Dutch PP fees.
Ronald
|
Fully agree on some of the things you pointed out, and no BL cannot put a lawyer
in each country. But it can examine the store terms of sellers in case of complaints,
the PP tables are visible for them as well,
|
You think it's reasonable for BrickLink to check each country's PP fee
table and compare it to the local law of the seller?
Come on. It's up to the seller the comply with laws and regulations, and
not up to BrickLink to check each country's law and each country's PP
fees.
| | and yes, I am aware German PP fees
differ from others. But that's beside the point, point is that each seller
would need to calculate for him(her)self, based on the country he(she)is located
(if that country already published the Law) and where the buyer is from.
In some contries there are already that law, and in others they will come soon,
as that is what the EU directive of mid 2014 expects (allthough indeed it was
already written in 2011): That seller can't charge more, he/she can charge
exact, or less, simple.
|
You seem to imply that each country implements the EU directive in the same way.
In fact there are many different ways of implementation.
Germany for example has implemented it in a way that contract terms about inflated
payment fees are simply invalid, though the whole contract is not invalid.
It would be up to the BUYER to dispute the inflated fees either before buying
(which would them most likely let land on stoplists) or after buying (and any
known consequences, refund, stoplist, -FB etc.). Simply self-regulating as many
other things in BrickLink.
| |
In regards to bookkeeping costs, yes, that could be part of a charge, but then
it cannot be called a 'PP' fee, or the seller can't either hind behind
it by saying: it's not just the PP fee, it also contains bookkeeping costs,
possible, but then the seller will need to call it differently
That BL requests from sellers to comply with local laws is clear, but when does
BL step in, in case of complaints? When does it remind sellers they need to?
|
Again, BrickLink is not involved in transactions.
| | As Lukas pointed out, they (the admins) ignored his request, and so the problem
persists...
|
The whole cancellation process needs to be reviewed. Allowing buyers to unilaterally
cancel orders would could be misused, but actually there's no way for buyers
to dispute a rejected OCR for example for shipping fees to high or PP fees to
high (opening a can of worms...)
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | steekstra | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 10:15 | | Subject: | (Cancelled) | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | (Cancelled) |
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Jan 25, 2015 10:18 | | Subject: | Re: EU directive // For Sellers who charge PP% | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Denk dat ik je voorbeeld maar ga volgen.... Benieuwd of het echt kopers scheelt
zoals sommigen beweren
|
|
|
|
|
Belgium, Flemish Brabant
Netherlands, Gelderland
United Kingdom, England
Canada, Ontario
Lithuania, Panevėžys
Greece, North Aegean
Germany, Berlin